Replacement metal for reloadable cartridges cases meant for extremely high pressure?

[ReloadingNoob]

So I found an interesting thread on another forum talking about a custom BFR in a custom .50 caliber wildcat that is designed for a working pressure of 95k PSI, its a slightly tapered straight walled cartridge, that headspaces off a belt instead of a rim like most revolver cartridges. Would brass still be a viable casing material for pressures that high? Or would you need to make the cases out of a totally different metal? Would there be a metal that could be used in cases for this cartridge that would be re-usable for the common reloader?

Sorry if this thread is in the wrong area.

[Ozark mike]

I think yore leg has been pulled off at the hip. Unless someone knows something i don't. Ultra mags run at 65000 psi

[ReloadingNoob]

Well according to the dude that made it, the material the cylinder is made from is called vascomax 350, and its supposedly good enough for "95k psi and more". I can link the thread on the website in question if that ain't against the rules.

[Ozark mike]

Well if he wants to touch off something like that he can go ahead. I own a bfr in 45-70 and it will sprain wrists ask me how i know thats loaded to ruger #1 pressures. Did you ask him about the rest of the frame or how he plans to deal with primers not to mention case thrust. And ect.....

[ReloadingNoob]

I have no idea, I only read the thread, I didn't participate in it. I was chasing after information on a harder recoiling firearm than a .500 S&W shooting max pressure 700gr loads, found out about .50 Alaskan & 50 B&M Alaskan converted BFR's and then managed to stumble my way into that thread.

[Ozark mike]

I have no idea, I only read the thread, I didn't participate in it. I was chasing after information on a harder recoiling firearm than a .500 S&W shooting max pressure 700gr loads, found out about .50 Alaskan & 50 B&M Alaskan converted BFR's and then managed to stumble my way into that thread.

I have been trying to get my hands on a 500 but everyone i know who has one downloads em. I just wanted to compare mag loads to my bfr but have been unsuccessful. I can tell ya if ya want recoil mine will give it to ya. Besides all ya will get is a flinch out of the deal

[ReloadingNoob]

I have been trying to get my hands on a 500 but everyone i know who has one downloads em. I just wanted to compare mag loads to my bfr but have been unsuccessful. I can tell ya if ya want recoil mine will give it to ya. Besides all ya will get is a flinch out of the deal

What barrel length on that .45-70? How much does it weigh? I have a Performance Center 3.5" bbl 500 S&W that weighs about 3.5lbs unloaded.

[Ozark mike]

7.5 bbl @ 5lbs i use it for grizz and moose but carry it everywhere 500 grn wfn @ 1500 is all i need any more and it starts hurting. Makes my sbh 44 mag 5 inch bbl with 310s seem like a rimfire gun

[M-Tecs]

Traditional brass case design and material would not stand up to those pressures. When the AMU was using the the V-8 load for 5.56 shortly after the 80 Sierra's came out they used LC brass with the harder GI crimped primers. They were running 77K or 78K and the primer pocket were stretched beyond use for second loading.

At 95K with brass I believe pressure welding would become and issue.

[ReloadingNoob]

7.5 bbl @ 5lbs i use it for grizz and moose but carry it everywhere 500 grn wfn @ 1500 is all i need any more and it starts hurting. Makes my sbh 44 mag 5 inch bbl with 310s seem like a rimfire gun

I think the grip shape might contribute a bit to that, I've fired a .44 mag Ruger Blackhawk and that grip angle just sucks IMO.


Traditional brass case design and material would not stand up to those pressures. When the AMU was using the the V-8 load for 5.56 shortly after the 80 Sierra's came out they used LC brass with the harder GI crimped primers. They were running 77K or 78K and the primer pocket were stretched beyond use for second loading.

At 95K with brass I believe pressure welding would become and issue.

Would there be any good replacements for brass cartridges then?

[Ozark mike]

Never had a problem with the plowshare grip kinda perfer it same thing on the bfr just bigger

[ReloadingNoob]

Never had a problem with the plowshare grip kinda perfer it same thing on the bfr just bigger

I don't like em at all, feels weird not having the web of your hand pushed up against the beaver tail of a grip.

[M-Tecs]

Would there be any good replacements for brass cartridges then?

They are taking these up to 80K

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2020/1/20/277-sig-fury-an-inside-look/

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/277-sig-fury-demystified/

[rockrat]

Had a BFR in 45-70 w/10" barrel. Shot real well, but the recoil was more than my hand wanted so it went down the road. My 50 AE BFR has all the recoil I want and more.

[Burnt Fingers]

They are taking these up to 80K

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2020/1/20/277-sig-fury-an-inside-look/

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/277-sig-fury-demystified/

I'm wondering what the barrel life is going to be with that cartridge.

I'm guessing 1000 rounds or less.

[nicholst55]

I'm wondering what the barrel life is going to be with that cartridge.

I'm guessing 1000 rounds or less.

A lot of folks consider rifle barrels to be a consumable item. Many competitive shooters know exactly when they'll have to replace their current barrel to maintain competitive accuracy, and subsequently have replacement barrels prepared in multiples.

[john.k]

Everyday machines use 60,000 psi run through flexible hoses,some hydraulic tensioners use up to 100,000 psi ,so where an application is needed ,materials are developed to cope .

[akajun]

Traditional brass case design and material would not stand up to those pressures. When the AMU was using the the V-8 load for 5.56 shortly after the 80 Sierra's came out they used LC brass with the harder GI crimped primers. They were running 77K or 78K and the primer pocket were stretched beyond use for second loading.

At 95K with brass I believe pressure welding would become and issue.

HAHAHA remember those days, the Army team would leave their brass and that is the only stage where nobody else ( brass rats) would pick it up. For that matter the old 600 yd garand loads too, one and done.

[salty dog]

Well according to the dude that made it, the material the cylinder is made from is called vascomax 350, and its supposedly good enough for "95k psi and more". I can link the thread on the website in question if that ain't against the rules.

Vascomax is very strong and would fail at maybe twice that pressure. But that's not an operating pressure, it's failure. But you're right, the case would be the weak link, and brass wouldn't take it. I would also be nervous about the barrel cylinder gap at pressures a good deal higher than rifles run.

[reddog81]

Well according to the dude that made it, the material the cylinder is made from is called vascomax 350, and its supposedly good enough for "95k psi and more". I can link the thread on the website in question if that ain't against the rules.

Wouldn't make more sense to ask the dude who made it what kind cartridges he is using?

How many max pressure 700 grain loads have you shot?

[Johnch]

I have some 9 MM x 19 that the cases are some type of steel , as a magnet will hold on to a fired case
Not sure of the pressures , but I was told the ammo was for the Navy ... Maybe Seals
But I know the box says in BIG BOLD PRINT not to be fires in any pistol
Also I have seen 175 Gr 9 mm ammo with a 2 piece case
Steel base and brass upper part

So I can see some people wanting to push the pressures up

John

[ReloadingNoob]

Wouldn't make more sense to ask the dude who made it what kind cartridges he is using?

How many max pressure 700 grain loads have you shot?

The guy is German and hasn't posted in like a month, I'm also not a member of that forum. As for your other question, from this wildcat? None. From a bog standard .500 S&W? A box of 20 so far.

[Ozark mike]

If ya like recoil ya could build a .950 jdj dont know if it has been discussed here but ya can find it on the net and youtube. Im pretty sure something like that will knock the recoil junkie right out of ya
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.950_JDJ

[ReloadingNoob]

If ya like recoil ya could build a .950 jdj dont know if it has been discussed here but ya can find it on the net and youtube. Im pretty sure something like that will knock the recoil junkie right out of ya
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.950_JDJ

I'm not sure I could chamber that in a revolver...

[gwrench]

My concern would be the strength of the action. The case is supposed to be the "gasket" that expands and seals when the cartridge is fired. The real strength and integrity has to be the action not just the case itself.

[Texas by God]

A few years ago Brian Pierce had an article in Handloading magazine detailing Dick Casull's work with two-piece cartridge cases. He had designed his own rifles and the cartridge base which was made of steel fit inside the bolt and the bolt fit inside the breach end of the barrel making for a very strong setup. The front brass part of the cartridge had to be malleable enough to expand and seal the chamber and have tension on the neck for the bullet. I dont recall the pressures but if Casull was involved they were UP There.

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[country gent]

The modern brass cartridge case will fail with modern loads first shot , It gets its strength from the close support of the chamber bolt face and action. This support provides the strength. This is why case life is much shorter on chambers that are worn out or excess head space. The lack of full support

[ReloadingNoob]

Well here is a pic of his custom cartridges and from what I'm looking at they appear to be brass. Anyone wanna speculate on why he decided to make them headspace off a belt instead of a rim like normal revolver cartridges?

https://i.imgur.com/wZPJqxP.jpg

[M-Tecs]

more info here https://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/27956/little-bfr

The case heads are either plated or they a one of the very hard types of brass that may not draw out well or an easy machining brass prototype. Normal cartridge brass will not take that pressure. The other issue will be flame cutting on the barrel and frame. S&W had to do significant R&D to deal with the flame cutting issues at 65K

[ReloadingNoob]

Will slow burning rifle powders flame cut at 95k?

[elmacgyver0]

Well here is a pic of his custom cartridges and from what I'm looking at they appear to be brass. Anyone wanna speculate on why he decided to make them headspace off a belt instead of a rim like normal revolver cartridges?

https://i.imgur.com/wZPJqxP.jpg

My guess would be just a gimmick.

[M-Tecs]

Will slow burning rifle powders flame cut at 95k?

Yes....

[Plate plinker]

Yes....

Double yes. Had a guy tell me today about a cartridge that runs 80K PSI. All I could think about was burnt out barrels. No thank you.

[ReloadingNoob]

Yes....

Double yes. Had a guy tell me today about a cartridge that runs 80K PSI. I could think about was burnt out barrels. No thank you.

So flame cutting is a pressure thing and not a powder thing? I didn't know.

[Ozark mike]

Ya wont get 95k in a short bbl with slow powders and i thought i already mentioned this but i guess not case thrust will be a serious problem i dont see a bfr lasting long at that pressure. Make the whole gun out of vascomax and figure out the cartridge problem ya might be able to find away to damage your wrists without blowing yourself up

[ReloadingNoob]

Maybe the rounds are rimless and belted so the clearance between the rear of the cylinder and the breech face is much tighter? Would this be beneficial to brass case survivability with those extreme pressures?

[M-Tecs]

Barrel materials can be changed so they will withstand pressure and heat erosion better. My guess is these materials currently exist but they will be less machinable and more expensive. In a normal rifle barrel there is very minimal gas blow by. Most of the "wear" is actually heat erosion of the throat area. Increased pressure equals increase temperatures. Dwell time also comes into play. In .223 match rifles shooting 80 grain plus bullets usable accuracy life is about a 1/3 or less than the same type rifle shooting 40 grains bullets for prairie dogs even taken into account the high rate of fire PD guns tend to be subject to.

In the case of a revolver 95K of gasses venting at the cylinder gap is going to be a significant hurtle to overcome. I have very limited experience on this subject but I did follow the challenges S&W had with the X-frames at 65K.

I have not doubt much higher pressure rifle cartridges are on the horizon. Not sure if the 500 O&Z Maximum is realistic or not in any platform but with the cylinder gap challenges revolvers all as I can say to the designer is best of luck.

[M-Tecs]

So flame cutting is a pressure thing and not a powder thing? I didn't know.

Both and some powders are noted as being worse for flame cutting and erosion issues than others so types of powders does have an effect but there is no escaping pressure creates heat and pressure will cut steel. Here is a video of nitrogen being used to cut SS. Same for waterjets but they normally have some type of of abrasive in the waterjet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7WViY9H2Oo

[EDG]

A guy who worked on the Abrams tank gun said it operated at 100KSI. Some of those cartridges are consumable and the breech is sealed by a short steel cup. Some of the Sbrsms asmmo produces 5700 fps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_Rh-120

[ReloadingNoob]

Hmm that's interesting, I was under the impression that the 120 operated below 60K psi. I'll have to read about that.

[Ozark mike]

Sounds fishy to me too but i didn't do army stuff jus airforce stuff so i cant be sure

[lar45]

Get a 50BMG single shot bolt action if you need red more recoil.

[ReloadingNoob]

Any .50 BMG single shots that weigh less than 5lbs?

[Ozark mike]

You need to talk to a therapist or go find a gal who can take your mind off of whatever your thinking