Expectations for and the cost of accuracy

[Wm Cook]

There was a nice string a while back that asked a question about the value vs cost difference between a Lee 4 die set for (I think) 9mm and Redding. That was a good read and a couple opinions popped up. One being that “they all go bang when you pull the trigger, so what’s the problem” and the other was “If it’s a four and one group” it’s a pattern and not a group.

I have to admit I’m in the latter’s camp. My belief is that all boolits should go through the same hole. If they don’t it's because of 1) the nut behind the trigger, 2) wind, 3) the platform can’t do it in its current configuration or it could be a host of other things that could range from load components, lack of load development, seating depth, powder choice, scope power, scope quality, parallax, bench techniques and many more things.

Other than the nut behind the trigger and wind most of the rest can be sorted out with money and developing your handloading skill. Now some rifles are a whole lot easier than others to get you to shooting consistent small groups. Case in point is my Ruger 77/22 K Hornet. I’ve done most everything I can to it including, bedding, re-chambering, triggers job, bolt springs, bolt shims etc. and the best I could get was MOA. But to me that rifle was more fun than I can describe. I had many MANY hours playing with various cast bullets, powders, primers and seating depth to get that sub sonic MOA I was looking for. It wasn’t quick but puzzles like that for me are a challenge and not seen as a problem. Sure it would have been a slam dunk with the CZ but that wouldn’t have given me the hours of experimentation and education that the Ruger gave me. I guess you can tell by now that I am retired.

In fact for me, it’s somewhat anticlimactic when I get a new firearm and load development is a fairly quick affair. An example is my old varmint 700 BDL from the mid 90’s. Originally chambered in .223, and shortly after a .223 AI barrel was added. On a whim last year I had it converted to a switch bolt so I could shoot .308 bolt face as well as the .223 bolt face. I bought a (new) take-off stock OEM .308 varmint barrel and a bolt from PTG. Bing bang boom, a combination of the NOE 165-FN-H3, Bullseye, seated on the lands and I wind up with 1,083 fps, 5.5 to 7.0 SD and sub MOA. As a disclaimer this rig’s been glass bedded, it has a Jewell hunter trigger that breaks at 1 ¼ lbs., I shoot over flags and this rifle and the rifle and I have a long history together.

But I read in the earlier mentioned post that many of us are perfectly happy hearing the “bang” of the fired round, feel the recoil and then hear the “clang” sound of lead hitting a steel plate. I lean heavily towards reading the wind, bench technique, load development where the objective is to be able to shoot five, five shot groups that agg in the teens. But I'm now starting to understand that there’s room between the extremes for accuracy expectations. I guess I’m just trying to say that accuracy is relevant.

Which brings us back to the original topic which is about the cost and expectation of accuracy: The past couple months my interest has shifted into areas other than benchrest competition. The firearms coming in include a Ruger Mini 30 and a Ruger 9mm PC Carbine. Neither are benchrest platforms.

And as I sorted through reloading equipment and the munitions that I needed to buy to feed both rifles the Lee Precision company kept coming into focus.

I didn’t hesitate with the Ruger M30 and went for the Redding neck sizing die, Wilson seater, Wilson case trimmer, Lapua brass etc. etc. Old habits die hard. When I went to the 9mm PC I took a right hand turn. First came 1500 pieces of range brass from Graf’s, 1,500 pieces of Laser Cast’s 124 grain RN for quick gratification and a 124 grain HP mold from MP Mold’s. That was soon followed with a Lee Classic turret press. Why a turret press? Well handgun reloading always mixes me up. With all of the flaring, crimping and such required I just thought that all four dies on a single press dedicated to a single caliber made sense. Price was reasonable and I could get the press up and running for less than $150 with the Lee four die set. But when I bought the Lee turret press the worm really turned. With the press came the Lee catalog and I was surprised to see the innovation that Lee has brought to the market with very cost effective reloading equipment.

As I said, when I bought the press I had no intention of using it as true turret press to mass produce 9mm, but after seeing the range of products (and their prices) Lee has from their powder measures, primer seater and such I kind of got the itch to assemble a functioning turret press as it is designed to do. And I was impressed that other than the heating coil for their casting pots everything seems to be made here in the US. It’s hard for me to say that there are options to in line seaters, handloading for sub .0xx MOA groups and adjusting seating depth a few thousands at a time but I think this is going to be fun. The Lee is not a Dillon but I’m guessing that it’s decent enough that I can put a few hundred rounds together a lot quicker than I could load them one by one. I know I’m giving up some accuracy but the expectations are smaller when you’re shooting steel plates. I’ll leave the choice of mold manufacturers out of the conversation for now. To me there's still something sacred about projectiles.

Will I tweak seating depth, powder charge, primers and boolits on both the 7.62 M30 and the 9mm PC carbines? Yep. It’s in my blood. I can’t help but chase accuracy. I have a 10 meter range in my shop, both rifles have suppressors and my reloading bench is a few steps away from my shooting bench. If I shoot .25" groups at that distance it'll be no less than 3 to 5 MOA. If I can put five shots under .075 I have a chance that it may be in the 1 to 2 MOA range. And it's really cool to put all five into a .025" group. Don't care if its 10 meters or 100 yards. One hole groups are pretty to look at.

Will I mass produce using the Lee classic turret press on the 9mm and shoot steel plates where the difference between 1 to 3 MOA won’t even be noticed? Yep again. I got a 13 year old grandson that will have a heck of a good time shooting steel with the little 6lb PC suppressed Carbine.

Maybe this pandemic thing is getting to me. The next thing you know I’ll be eating kale and hummus. Bill.

PS. The thought of that powder measure going 360 degrees one lever crank at a time and its ability to drop constant powder charges scares the dickens out of me. Good shooting to all.

[charlie b]

Nice choice, but, now you are going to be 'hooked' :)

Father-in-law and I had Lee turrets for many, many years and learned they were stronger than they look. We even did some minor swaging in them.

Now days I use the Loadmaster. Being able to deprime, size, prime, flare, charge, seat and crimp in one series is addicting. The only part of Lee's setup I didn't like was the bullet feeder. So, I hand place the bullets. Cranking out pistol loads is a breeze.

I had one of their Pro4000 presses as well but gave it to a nephew. Nice little press good for pistol stuff and short rifle (.223).

Lee stuff does take some 'tweaking' sometimes to work smoothly. Tons of resources out there to help.

I load my rifle stuff on the Loadmaster as well and can easily get 1/2MOA ammo. It may be better than that but I am not that good at shooting to be able to tell.

[Mk42gunner]

I was reading along agreeing with most of what you wrote, until the Kale and hummus part. Kale reminds me too much of poke; and I've never been too sure just what hummus is, so I think I'll pass on that.

Lee does have some innovative stuff, its just that some works better than others. I use Lee stuff when it fits the job, in my opinion, other manufacturers when it doesn't quite measure up.

Robert

[dverna]

Shooting, reloading and casting have different drivers for different people. There is no one “right” answer for everyone. The point is to have fun and enjoy the journey.

I know I have been judgmental in the past but now accept that what turns my crank is different....not right or wrong...just different.

I get pleasure from shooting tiny groups and also banging away at a dueling tree. Totally different activities but both fun for me.

I remain a bit of an equipment snob because I do not enjoy tweaking stuff when I have to produce something. Yet own Lee “junk” as well as higher end stuff. The Lee stuff I have works so why invest more than necessary? Would I buy a Lee progressive.?......no. That may be more due to my deficiencies and lack of patience than anything else.

[Wm Cook]

Pretty much agree that it’s a case by case decision. But you have to appreciate their appetite to keep trying new things. Sometimes that can bite you as a manufacturer. As I said I haven’t paid much attention to their products until recently.

When I looked at their powder measures that were compatible with the Classic turret press I found three different styles that had come to market in the past 10 or so years.
I ordered their latest version, then watched more than a couple U Tube video’s on how to skirt some of the issues.

I might be wrong but I think the Redding I have on the shelf is pretty much the same as it’s always been. Maybe I’m wrong on that.

There must be something about the low cost and the hand loaders constant need to tweak things that creates a project within a project.

At any rate I’m gonna give the 9mm setup a good try and let you know how that works.

But I gotta admit I was tempted to buy a second 4 die set to use on my ancient RCBS junior press to work up loads. Can’t see myself changing powder, going up or down a couple tenths, changing seating depth a few times to work up a load.

Dang it! Didn’t take long to fall back into my old habits.

[Wm Cook]

Deverna, I think it was you that laid out the passionate defense of the need for precision equipment and it’s purpose in building accuracy. You stated your position well. That’s why I believe in one hole groups, why I shoot benchrest completion and also why I use Wilson neck sizing and a Wilson in line seater on my K Hornet shooting cast Bullets separated to .1 grain plus/minus .0.

For me this project is kind of like buying a $200 ticket to a carnival ride. It’ll have it’s twist and turns but At least I know I’m guaranteed to come away smarted.

Which at my age might be forgotten only to be repeated in the future.

[charlie b]

I agree. If I wanted to be able to shoot in the teens, then Wilson, Forster, Redding and a good single stage press.

But, right now I do not have the skill or equipment to shoot in the teens. Maybe one of these days I will. Until then the Lee stuff has worked well for me.

But, pistols? I'll use my Lee progressive. Pistols don't need to be MOA :) I don't even weight my pistol loads. The Lee Auto Disk works fine (as would any other measure).

If I had to load more than a couple hundred rounds a week then I'd get a Dillon.

[Hick]

Lots of good points-- and it really is a balance between cost (or effort) and accuracy. For me, I will expend the $ and effort to get so I can hit a 2" or 3" gong at 100 yards without a scope. Beyond that no. Why? Among other things I have plastic replacement lenses in both eyes, which makes it so that the target is sharp and clear but the front sight is a little fuzzy. So, I spend the $ and effort to get the accuracy level that my eyes can handle-- without a scope. I suspect most of us have some limits-- some less and some more. The important thing is that we each pursue our interest to the limit of what gives us pleasure.

[samari46]

I shoot cast bullets in Finnish Moisin Nagant rifles. Outside of flash hole and primer pocket uniforming and trimming that's it. Found that my RCBS 3 die set was oversizing the cases. So whipped up a shorty neck die. Gives me about .003 to .004 neck tension and cut the die so you can slightly bump and set the shoulder back. When everything is working right I get about 2" groups @ 100yds. Which is great for me shooting a Finn model 27 made in 1935. Different strokes for different people. However your goals are what prompted me to respond with my post. Not to be disrespecfull I admire your goals. Check out the Cast bullet association website as they have different classes like BR,lever action,single shot,rifle,pistol and mil surp. Anyway it's all about persuing your goals. I wish you well. And some pretty darned groups have been shot with cast bullets. Have fun. Frank

[charlie b]

One other thing I forgot.

Cost of very accurate reloading is not big. Yes, the Wilson, Forster, etc dies are more expensive. But, a Dillon 650 reloading 1000rnds a week for something like IPSC is a lot more expensive and less accurate.

And, if you go with an inexpensive arbor press and/or single stage, then reloading accurately is pretty inexpensive in the grand scheme of things. Your real expense is in bullets if shooting at longer ranges.

[William Yanda]

I've never been too sure just what hummus is.......

Hummus is just chick peas ground up with perhaps some lemon juice and other flavor additives, from Arab cuisine. Not totally dissimilar to dishes from other cultures-Mexican refried beans, Asain bean paste. Absolutely nothing to fear-except the after effects of ingesting too much.

[Rich/WIS]

Good analysis, have had no problem obtaining stellar accuracy with a single stage press and paying attention to detail. Tiny groups are nice but at some point it is important to realize that some platforms aren't going to produce MOA accuracy no matter what you do. The other side of the coin is the capability of the shooter, suspect a lot of us on the forum due to age, eyesight and other issues are not MOA shooters. My days of competition shooting are miles behind me and all my shooting now is strictly for fun and if I can't shoot nice tiny groups so be it, as long as I can keep within (or come close to) the mechanical accuracy of my rifles and pistols I leave the range happy.

[dverna]

Deverna, I think it was you that laid out the passionate defense of the need for precision equipment and it’s purpose in building accuracy. You stated your position well. That’s why I believe in one hole groups, why I shoot benchrest completion and also why I use Wilson neck sizing and a Wilson in line seater on my K Hornet shooting cast Bullets separated to .1 grain plus/minus .0.

For me this project is kind of like buying a $200 ticket to a carnival ride. It’ll have it’s twist and turns but At least I know I’m guaranteed to come away smarted.

Which at my age might be forgotten only to be repeated in the future.

Different goals are served better by different methods. When I was a poor college kid I invested in what, at the time, was touted as the best press for accurate reloading....a Co-Ax. I was young and drank the Kool-Aid, but 50 years later I still have the press and it has produced sub MOA ammunition for decades. I have no idea if the Lyman single stage (Spar-T??) at 1/3 the price would have done as well. My first reloading tool was a Lee Target Loader. The Co-Ax did not improve on the precision of the ammunition I made, but it was a lot faster. It could be I was not a good enough shooter to discern which one was better.

I will never use a single stage or turret press to produce pistol ammunition. There is no "need" to trade productivity for accuracy in the pistol shooting I have done or will do. I have a lot more invested in the Dillon 1050 to get both speed and reasonable quality than in what it would take to produce the most accurate pistol ammunition in the world. For example, my .38 Spl load shoots 10 shot 1" groups at 30 yards...that is more than "good enough". I can effortlessly load 6-700 rounds/hr. without drama. The only case preparation I do is tumble, check for split necks and done!!! One reason I shoot more .38 in both riffles and pistols than anything else...I am a shooter more than a reloader.

I take a lot more effort in putting together rifle ammunition. I am stupid about it. I do not quit testing loads until I have MOA, and I do that knowing it is a waste of time...LOL. All I do with my .308's is punch a bit of paper and shoot deer. I do not "need" a MOA rifle to harvest deer. My longest shot to date is 275 yards and I limit myself to 400 yards.

I see the quest for accuracy as easily defined....what do we NEED. But it is easy to confuse wants vs needs. And, in the vast majority of cases, it is not an expensive journey. In the case above with my .308's. EVERY group I fired during my testing with two rifles was 2 MOA or better. My favorite hunting location offers a maximum range of 200 yards. 2 MOA is "good enough".

My .223 bolt guns have a different "need" than my AR's.

Applying the "needs" of a varmint gun to a pistol round will result is a longer and more circuitous journey than is needed by most pistol shooters, but for some that is fun. For others, it is a waste of time. Like I said in my first post...both answers work depending on the individual.

The price for accuracy is not expensive in terms of equipment cost. It is expensive in terms of time.

[BigAlofPa.]

I have Lee/Hornady,Lyman and RCBS dies. I been happy with them all. I was shooting golf balls standing up not off the bench yesterday with my Caniks loaded with Lee 4 die set. Accuracy depends on the person behind the trigger. Then ammo quality and platform follow IMO. I load 223 on the Lee classic turret. I can shoot quarter sized groups at 100 yards from my Savage axis. If I was steader in my holds i think they would tighten up. My other rifle loads i did on a single stage press. I recently loaded some 30/30 and 30.06 in my Lyman brass smith turret. It don't have the what call the lift like the Lee turrets have. Still have to shoot and see how they work.

[jsizemore]

If you don't expect much, it probably won't be much. The schuetzen rifles from the past shot some mighty small groups. And how about those 22lr guns slinging lead out to 300 yards.

[fcvan]

I have enjoyed shooting cast for the past 7 or 8 years. Dad loaned my brother and I his sporterized 03A3 with a 4X fixed Weaver, made/modified 50 or so years ago. I have watched Dad put 3 under a quarter all day long, under a dime if everything went well. Anyway, I told Dad I would like to try shooting cast and he said 'go for it.' things went quite well.

I had already been dabbling with cast in 30 Carbine M1 a Ruger SBH. Heck, Dad bought a SAECO mold that cast a 95 gr plain base boolit at .309, but had never used it because the Remington plinkers were so cheap in the 1970s. I also had been casting and shooting for .223 with great results, even greater after I started powder coating.

After a year or two, I bought a few rifles in .308 (M1A, Sig Saur 716 Patrol Rifle, Mossberg Scout Rifle) so my Wife would have options for her own game rifle. The first load tried and worked up in the M1A was strraight forward. I laddered up from starting until full cycling with a 150 grain boolit. Sure, most shoot heavier cast boolits, but also keep them between 1700 - 1900 FPS. My load shoots fine at 2250 fps from each rifle, slightly higher from the M1A due to the longer barrel.

My rifles only see a bench when I regulate the sights or optics. After that, I expect 'minute of soda can' at 100 yards as I have never found a shooting bench when out hunting. I had a buddy who hated shooting his 300 Win Mag for sight-in before season. I told him to shoot from a position he would use in the field, a tree, a rock, shooting sticks, etc. He came back to work and exclaimed his groups were smaller and the range trip more pleasurable. Sure, a lead sled or a bag rest might help, but I've never seen those in the field either.

100 yards is my limit, it takes skill to stalk closer, or a precision firearm/optic for really long shots. I have a buddy who just had to have a new super zapper (his 30 year old rifle shot just fine) and his Wife gave him the go ahead. A few months later, he sent a picture of an Oregon Elk, dead right there, from a 450 yard shot. I have shot with him, he is that good.

My point is, what kind precision do you seek? I think 'minute of soda can' at 100, standing on two feet, is good for me. A soda can puts you in the vitals. Oh, 100 is more of a suggestion, I don't fire from a fixed distance, flat level ground, or own a range finder. The can gets placed or hung near heavy coverage, from a steep grade up or down, so as to simulate having to make the shot with the wind more at your face, the coverage reduced, and the range guestimated. I have had buddies place the can, several actually each painted a different color, call the color of the can, and the improvised range 'hot.' Once, he hung an orange vest to simulate another hunter, further complicating things but making the shooter think.

It is not always around holes on paper. Sometimes it might take a bit of sweat to make the shot, I never saw a covered shooting lane while hunting. Come to think of it, a cold cooler of ice tea was never on the tailgate less than 20 feet away either.

[gwpercle]

You're Overthinking it .
The Hummus is good with pita wedges ...sort of Mid-East dip and chips .
Another name for Chick Peas is Garbonza Beans ...nothing to be scared of .
Gary

[dtknowles]

I've never been too sure just what hummus is.......

Hummus is just chick peas ground up with perhaps some lemon juice and other flavor additives, from Arab cuisine. Not totally dissimilar to dishes from other cultures-Mexican refried beans, Asain bean paste. Absolutely nothing to fear-except the after effects of ingesting too much.

I goes well with raw vegetables and bread. Hummus in a pita with slices of cucumber, tomato, bell peppers, other peppers, yellow squash or zucchini and if you are not Muslim, hamm, bacon bits or slices. It is also a good dip with pita chips or on toast.

[dtknowles]

The is so much variety in shooting sports that of course there is a variety of ways to reload.

Different shooting sports have different accuracy requirements. Some that don't have strict accuracy requirements often need a lot of ammo.

I have some ammo that I load without dies. I have some dies that cost more than a deer rifle.

Tim

[35remington]

Expecting “moa” from a Mini 30 and a 9mm PC carbine is expecting way too much.

Realities having to do with chambers, barrels and accuracy limitations of other sorts mean the most precise loading techniques will not help greatly. Enjoy them for what they are, but accept what they will actually do.