Need a starting baseline (45-70)..

[HawgBonz]

..Hey guys. Been reading... and reading... and reading... I'm not positive, but mebbe gettin an idea where to start to establish a baseline and practice. I don't shoot much at the range anymore. Just enough to work up a useful load for hunting then it's off to the club for some tramping, light plinking and hogs. Don't usually go back unless somethin gets sideways. Not a high volume kinda guy.

..Wanna try big-n-slow-ish this season so I got a 2001 Marlin 1895CB (Oct)26" in 45-70. Prolly didn't really need all that barrel but it's what showed up at the shop and it handled nice so here we go. I've shot competitively(BR, group) and reloaded for ~20 years, but never cast my own. Can't say I'll get into it much more than just makin my own for grins. It's been fun huntin' material down and piddlin with meltin stuff out in the shop thus far. But the formulas and nit-pickery gimme a headache, tho'. Mebbe later I can participate in that asylum.

..Intended current use is for southeastern deer and hog, mostly. Shots are <125 yards, well under usually unless in a cutover which I don't hunt too much. So trajectory isn't much of an issue and if it becomes one it's easy enough to dope that out. I'd like to keep it mild (trapdoor-ish), Was thinkin mebbe 14-1600ish, tops(?), so I can KISS with the PB boolits. Tried a coupla my wrinkly first Pb boolits with the dinky Unique loads. Whot a hoot! I just don't care for all the blast and recoil from full tilt loads anymore. Not gonna get cramped over BR type accuracy, reasonable minute-of-piglet will get me by, for now.

Slugged the barrel and best I can tell it measures to .457 groove.
I've got the Lee 457-405-F and 457-340-F moulds. Both plain base.
Cheap enough for tryin' it and I can buy "big boy" moulds if this is worth keepin going.
I've only cast Pb so far just to see how it went. A dab of Sn made it nicer. Drops right at .457 air cooled.
Not sure what ta do if that needs to be bigger. Wacked one on the nose with a hammer to make sure it was big enough for slugging.
But that doesn't seem like it'd be "condusive to accuracy". ;)

Materials on hand. (not too much of any)
Lead, WW and some pewter, all in nuggets.

Powders on hand: Unique, H4198, H322, H335, 2400, Varget. + more, but those I think I've seen mentioned. Got a pile of H335.
Starline brass and an assortment of LRP's.
Dies are Lee w/FCD.

I know y'all hear this all the time and apologies. Had no idea how much voo-doo casting could entail.
Something real simple but effective to get my feet wet with what I have would be great if possible.
If somebody could rub my nose inna good starting point that'd be appreciated. d:^)

[Wayne Smith]

I don't know your molds and if you want a lighter, less recoil mold I highly recommend the Lyman 457122 Gould hollowpoint. At about 325gr it is a light shooting boolit and well worth the investment. It is my only mold that requires pressure casting, by the way.

[Winger Ed.]

I shoot the 405 in my 26" CB.

Once you get past the antique trap door loads, it gets rather punishing to shoot more than a few times at one sitting.
For hunting; once you have a good/accurate load, know the range and drop, not much will survive getting hit with it.

With the long barrel, I use the slower type powders that are listed in the book.
I figure the pressure curve works like they do and recommend for big bore belted magnums with their longer barrels.
It might be my imagination, but I think the recoil is a little less than with faster powders.

Using what powder you have on hand is fine, but if it was me, and didn't shoot it much,
I'd buy a pound of whatever works best for what you want to do with it.
No matter which one ya select, a pound will load way over 100 rounds anyway.

[RKJ]

I'm shooting a MP Molds 350 Hp/Solid over 50.0 grains of 3031 and Ginex LG Rifle primer in WW and Starline brass. It does kick, but not real bad, and is accurate from my 1895GG. 1 1/2-2" at 100 yards,it would be better (I think) if the rifle had a better trigger. That LEE 340 was a good shooter from my rifle too. I don't have group sizes though.

I just saw I didn't give the size, I size them to .459.

[Mk42gunner]

If you need to make you boolits slightly bigger in diameter, you can beagle your mold with a bit of aluminum duct tape. There are probably thousands of posts on how to do this. A search should show enough threads to keep you entertained for years.

I can agree with not liking recoil anymore, so trapdoor or slightly warmer loads should be plenty at least for deer. Never having shot any wild hogs, I'm not going to give any advice on that subject.

Robert

[44Blam]

I used to shoot a lot of Varget in my 1895 because you can get a boolit moving pretty fast and the recoil impulse is more of a push. But I haven't seen Varget since last year so, I reserve it for my .308. Instead, I got a keg of H335 and I've been shooting that.

I have two NOE molds that I shoot and both are Ranch Dog designs - one is 350 grain and the other is 396 grain.

With H335, I laddered up and found that I could get that 396 round up to around 2000 fps with no problem - except that the recoil impulse was pretty stout. I've since backed it down to about 1800 fps and the recoil is there but it is not nearly as heavy. It can probably be backed down even further with good results.

It does sound like you need a little bigger boolit to keep from leading up your barrel. My rifle is the standard 1895 and is about 5 years old, it slugged just a hair over .458, so I size to .460 and it works nicely.

[HawgBonz]

..I'll try the ones I have first for sure. It'd be great if the H335 would work. I saw that the slower powders generally had higher pressures and somehow in my head I've got that associated with recoil and bullet composition. But it may not be so. The long slow punch vs the short jab? Mebbe? Ever since the BR days I've hated IMR powders cause we used the lil Harrell's powder throwers and it was nasty in those. But mebbe it wouldn't be so bad for this. Really tryin to find somethin that'll work with the Lee dippers. Just 'cause. :lol:
..What alloy works for your situation? Any advice on what alloy I can make with what's on hand for casting that may be compatible with the pressures/sizing and target velocity range?
I've got ~70#'s of Pb. But only 5#'s or so of WW and about the same of Sn.
..I'd not be opposed to buying a coupla pounds of powder to play with if needed. Just tryin to watch costs on this lil experiment till I see how it pans out. Jackets sure were a lot easier. But this is still fun.


I shoot the 405 in my 26" CB.
Once you get past the antique trap door loads, it gets rather punishing to shoot more than a few times at one sitting.
For hunting; once you have a good/accurate load, know the range and drop, not much will survive getting hit with it.


Wayne Smith- I'll check those out if these don't work for me. Thanks!

Mk42gunner-I've seen reference to that in a few of the threads I've read. Kinda hoping to avoid such if I don't need to for the time being. But hey, more to play with if needs be. :)
Hogs aren't that hard ta kill. But for such a "boarish" critter they can be surprisingly stealthy in the eastern woodlands.

RKJ-In reality I would prolly be just fine with the lighter boolits. But seeing as how I got all this case I reckon I'll see what happens with these bigger rocks first. :lol: Kindofa novelty after running <125gr projectiles for years. Could very well be that I end up using the lighter ones after all is said-n-done, tho'. I'm fairly confident that they'd be gracious plenty for what's around here. Been knockin'em down with the much smaller stuff for years. Albeit a LOT faster. Hehehe.
..Good triggers make a big difference with most any gun. We ran 1oz Jewells in competition. Two-5oz in varmint guns. My lil 94 Winny thutty-thutty somehow has a really nice trigger for a lever gun. And it's almost boringly accurate within it's range.

..Thanks much for the replies, fellas! Lookin forward to hearing what alloy I might could get going with what's on hand. Small a batch as it would end up being. :roll:
Will be out scouring the area for WW this week. One tire place told me he got $175 for 3 5 gal buckets of WW.
I dunno bout that racket.. d:^)

[HawgBonz]

I've read a buncha threads that referred to better performance with at least .001 over. Was kinda hopin the Lee's may work out at least till I could get more familiar with this casting gig and see if it's for me.
..Got plenty of Varget. But don't really wanna use it here. My 308 likes it, too. :D
Saw that Hodgdon had an H335 TD load for the 405's at 48gr 1,674fps @ 21,500psi. That's a skosh faster than I was plannin, but if it isn't a bruiser who would complain? Providing it ain't a real ear-splitter. That's why I ditched the hot rod 44 mag SRH. Tough on the ears in the thick.
Mebbe I'll look into this "beagling" thing if there's an issue with the 457's. Or izzit that there's GONNA be an issue and I'm dreamin' that I'll get away with it? :lol:


I used to shoot a lot of Varget in my 1895 because you can get a boolit moving pretty fast and the recoil impulse is more of a push. But I haven't seen Varget since last year so, I reserve it for my .308. Instead, I got a keg of H335 and I've been shooting that.

[lar45]

Beagling is real quick and easy to do.
Get some Aluminum duct tape and some scissors.
Cut a couple of thin strips and put them on the inside sides of the mold halves. Don't get it in the cavities.
This will shim the mold open slightly.
Cast some boolits and measure.
They may be a little out of round, but that's okay. Once the bullet hits the rifling it will all even out.

[Ozark mike]

My favorite trapdoor load is a 46-502p cast @.461 over a case of fffg. This mould produces a. Bullet that meets the 2.550 coal for a 95 action. I also load this bullet over h322 though its my belief that anything over 41 grains is dangerous and i keep em at 40grains. .45 grains is highly compressed and will knock your fillings loose
266706

[fcvan]

To the OP, bought a Lee 405 mold as A buddy asked me to cast him some and gave me some lead in exchange. I don't think you will have trouble with the size mine came out about .457 as cast. Allow was 50/50 WW soft lead. If yours seem undersized you could make them 'fatter' by the air-soft BB tumble powder coat method, that is what I did for his. He had scored an H&R 1971 Handi Rifle, pre 'Remlin' and so preferred .459 boolits. Tumble PC is easy, there is a complete thread describing the various methods and techniques.

A friend's son is a guide out of Jackson Hole WY, and carries a Marlin 1895 as his rifle. It has been said that there is no game in North America that can't be taken with the 45-70, using 'trap door' loads. He carries factory 325 gr ammo which I hear is stout. Many buffalo were taken at ranges of 300 yards because at that distance 'the report was not much different than thunder on the plains' or so I've read.

Still, the 405 at 1250 fps, with open sights (assuming they are about 1/2" above bore line, sighted with a 150 yard zero will be 8" high at its apex of 80 yards, and 12" low at 200 yards. Energy at muzzle 1405 ft/lbs, 100 yards 1065, 200 yards 862.

The 340 at 1400 fps would be 6" high at apex of 80 yards and 12" low at 200 yards, energy at muzzle 1480 ft/lbs, 100 yards 1037, 200 yards 798.

Both of the loads were run through a ballistic calculator. The velocities were an educated guess of slightly above 'trap door' loads, but still within the realm of 1886 and 1895 loads. Slower powder will be more of a push than a smack, should be pleasant to shoot, and these would be load specs I would personally start with for a rifle of your specs.

I have seen videos of folks shooting much heavier rifles, think 30" bbl H&R Buffalo Classic, rounds loaded with the 'holy black' with little felt recoil as opposed to barn burner loads some folks prefer. I think the Marlin 1895 is in some ways comparable to the Sharps Carbine but more knowledgeable folks will chime in on that.

Personally, the loads listed should not be more than the felt recoil of a 12 gauge shotgun to be enjoyable, but will still be effective on game. 1 1/8 oz. is 492 grains, and is used as a comparison. Your heaviest mold is slightly less than an ounce. Anyway, my 2 centavos.

[big bore 99]

I have decent accuracy with the Lee 340. You can try rolling them on a bench with a single cut file to knurl them a little. That will bring the OD up a couple thou. Try paper patching. You have greater options to bring them up in size. I just use cigarette papers. Plenty of info on here for that. Good luck and have fun.

[Wayne Smith]

Alloy - the buffalo were killed off with 16/1 (Sharps) and 20/1 (Remington) loads. That is lead/tin. Anything harder than that is really unnecessary for any load the common shoulder can stand.

[HawgBonz]

To the OP, bought a Lee 405 mold as A buddy asked me to cast him some and gave me some lead in exchange. I don't think you will have trouble with the size mine came out about .457 as cast. Allow was 50/50 WW soft lead. If yours seem undersized you could make them 'fatter' by the air-soft BB tumble powder coat method, that is what I did for his. He had scored an H&R 1971 Handi Rifle, pre 'Remlin' and so preferred .459 boolits. Tumble PC is easy, there is a complete thread describing the various methods and techniques.
.. Thanks for your response. Will try'em first, for sure. If there's anything to the "obturation" thing mebbe higher pressure is my friend? Tried one of my first casts with some H4198 at 30.5gr, a bit under "max" for TD loads, and it was a light push with some rise. But def manageable.
..Will also try that 50/50 WW/Pb as I've seen it mentioned in several places for a basic hunting alloy. Mebbe a pinch of Sn?
I've got zero doubts as to the effectiveness of this 45-70. It's way more than I "need" for anything around here, but there's a fun factor to the big-n-slow. The lil 30-30 Winny would be way more efficient for this area. 'Specially considering lead throughput! But nowhere near as fun. For zero I like to try and keep it within a coupla-few inches for <80 yards as that's the vast majority of the shooting here if I can. For the occasional poke out further and/or "off fur", the 16" full grown deer body height and rangefinder makes for a good hold over assist. :wink: I slapped a Williams Ace in the hole peep/rail on it first thing so I could use a scope for load development and have a useable peep with picatinny for a reflex sight. And for just in case this ends up out at night for hogs with the thermal. Talk about yer elevator-in-an-outhouse! Hehehe. It just "ain't right". :lol:

lar45- I may very well try it if needs be. But @ $22, I may just get one of the Lee .459 dies and try that. Thanks..

Ozark Mike- May try that one as well later if this works out. An even bigger rock with BP could be a hoot! :lol:

big bore 99- Will keep that lil trick in mind. May try PP later down the line, too. Shouldn't be too bigova deal at low volume.


Wayne Smith- "Alloy - the buffalo were killed off with 16/1 (Sharps) and 20/1 (Remington) loads. That is lead/tin. Anything harder than that is really unnecessary for any load the common shoulder can stand."
I could easily try that mix as well. Got more Pb than anything else. And 4-5#'s of Sn. Mebbe that softer alloy would help with obturation to fill the bore (groove)? I know it didn't take too much of a whack with a hammer to fatten up a pure Pb bullet for plugging the barrel. Got a lot extra, point in fact. Plus I ain't talkin bout pushin it overly fast. I wonder what velocity the softer alloy would start to give grief? Thanks.. d:^)

[RKJ]

RKJ-In reality I would prolly be just fine with the lighter boolits. But seeing as how I got all this case I reckon I'll see what happens with these bigger rocks first. Kindofa novely after running <125gr projectiles for years. Could very well be that I end up using the lighter ones after all is said-n-done, tho'. I'm fairly confident that they'd be gracious plenty for what's around here. Been knockin'em down with the much smaller stuff for years. Albeit a LOT faster. Hehehe. ..Good triggers make a big difference with most any gun. We ran 1oz Jewells in competition. Two-5oz in varmint guns. My lil 94 Winny thutty-thutty somehow has a really nice trigger for a lever gun. And it's almost boringly accurate within it's range.

HawgBonz, I started out with the LEE 340 as I got the rifle at WM on clearance (1/2 price) and thought I would flip it for a little $$$, but didn't get a lot of interest on it. So, I figured I'd shoot it and see how I liked it and found I really liked it. :) The LEE was a cheap ($20.00 at the time IIRC) way to cast for it and it shot good so I stayed with it and the lighter bullets. I'm getting better with that trigger as I shoot it more (and it's getting broke in a little) I keep reading of how it's easy to replace the triggers on these (and the Jewell's are highly thought of) but don't think I'm ready to tackle that right now (not sure I trust my ham hock hands). :) Have fun with your rifle, I imagine it'll handle those NC deer pretty well.

[Wayne Smith]

With the 16/1 or 20/1 you should be good up to about 1500fps. Add a touch of superhard (Antimony) and you increase this to about 1700fps. When I was shooting a trapdoor - 520gr Lyman 457125 and a case full of BP - with that light gun and a steel buttplate I bought a PAST pad! That load hurt. I now have an Encore barrel in 45-70 and have molds from a 130 gr collar button to the 457125. 457122 is still my favorite, even though it is a single cavity.

[farmbif]

I don't shoot 45-70 but all the same techniques seem to apply to other straight wall rifle rounds. I never attempted to shoot any cast bullet out of any of my marlins if they are not at least .002 larger than bore. clip on wheel weights with a bit of tin added and 4198 is your friend. other powders will work well too but the 4198's always seem to work well for me in 375 win and 444 marlin

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I have always shot the lightweights, the 300 grain RCBS Flatnose GasCheck was my first choice, I've shot quite a few of the 'cheap' production bullets also. I quit on the heavy bullets long ago when working up heavy loads for elk due to recoil. I have not had issues with leading using available .459 or .460 bullets in the 300 gr range. I have used Unique, RLDR 7, IMR 4227, HS-7 (discontinued), other pistol powders fro 'FUN' shooting. I have 2 1895's an early 1980(?) straight grip that had that curved but plate (now a recoil pad) and and an 1895CB that I will shorten to a button magazine and 23" barrel, and modern soft recoil pad. With proper bullets and a scope I can get groups under 1.5 MOA out to 250 yards, haven tried farther with the friendly loads, wind really widens the group past that. You may need a gas check to get much above 1200 fps with accuracy. A 300 gr flat nose .45 is a very good killer at the shorter ranges (under 150 yards). A softer bullet might help with lighter loads,
bullet fit is the key. The Marlins have a very simple trigger sear setup and the the lever plate can be used to observe sear angle and engagement while stoning without complete reassembly every time. A clean SAFE 3lb or less trigger is obtainable with careful work and no need for after market parts or weakened springs.

[DonHowe]

Big n slow will get the job done but will require self-discipline and HUNTING.

OP: stick to your plan and enjoy. You can get a lot more velocity/energy than TD loads produce but you aren't gonna make a flat shooter of a .45-70, only less high trajectory. But hey, different strokes...

[HawgBonz]

With the 16/1 or 20/1 you should be good up to about 1500fps. Add a touch of superhard (Antimony) and you increase this to about 1700fps.
Just got back from a trip around our little town to the dozen or so tire joints. Seems somebody else in town already has those places wrapped up. So I'll hasta depend on somethin else to harden my lead if I can't get by with 16 or 20:1. Last I read antimony took over 1000* to melt. Not sure I have that with the hot plate or the cooker. Got one of those weed burners that sure seems to put the heat out.

farmbif- If these moulds don't show any promise early on I'll get that Lee 459/405 HB single cavity and try it. I kinda wonder where that extra lead goes when one of those gets squeezed down the tube. Gotta go somewhere. :smile:

DonHowe- I ain't eeeeven tryin ta make this big rockchucker a "flat shooter". That's just marketing hype to begin with. Every single firearm ever used throws a parabolic curve. :mrgreen:

MostlyLeverGuns-Always the wind. Bigger diameter bullet, more surface to use as a "sail". Kinda like a big skiff for an inside boat. Gets blown all over!
Gonna try these big rocks while there's still some novelty to it.
Will talk to ya s'more bout that trigger later..

RKJ- Fun is what this rig is all about! Sure as Hades don't "need" it. d:^)