Need an edumacatshun on casting for a 223.

[Rickf1985]

As the supply of ready made bullets disappears and shows no sign of returning any time soon I am looking at casting for my 223. I have the equipment for 30 cal rifle and many pistol calipers but I do not have anything at all for the 223. My sizer/luber is a VERY old Lyman that my dad had, all of the stuff is actually. So I need to know just what I would need to get to go from liquid lead to shooting lead from my AR-15. I have read a couple posts that I could find and I am seeing a lot of confusing information, that is why I am asking this directly. The lead I plan to use is the Lyman #2 direct from Rotometals. I need to know what you would use to size and lube the bullets since the sizer I have is so old it does not have provisions for heat. From what I can see just about all of the lubes require heat anymore. Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

Rick

[country gent]

Basically the added tools would be 1) a mould in 22 cal in a design you want. 2) a sizer in the desired dia for your sizer or a lee push thru. Other wise you pots ladles and other equipment will work fine. THe big part is the learning curve of the new mould caliber and loading

[Outpost75]

This Fouling Shot article is a bit dated, but contains good basic info:

Cast in an AR? You Betcha! – By C.E. Ed Harris

If you reload for an AR platform, you know that ordinary 55-grain FMJ component bullets cost 10+ cents each when you buy in bulk, 1000-up quantities, IF you can find any. Rifle powder today costs upwards of $30 a pound if you even can find any. A pound of powder loads about 270 5.56 rounds, so you are looking at about 11 cents per round just for the powder. Buying 8 pound caddies can save you a little bit, again, if you can find any.

Primers cost about $35+ per thousand, again, if you can find them.... So you are exceeding 25 cents per pop just in component costs to reload your "free" range pickup brass. That doesn't consider amortization of dies or equipment or put a value on your time to load the stuff. But it is lots better than $1+ per pop for factory stuff when you cannot find any...

An option is to load cast bullets! In a 5.56mm? Are you nuts?

Well, my neighbor is a retired Fed LEO who learned “what works” by reading the gleanings from Internet postings of well-known, experienced shooters, which shortened his learning curve. The Cast Bullet Association forum has several threads on this topic:

https://castbulletassoc.org/forum/cat/ar-platform/

My buddy has been shooting cast in his Colt LE M4 clone for several years now. His has a 16" barrel with military 5.56 chamber. The 5.56 chamber is larger in the neck and throat diameters than the .223 Remington. The M4 gas port is only 8" from the bolt face. QuickLoad, estimates port pressure of minimum loads which cycle loads at ~ 12000 PSI. which is as low as you can go with (about 15 grains) of RL7 to work the action reliably. After 2,000+ rounds of testing function and accuracy is better than the cheap Russian Tula FMJ ball ammo, the gas system shows no problems at all and the gun runs as cleaner with his cast reloads than with imported Tula ammo. The best use of cast loads is to preserve your expensive factory stuff for serious work.... using reloads for practice and casual shooting to save your Zombie Hoard!

He followed the advice of others, casting hard bullets, blending linotype from Roto Metals and wheel weights 50-50, running his mold hot enough so that bullets drop uniformly frosted, then quenching the bullets in water direct from the mold. Gas checks are crimped on in a .225” sizing die so that the driving bands of the bullet are not sized at all. Bullets are seated as far out as they can be and still chamber freely, load into and feed reliably from the magazine. His barrel twist is 1 in 9".

Until recently he hadn’t tried any other powder than RL 7, because he keeps that around to load in his .30-30 and 7.62x39, which he also load casts for. Velocity is 2120 fps using 15 grs. of RL7 and the RCBS 2-Cavity Bullet Mold 22-055-SP 22 Caliber (225 Diameter) 55 Grain Semi-Point Gas Check. This load performs well considering the generous military chamber dimensions. The major problem with shooting cast lead in AR's is their fast twist barrels in current rifles and their sloppy military chambers. Most folks who give up on cast in their ARs do so because they don't understand that the bullet surface which engraves ~ .002" deep simply does not have adequate shear strength to spin the bullet up in such a short distance without slipping the lands and damaging the bullet's integrity. Slow the load down to the minimum which cycles the action reliably, about 2100-2200 fps for most rifles, and they will shoot even better than steel cased Russian ball!

Computer modeling of slower powders such as Varget through QuickLoad, bullets lighter than about 70 grains, don't develop adequate port pressure at suitable velocities successfully useable with cast bullets. Harder, quenched bullets can be driven 2400 fps without leading, but accuracy is best in the older 12-inch twist barrels, which limit you to flat based bullets no heavier than about 65 grains. In 9" and faster twists stay below 2200 fps.

The computer-generated curves predicting pressure vs. bullet travel show that RL7 has the best characteristics to reliably function. Piezometric efficiency is almost 100% with the powder being fully burned in a 16 inch barrel. A standard 20" length AR barrel is harder to make "work" as its gas port is further down the barrel than it is on the M4.

Before the weather turned cold two winters ago we did some accuracy testing in his M4 with his “standard load" of 15 grs. of RL 7 and the 55 gr. RCBS bullet, for which the double cavity molds are commonly available, and putting a scope on the rifle. Five-shot groups off sandbags at 100 yards averaged well under two inches in aggregate and were more accurate than the junky Tula FMJs.

An LE visiting the Peacemaker Training Center from DC brought his agency-issue Colt Military/law enforcement model with 7-inch twist barrel. We were pleasantly surprised to see it shoot a one hole 10-shot group of 3/4 inch at 25 yards. The load of 15 grains RL7 would occasionally would short recoil, ejecting the spent casing but without feeding another round. Additional experiments with a 60-grain Saeco mold and 18 grains of H322 or IMR 3031 clocked 2100+ fps and cycled with no signs of leading. Bullets were lubricated with Lee 50/50 Alox-beeswax. Adequate bullet diameter, not less than .225" is critical to accuracy.

Load the largest bullet diameter that will chamber /function.

Bullets must be of adequate hardness, not less than commercial 92-6-2 “hardball” alloy or 50-50 linotype and wheel weights, especially above 2200 fps.

Heavier loads of slower powders such as Varget or 4895 may be needed to boost port pressure in full-length 20-inch ARs.

To load cast bullets without damage you MUST inside chamfer case mouths with a shallow-angle Lyman "VLD" deburring tool, and slightly bell the case mouths with a Lyman "M" die - so that the bullet can be hand started into the case mouth up to the top of its gas check and then be seated smoothly into the neck without risk of shaving lead. Then, during the seating operation apply a light taper crimp to remove any mouth flare, but not a heavy crimp which will deform the bullet.

Also drop-check all rounds 100% in a maximum length cartridge gage to ensure that they will chamber and extract freely. This is the same as required for any cast bullet load to be used in any semi-auto, AK, Garand, M1 carbine, M1911A1, etc.

There are heavier custom molds available up to 75 grains, optimized for the 5.56mm military chamber, but I have no personal experience with them. Users on other forums report reliable functioning with 18 grains of IMR4895 or Varget for about 2000 fps with the MiHec 75-grain "NATO" bullet.

[fcvan]

My go-to is 50/50 WW and soft range scrap or straight lead. My 2 molds are a Lyman 225-415 RF (Lee now makes a clone) and an NOE 225-62 RN which is plain based and slick sided just for powder coating. The Lyman is gas checked and shoots great from the AR 15. The NOE needs a bit harder Alloy, probably straight WW I think in order to maintain a higher gas pressure pulse for a Carbine length gas port. I have an AR 15 Pistol with a pistol length gas port which shoots just fine.

While I would not recommend this, I did play with reducing a few coils from the buffer spring to improve cycling. It worked but I only use that spring when I am using that NOE boolit which is only installed at the range. I change it back to stock when I clean the weapon, at the range. That way the rifle is always good for factory rounds when in the safe. Most of the time, I shoot the Mini 14 which cycles fine with the NOE, and shoot a 9mm AR 15 most often.

I have a set of dies for making .223 gas checks, but a member here sells them rather inexpensively by the 1000s. I have 10 lbs cast from the Lyman, and 20 lbs cast from the NOE. Not running out any time soon. I prefer the NOE because tumble lubing and baking is less bother than making and installing checks. BTW, I get 2250 fps from the 16" rifles, 2450 from a 24" single shot, using only PC.

You should check out Rocky Mountain Reloading, they sell .223 bullets they make, and some that are Sierra pull downs. They just ran a big sale and the only thing in stock is .224 90 Gr. Sierra Match King Hollow Point Boat Tail Bullets at $64 for 250, $215 for 1000, I just checked. With social distancing and the massive shipping they haven't been making new inventory. According to a recent email from them,

"We had just under 5 million bullets in stock. . . Turns out you guys pretty much completely bought us out the first week. . . For example, yesterday we bagged about 500k 55 grain fmj and most of them will ship today. . . We can expedite the in-stock stuff if you absolutely need it for a match or something, but if you can wait it will help keep us at the packaging table and more orders will go out."

They are not a big shop and only in recent years have they started swaging their own bullets. However, their customer service has been outstanding for me.

Back to casting, I used the Lyman mold for my first AR 15 build some years ago for my Wife, I built mine later. I took that milspec AR to the range, ran 40 rounds of factory for break in, and then shot the cast boolits. I used a book load of 4227 out of the Lyman manual and kept 5 in an inch at 100 yards. The gas check makes a difference, a harder alloy will make a difference with the NOE mold.

I like the Lyman design and might buy a Lee copy and make it plain based, but I doubt it. I might even try to make plain based gas checks from soda can aluminum, but I doubt that as well. I'll just shoot up what I have in the Mini 14 or the single shot, cast some harder ones for the AR 15, and PC them a different color to differentiate between loads. I hope this helped some.

[rancher1913]

you can do cast in the ar but you will have gas tube problems sooner or later. I got a set of btsimple dies and make my own 55grain hollow points out of 22lr brass, best investment I ever did.

[Conditor22]

Welcome to Cast boolits Rickf1985
Lyman #2 will work, you'll need to buy some gas checks
I'd look into powder coating, eliminate the need for dad's old lube / sizer (IF dad has 224 sizing dies for the lube sizer you can use it to size powdercoated boolits.

[Rickf1985]

The 223 was not even around when he was reloading in the late 50's. He never owned any 223 guns so he never got into that. Does the powder coating replace the need for lube? I have worked with a lot of things that were powder coated and I certainly did not feel it would make a good lubricant. The old sizer/luber is a Lyman #45. I took it all apart and cleaned it all up and it is all there and appears to work. I have the sizing dies for 30 cal, 38 special, 45 ACP, 45 Colt and one other I can't remember. I have no problem buying a new sizer, I just want to get what I need before I start melting lead. Personally I have never reloaded cast buulets. I have only done jacketed. I have the stuff and I know the basics but there are things I need to know. For instance even though I have all of my dads reloading stuff I do not see anything as far as a case mouth expander. From what I have read this is pretty much a necessity unless you want to use the needle nose pliers method. That may have been what dad used? I have no idea. I know I used to shoot the 168 grain lead bullets from the 03A3 and they were very accurate but my memory of the reloading process of them is a blank.

[WRideout]

Lee makes a universal mouth expander that I use frequently. Others here use and like the Lyman "M" dies and similar for expanding case mouths; there is plenty of info in other subforums. I was having trouble with my .223 bolt gun, and was advised by others to check for runout on those tiny cartridges by rolling them on a flat surface.

Wayne

[waksupi]

Something I will say about the .223, when you get into bullets of this size, it is important to weigh them if you want the best accuracy.

[guy_with_boolits]

I started a thread which compiles .223 loading data for AR's in one place

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?405422-The-cast-223-5-56-for-AR-load-data-compilation-thread

I have bought all the equipment but not even started yet. Remember if you want to re-use 5.56 brass you will need to do something about the primer pocket crimp

[Rickf1985]

I started a thread which compiles .223 loading data for AR's in one place

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?405422-The-cast-223-5-56-for-AR-load-data-compilation-thread

I have bought all the equipment but not even started yet. Remember if you want to re-use 5.56 brass you will need to do something about the primer pocket crimp

I have the crimps down to a science. I prefer to get the crimped brass, that way I know for a fact it is really ONCE fired. I ream the crimps and I built a couple of fixtures from wood blocks to hold the cases while I run them under a drill press with an RCBS reamer and very gently touch each one. 64 cases per block and right now I have two blocks. I can do 128 cases in about 2 1/2 minutes then another couple minutes to pop them out using a mini pry bar I modified that grabs the lip of the case and lifts it just enough to pop it loose.