Barrel liners

[CJ_TnT]

Hello!

I've acquired an old Hopkins & Allen falling block in 25-20. It's in rough shape; barrel shot out, action is slightly loose, medium pitting, stock is in great shape though. Its going to be a restoration project and I would like to line the barrel in ether 25-20 or 32-20. Haven't decided yet :-P My question is who manufactures barrel liners and what is your experience with them? I have only seen the ones from Brownells (Redmans). I'm guessing they are probably good liners but want to see what else is out there. I searched the forms but didn't see anything within the last couple of years.

Thanks!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Brownell's would be my go-to vendor, but you could do an internet search (Google) and see what you come up with.

[CJ_TnT]

I have done a Google search and turned up a couple other brands but no reviews or input. Some I cannot even find a working website leading me to beleive they are no longer in existence. I was asking the community if they had any experience with others, hoping to find brands that may be still in production.

[Deadeye Bly]

T.J.'s makes many barrel liners from .17 to .58 caliber. They are hammer forged from chrome-moly tubing. Their phone # is 859-635-5560, e-mail is TJsLiners1992@gmail.com, address is P.O Box 531 Alexandria, KY 41001.

[farmbif]

if going to 32-20 rather than getting a drill and liner would probably be about equal cost to spend off to JES for a rebore

[rockrat]

Don't think JES does 30 cal rebores. I think 338cal is his min.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

https://i.imgur.com/9oouSKP.jpg

I've used TJ's liners on several jobs, no problems.

[uscra112]

Yup - TJ's. Mike still doesn't have a web site, yet he sells all he can make. Must do something right.

A .25-20 H&A is a bit unusual. Would appreciate a few photos if you can. In may be one of their "high grade" (which is a bit of joke with H&A), target rifles. BTW it will be .25-20 Stevens, not .25-20 WCF, unless it's been rechambered.

Assuming that it's a medium frame, the fit of that blade-like extractor in its' slot is crucial. When they get loose they slip around the rim and fail to extract. You likely will have to make a new extractor that's thicker to restore the fit. Ask me how I know.

[Fast Asleep]

JES can do a 32-20 rebore. He recently did a Marlin 94 in 25-20 to 32-20 for me. I have had him do about a dozen barrels for me and all have turned out great.

[CJ_TnT]

Sorry for the delay, was out of town. Thank you everyone for the responses. uscra112 here are some photos, I'm not positive on the chambering as I haven't had time to do a chamber casting. I'm going by what I was told. I haven't been able to identify the exact model. found similar ones but not with the same screw pattern on the receiver. Someone also brazed on a lever extension and cut two additional dove tails into the barrel. I'm starting to think the barrel is not original as there are no markings or hint of were a marking should be. It needs a lot of work but I think it will be a fun winter project. It's almost worthless right now so only have time to loose!
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[uscra112]

Yup, a "medium frame" I can tell you a lot more about it but my satellite uplink is very flaky today.

[uscra112]

Trying again with my "wall of text" post:

Yup! That's what we now call the "medium frame". A bastardization of William Davenport's Bay State design, which H&A bought when Bay State went bankrupt in 1888. Bay State rifles were well made but too expensive to sell well.. H&A put the product cheapening engineers to work, and what you have is the result. It didn't sell all that well either.

Interchangeable barrels was a design feature, which is why it has that flat blade extractor. You slid it laterally on its' pivot screw to engage anything from .22 LR to shotgun cartridges. I've seen a cased set with 20 gauge, .25-20 Stevens, and .38-55 barrels.

The rebounding hammer limits you to low pressure cartridges. Shooting anything hotter pretty much guarantees blown primers. Which includes the .25-20 WCF, by the way, unless you handload. Some factory ammo is loaded above 25,000 psi. The .32-20 would be my upper limit today. This was a rifle designed before smokeless powder became anything more than a laboratory curiosity.

That strange slotted affair on the right side they called their "adjustable set trigger". A kludge if there ever was one. It "adjusted" the depth of engagement of the sear. Don't spend much time trying to make it work. It was a dangerous feature when it was new. Many of the medium frames omitted it, which was all to the good.

That removable-tapered-pin takedown will be badly worn. Plan to ream the frame and barrel for a modern taper pin, drive it home, and forget that the rifle was ever a takedown. Better yet, if yours has the small (non-shotgun) barrel shank, thread a barrel in and be done with it.

There's precious little good historical or technical information on the medium frame rifles. The best that I know of is a little book that the late Charlie Carder self-published in 1995. (I met him at a gun show in Lima Oh about 1998. He sold me a copy (and signed it). Drawings are crude, but at least he made an effort. deHass devoted a couple of pages to the medium and large frames in his first book. Joseph Vorisek published a history of H&A, but he only devotes one page to the large and medium frame rifles, and much of that is wrong. Cornell Publications has reprints of post-1900 catalogs, and also Carder's little book. Search for Merwin Hulbert to find anything about the medium frames. H&A didn't sell under their own name until after M-H went bankrupt in 1896.

With patience and perspiration the medium frame can be made into a tolerable rifle. I have one that some some unknown gunsmith must have spent days blueprinting. I paid a pittance for it, but I'm proud to own it.

My nickel's worth. Have fun with it.

[CJ_TnT]

Uscra112, after doing some more reading on the "medium frame," it seams like there may be a little bit of a collectors following for them? I have no intentions of selling it and just wanted a old beater to practice gunsmithing on. However I prefer to not alter or possibly destroy a firearm with potential collectors value. I shifted my collecting to late 1800s - early 1900's, Floberts, Sharps, Martini henrys, etc. and thought this would be a fun little shooter/project that fits my current genre. I bought the rifle for under $200 shipped to my door. My plan was to line the barrel, re-fit barrel to receiver (too loose), tighten up receiver (block loose), fill in extra dove tail cuts in barrel, refinish barrel, and try my hand at color case hardening the action and parts.

[CJ_TnT]

Posted during my reply, Thanks for the extra info!

[uscra112]

I wouldn't say that there was very much collector interest, except for odd ducks like me and Charlie Carder. That gunsmith's meisterstuck I mentioned went begging at $300 on Gunbroker for a couple of weeks. In the end I was the only bidder. Go ahead and do your worst to it. You'll be making the proverbial silk purse from a sow's ear.

As an aside, I know of one guy in the ASSRA who shoots blackpowder .22 rimfire (!) whose competition piece is a Hopkins & Allen. He breech-seats, so the inability of the rifle to crowd a cartridge into the chamber like a Stevens or a Ballard will is irrelevant. A good barrel will always shoot well.

Phil

[CJ_TnT]

Sounds good, and I know what you mean about the silk purse. I have a old single shot J C Higgins .22 LR rifle I picked up at a gun show for $40. It's what I used to learn how to glass bed, pillar block, install ebony tip, butt plate with maple spacer, and jeweled bolt. Purdiest darn Higgins you ever seen!

Blackpowder .22rimfire, now that's dedication!

[uscra112]

Not much interested in originality, me. I like to collect examples of the individual gunsmith's artistry.

[CJ_TnT]

Did a chamber casting, it is a 25-20 WCF. I'll probably re line to that and keep the loads on the light side.

[uscra112]

Good plan. The WCF brass is easier to find than the Stevens nowadays.

[JLF]

Beautiful rifle. I would make a case hardening to the action and the barrel and other pieces a blued with lime.
Sorry if I left the topic.

[Jedman]

I own a large frame H&A that I rebarreled to 50-70 I had to make a new extractor and silver soldered the barrel shank into the receiver. I also have a Merlin & Hulbert small frame in 22 rf that is nearly the same as a H&A m 922.
I have rarely seen a medium frame for sale and the ones I have seen have been in poor condition. Being your rifle has been modified and not really a collector gun I would see if you could get someone to just fit a used take off barrel for it as all you would be loosing is the barrel markings and would have a lot less money in it. I would probably make it a 32 S&W long or maybe a 32 H&R as you can use about any 30-32 cal barrel and they are a dime a dozen used.
Just my 2 cents.

Jedman

[uscra112]

A replacement barrel should certainly be on the table. One of my 822s is wearing a repurposed Marlin 60 barrel. Nobody notices until I point it out. (Probably because nobody has ever seen an 822 before!) It shoots like a modern rifle, although I limit it to Subsonic ammo. Not a very robust action, is the 822.

[fixit]

Oh yeah! The idea of using a 30 caliber barrel and chambering it in it in 32 h&r is in the works on my end. Have used the chamber inserts on a mosin nagant, and it's the ideal approach for a"whisper" rifle. Have a friend who even suggested doing the chamber in 32 Federal, but I don't think I'll go that far. At any rate, fiddling with very heavy for caliber loads out of a long barrel with ridiculously small powder charges can tickle your funny bone.

[uscra112]

As I think I already posted, the rebounding hammer of the H&A makes it unsafe for high pressure. Since the hammer does not back up the firing pin, burst primers are a certainty. "Whisper" loads with heavy bullets work by creating a short pulse of very high pressure at the beginning of the bullet's travel down the barrel.