Short barrel shotguns

[ChuckJaxFL]

I bought a 14” 11-87 not too long ago.

<<Original, off-topic and distracting, text deleted from here.>>


I broke my chrono recently. I’ll replace it soon. In the mean time, has anyone done any real testing in short barrels to see what powders are best suited for 14” barrels?

Seems with all the shockwaves & tac14’s that have hit the range recently, that someone should have wrung them out by now.



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[rking22]

Shockwaves and tac14s are pumps, they don’t care about the load. With an auto of that design I suspect they could be picky depending on how the shooter”handles” the recoil. With little mass and limp wristing a bit there could be malfunctions. I have had people having trouble with auto shooting skeet, I take their gun and ammo and have no issue. And that’s with a shoulder stock. Hold on to it like you mean it and see if it’s better.

[Petrol & Powder]

Is there a connection between that broken chronograph and that shot barreled shotgun :bigsmyl2: ?

[jdfoxinc]

The 11-87 is gas operated.

[centershot]

Yes, it's gas operated but it has 1/3 the mass of a full size gun and if you limp-wrist it the recoil spring won't get a full stroke.

[ChuckJaxFL]

Is there a connection between that broken chronograph and that shot barreled shotgun :bigsmyl2: ?

Nope. I actually did the damage with my 1894. I didn’t shoot it, but I was stupid enough to shoot close enough that the muzzle blast cracked the LCD display.


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[megasupermagnum]

I'm not familiar with the 11-87, but I have shot enough 1100's. I've shot some very light loads through them with no issue. A quick search shows that certain 11-87 barrels are made for different loads. Specifically the slug barrel is made only for slug loads, which are almost all very powerful. Maybe this is the case, but I would think the short barrels would be expected to shoot lower recoil ammo. I do know that the gas system on the Remingtons is not my favorite. It may do you good to give it a total cleaning, I think there is an o-ring or 2 that needs replacing now and then. Lighter springs may be in order, but do research on that first.

[Ozark mike]

My h&r 12ga 20 inch bbl uses the same oring that magnum is talking about although it is missing at this time it still cycles fine without it As long as it is well lubed if it gets dry it will not eject at all as soon as i replace that oring it should be fine again but no excuse for not oiling the action

[ChuckJaxFL]

Shockwaves and tac14s are pumps, they don’t care about the load. With an auto of that design I suspect they could be picky depending on how the shooter”handles” the recoil. With little mass and limp wristing a bit there could be malfunctions. I have had people having trouble with auto shooting skeet, I take their gun and ammo and have no issue. And that’s with a shoulder stock. Hold on to it like you mean it and see if it’s better.

I deny limp-shouldering it. It’s just not setup to handle low energy rounds. Don’t take my word for it. Here, scroll through some of these.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk02ihpOzXrNDZNlT-0PE-7cJv_i21g%3A1598551170311&source=hp&ei=gvRHX-6KEYH45gKKxoW4Ag&q=1187+low+recoil&oq=1187+low+recoil&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBADOgcIIxDqAhAnOgc ILhDqAhAnOgQIIxAnOgUIABCRAjoICAAQsQMQgwE6AggAOggIL hCxAxCDAToFCAAQsQM6BwgAEBQQhwI6BggAEBYQHjoFCCEQoAE 6BQghEKsCOgcIIRAKEKABUJUPWOQ4YJ09aAJwAHgAgAGUAogBv g-SAQYzLjEwLjKYAQCgAQGwAQ8&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp

I didn’t express my question very well, though. I’m not concerned about the cycling and, in hindsight, I should have just left that out of the conversation. Every manufacturer recommended, straight-from-the-website, handload cycles perfectly. Also, “cheap” buckshot works perfectly. Hunting loads work perfectly. It only chokes on expensive “tactical” stuff. That problem is easy enough to not have.


What I’m actually wondering if anyone has done the homework to see if our favorite heavy 12 powders (Blue Dot, Longshot, etc) give up much velocity when we go from 28” barrels to a 14”, or if there’s really not a lot of difference. 25 grains of Unique works 100% under 9x00B. If switching to Blue Dot or Longshot or anything else doesn’t give me any better performance, I don’t see any sense in keeping both powders on hand.

For what it’s worth, I’ve another chrony enroute. If no one else has done so, and if there’s any interest here, maybe I’ll take my 14” and one of the full-size guns out and compare & contrast the same ammo through both and report back.


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[Petrol & Powder]

The "tactical" loads are often low recoil loads, which may seem a bit counter-intuitive at first. They are intended to reduce recoil and help get the shooter back on target quicker.

As for the 11-87, I had one years ago and it was a decent auto loader but I never really warmed up to it. It is basically an improved 1100, with a slightly better gas system.

There are really only a handful of operating systems when it comes to semi-auto shotguns: long recoil (such as the Browning Auto-5, Franchi AL-48 or Remington 11-48) , Gas operated (such as the Remington 11-87, the Beretta 300 series and many others) or inertia operated (such as the Benelli )

They all have pros & cons

[megasupermagnum]

It depends on what you you are looking for as far as what you consider increased performance. If what you are looking for is heavy payloads, say 12 pellet 00 buckshot, then Bluedot is what you want. If you want speed, then something like 8 pellet with Longshot might be the way to go. If you want a tight pattern, then just about anything can work, and you would want to look into buffered load data.

There are millions of shotguns out there with 18 1/2" to 20" barrels. 14" won't be far behind those as far as velocities.

[Hogtamer]

I suspect the use of faster powders like clays or 700x ill produce a much cleaner burn in a shorty.

[Ozark mike]

Might produce a clean burn but where is the pressure spike in the curve

[rking22]

Pressure peak is within a few inches of the breech with any approximate powder, need enough gas volume at the ports to operate the mechanism. Slower powders make more gas’s and hold a higher port pressure, at the expense of more muzzle blast and therefore recoil. I have looked at getting a tac14 to play with, would shoot 1 oz target loads in it. If I wanted buckshot it would be standard hunting loads. Suspect the same would work in the 11-87. I have no chron data for shotguns, not my cup a tea, pattern is what counts for me.

Powders I would use would be green dot and unique, both are middle of the road for a 12 and cycle most all sim is fine. If I do a tac14 it will get 700x and titewad, for less muzzleblast. Things are loud at 18, I bet 14 ain’t any less so!

[farmbif]

I understand what the question is but not sure of the answer ,shooting the same 170 grain load my 26" barreled 30-30 will have higher velocity than my 16" trapper.
not sure if the same effect applies to shotguns--good question

[Ozark mike]

I understand what the question is but not sure of the answer ,shooting the same 170 grain load my 26" barreled 30-30 will have higher velocity than my 16" trapper.
not sure if the same effect applies to shotguns--good question

The diffrence here is a 30 30 uses rifle powders where shot guns use quicker pistol powders. The load is accelerated quickly then tapers off. Where a rifle the load accelerates most of the way down the bbl at a constant rate
Kinda like apples and oranges with a few bananas

[farmbif]

ive always noticed that shotshell load data gives pressure and velocity but never seen any note of barrel length. I still need to get a pound of pro reach and see how some of those real fast loads effect pattern

[ChuckJaxFL]

I found this:

https://www.kommandoblog.com/2017/05/16/shotgun-barrel-length-velocity/

I’m surprised at the numbers. I would have thought there would be a lot more disparity in different barrels than these numbers would indicate.


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[W.R.Buchanan]

Call Vang Comp 1-928-636-8455 They can probably tell you exactly what is wrong with that gun. Hans Vang is the "Absolute Guru of Police Shotguns" and that is a "Police Shotgun!"

Randy

[pashiner]

As for 14 inch barrels and blue dot, I'm about to test that very thing...blue dot round ball loads in my shockwave. I know, compared to a 28" barrel, those shorties really throw some fireballs with commercial slug loads, and are obviously much louder. We'll see of I get a complete burn in the short barrel if it doesn't rain tonight.

[faustus]

I have shot my 12ga Tac-14 quite a bit .... and it has become my main woods bumming gun.

http://kalypso.net/temp/Tac-14_Marine_lowres.jpg

Does your 14” 11-87 have a shoulder stock? If it doesn't here a suggestion":

Focus on reduced low recoil loads!!!

Full power loads are difficult to manage in a gun without a shoulder stock.... When I got my Tac-14 new I tried it ... and the result was that the gun recoiled out of my hands ... and landed in the sand in front of my feet ..... :-(

So much for 2oz Blue Dot loads ..... :-(

Here an interesting video hat explains what I mean .....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ass6RrsaPS4



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jGvKTmDV9w

[longbow]

I haven't shot anything with that short a barrel but from what experience I have with BD I think pashiner's comment is spot on:

"I know, compared to a 28" barrel, those shorties really throw some fireballs with commercial slug loads, and are obviously much louder."

Not sure if velocity will suffer as much as with a short rifle barrel but I will bet that BD will produce a fireball in such a short barrel. Having said that if you have a heavy payload you may not be able to launch it effectively with a much faster powder. All shotgun powders are fast compared to typical rifle powders some are just faster than others.

Not having done it I'll not guess at results beyond an expected large muzzle blast and fireball. If you are able, please take some pics in low light. I am sure they will be impressive!

I don't plan on getting anything with such a short barrel but am still interested in your results so please keep us posted.

Longbow

[rking22]

Faustus, thanks for posting that video. That’s probably how 90% of the ammo would go thru my Tac14 too, only a good many from the hip! Really thinking I need one in 20ga, would be physically smaller and lighter on the LW frame.

I chrono some 410s today, 296 skeet loads ran 1236 from a 28 inch barrel and 1223 from a 26 inch tube set. Saturday I will try the same loads thru a 9 inch tube set inside a 30 inch 12 gage barrel. I also have a chamber adapter I can try in my 18 inch 870. Not really a direct comparrison to the 12 ga discussed here, but data points I am doing anyway. We shot some lite skeet loads from those 9 inch tubes and I could literally see the shot string. They were still real slow in my full length tubes but not that bad. Was notable difference between 9 inch and 26 inch barrels. 296 is slower than blue dot, but not a whole bunch, so suspect BD may not be ideal in the shorty. Should be plenty of gas to operate the action !!! And then some.

[ChuckJaxFL]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200903/ac477d99bd1f4fd8a76fa03fd6b8ed1c.jpg
It does have a stock. Here it is, for comparison, next to my 21” 11-87SP Deer.

I bought a cheap chrony on EBay. I hope to find out if it works this weekend. I’m also planning a visit to the family farm this month. Maybe I can get some low-light footage with Blue Dot. I have some 32gr under 00B*15 ready to go.


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[rking22]

Uh, this may not pertain to you specifically, but feel a need to throw it out there for others who might come along. If you are in the US the TAC14 is only non NFA if it retains the original grip configuration, full but stock makes it an NFA item. If you are north of the border, or have a stamp then never mind. Just guessing location based on forum name.

[centershot]

Uh, this may not pertain to you specifically, but feel a need to throw it out there for others who might come along. If you are in the US the TAC14 is only non NFA if it retains the original grip configuration, full but stock makes it an NFA item. If you are north of the border, or have a stamp then never mind. Just guessing location based on forum name.

Yes, without the paperwork and tax stamp, putting a full length buttstock on a Tac-14 is no different than adding a buttstock to a pistol - instant felony!

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'll call Trump (got him on Speed Dial) and get him to do an EO Exempting Republican Owned SBS's from NFA.

Especially here in CA where Riots are Imminent, Before, During, and After the Election !!!

That will help,,, Right?

Randy

Here's a 870 SBS from Hans Vang King of the Police Shotgun Gurus !!! This is what they should look like!!!

267227

[centershot]

^^^ We love you Randy! ^^^

[ChuckJaxFL]

I ran a couple loads today. The 14” gun was the 11/87. The 28” was my Winchester 120 that I bought with my hay bale tossing money when I was 11. I don’t have anything with and 18”

I tried a 00B*12 load in Fiocchi hulls and 32 grains of Blue Dot;
1160 in the 14”
1360 in the 28”


Also 00B*9 in an AA hull with 24 grains of Unique.
1140 in the 14”
1330 in the 28”

Both achieved almost exactly 85%.

Later, I’ll try some IMR red, universal, or 800x.


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[elmacgyver0]

I'll call Trump (got him on Speed Dial) and get him to do an EO Exempting Republican Owned SBS's from NFA.

Especially here in CA where Riots are Imminent, Before, During, and After the Election !!!

That will help,,, Right?

Randy

Here's a 870 SBS from Hans Vang King of the Police Shotgun Gurus !!! This is what they should look like!!!

267227

Don't care a rats behind about shotguns but if you can get him to remove suppressors from the NFA I will be most beholding to you!

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'm workin' on it!

All I need is for him to answer his phone, Melania keeps answering his phone and she just hangs up on me.

Randy

[ChuckJaxFL]

Unexpected ‘success’:

Just out of curiosity, I loaded:
Win AAHS gray,
24.5gr Unique,
CB1118-12 (didn’t clip the petals)
And just 6 00B from the Lee mold, stacked in three pairs.

I expected this load to turn the 1187 into a single shot. However, the gun ran five rounds without a hiccup. Velocity was around 1175, patterns were better than my other garbage attempts for the day.

Recoil was laughable. I only had a couple more of these loaded up, so I handed the gun to my 100lb daughter. She’d never shot any shotgun before. Even she felt that the recoil was negligible, she said she could have shot it all day.

I’ll load up a dozen more or so, to see if it really works, or if I just had a lucky day.

With only 6 pellets, this doesn’t seem destined to be my favorite round. But, it is an easy, fun to shoot one. 6 pellets at 1175 is nothing to dismiss. And, it’s nice to have an option that is super cheap, has nearly-no-recoil, and actually works where each and every expensive LE/Tactical ‘reduced recoil’ load that I’ve tried fails.


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[dverna]

Unexpected ‘success’:

Just out of curiosity, I loaded:
Win AAHS gray,
24.5gr Unique,
CB1118-12 (didn’t clip the petals)
And just 6 00B from the Lee mold, stacked in three pairs.

I expected this load to turn the 1187 into a single shot. However, the gun ran five rounds without a hiccup. Velocity was around 1175, patterns were better than my other garbage attempts for the day.

Recoil was laughable. I only had a couple more of these loaded up, so I handed the gun to my 100lb daughter. She’d never shot any shotgun before. Even she felt that the recoil was negligible, she said she could have shot it all day.

I’ll load up a dozen more or so, to see if it really works, or if I just had a lucky day.

With only 6 pellets, this doesn’t seem destined to be my favorite round. But, it is an easy, fun to shoot one. 6 pellets at 1175 is nothing to dismiss. And, it’s nice to have an option that is super cheap, has nearly-no-recoil, and actually works where each and every expensive LE/Tactical ‘reduced recoil’ load that I’ve tried fails.


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There is a place for lower recoil loads in a defensive shotgun intended for up close work. Especially if it is a "family" gun and your wife/gf/children may have to use it. It is what I have for my SG in both slugs and buckshot. I am not using it to shoot deer or hogs at 50 yards.

[megasupermagnum]

That's still more than 20 gauge buckshot. Being as Unique is on the slow side of what most people would choose for such a light payload, it likely keeps the port pressure higher to allow it to cycle.

[ChuckJaxFL]

That's still more than 20 gauge buckshot. Being as Unique is on the slow side of what most people would choose for such a light payload, it likely keeps the port pressure higher to allow it to cycle.

I'll bet you're exactly correct. I'd bet a "proper" 7/8 load using IMR Red won't have enough pressure left at the port.

[Frank V]

I'll bet you're exactly correct. I'd bet a "proper" 7/8 load using IMR Red won't have enough pressure left at the port.

I'm not running down anyone's choice of shotgun, but that is one reason I like the 870.

[ChuckJaxFL]

I'm not running down anyone's choice of shotgun, but that is one reason I like the 870.

You'll get no argument from me. For "serious" use, I'm with you 100%. I impulse purchased this because it was ridiculously cheap on gun broker, even with the tax stamp, and it has proven a lot of fun to mess around with.

I tried some more of those 6 pellet loads. They are very borderline as far as function. About 1 out of 6 would fail to cycle.

In the meantime, I think I've exhausted combinations using Unique. Using 24 grains, CB1118-12 wad with the petals cut off, and .310x12 I was able to get 1090fps out of the 14" barrel. The same load, using an FS12 gas seal and half of a FC12 wad generated 1142fps. Function was 100% on both loads.

[rking22]

This thread got me thinking about the Tac 14 again. I decided to spend 25$ on the grip and put it on my 18 inch barreled 870, instant Tac 18 for 25 bucks.
I kinda like it, but it’s pretty heavy, to what I expected. I shot some clays off a sporting station and it breaks them well, inside 20 yards or so. Not the gun, that’s as far as I can point without the Burt stock against my forearm for index. I was shooting from bottom of my rib cage, basically hip shooting. About 70% breaks if the were close, notably better with a “whole” gun, usually 90+ percent on that type target. Recoil not bad, but I was shooting 1 oz at 1290fps, will try something more for curiosity. Probably going to set up one of my lightweight 20s with this grip, just for fun.
Thanks to the OP for the interesting diversion!

[ChuckJaxFL]

I forgot:

As expected, 14” doesn’t seem to be enough for a real heavy blue dot load.

AAHS hull, 16 pellets of 310 ( 1 5/8 oz), X12X & FC12.

31 grains - 679 FPS
32 grains - I lost this number. It was in the 800’s.
33 grains - 962 FPS


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[megasupermagnum]

I forgot:

As expected, 14” doesn’t seem to be enough for a real heavy blue dot load.

AAHS hull, 16 pellets of 310 ( 1 5/8 oz), X12X & FC12.

31 grains - 679 FPS
32 grains - I lost this number. It was in the 800’s.
33 grains - 962 FPS


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I wouldn't blame the barrel, that just sounds like a poor load to me. I can't find any 1 5/8 oz data for an AA hull. The most similar I can find is 1 1/2 ounce buckshot loads, and most of them are only going 1,100-1,150 fps. You aren't far behind those. If you really want to punish your hand, find some Federal plastic base hunting hulls. You can likely gain 150 fps in the 2 3/4" and 200+ fps in the 3".

[ChuckJaxFL]

I can't find any 1 5/8 oz data for an AA hull. The most similar I can find..

Time for me to backpedal! I posted from memory instead of notes, and I posted incorrect information.

BPI load: BKL130315-4645

Cheddite hull, FS12 only (no cushion), with an overshot card. 16 pellets, 4x4.

Good eye!


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[ChuckJaxFL]

It depends on what you you are looking for as far as what you consider increased performance. If what you are looking for is heavy payloads, say 12 pellet 00 buckshot, then Bluedot is what you want. If you want speed, then something like 8 pellet with Longshot might be the way to go. If you want a tight pattern, then just about anything can work, and you would want to look into buffered load data.

There are millions of shotguns out there with 18 1/2" to 20" barrels. 14" won't be far behind those as far as velocities.

‘Depends on what you’re looking for’. I decided to follow the Gus Cotey article and logic. I want lots of #1 buck traveling around 1050.

I wanted the 15 pellet blue dot load from the Lyman manual (page 357) to work. I think with an 18” or 21” barrel it probably would, but I don’t have one in which to try. In my 14”, I’d get wild extreme spreads. Several shots around 1075, then one 750fps round. I kept trying it over & over, wondering if my crimps or something was the cause. But, the same ammo was very consistent, around 1350, from my 28” barrel. I’ll probably catch hell for admitting to this: I strayed from the book data, I tried substituting magnum primers. That didn’t help, either.

I probably have 300 or 350 rounds burned in this exercise. I’ve used unique, blue dot, clays, IMR red, universal, 800x, and maybe others I’ve forgotten. As far as shot goes, 4B, 1B, .310, 00, and 000, all pattern close enough to each other that it doesn’t matter. For hulls, I’ve only tried AA, Fiocchi, Cheddite and 3” Remington Nitro.

Ultimately, the ‘winner’ is going to be another Lyman manual load (page 175). AA HS hull, WAA12R wad, #1B, 12 pellets, 24.0 grains of Unique. Consistent 1050-1075fps, consistent function, and very reasonable recoil. Pretty much exactly what everyone expected, but fun to screw around with all the same.





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[megasupermagnum]

May I suggest that your chrony isn't reading correctly due to muzzle blast? It makes no sense at all that a 14" barrel would have huge ES, but a 28" wouldn't. Pressure is peaked before the shot even gets to the barrel. The only thing a shorter barrel would have would be much more muzzle blast, which is no small factor. You would know if your load was missing 300 fps. It would go poof instead of bang.

[ChuckJaxFL]

May I suggest that your chrony isn't reading correctly due to muzzle blast? It makes no sense at all that a 14" barrel would have huge ES, but a 28" wouldn't. Pressure is peaked before the shot even gets to the barrel. The only thing a shorter barrel would have would be much more muzzle blast, which is no small factor. You would know if your load was missing 300 fps. It would go poof instead of bang.

I thought as much, too. I’d even prefer this to be the case. I would load the 15 pellet load instead of the 12.

But I don’t understand why it wouldn’t also throw the occasional off number when shooting my 28” Winchester?


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[megasupermagnum]

The 28" barrel has much less muzzle blast. There is already a ton of junk flying out of a shotgun, making them hard to chronograph sometimes. That's why I always test at about 3' from the muzzle. You could try farther away, say 8', but that may not give good readings either. I'm sure you noticed the fireball when shooting those bluedot loads from your 14" barrel. That fireball is what is screwing up your reading. Unique has much less muzzle blast. As I said, you would notice if your loads were truly 750 fps. They would go pop, and you would question if they even left the barrel. I regularly shoot bluedot in barrels as short as 1 3/4" in handguns.

[ChuckJaxFL]

That fireball is what is screwing up your reading. Unique has much less muzzle blast.

Sounds reasonable enough. I wish I knew someone with a magnetospeed. It would be interesting to compare it with the optical chrony (assuming that an SBS flamethrower doesn’t ruin it immediately).


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[W.R.Buchanan]

Chuck: what kind of patterns are you getting? I assume your barrel is cylinder bore? One solution that actually works is Vang Comp. www.vangcomp.com

I have two guns that have been done this way. One is a 20" Tactical M500 and the other is an 18.5" M500 that is my house gun.

Both these guns put 00 buck into 7" at 25 yards. I can't see any reason why yours shouldn't do that too.

As far as your odd readings, I would go with Bogus Readings as the problem.

With a Chrony you leave the Sky Screens off then set the thing up at about 10-15 feet from the muzzle and then shoot 1-2 feet above the Chrony. If you are trying to shoot thru the sky screens the payload is too close to the readers and just the shock wave from the large payload will disrupt the reading.

Randy

[ChuckJaxFL]

Chuck: what kind of patterns are you getting? I assume your barrel is cylinder bore? One solution that actually works is Vang Comp. www.vangcomp.com

I have two guns that have been done this way. One is a 20" Tactical M500 and the other is an 18.5" M500 that is my house gun.

Both these guns put 00 buck into 7" at 25 yards. I can't see any reason why yours shouldn't do that too.

As far as your odd readings, I would go with Bogus Readings as the problem.

With a Chrony you leave the Sky Screens off then set the thing up at about 10-15 feet from the muzzle and then shoot 1-2 feet above the Chrony. If you are trying to shoot thru the sky screens the payload is too close to the readers and just the shock wave from the large payload will disrupt the reading.

Randy

It’s a modified choke, oddly enough. I would expect a cylinder or improved. I get around 1” to 1.25” per yard with everything except flight control (obviously). Nothing to brag about, or cry about I feel.

I do leave the screens off, I don’t even use them for rifle/pistol shooting. I shoot a little higher with the shotgun, but not feet high.

I shoot about 10’ back. I’d think that much further and the wad & shot column would have separated enough to cause squirrelly readings.


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[Lonegun1894]

Thank y'all for this topic. I'm trying to figure out a slug load for a 14" Mossberg 590A1 right now.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Lonegun: The two most popular and easy to get results in a smoothbore from,,, are the Lee 7/8oz and 1 oz slugs.(on the right side) Round Balls of .662-.690 are also good performers. (left side.)

All of these can be loaded in basic low intensity Trap Loads which can be factory loaded and opened up and substitute the Slug for the shot, or loaded that way if you reload. There is also the Lyman Sabot Slug (shown in the middle) which does pretty well from a smoothbore but works best from a rifled barrel.

There is tons of data here on loading all these slugs. Good luck and welcome to the Rabbits Hole.

Randy

[M-Tecs]

I have shot my 12ga Tac-14 quite a bit .... and it has become my main woods bumming gun.

http://kalypso.net/temp/Tac-14_Marine_lowres.jpg

Does your 14” 11-87 have a shoulder stock? If it doesn't here a suggestion":

Focus on reduced low recoil loads!!!

Full power loads are difficult to manage in a gun without a shoulder stock.... When I got my Tac-14 new I tried it ... and the result was that the gun recoiled out of my hands ... and landed in the sand in front of my feet ..... :-(

So much for 2oz Blue Dot loads ..... :-(

Here an interesting video hat explains what I mean .....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ass6RrsaPS4



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jGvKTmDV9w

Haven't shot skeet with mine but from the 16 yard trap line low was 16 and high was 23 with about a 19 or 20 average. I shoot at a small club and every time I bring it out two or three people want to shoot it. I've maybe shot 14 or 15 rounds of trap with it but other have shot at least 20 rounds of trap with it.

I did kill one Canadian Goose with it. 3" HV steel are a bit snappy.

[Lonegun1894]

W.R.Buchanan,
Thank you very much, Sir! I have a few moulds I have used for some time in my other shotguns, and among them is a Lee .690" RB, a Lyman .678" RB, the Lyman sabot slug, the Lyman Foster slug, a Lee 1oz slug, and a MP full bore version of the Lyman sabot slug. Now, my best load to date will consistently shoot the MP slug into 6"@100 with my 18" Mossberg 500 with a ghost ring rear and front post, and often does 4" groups with that gun, but, and I kinda hate to say it, but I use the .678" RB the most because it does 3"@50 and most of my hunting is within that range, but the RB just casts and loads the easiest with no fuss. This load completely falls apart shortly after that with groups of 6"@75 and 10-12"@100. This 14" have the same sights, , but for some reason I haven't figured out does one group into 4"@100, and then the next several groups are 8"@100. Drives me nuts, but I will figure it out. And if not, I will just keep it a 50yd hog gun instead of picking up drinking.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Lonegun: Your current results are about as good as it gets from a smoothbore. 3" at 50 yards is pretty good shooting. You've got all the slug moulds you need, unless you want to get into some of the Heavy Russian Slugs which don't really shoot any better, they are just heavier.

As far as the sporadic groups in Smoothbores with Roundballs or the "Simple Slugs" like the Lee and Foster styles,,, nobody knows what causes that. We all have opinions but nobody has proven anything yet, and if they had we'd all be doing it. I personally think it is barrel fouling from the plastic wads, and I know it makes a difference in Rifled Barrels, but can offer no proof that it affects smoothbores.

I have fired 400 rounds of birdshot, buck, and slugs thru my Browning A5 "Buck Special" barrel in one class, and it shot the same at the end as it did in the beginning so obviously the bore condition didn't make any difference with that barrel. It certainly makes a difference with the Rifled Barrel for that gun and the groups start deteriorating after 5 or so shots. I am trying to figure out a way to lubricate the bore or the wads like we do with cast boolits to eliminate or at least mitigate the fouling problem.

The last batch of Lyman Sabot slugs I loaded I used some of that Mica Wad Slick from BPI on the wads so we will see how that works out. There are guys here who get 1-2" groups at 100 yards with that style slug from several different types of guns but they are are Rifled Shotguns with Scopes on them, so effectively they are ".73 Caliber Rifles."

Or more properly ".73 caliber Pellet Guns."

Randy

[Lonegun1894]

W.R.Buchanan: That is part of my problem. I have a 12ga rifled barrel for my Mossberg 500 with a 3-9x40mm scope on it, and factory loads regularly give 1.5-2"@100, and my handloads usually do 2-3"@100, so still plenty good enough, but I want to improve on it. Now, here is where my OCD kicks in. Logically, I know it really doesn't matter because almost all my hunting is inside of 50yds, with probably 90% of it being inside of 25yds because I LOVE getting in close and see it as more of a challenge than long range shooting. I still like long range for the practice, but figured out years ago that there is a huge difference between hunting and shooting. So, while logic and experience tells me that my groups are definitely good enough for the vast majority of my hunting, there is a part of me that wants to squeeze the absolute best accuracy I possibly can, and make it consistent with no flyers. I don't need the tiny groups because a hog just isn't that small, but I get this twisted level of satisfaction from small groups that I just can't explain, and so the pursuit of tiny groups continues...

[farmbif]

on the subject of short barrel shotguns
I was watching an interview with Richard Kuklinski and he was saying how surprised he was when he shot a guy in the head with a sawed off shotgun and the guys head exploded like shooting a watermelon.
just couldn't stop thinking about what he said when I saw this thread

[M-Tecs]

on the subject of short barrel shotguns
I was watching an interview with Richard Kuklinski and he was saying how surprised he was when he shot a guy in the head with a sawed off shotgun and the guys head exploded like shooting a watermelon.
just couldn't stop thinking about what he said when I saw this thread

That is singularly the most inappropriate post I have ever seen on this forum.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Plenty more where you came from. The idea of shooting for groups is not a new idea. Many people do it and are quite satisfied with just doing that for their entire shooting experience and that is just fine. My Bro in law has been doing this for a while chasing Nirvana with his 6.5 Grendel AR. He has already shot several "1 hole" groups, but says he want to keep looking. I asked if he was looking for something worse.?

However the other way to look at it is first you develop a load for your gun, then you sight it in, and then you go shoot something with it.

Your handloads will take a lot of sifting thru powders, primers, wads, and slug types, to improve on what you already have done,,, which is pretty damn good!.

In a Rifled Barrel the actual "slug" is, in my opinion, the primary factor in accuracy. Point being, we cast these, and unlike Smaller Rifle Boolits, these Boolits are big and clunky, and as such there is lots of room for inconsistencies to occur. And those inconsistencies are magnified by the size of the slug and are going to be very hard to find and more properly deal with effectively. Minor Casting Flaws will make those 1" groups into 2-3" groups very easily.

Trying to eek out that last little bit of accuracy becomes an exercise in diminishing returns. And mostly those returns if achieved are not repeatable, so they become moot.

Now another way to go to remove those inconsistencies is to machine the slugs from Brass or some other soft material. I have had the best luck with STI Sabots and Brass Inserts that I turned on my lathe. These produced a 1x1.5" group at 50 yards from my A5s rifled barrel with open sights. Which probably would have shrunk even smaller with a scope. You'll note the first three shots were the Clover Leaf and the two other shots were added after I saw the clover leaf. That 3 shot cloverleaf is .5 x.625 or 1/2 x 5/8" !

Trying to achieve that with cast slugs is going to be nearly impossible, as there are simply too many variables. Getting it to happen twice is not ever going to happen, and in the off chance it did happen, it could only be attributable to Divine Intervention as we humans are incapable of perfection, let alone "Repeated Perfection."

One of the reasons why you get such good results with factory slugs is because they are Swaged not cast. Swaging eliminates all the possible imperfections that can occur during Casting. Most factory made slugs are Swaged.

Below is pics of the STI Sabot with Brass Insert. STI Slug with cast insert. Lightfield Slug supposed to be very accurate., Brenneke Slug also accurate and the BPI AQ Slug which you can buy to hand load and are supposed to be good from either rifled or smoothbore barrels.

I tend to look at shotgun accuracy, and for that matter rifle and pistol accuracy as well, thru the lens of "can I hit a man sized target at my intended/expected range, offhand, with teh load I've chosen. If the load/gun produces sufficient accuracy off a rest to accomplish that task then I'm good to go. for my shotguns if I can get under 3" at 50 yards with either of My M500's or A5 with Smoothbore Barrels using Lee Slugs or Round Balls that is good enough for me. With the Rifled Barrels I want to see <3" at 100 yards with iron sights, which gives me "rifle accuracy" out to and slightly beyond 100 yards.

With any of my .223 carbines I want to see 1-1.5" at 100 yards which yields sufficient accuracy to hit said man sized target out to 300 yards and beyond.

After these results have been achieved, I am done testing and that load will be what I use from then on.

My Ruger Scout Rifle .308 will consistently put 5 shots into 7/8" at 100 yards with my reloads. That load of 147 gr pulled M80 ball bullets, 45 gr of IMR 4895, produced that result on the first try. It has also duplicated that group many times. Other than the 100 Federal Cases that were factory loaded, every round fired in that gun has been that same load, and those cases have been reloaded 13 times so far. Never lost one yet. That load has also produced one 3 shot group of 4 3/4" at 500 Meters.

Why would anyone need to look farther?

This is my take on accuracy and anyone is free to do what they want as this is still a free country, but this is my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

That is singularly the most inappropriate post I have ever seen on this forum.

I don't know. You should read some of the other garbage that guy writes.

[nightwolf1974]

Reloading for semi-auto shotguns can be tricky, but when you are dealing with shorter barrels, I've found that sometimes you have to shoot a little stiffer load to get them to function reliably. Pumps like the Tac-14 & Shockwave aren't prone to this problem. Just my 2¢

[Lonegun1894]

W.R.Buchanan, You're absolutely correct, and that is what I do with most of my guns, but I also try to switch things up a bit and concentrate on one thing for a while, find a load it likes, and standardize that load for it, and then go back to something else and mess with it a bit to see if maybe I can improve on it a bit. Right now, my projects are mostly shotguns, with a .44 Mag Contender thrown in just for a change. I have the Contender figured out to where I am the limiting factor, and now am trying to get this shotgun to the same point.

[ChuckJaxFL]

Reloading for semi-auto shotguns can be tricky, but when you are dealing with shorter barrels, I've found that sometimes you have to shoot a little stiffer load to get them to function reliably. Pumps like the Tac-14 & Shockwave aren't prone to this problem. Just my 2¢

I have no argument with this. I bought the 1187 SBS as a toy.


I also have an 1187 SPS Deer that has filled my freezer many times over. I have no issue with the 1187 platform altogether. But, as a short barrel, if I ever thought I’d need it for ‘serious’ use, I would certainly have gone with an 870.


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[ChuckJaxFL]

At some point, someone asked for night video of the Blue Dot loads.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210404/52af6a32cbfb834c365f45f0f809b3f9.jpg




https://youtu.be/uupTRcu73VQ

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yeah I bet that guy had lots of "Blue Dots" spinning around in his night vision after touching off that round.

Randy

[ChuckJaxFL]

That guy is me. You might be surprised how little it actually did affect my night vision. That ball is dramatic, but so brief that it wasn’t really a problem.

I expected flash. I didn’t expect the flash to be torso-sized! MSM called it (as did you and others) with regard to the chrony readings.


That fireball is what is screwing up your reading.


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