Bismuth in 45 Colt?

[oldsalt444]

Has anyone done any bismuth casting here? I'm getting a Uberti revolving carbine, which is a black powder gun. I'm also getting the 45 LC conversion cylinder. I'm toying with the idea of using it for deer hunting here in Commiefornia and they require use of non-toxic projectiles for all hunting. No lead period. I know RotoMetals has castable bismuth/tin ingots available. I have Lee molds for 45 ACP - 230 gr. RN, 200 gr. SWC H&G 68, and also tumble lube SWC. Just wondering if anyone has experience with this type of casting and what nuances to look out for. These loads would not exceed 850 FPS.

[Ozark mike]

Id like to know also probably expensive

[Drew P]

266896I’m playing around with lead free alloys at the moment and having some interesting findings. For one thing unlike lead which will shrink when it solidifies the bismuth tin alloys grow. So your bullets will be oversized by quite a lot. Also bismuth is not very strong and will crumble easily. So the tin is there to strengthen it. I’m up to almost 40% tin to get the results I am looking for but this adds a little bit of cost and also reduce his density. Bismuth has gotten a lot cheaper in recent years and now only like 6-8$/lb. You can also add a little bit of antimony to harden it.
My suspicion is that if you push these very hard they will come apart and disintegrate but I have nothing to base that on really. The neat thing about bismuth is that it’s very dense, almost as dense as lead so you can get quite good bullets out of it.

[fcvan]

Tin helps reduce the crumbly nature of the brittle Bismuth, and improves malleability of the alloy. Just as any oversize boolit, if it casts fat, it needs sizing.

Solid copper bullets still cost more than bismuth/tin boolits. I would still hunt with bismuth/tin for BP, BPC, or cast cartridges in CA, just to thumb my nose at the stupid idiots who don't realize that lead comes from the earth. Lead is only harmful if launched in your direction or used in pipes and paint. The crap they put in CA mix gas enters the streams and really pollutes, but they don't want to admit to their poison.

[Drew P]

Tin helps reduce the crumbly nature of the brittle Bismuth, and improves malleability of the alloy. Just as any oversize boolit, if it casts fat, it needs sizing.

Solid copper bullets still cost more than bismuth/tin boolits. I would still hunt with bismuth/tin for BP, BPC, or cast cartridges in CA, just to thumb my nose at the stupid idiots who don't realize that lead comes from the earth. Lead is only harmful if launched in your direction or used in pipes and paint. The crap they put in CA mix gas enters the streams and really pollutes, but they don't want to admit to their poison.
Lead is harmful in the food chain as it moves into the bodies of animals and upstream to, eventually, humans. So, I have to somewhat disagree. I’d rather have lead paint on my house than little bits of lead around my yard where my chickens can get to it. Certainly don’t support a ban on hunting with lead, just saying. That’s why I’m experimenting with it.

[Johnch]

I cast shot for duck and Goose hunting
As sometimes I use older shotguns that the barrels are not safe to shoot steel shot in
10% tin is the least you ever want to use in your alloy anything less and you will have the bullets crack , 20% is IMO the least I would hunt with
At 20% I still don't think the bullet will expand

I did some shot casting a few weeks ago and I used 25% and 30% tin
Because of the reduced weight of the bismuth / tin alloy
As you know the bullet will be reduced in weight
So I have found a somewhat reduced range is needed to be used
But at standard ranges IMO just use enough bullet weight and you should have no problems

I would cast a few bullets and see how they do
I would try shooting groups and into clay and wet newspaper to make sure they hold togeather

John

[Rizzo]

Has anyone done any bismuth casting here? I'm getting a Uberti revolving carbine, which is a black powder gun. I'm also getting the 45 LC conversion cylinder. I'm toying with the idea of using it for deer hunting here in Commiefornia and they require use of non-toxic projectiles for all hunting. No lead period. I know RotoMetals has castable bismuth/tin ingots available. I have Lee molds for 45 ACP - 230 gr. RN, 200 gr. SWC H&G 68, and also tumble lube SWC. Just wondering if anyone has experience with this type of casting and what nuances to look out for. These loads would not exceed 850 FPS.

I did some casting using Bismuth from RotoMetals.
Here is the link to my posts about what I did and found.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?388299-Bismuth-Tin-bullet-casting

[megasupermagnum]

I cast shot for duck and Goose hunting
As sometimes I use older shotguns that the barrels are not safe to shoot steel shot in
10% tin is the least you ever want to use in your alloy anything less and you will have the bullets crack , 20% is IMO the least I would hunt with
At 20% I still don't think the bullet will expand

I did some shot casting a few weeks ago and I used 25% and 30% tin
Because of the reduced weight of the bismuth / tin alloy
As you know the bullet will be reduced in weight
So I have found a somewhat reduced range is needed to be used
But at standard ranges IMO just use enough bullet weight and you should have no problems

I would cast a few bullets and see how they do
I would try shooting groups and into clay and wet newspaper to make sure they hold togeather

John

I've been dropping Bismuth shot, I think this is my 3rd year. I've been using 6% tin with 100% success, same as what you buy. I use sizes that pass through most of the time, but recovered shot is all perfect condition. I have never recovered a broken piece of shot.

It seems that casting bullets is another matter, and with the extreme amounts of tin people are going to, it doesn't seem all that great in that application. Bismuth works fantastic for #5, #4, and B size shot.

[Landy88]

It won't help with the original query; but using it in muzzleloaders in sabots or shotguns in either sabots or shot cups may be a way to use bismuth alloys by letting the plastic take the burden of the gas, heat, and rifling.

I've read of and seen some vids on zinc alloys being used, for another option; with some casting and sizing hurdles but good accuracy and impressive velocities.

With Cali Crazy very often spreading only slightly slower than a coronavirus and some lead sources drying up, you early experimenters are doing us all a favor.

[fcvan]

Lead is harmful in the food chain as it moves into the bodies of animals and upstream to, eventually, humans. So, I have to somewhat disagree. I’d rather have lead paint on my house than little bits of lead around my yard where my chickens can get to it. Certainly don’t support a ban on hunting with lead, just saying. That’s why I’m experimenting with it.

Nobody wants lead in their food, anymore than folks want lead in their bodies. I have several friends who have been shot, the projectile left in their bodies due to potential complications, and they do not suffer from lead oxide issues. Lead paint, huge problem, lead boolits or shot, not proven to be a problem. Too many wildlife researchers who could not substantiate the toxicity of lead shot or boolits. Do some research, don't buy the hype of researchers bent on banning firearms by way of ammunition bans.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

A former castboolit member did some experimenting and found that adding 0.75% Antimony to the Bismuth/tin mix was advantageous, I'm not smart enough to know why? Anyway, he had 'some' success and I think that is why rotometals started offering this alloy ( 87.25% Bismuth, 0.75% Antimony and 12% Tin).

https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free-bullet-casting-alloy-bismuth-based/

[onelight]

Man I feel sorry for you guys that live in California , sad days for casters there.
I hope that liberal disease doesn't spread east.

[Ozark mike]

Man I feel sorry for you guys that live in California , sad days for casters there.
I hope that liberal disease doesn't spread east.

Western Montana sure is feeling the effect of their stupidity

[bangerjim]

Casting 45's in Bi will yield boolits that are larger, lighter and probably a lot more expensive. But if you cannot use Pb in your area, ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do!

Let us know how it works for you.

I have several Bi alloys I use for different things, including one that melts at 145°F for reproducing antique pewter decorations on clock cases. You can cast it in rubber molds!

[Drew P]

I thought the whole reason bismuth and steel shot was invented was because they were finding high lead levels in ducks that frequent ponds used for hunting because they ate lead shot. Why is cali banning the practice of lead projectiles if that isn’t true?

[RogerDat]

I tried to sell some 58/42 Bi/Sn alloy awhile back with no takers. It is such a small segment of the reloading and casting hobby not a lot of information on it. Pretty expensive alloy to play around with too when compared to our tin and antimony alloys.

I do recall from Rotometals site that 12% tin was considered ideal, 88% bismuth, touch of antimony might have been added. With that bismuth at around $10 a pound, not a cheap alloy to play around with. On the other hand one doesn't cast up huge quantities of lead free bullets for hunting the same way one does for target practice.

I also recall using Bi/Sn with tin was a no go. Something about the lead alloyed to create a really low melting point or really soft alloy. Think it was low melting point. To the point where powder burn would melt it badly.

[bangerjim]

I tried to sell some 58/42 Bi/Sn alloy awhile back with no takers. It is such a small segment of the reloading and casting hobby not a lot of information on it. Pretty expensive alloy to play around with too when compared to our tin and antimony alloys.

I do recall from Rotometals site that 12% tin was considered ideal, 88% bismuth, touch of antimony might have been added. With that bismuth at around $10 a pound, not a cheap alloy to play around with. On the other hand one doesn't cast up huge quantities of lead free bullets for hunting the same way one does for target practice.

I also recall using Bi/Sn with tin was a no go. Something about the lead alloyed to create a really low melting point or really soft alloy. Think it was low melting point. To the point where powder burn would melt it badly.

The alloy I have melts at 145°F and I sure would NEVER use it for boolits! The powder charge could melt the back end before it got out of the barrel. And the barrel will heat up normally to higher temps that would only add to the problems.

The stuff I have is similar to Wood's metal but without and dangerous Cd in there. It was used at local aerospace factories for holding turbine blades and other sensitive metal components while machining and then easily melted down when done without disturbing any critical properties of the item being held.

Neat stuff......just not for casting boolits!!!!!!! A hot cup of coffee will melt a spoon cast out of the stuff.....to the surprise of the guest I give it to, telling them I hope they like REALLY strong coffee!!!!!!

[RogerDat]

The alloy I have melts at 145°F and I sure would NEVER use it for boolits! The powder charge could melt the back end before it got out of the barrel. And the barrel will heat up normally to higher temps that would only add to the problems.

The stuff I have is similar to Wood's metal but without and dangerous Cd in there. It was used at local aerospace factories for holding turbine blades and other sensitive metal components while machining and then easily melted down when done without disturbing any critical properties of the item being held.

Neat stuff......just not for casting boolits!!!!!!! A hot cup of coffee will melt a spoon cast out of the stuff.....to the surprise of the guest I give it to, telling them I hope they like REALLY strong coffee!!!!!! Sounds like a good reason to only drink from a fresh bottle at your house :-)

[rintinglen]

Just so you don't get your hopes up only to have your dreams crushed, only California Dept. of Fish and Wildlife certified lead-free bullets that are on their list are legal for hunting. No home made boolit or bullet qualifies. Thank you, MR. Barnes.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Mr. Barnes sold it years ago to a couple named Brooks I believe , who is to thank for the push to copper , barnes originals were heavy for caliber bullets and they discontinued them .

[oldsalt444]

Apparently, CA DFW has approved Roto Metals alloy. Just keep a copy of the approval letter and your receipt with you in the field.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0iJt6v2vYEcY2lYbHA2UEttTXVNZ2NXVWN0M0JRX3d5ZS1r/view

[Harter66]

Lead and waterfowl .
About 100 yr ago tests were done that determined that 6 #6 lead pellets would kill a 6# duck from lead poisoning in 6 days . Since it was the 1930s I seriously question the humane nature of the testing . Ref . The ducks, geese and swans of North America , by Francis H Kortright Toronto Canada , published by the American Wildlife Institute , Washington , DC 1943 . printed by the Telegraph Press Harrisburg PA . The article is found beginning on page 43 .

The science of the gut pile poisoning is flawed in that it's unlikely that any single Condor , 20# bird , would eat five but piles and be unfortunate enough to ingest all 5 150 gr bullet cores in small enough pieces that the digestion would break it down .

I digress .

My limited experience is with commercial shot the early heavier shot would crush and stay in the wad so the old standard 1-1/4 oz 12 ga delivered about 1/2-3/4 oz on target they had to add nearly 20% tin for #5&6 shot . Recently a guy on another forum worked some Bismuth sourced from Rotometals and ended up about 30% tin to get expansion . Bullets were lighter but not in the huge extreme a 200 gr mould should drop 185-190 gr . As I recall he was working with a 358 Win .

[44Blam]

Lead is harmful in the food chain as it moves into the bodies of animals and upstream to, eventually, humans. So, I have to somewhat disagree. I’d rather have lead paint on my house than little bits of lead around my yard where my chickens can get to it. Certainly don’t support a ban on hunting with lead, just saying. That’s why I’m experimenting with it.

I was about 25 before I ate duck that didn't have shot in it. I'm 44 now. I lived in Texas and my buddies and I would go out and shoot ducks and eat them... I always tell my doctor to test for heavy metals when they do blood work and they have never said I have a problem...

I honestly think you are a lot more likely to get lead poisoning from primers and using chemicals around lead. And our wildlife isn't really exposed to these things...

[Tonto]

So the lead shot killing ducks studies that brought us to the non-toxic shot and bullet issue today is rumored to be a little flawed but a done deal. The shot ingested by birds is ground up in their crops making even a small dose lethal. Elemental lead is relatively stable but lead reduced by grinding and digestive acids is a bad scene. Lead poisoning is by lead compounds mostly, oxidized and combined with other substancess that make it available and toxic. Early experiments with green ammo were failures as things like tungsten turned out to have their own problems. And we ll know about how the depleted uranium rounds worked out. I suspect more ducks die from flying into power lines or hit by cars but the almost century old data runs the lead ban show. Non-toxic alternatives should be sought but our friend lead has gotten a bad rap and that ship has sailed sadly.

[bangerjim]

Greenie Tree Kissers and Owl Huggers rule the roost in several states, especially in good ole Comifornia.


Sad

Oh....and do not forget the thousands of innocent birds killed by fast-moving giant windmill blades. Gotta love that green renewable energy.

[farmbif]

don't know anything about bismuth, but if California is so worried about poisons how the heck they they grow so much produce without tons and tons of agricultural chemicals.

[Drew P]

I was about 25 before I ate duck that didn't have shot in it. I'm 44 now. I lived in Texas and my buddies and I would go out and shoot ducks and eat them... I always tell my doctor to test for heavy metals when they do blood work and they have never said I have a problem...

I honestly think you are a lot more likely to get lead poisoning from primers and using chemicals around lead. And our wildlife isn't really exposed to these things...
As Tonto pointed out, a bit of shot in the meat of your supper isn’t the same thing as a chicken who lays eggs and might have eaten a lead pellet in my yard. Not saying it’s worse, might be better, but it’s not a straight line of comparison. Chickens eat gravel and keep it in their “crop” where it grinds up food for them. So, yes it could, be quite a bit worse for upstream animals that eat the eggs IF the eggs somehow condense the metal out of their system. I just figured it was a fun project with potential benefits of reducing toxic material flying around my yard. Of course that was before I learned that the stuff expands when cooling lol. That made it weird.

[sutherpride59]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19617495/
This is a much more recent article and fairly isn’t a wide study by any means but is considered a scholarly source. The basic idea is that ducks are idiots and will eat lead pellets. I don’t see the same issue with bullets as I’ve never seen a deer eat a rock or any other heavy object just laying in the ground similar to a bullet.

I haven’t played around with any of the green alloys as they call them but if you have some interesting results I would suggest posting a new thread. I will probably never use anything but lead but it would be an interesting read if it doesn’t get political.

[Rizzo]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19617495/
This is a much more recent article and fairly isn’t a wide study by any means but is considered a scholarly source. The basic idea is that ducks are idiots and will eat lead pellets. I don’t see the same issue with bullets as I’ve never seen a deer eat a rock or any other heavy object just laying in the ground similar to a bullet.


Interesting article.
It made me think about the lead in the ducks that are then eaten by the hunter/people.
I'd imagine over time, if you ate enough of "those" ducks it would be bad for you.

Regarding the deer issue, I believe the concern is if you use a lead bullet for the kill, then there is a chance that the bullet would be in the gut pile that other animals then would/could ingest the bullet.

Would one lead bullet be enough to have an effect on the animal that ate it?.....or would it just pass through it's system with minimal effect.
I don't know of any studies on this, but I doubt it.

[Landy88]

Regarding the deer issue, I believe the concern is if you use a lead bullet for the kill, then there is a chance that the bullet would be in the gut pile that other animals then would/could ingest the bullet.

Would one lead bullet be enough to have an effect on the animal that ate it?.....or would it just pass through it's system with minimal effect.
I don't know of any studies on this, but I doubt it.

In addition, how often does a bullet or, especially, a boolit remain in the gut pile, rather than pass completely through the animal to lodge harmlessly in a tree or the dirt.

I can't recall ever having a bullet not exit the animal - didn't shoot the biggest buck I've ever seen to avoid, also, killing the doe that seemed glued to his far side.

[RogerDat]

Seems to me if one had a copy of the Rotometals letter be sort of hard to accuse you in the field of being in violation if one was shooting home brewed lead free. At a trial you could have problems if you were not able to produce a bill of sale proving at least one lead free alloy purchase.

Shot in water fowl is not the same issue as bullet in gut pile is. Different process, different animals with different habits. I do understand that Condors have extremely strong gut acid. An individual bird may be less likely to eat a bullet in a gut pile but strong likelihood if they do they could absorb it. With so few of them around it sort of makes sense to do all one can to allow them a better chance at coming back by protecting them.

Ducks I have heard will eat shot. In some areas the hunting pressure is very high because ducks are stopping during migration to feed and rest. Lot of ducks, lot of hunter using shot. Have read different assessments of the impact that lead shot has on duck population. Some putting it higher and some lower. But it is what it is today. If it helps preserve waterfowl population that doesn't seem a bad thing. One can eat a lot of meat with a small amount of lead without it becoming an issue IF you don't eat it faster than you body can shed the lead being ingested. Duck eats a bunch of pellets seems like that might be absorbed faster than their duck bodies can shed the lead.

I'm sure I absorb some from primer dust, cleaning, casting, moving and sizing despite my best efforts to practice safe handling. Have a low lead reading that would only be of concern if I was a small child during rapid development that takes place in childhood. So I have a measurable amount of lead, it is small and tending to get smaller as every time I get tested and it is still up a small amount I take another look at my process to eliminate some contact. Pretty sure ducks and condors won't do that step to control their results.

[Drew P]

Right, I get it when it’s a duck pond where it basically rains lead shot for 12 hours a day every day for years. That’s a promise that any ducks who happen to make it to the surface will gobble some lead and maybe fly away before being blasted. This is the same reason I’m concerned with my pellet gun in my yard, because it’s not a random bullet once in a while it’s a target that has constant shooting and constant chickens who dig and scratch all around. I wouldn’t think Deer hunting would be a problem for condors But who knows these days.

[John in WYO]

Tin helps reduce the crumbly nature of the brittle Bismuth, and improves malleability of the alloy. Just as any oversize boolit, if it casts fat, it needs sizing.

The crap they put in CA mix gas enters the streams and really pollutes, but they don't want to admit to their poison.

I googled “mix gas” and only got examples mixing oil and gas for engines.

I guess I don’t understand what “...CA mix gas...” is.
Is this specific to CA?
How does the “crap“ get into streams?
Not trying to be argumentative. Open to learning something new.
Thanks.

[Harter66]

The California fuel mix or mix gas refers to the clean air additives . Took 30 yr to get a suit to stop the use of MTBE ..... appearently it's a much worse carcinogenic than the tetraeythel lead etc was , not in fuel blend amounts as an acute killer but lots of cancer around plants . So now all of the fuel has Methanol in it which eats fuel lines , pumps etc in higher percentages . Also poisonous but it'll wash out and dilute . The down side it that it all soaks up water when you have a big temp change the alcohol separates from the gas and the water falls out , then you pour in a can of HEET ....
Gasoline in California is only about 60% gasoline from oil the rest is buffers , additives and alcohol .

[John in WYO]

Thanks for explaining that.