38 WCF / 38-40 affair

[bigted]

I have been smitten! My affair with the 38 WCF is blooming into an obsession. Really like the 40 cal. Really like the small 30-30 looking cartridge. Like the shootability and accuracy so far in my old vintage Win 73.

I also like that unlike the 44 WCF, this 40 cal is the same now as it always has been. No messin about with two or three sized bore/bullet diameter. The 38 seems to be powerful enough for our small western Oregon deer and not over the top so as to be an excellent small game round without ruining tasty meat.

Thing is, hardly anybody comments on this dandy round. Loads, loading and experience with this great old cartridge.

I am asking for your experiences with this 38-40 in rifles AND old Colt SAA's ... favorite loads ... favorite boolits ... loading experience's and such.

I even managed to land an old Ideal loading tool that has the boolit mold on the front end. It casts great lookin boolits but all my brass is loaded currently so have not assembled any with it. Very happy to have this vintage old tool that makes a perfect partner with my old vintage Winchester 1873 lever action.

What say yee troops? Anybody else involved with this very cool old round?

[Outpost75]

I have pondered, but ended up building my own 10x25mm Rimmed which is a shortened .38-40 using necked down Starline .44 Russian brass in a couple revolvers and a rook rifle. It does what I want and the necked down .44 Russian brass is more sturdy. The Accurate 40-182H bullet works well for me. It should be a daisy in the .38-40, if you would like to try some send me a PM.

266663

[Jniedbalski]

Looks like a dandy bullet design

[1Hawkeye]

I would say that bullet design over 7.5 grs of unique would be a great load.

[Don McDowell]

It's a pretty sweet round. If I don't load it with black I use bludot.
The Marlin 89 will occasionally give the Marlin jam using the bullets cast from the Ideal loading tool, but feeds the RCBS 180 well.
Loaded with a full charge of 2f black in a model P Colt it doesn't take long to figure out why it was pretty popular back in the day.

[indian joe]

I built mine from an old 32/20
26 inch half round/half octagon barrel, 180grain RCBS cowboy mold, 5 grains 4227 + 30 grains FFFg 266666

Like the 38WCF for the same reasons as Don - plus its the nicest lookin of all the winchester rounds (45/75 is next best)

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Shot my little carbine in a Western Action match today. 170gn Lyman shoots great!

https://i.imgur.com/5cXpWqf.jpg

[smithnframe]

One of my favorite cartridges to handload!

[indian joe]

Shot my little carbine in a Western Action match today. 170gn Lyman shoots great!

https://i.imgur.com/5cXpWqf.jpg

Interesting cartridge box - where are ya? - I know the south burnett a little bit..................
will those old guns shoot black ok for you?

[bigted]

I tried the Lee 175 TC but with no crimp groove, they telescoped back into the case on a few.

Missouri bullets have a good boolit that has the crimp groove for loading smokeless ... my 8.5 grain loads do awesome with this boolit.

Joe, I loaded 38 grains of Old E 3 F but have yet to get out to try em loaded with the Missouri boolits ( they come lubed with smokeless lube so very hot water bath and wiping the lube grooves clean was needed then SPG added to the grooves ). The Lee 175's did great over that same 38 grain load tho. Just don't hold enough lube for my 24 inch barrel so fouling was an issue. Great lookin old 92. Did you bore it out or rebarrel?

Don ... I seemed to remember that you liked the 38 WCF. Do you load Unique in yours?

Outpost, that boolit looks like a winner. It has a generous lube groove and might hold enough for the 24 inch trip thru the barrel. How does it do with the original 38 grain load of 3F powder? PM sent.

BAW ... that is very cool. Always liked button mag 92's. Is that a pair or just the right and left sides of the same rifle? If two rifles ... the patina is almost exactly the same on them. Nice picture

[Don McDowell]

Ted I have loaded unique, 2400, and 5744 but Bludot is my go to if not loading black.

[Outpost75]

I tried the Lee 175 TC but with no crimp groove, they telescoped back into the case on a few...

Outpost, that boolit looks like a winner. It has a generous lube groove and might hold enough for the 24 inch trip thru the barrel. How does it do with the original 38 grain load of 3F powder? PM sent.

In my 10x25mm Rimmed a full case is 22 grains of black, 4.5 grains of Trail Boss or 16 grains of IMR4227. No issues shooting black in the rook rifle, bore is whistle clean with SPG.

266677266678

Velocity tests of 10x25R in 5” Ruger Blackhawk vs. H&R “Bunny Gun” with 22-inch barrel:

Reformed Starline .44 Russian cases, .970-.975”, Remington 2-1/2 primers.

Accurate 40-182H____Ruger 5”___________H&R 22”

LD#9 5.0 Bullseye____1009 fps, 10Sd______1144 fps, 17 Sd
LD#10 4.9 452AA_____not fired_____ _____1082 fps, 17 Sd
LD#11 7.4 AutoComp_1138 fps, 10 Sd______1285 fps, 9 Sd

Accurate 40-220H

LD#5 3.5 Bullseye____760 fps 7 Sd _________832 fps, 18 Sd
LD#9 5.0 Bullseye____949 fps, 10 Sd________1059 fps, 10 Sd
LD#11 7.4 AutoComp_1083 fps, 10 Sd_______1217 fps, 7 Sd

Accurate 40-224H

LD#5 3.5 Bullseye____748 fps, 7 Sd___________
LD#7 3.7 452AA_____not fired in revolver______820 fps, 13 Sd
LD#8 4.1 452AA_____not fired in revolver______903 fps, 8 Sd
LD#10 4.9 452AA____not fired in revolver_____1002, fps 13 Sd
LD#11 5.5 452AA____963 fps, 5 Sd__________1062 fps, 16 Sd
LD#20 16 IMR4227__1091 fps, 18 Sd________1376 fps, 26 Sd

Accurate 40-252H

LD#5 3.5 Bullseye____711 fps, 12 Sd_________783 fps, 27 Sd
LD#7 3.7 452AA______740 fps, 10 Sd________814 fps, 11 Sd
LD#8 4.2 452AA______830 fps, 18 Sd________903 fps, 14 Sd
LD#10 4.9 452AA_____881 fps, 29 Sd________970 fps, 34 Sd
LD#20 16 IMR4227___1084 fps, 12 Sd_______1340 fps, 21 Sd

[Bent Ramrod]

A friend left me a couple Low Walls and a Colt SAA In .38-40, with a couple moulds and a Winchester loading tool, when he died. It was the only “hyphenated” 1873/1892 Winchester caliber I had no previous experience with.

They are accurate shooters, but, as far as I can see, no more accurate than a well-set-up .44-40 rifle or pistol. (The popularity of the .44 Magnum and the long quietus and then resurgence of the .44-40 did kind of derange things for .44-40 shooters.)

The SAA blows the sides of the case out and forward, turning the taper into a true bottleneck. The Low Walls do not do this. Full-length resizing before reloading is necessary in order to to use the ammo in all the guns. Loading is like the .44-40 or .32-20, except for a greater propensity for lube dents in the 38-40 shells. Seating and crimping the standard boolits in the FLS cases with the 1880 Winchester tool is a breeze; very nice, smooth operation. The Winchester mould casts good boolits that don’t need sizing. I have a lot of hoarded SR-4756 that I use; haven’t tried any black powder yet.

[Rick B]

In 38-40, I cast and shoot an Accurate 40-190C. Makes a very good looking loaded round. Has a crimp groove in the proper location for the correct O.A.L. for 1873 and 1892 Winchester’s. Powders such as Bullseye, Unique and 4756 work great. Bore and groove size varies a lot in these older Leverguns. Tom at Accurate Molds produced a mold that casts a .403 bullet for the 1892, A close friend recently acquired a very clean 1873 in 38 WCF. Really looking forward to shooting that one when the Shooting Range restrictions are lifted here. 38 WCF is a fine cartridge
Aesthetically, I have to agree with Indian Joe, the 38 WCF followed by the 45-75 WCF.
Rick

[1Hawkeye]

I also used lee 175gr tc but in a uberti low wall so I didn't have the seating problem.

[Jeff Michel]

I use the Lee crimp die if I shoot their 175 grain SWC. Never had a problem with bullet movement.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Interesting cartridge box - where are ya? - I know the south burnett a little bit..................
will those old guns shoot black ok for you?
A local bloke used to make repro cartridge boxes many years ago, but RIP he is gone now.

I have not tried BP, these rifles are a consequetive 4 digit Serial No. pair (6**2 and 3) made in 1892, been carried a lot but the barrels are near mint.

I live on a farm near Kingaroy, the peanut capital of Australia, and get to shoot most days. Lost part of my trigger finger in an electric planer a few weeks back.

https://i.imgur.com/EZMoozyt.jpg

[indian joe]

A local bloke used to make repro cartridge boxes many years ago, but RIP he is gone now.

I have not tried BP, these rifles are a consequetive 4 digit Serial No. pair (6**2 and 3) made in 1892, been carried a lot but the barrels are near mint.

I live on a farm near Kingaroy, the peanut capital of Australia, and get to shoot most days. Lost part of my trigger finger in an electric planer a few weeks back.

https://i.imgur.com/EZMoozyt.jpg

If we get borders open I will be up through there working - sorry about the finger - I put a saw blade through my right achilles tendon almost a year ago(clean cut to the bone) so I kinda know the feeling -
four digit serial numbers is special (I have one in the 84,000 range) but a pigeon pair that low ---wow!

[rockrat]

I picked up a '92 win, kinda rough on the outside, but bore was pristine. I had Tom at Accurate molds make me a 205gr swc type boolit that casts @.402". I size them in a slightly opened up .401" that came out to .4015" which is perfect for my gun. Open sights and my eyes make for 1"-1.5" @ 50yds, which I am happy with.

[indian joe]

I picked up a '92 win, kinda rough on the outside, but bore was pristine. I had Tom at Accurate molds make me a 205gr swc type boolit that casts @.402". I size them in a slightly opened up .401" that came out to .4015" which is perfect for my gun. Open sights and my eyes make for 1"-1.5" @ 50yds, which I am happy with.

I use a RCBS cowboy mold - like the boolit and it shoots fine - but they drop eggshaped by about 4thou - 404x408 - I use a .406 size die mostly to knock the bumps off the base and firm the lube in the groove - barrel goes .401 with a roundball slug but its a flat crown - tends to shave the ball and then the slug is a bit slack proly add .0015 to that
Softish alloy shooting oversized has never been a problem at my place .

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

Outpost
I don't have the time but your post gave me an idea for a project....
That 10X25R round would make an excellent cartridge for Lever Action Silhouette. That cartridge in a carbine with a short action/short receiver would be a winning combination.

A man can dream can't he?

David

[Outpost75]

Outpost
I don't have the time but your post gave me an idea for a project....
That 10X25R round would make an excellent cartridge for Lever Action Silhouette. That cartridge in a carbine with a short action/short receiver would be a winning combination.

A man can dream can't he?

David

John Taylor has the chamber reamer and die reamer I had made. I'm sure that he can make that happen.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=bigted;4968153]I tried the Lee 175 TC but with no crimp groove, they telescoped back into the case on a few.

Missouri bullets have a good boolit that has the crimp groove for loading smokeless ... my 8.5 grain loads do awesome with this boolit.

Joe, I loaded 38 grains of Old E 3 F but have yet to get out to try em loaded with the Missouri boolits ( they come lubed with smokeless lube so very hot water bath and wiping the lube grooves clean was needed then SPG added to the grooves ). The Lee 175's did great over that same 38 grain load tho. Just don't hold enough lube for my 24 inch barrel so fouling was an issue. Great lookin old 92. Did you bore it out or rebarrel?

Ted ---sorry -- I missed this - yes rebarrel - 26 inch - shortened forend - octagon section is 12" and the round 14" - standard winchester profile they said - but I seen all shapes and sizes so I think "standard" was whatever you ordered.

[Eddie Southgate]

[QUOTE=bigted;4968153]I tried the Lee 175 TC but with no crimp groove, they telescoped back into the case on a few.

Missouri bullets have a good boolit that has the crimp groove for loading smokeless ... my 8.5 grain loads do awesome with this boolit.

Joe, I loaded 38 grains of Old E 3 F but have yet to get out to try em loaded with the Missouri boolits ( they come lubed with smokeless lube so very hot water bath and wiping the lube grooves clean was needed then SPG added to the grooves ). The Lee 175's did great over that same 38 grain load tho. Just don't hold enough lube for my 24 inch barrel so fouling was an issue. Great lookin old 92. Did you bore it out or rebarrel?

Ted ---sorry -- I missed this - yes rebarrel - 26 inch - shortened forend - octagon section is 12" and the round 14" - standard winchester profile they said - but I seen all shapes and sizes so I think "standard" was whatever you ordered.

What else besides the barrel did you have to change going from .32 WCF to the .38 WCF ?

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=indian joe;4972416]

What else besides the barrel did you have to change going from .32 WCF to the .38 WCF ?

everything :smile: but it was fun and I learnt a bunch of stuff
The only parts I didnt alter in some way was the lever, the hammer bottom tang/trigger assembly, and locking bolts.

Its a pretty major project

[NyFirefighter357]

I ran into an 1873 chambered in 38 WCF at my LGS last week along with a a 30 WCF. I had never seen a trapdoor or a saddle ring carbine in person. Surly the spoils of a deceased collector. They didn't have any price tags and I was afraid to ask. Neither are common here.

[Hdskip]

my 38/40 is a Winchester lowwall, purchased in Denver Colorado in the 1890s by my great grand father. it shoots pretty well with my reloads . I also have a Uberti Cattleman to carry with it. Fun duo would be a gross understatemen
t

[Eddie Southgate]

[QUOTE=Eddie Southgate;4989011]

everything :smile: but it was fun and I learnt a bunch of stuff
The only parts I didnt alter in some way was the lever, the hammer bottom tang/trigger assembly, and locking bolts.

Its a pretty major project

That's what I was afraid of . I see lots of 25-20 and 32-20 rifles under $1000 but hardly ever see one in 38-40 or 44-40 in that range . I got a 1st gen Colt in 38-40 but no rifle to match .

[flint45]

I would love to have a nice little model 92 in .38-40wcf and a Colt new service with a 5 1/2 inch barrel in same .