Sizing .223 cast boolits...

[Lakehouse2012]

Hi Guys,

Well, I've gone down the rabbit hole of making my own .223 boolits. I've got Miha's 75g Gas check mold and am casting away. Tonight I started the sizing on the little lee press, and the boolits are so small, Im smashing them at the nose. Lead is fairly hard (12-13brn) and I am trying to get GC's on in the same operation. I've never worked with these tiny things, usually sizing straight wall stuff.

So- Question is for those that are doing it alot: are you using a custom push-through punch, or Hitek coating them for lower Mu? what is my hangup?

Thanks,

Lakehouse2012

[poppy42]

If you are using a Lee push through that pushes up from the base how are you smashing the nose of the bullet. And as far as your bhn, 12,13 is not very hard For such a fast bullet. I cast mine with at least Lyman #2 (15 bhn)

[Czech_too]

I started out sizing all my boolits using an RCBS lube/sizer with no real difficulties regardless of caliber. Gone since to using an NOE push thru sizer, tumble lubing first of course, mounted in an upside down 'C' press.
Trying to visualize how you're deforming the nose of the boolit though. You are lubing prior to sizing?

The .22's are small, especially the 37 grain! I use a similar BHN but only in a single shot or bolt action rifle.

[rancher1913]

I have had that same problem sizing 25 cal boolits and really did not discover a solution, I gave up and now swage my 25 cal and 223 boolits. I would look at doing the sizing on a lyman sizer and doing a custom top pin, that would set the gc and size. I believe the problem with the lee push die is that the new boolit has to push the old boolit out and in so doing it marrs the new boolit head. I was going to try modifying the die so the boolit went compleatly through on one pass but never did.

[MUSTANG]

I would recommend making a "PUSHER ROD" to use in your Lee push through die for sizing .223/.224. I have pusher rods I have made for several of my Lee Sizing dies, and for some of my operations in making rifle jackets from brass cases (example is sizing 9mm cases to .307 jackets in my Corbin Swage Press requires a pusher rod to finish pushing the 9mm case through the sizing die - without a pusher rod I get "Telescoped" brass when trying to push through by placing a new case in the bottom to push out the previously sized 9mm to .307).

One can get a 3 foot section of Steel Rod from Graingers in numerous sizes and cut a piece off to the length that works best with you specific press and die combination. A 7/32" rod (0.2187 Inch diameter) can be found at:

https://www.grainger.com/product/GRAINGER-APPROVED-Water-Hard-Drill-Rod-33J367


Using a pusher rod, there is no pressure on the nose, all pressure is on the base of the .223/.224 bullet - so no mashing/distortion of the nose. Also allows square seating of gas checks while sizing, as the push rod (if cut square) supports the gas check at the base equally on the 2nd stroke when the boolit is ejected from the die by the push rod.

[Dimner]

Hello fellow mitten man. oddly I was doing the same thing at the same time as you last night.

For me, I always push on the gas checks first on the base of the bullet. Take a bullet, put the gas check on the base, and press it against the cast metal of my press. Then put it aside. I do about 25-50 at a time. then I put them through the sizing die. I always try my best to make sure the bullet is sitting upright and not slanted when I put a gas check on by hand.

However, I use the NOE push through sizing die. It's well worth the investment over the Lee version. It allows me to size base first (there is a nose pusher attachment I have somewhere), or nose first. Although, I always do nose first, meaning the bullet in the normal upright position. This crimps/sets the gas checks quite well.

When I hand apply a gas check in a manner that the bullet with handseated gas check is slanted, I turn to one or a combination of the following NOE do-dads that might make your life easier. I have the exact same mold as you. I have not cast with it yet, it's been too hot for my liking. But I'm guessing it's throwing the bases a bit large so it's difficult to get those gas checks started square. NOE has a couple options that may help you with that. I have all three, and they all have there merits.

1) they have a base chamfer tool. It's a handheld or drill held little device that gives a slight chamfer on the base of the bullet. Helps remove any flashing and gives the bullet a tiny bevel base. There is a hand held version and a version that chucks in a drill. I try and put the slightest bevel possible on mine, and then using the same procedure bevel all the rest. Like maybe 3 turns of the tool. This is the first thing I try and usually works. I do it over a trash can so the little lead shavings are somewhat contained.

2) Gas check seating tool. NOE makes a die that fits in your press that takes the nose punch that you received with your mold (I love that about Miha) . You place the bullet and gas check on an 'anvil' and push it up to a die that holds your nose punch and the nose punch aligns the bullet correctly and lets the GC seat squarely.

3) gas check flaring tool. They also make a tool that slightly flares a gas check so a fatter base sits in it before you crimp it on. I have this one as well, but I find it the least used.

80% of the time when I have problems with GC seating, the chamfer tool takes care of it. If I am going for accuracy, I use #2.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I use a lyman lube-sizer for most 22 and 243 boolits.
BUT, when I heat treat the boolits, I will size them first on a reloading press (like the Lee sizer setup), But I use Lyman lube-sizer dies in a reloading press adaptor die that was made by theprefessor, included were long push rods, so the next boolit isn't pushing the previous boolit.

[mattw]

I have made a few thousand 22's lately. I am making 40 and 44 grain for 22 TCM and 55 and 60 grain for 221 Fireball and 222 Mag bench guns. I seat the gas check on my star, nose down with the NOE sizer bushing, then powder coat and follow up by re-sizing in the Lee App with the NOE bushing and 22 push rod. All of this is done nose down, no issues.
L-R
Lyman 225438, MP 227-640, Lyman 225462 and NOE 225-55-FN (really 61 grains)
The PC on the first one is really not good, was the first test run in black and was to thick. I have to coat black twice for a good coat, do not use it often.
266710

[Dimner]

I have made a few thousand 22's lately. I am making 40 and 44 grain for 22 TCM and 55 and 60 grain for 221 Fireball and 222 Mag bench guns. I seat the gas check on my star, nose down with the NOE sizer bushing, then powder coat and follow up by re-sizing in the Lee App with the NOE bushing and 22 push rod. All of this is done nose down, no issues.
L-R
Lyman 225438, MP 227-640, Lyman 225462 and NOE 225-55-FN (really 61 grains)
The PC on the first one is really not good, was the first test run in black and was to thick. I have to coat black twice for a good coat, do not use it often.
266710

with that MP 227-640, how long of a bullet do those cast? Also, what weight?

[mehavey]

I had same problem w/ a normal Lyman450 sizer/ittybiity bullets
-- Nose-Squash

Standard Lee push-through sizers
https://i.postimg.cc/65vd8Jkm/LeeSizer.jpg
GC&Size same op'n, never touches nose.

Come standard in 0.224/0.225

[Czech_too]

"I believe the problem with the lee push die is that the new boolit has to push the old boolit out and in so doing it marrs the new boolit head."

After giving this some thought, I have to agree with Ranch1913's statement. I have used Lee sizers and the Perfessor's and they both, to some extent, use the next boolit to push the previous boolit out of the sizer die.

[fcvan]

I started with the Lyman 225-415 and a Lyman 450 225 sizing die so seating, sizing, and lubing was straight forward. When I started powder coating, I made a jig by drilling 100 small holes so that the check shank of the boolit was not coated. Then I started using the Lee push through .225 die. The flat nose of the boolit made sizing base first almost flawless, again, almost. Sometime the boolit would shift and the sizing push rod canted and scored the sizing die. No worries, I had a buddy who wanted to buy a die and make it .260 for one of his rifles, and at the time Lee didn't offer them.

I bought a new .225 and started nose first sizing by pushing the boolit onto the gas check, placing the boolit into the sizing die and giving the ram a bump to seat the check squarely before the boolit fully entered the die body. Although I did not have any checks go on that were not square I decided to take out one of the variables. I honed out the die body so the boolit squarely entered the die body and the the check got the bump to seat. The honing was straight forward using a split dowel and some fine grit sand paper. That way, the check was inside the die body before the taper ran from the die opening to .225 diameter.

All this has seemingly been for naught. I switched to the NOE 225-62 RN designed plain base and smooth sided just for Powder Coating. I tumble using Air Soft BB PC and lay the boolits onto fan folded parchment paper, which keeps the boolits from touching or leaving marks on the sides. I know, there has been folks who just dump PCd boolits into a wire basket and they brake them apart right after the come out of the oven. Pshaw, I want pretty boolits. My current method leaves a barely perceptible mark on the bearing surface which smooths out during sizing. I am going to order some silicon ice cube trays with .5" by .5" so I can just place the boolits in the little squares.

I know this wasn't supposed to be about PC but hey. I shoot the heck out of my NOE boolits which take less time to mold, tumble, and size. I still may use the Lyman boolits and gas checks I make myself from PatMarlins CheckMaker dies. That is a complete extra step, but a good 'busy' while listening to baseball games and drinking iced tea. I don't think I will be casting any time soon, I still have 10 lbs of Lyman boolits waiting for sizing/checking, and 20 lbs of NOE that are PCd and sized, all ready to go. I only shoot about 40 rounds per range session, more if I bring trigger-happy friends.

My AR 15 runs okay, better with the Lyman, and fantastic in the Mini 14, but both give me 1" at 100 yards, at 2250 fps. The NOE will get PCd and water cooled after baking, otherwise I may need to sweeten the allow harder than 50/50 WW Soft lead. I get the same, well slightly better due to a 4X fixed optic from a 22" heavy barrel single shot, at 2450 fps using the same loads. It may do better with the above water dropped boolits mentioned above. That rifle is great for more precision work and probably only gets 20 rounds per range session. The Mini 14 and AR 15 get used for shooting on the move/run and gun drills I did when I was SWAT before I retired. Those drills are 25 to 50 yards. The 7.5" AR 15 pistol is usually 10 to 25 yards. I don't remember what it chonographed, but it is obnoxiously loud, but I like it :)

Lead projectiles are great for banging steel, and certainly less expensive than sintered copper, but neither of them damage steel plates. I do know that either the Lyman or NOE boolits are deadly on tin cans (I hate tin cans, it is an unnatural hatred, don't judge me) and devastating on small game. YMMV

[mehavey]

"I believe the problem with the lee push die is that the new boolit has to push the old boolit out and in so doing it marrs the new boolit head."

After giving this some thought, I have to agree with Ranch1913's statement. I have used Lee sizers and the Perfessor's and they both, to some extent, use the next boolit to push the previous boolit out of the sizer die.No, the first bullet through clears the internal sizer ring on its own, and is totally free inside the die body when the next bullet enters.

You push a bullet in -- turn the die over/upside down -- and it falls out

[Lakehouse2012]

You have my interest with this pic, what tool is this specifically, I'm interested.



I had same problem w/ a normal Lyman450 sizer/ittybiity bullets
-- Nose-Squash

Standard Lee push-through sizers
https://i.postimg.cc/65vd8Jkm/LeeSizer.jpg
GC&Size same op'n, never touches nose.

Come standard in 0.224/0.225

[Lakehouse2012]

Thanks Guys for the good information!

First, I'm using a Lee "C" press and invert it upside down, so I can drop bullets in with gravity. With this boolit being Gas Checked, I need to set it in nose up and I'm using a modified nose pusher that came with the MP mold (had to modify it to get it to fit in the press).

I dont want to use lube, cause I will be using hitek.

One thought is the hitek will make it more sliprey.
Next thought is the die might be rough or undersized, I'm going to hone it a bit tonight, probably take it to .225 (casting is .227) the .224 is probably just too much for the die.

I might have to invest in this NOE pusher, sounds like its help several of you.

Thank you!!




If you are using a Lee push through that pushes up from the base how are you smashing the nose of the bullet. And as far as your bhn, 12,13 is not very hard For such a fast bullet. I cast mine with at least Lyman #2 (15 bhn)


I started out sizing all my boolits using an RCBS lube/sizer with no real difficulties regardless of caliber. Gone since to using an NOE push thru sizer, tumble lubing first of course, mounted in an upside down 'C' press.
Trying to visualize how you're deforming the nose of the boolit though. You are lubing prior to sizing?

The .22's are small, especially the 37 grain! I use a similar BHN but only in a single shot or bolt action rifle.


I have had that same problem sizing 25 cal boolits and really did not discover a solution, I gave up and now swage my 25 cal and 223 boolits. I would look at doing the sizing on a lyman sizer and doing a custom top pin, that would set the gc and size. I believe the problem with the lee push die is that the new boolit has to push the old boolit out and in so doing it marrs the new boolit head. I was going to try modifying the die so the boolit went compleatly through on one pass but never did.


I would recommend making a "PUSHER ROD" to use in your Lee push through die for sizing .223/.224. I have pusher rods I have made for several of my Lee Sizing dies, and for some of my operations in making rifle jackets from brass cases (example is sizing 9mm cases to .307 jackets in my Corbin Swage Press requires a pusher rod to finish pushing the 9mm case through the sizing die - without a pusher rod I get "Telescoped" brass when trying to push through by placing a new case in the bottom to push out the previously sized 9mm to .307).

One can get a 3 foot section of Steel Rod from Graingers in numerous sizes and cut a piece off to the length that works best with you specific press and die combination. A 7/32" rod (0.2187 Inch diameter) can be found at:

https://www.grainger.com/product/GRAINGER-APPROVED-Water-Hard-Drill-Rod-33J367


Using a pusher rod, there is no pressure on the nose, all pressure is on the base of the .223/.224 bullet - so no mashing/distortion of the nose. Also allows square seating of gas checks while sizing, as the push rod (if cut square) supports the gas check at the base equally on the 2nd stroke when the boolit is ejected from the die by the push rod.


Hello fellow mitten man. oddly I was doing the same thing at the same time as you last night.

For me, I always push on the gas checks first on the base of the bullet. Take a bullet, put the gas check on the base, and press it against the cast metal of my press. Then put it aside. I do about 25-50 at a time. then I put them through the sizing die. I always try my best to make sure the bullet is sitting upright and not slanted when I put a gas check on by hand.

However, I use the NOE push through sizing die. It's well worth the investment over the Lee version. It allows me to size base first (there is a nose pusher attachment I have somewhere), or nose first. Although, I always do nose first, meaning the bullet in the normal upright position. This crimps/sets the gas checks quite well.

When I hand apply a gas check in a manner that the bullet with handseated gas check is slanted, I turn to one or a combination of the following NOE do-dads that might make your life easier. I have the exact same mold as you. I have not cast with it yet, it's been too hot for my liking. But I'm guessing it's throwing the bases a bit large so it's difficult to get those gas checks started square. NOE has a couple options that may help you with that. I have all three, and they all have there merits.

1) they have a base chamfer tool. It's a handheld or drill held little device that gives a slight chamfer on the base of the bullet. Helps remove any flashing and gives the bullet a tiny bevel base. There is a hand held version and a version that chucks in a drill. I try and put the slightest bevel possible on mine, and then using the same procedure bevel all the rest. Like maybe 3 turns of the tool. This is the first thing I try and usually works. I do it over a trash can so the little lead shavings are somewhat contained.

2) Gas check seating tool. NOE makes a die that fits in your press that takes the nose punch that you received with your mold (I love that about Miha) . You place the bullet and gas check on an 'anvil' and push it up to a die that holds your nose punch and the nose punch aligns the bullet correctly and lets the GC seat squarely.

3) gas check flaring tool. They also make a tool that slightly flares a gas check so a fatter base sits in it before you crimp it on. I have this one as well, but I find it the least used.

80% of the time when I have problems with GC seating, the chamfer tool takes care of it. If I am going for accuracy, I use #2.


I have made a few thousand 22's lately. I am making 40 and 44 grain for 22 TCM and 55 and 60 grain for 221 Fireball and 222 Mag bench guns. I seat the gas check on my star, nose down with the NOE sizer bushing, then powder coat and follow up by re-sizing in the Lee App with the NOE bushing and 22 push rod. All of this is done nose down, no issues.
L-R
Lyman 225438, MP 227-640, Lyman 225462 and NOE 225-55-FN (really 61 grains)
The PC on the first one is really not good, was the first test run in black and was to thick. I have to coat black twice for a good coat, do not use it often.
266710


"I believe the problem with the lee push die is that the new boolit has to push the old boolit out and in so doing it marrs the new boolit head."

After giving this some thought, I have to agree with Ranch1913's statement. I have used Lee sizers and the Perfessor's and they both, to some extent, use the next boolit to push the previous boolit out of the sizer die.

[robg]

lee push through sizer works fine for me,but 223 boolits are fiddly to handle .

[mehavey]

What are you guys doing that requires a "push rod" ?
The Lee Sizer comes with its own push rod that fits onto the ram in place of the shell-holder.


Put push-rod on ram, raise ram to top
Screw Sizer Die down to meet push-rod base
Done.

Put bullet/gc combo on push-rod top
Raise ram--> pushing bullet through sizing ring & simultaneously seating the gc.
There is no pressure on the first bullet [now loose in the die] when pushing the 2nd bullet through.
I have also found there is no need to lube the bullets first -- especially if powder-coating afterword.

I cannot figure out the the complexities here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhQAzV4KeDs

[poppy42]

OK now I get it sorry a little on the dence side here. Try little case lube on the bullets before size them. Wash it off before your PC. If your tumble lubing them the Lee instructions tell you to do a lite coat Of liquid Alox first as a lubricant. That alone should Eliminate a lot of the problem you’re having.

[tomme boy]

Do them in 2 steps if you have to. Size 1st time to just start the crimp. Then 2nd time actually size them the diameter you want. Nose first is the proper way to size. Base first is going to get you a rounded bulged and probably a crooked base. Seating them 1st is the main thing that needs done.