HP Boolits and harder lead

[Wolfdog91]

So was curious if anyone new how well hollow point boolits made from a harder lead (say 20 bhn) do on game like wild hogs.

[rking22]

Probably depends on how you got the hardness, and what weight and caliber. I have used water dropped 96:2:2 alloy made from reclaim shot as a base. Has good bit of arsenic 35 caliber 217 grain hp, killed fine. I generally air cool that alloy for hunting but ran out and used the water dropped on a couple deer. I would not use something like Lino or 92:6:2 as a hollow point, too brittle and would just explode the hp off the nose. If there was still plenty of bullet it would be effective but destructive on deer. On hogs you would really be better off with a solid if that type alloy. So, it depends, in general no.

[OS OK]

I've been doing lots of work with the HP's...experimenting with different shapes of cavities, lead blends and such.
Haven't got into the rifle cast HP's yet, just pistol and velocities below 1K FPS.
I've accumulated lots of data and pictures to share...this is my Y-Tube site if you care to look.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi5mfCQYNW1hfrgepvqCDsg/videos?view_as=subscriber

Hollow points are a 'RabbitHole' unto themselves ... a subject as deep as you want to take it.

[reloader28]

IMO 20bhn is too hard for a hollow point, period of any kind unless you want a frangible varmint boolit.
With little experience with hogs but with alotta testing with cast boolits I would say a cup point with around 10-11 bhn would be very good for hogs

[waco]

This^^^^^

[Markopolo]

yea... too hard.. the goal is penetration, and a big wound channel. softer alloy would do that fine.

[bishopgrandpa]

The remarks here about Lino being "fragile" and "exploding" are absolute nonsense and come from reading to many gun magazines. It is to hard from my EXPERIENCE to use for HP's. I started casting when I had to learn by myself using a Lyman manual. Lino was going out and was cheap so I bought all I could from print houses no longer using it and cast from 38's to 45's. Never had one come apart or "explode" on the range or on deer. We don't have hogs here in the Adirondacks of New York but don't see where that would be a problem. I have used mainly 45-70's for many years and have pass thrus 95% of the time and have never seen signs of "exploding. I use a 385 grain WFN now but used to use the Gould HP which shoot accurately but never opened up with lino. I now use a 10:1 alloy at 1450 fps and still get pass thrus. At that speed the GOULD will open some but I use mostly the WFN now. I am 81 years old and have the experience to back up what I have said . We get to wrapped up in this HP vs solids. Try them and get your own experience. That way you will know for sure and remember it longer for future use. There is much good info here but to be sure, find out by going to the range or in the field and learn for yourself.

[mdi]

I scanned OS OK's site and I agree with his findings, basically you don't need/want hard bullets. In the one video I watched all the way through he was using bullets with less then 10 BHN and getting excellent expansion...

Thanks OK...

[Tripplebeards]

If you took at some of my old posts I shot 3 deer with Lyman devastors with a BH of 15.4 loaded at 1750 fps. None epanded and put bullet diamter exits in the hides. Two out of the three ran over a 100 yards with zero to little blood. All were heart and lung shots. The one I did drop on the spot the boolit shattered the deer's ribs on the way in causing tons of kentic energy transfer. The other two that ran my boolits slipped.through the ribs on the way in. I switched over to 7.8 by alloy for my devaststors and 10.4 bh for my 35 rem HP cast boolits at 2100fps. Good old 100% wheel weight alloy works well for our Austrain hog killer with the 44 mag Lyman devastator HP.
I've seen pics of the noses that shredded the pedals and the base perfectly in tact like a partition after recovered from several hogs he shot.

Here's my post with 15.4 BH HPs and pics of the deer I shot with them...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?373867-First-deer(s)-with-cast-boolits!-Used-my-devastators!!!

[mnewcomb59]

With a 4-4-92 alloy, NOE 452 254 gr cup point, 1300 fps impact velocity I see the mushroom shear off in 5 chunks. The main bullet shank weighs 198 gr and has a .390 flat meplat and penetrates 7 jugs. 5 fragments are seen 1/4" to 1" away from main bullet path until jugs 5 and 6.

I was very surprised at the penetration of the fragments. They are pretty big chunks.

This is mini Nosler partition performance with 80% weight retention and a hard flat nosed shank for deep-ish penetration. A hard 250 flat nose will penetrate 11 jugs at 1100 fps and the soft lead HP and cup point with 100% weight retention only penetrate 3 jugs, so this should be a balanced middle ground load with bigger damage than a flat point and more penetration than the 80 cal mushroom. I plan to try to shoot a few deer with it this year. My only worry is that I will make a clean shot and a fragment will turn it into a gut shot.

The launch velocity is around 1750 fps so this represents 125 yard performance. Up close the 4-4-92 shank mushrooms slightly from the higher velocity but we still get 30-30 170 grain core-lokt class of penetration with 6 jugs.

[ACC]

IMO 20bhn is too hard for a hollow point, period of any kind unless you want a frangible varmint boolit.
With little experience with hogs but with alotta testing with cast boolits I would say a cup point with around 10-11 bhn would be very good for hogs

I have seen that that is the case. I have been trying to get a mix that is 9.0 to 9.5 to take into consideration over time hardening. Any cast bullet in my findings will not expand. Since the .357 has a limited amount of energy I want the boolit to leave all of it in the animal.

ACC

[Tripplebeards]

Here is a 16:1 pewter and pure lead mix. Its BH is 7.8. It was recovered from first back stop at 25 yards. It hit a rock and broke off the one pedal. It was a 44 mag Lyman devastator with a muzzle velocity of 1600 fps. It started out at 263 grains and this slug weighed 174 grains. It's the alloy I use now after my 80/20 plus 15% pewter 15.4 BH HP alloy didn't expand on deer at 1750 fps.

https://i.imgur.com/UYONUUm.jpg

https://imgur.com/a/74ewTZ0

https://i.imgur.com/vYFIXGm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MyPlJHP.jpg

[Nueces]

The remarks here about Lino being "fragile" and "exploding" are absolute nonsense and come from reading to many gun magazines. It is to hard from my EXPERIENCE to use for HP's. I started casting when I had to learn by myself using a Lyman manual. Lino was going out and was cheap so I bought all I could from print houses no longer using it and cast from 38's to 45's. Never had one come apart or "explode" on the range or on deer. We don't have hogs here in the Adirondacks of New York but don't see where that would be a problem. I have used mainly 45-70's for many years and have pass thrus 95% of the time and have never seen signs of "exploding. I use a 385 grain WFN now but used to use the Gould HP which shoot accurately but never opened up with lino. I now use a 10:1 alloy at 1450 fps and still get pass thrus. At that speed the GOULD will open some but I use mostly the WFN now. I am 81 years old and have the experience to back up what I have said . We get to wrapped up in this HP vs solids. Try them and get your own experience. That way you will know for sure and remember it longer for future use. There is much good info here but to be sure, find out by going to the range or in the field and learn for yourself.

I don't know what is different about my early efforts, but my experience with the Gould bullet cast in lino is opposite yours. Nearly 50 years ago, I used data from a Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets (1st edition) to make 45-70 loads for my Marlin 1895. Gould 457122HPs over 16 grains of Unique. Lyman max charge was 19 grains. My only use of these loads on game was on running Texas jackrabbits, which exploded into wet carpets upon impact. Ranges were short, about 10 to 15 yards, as I swung and shot when they broke cover nearly at my feet.

I expect my velocities may have been higher than yours. Also my mould came directly from Lyman, an older box, with a very deep hollow point.

[gwpercle]

Too hard and the alloy is brittle...instead of expanding at the hollow point the metal just shatters .
I've seen good results in 30-30 with a mix 50-50 of clip on wheel weights and soft lead , air cooled .
The hollow point mushrooms to something like a J-word bullet .
Look at the "hunting with cb " section , lots of first hand experience and photo's there .
Gary

[mnewcomb59]

Penetration kills, but a bullet that exits the animal with 3/4 of its energy left makes a small hole.

I have found that it is really easy to get 100% weight retention up to 2200 fps, but it is very often a shallow penetrating bullet.

Some of my favorite 357 rifle deer killing loads had a little bit of the mushroom shear off. If you have a smaller parachute you gain back some penetration.

The Ranch Dog 140 pure WW with no tin mushroomed to 53 cal from 1500-2100 fps and had 90% weight retention. This load penetrated 5 jugs. Same load with 2-2-96 mushroomed to 68 cal with 100% weight retention but penetrated only 3 jugs and gave me no pass through and a 200+ yard tracking job. Then I killed 4 or 5 deer with the WW bullets with golfball sized wounds and exits on broadside and slightly quartered shots.

What I am trying to say is don't be afraid to experiment with harder lead in your hollow points if you are not getting the penetration you want from softer lead that holds together and makes a huge mushroom.

My 4-4-92 alloy example above has pretty decent penetration with a 200 gr hard shank with a .390 meplat after 50 gr of the nose blows off.

I have cast 3-3-94 and 3.5-3.5-93 bullets this week and intend to test them at 1300 fps like I did with the 4-4-92.

I would like to see 100% weight retention with a smaller mushroom than 80 cal, or 90% weight retention with a smaller mushroom than 80 cal like the soft alloys give me. I would like more retained weight and more mushroom on the shank than a .39 flat spot like the 4-4-92 gave me. Hopefully one of these alloys give me something between the two extremes. I am gonna let them harden for about a week then shoot some jugs.

[Doughty]

bishopgrandpa

I'm not 81, but I have had EXPERIENCE with lino and HOGS. Many years ago, using a book load of 2400 and a Lyman 240ish grain .44 bullet cast in lino in a 5 1/2" Ruger Blackhawk, I shot an approximate 200 lb. hog in the left shoulder at a distance of about 35 yards. At the shot, the hog spun and disappeared into a nearby ravine. Having shot other hogs, under similar conditions, but with a .45 auto and factory hollow points, I waited about 10 minutes, then dropped into the ravine myself. I found quite a bit of blood and bone fragments, but no hog. I begin following a trail of blood, bone fragments and tracks. The bone fragments were clearly from the scapula. The bone, then blood, soon disappeared leaving only tracks in the ravine bottom. I follow for about an hour until I ran out of light. I was back at that spot at first light with a friend who could track and an Airedale. I went ahead with the Airedale while my friend followed the tracks. The Airedale found the last pinpoint of blood almost a mile from where I had made the shot. I hoped that in the next days the buzzards would lead me to the hog, but, no luck.

About 2 weeks later I shot another similar sized hog at about a hundred yards with a WW cast bullet out of a Ruger #3 in .375 Winchester. The hog took off disappearing over a rise in the land after about 100 yds of run. I and my young sons slowly followed up and found the hog just over the rise of land, down but still alive. I could see that the bullet had penetrated both sides of the ribs. I had the afore described revolver and load with me. I fired another round into the hog trying to hit the same area of the shoulder that I had hit on the previous hog. I hit a little high. The hog died.

At home upon a close examination I discovered that the last bullet had not exited. I cut into the area looking for the bullet. The bullet had entered at the top edge of the scapula, headed toward the spine, but there was no bullet. There were a few pea sized clumps of lino, quite a bit of what I would describe as sand spread through a rough cone of tissue of about 3 inches in diameter. The spine was cracked but not penetrate through. There were smears of lino on the bone of the spine.

Maybe not fitting a technical definition of explosion, but then I don't know what better term would be used. I have not used lino on any other animals. The rest of the .44 rounds were shot at paper which they penetrated with excellent performance.

Wolfdog91
I think 20 bhn would be good in a solid, of oven tempered WWs, striking at 1800 fps or better. A shallow HP might help some, but in my opinion not worth the effort. We used a Lyman 311041 of this alloy with a shallow HP at 2000 fps muzzle velocity when hunting local Whitetail deer.

[USSR]

Since the .357 has a limited amount of energy I want the boolit to leave all of it in the animal.



...a bullet that exits the animal with 3/4 of its energy left makes a small hole.

There seems to be a misconception among some that some mythical "energy" is involved in the lethality of a load, such as is calculated by bullet weight times the square of the bullet velocity divided by 450,437, and it is deposited into whatever the bullet is penetrating. This is not the case - it is merely a mathematical formula. What determines the lethality of a load, aside from where the the bullet penetration takes place, is a large wound channel causing a large destruction of blood vessels and, importantly, a large exit hole to promote rapid blood loss and a rapid drop in blood pressure. A bullet that fails to completely penetrate an animal (and therefor according to some, deposits all it's energy into the animal), is a bullet failure, regardless of the what the bullet energy mathematical calculation is. Just MHO.

Don

[mnewcomb59]

There seems to be a misconception among some that some mythical "energy" is involved in the lethality of a load, such as is calculated by bullet weight times the square of the bullet velocity divided by 450,437, and it is deposited into whatever the bullet is penetrating. This is not the case - it is merely a mathematical formula. What determines the lethality of a load, aside from where the the bullet penetration takes place, is a large wound channel causing a large destruction of blood vessels and, importantly, a large exit hole to promote rapid blood loss and a rapid drop in blood pressure. A bullet that fails to completely penetrate an animal (and therefor according to some, deposits all it's energy into the animal), is a bullet failure, regardless of the what the bullet energy mathematical calculation is. Just MHO.

Don

Don't misconstrue my words by editing my quote. Penetration is the most important factor in big game performance. Once you have enough for a pass through on hard quartering shots or both shoulders, you have enough. If you had decent reading skills you would have read how I don't recommend loads that don't pass through deer, and my methodical process to calibrate my hunting ammo. Instead you insulted me.

Also, why did you even make a post on this thread? The question was " how well hollow point boolits made from a harder lead (say 20 bhn) do on game like wild hogs.", not "tell us if you believe in physics, or whether you think energy is mythical". What experience do you have shooting animals with hard alloy hollow points?

A hard 45-70 500 gr bullet makes no larger wound than a 200 grain hard 45 acp bullet when they both hit at 1100 fps. The 45-70 could kill 5 deer in a row and the 45 Pistol two. You could probably let the 200 gr mushroom to 55 cal and still pass through at 400 fps, but the 500 grainer could mushroom to an inch and still pass through at 400 fps. This is how 2.5x energy makes 2.5x the volume of permanent wound channel.

Advanced members of the board seek to get expansion while still having the ability to pass through their intended game on a hard quarter or through both shoulders. Most people on here would never recommend hunting with a load that won't break both shoulders or pass through on a hard quartering shot.

Don't edit my words and misconstrue my statements. If you care to learn, here is a basic video. If you don't, please block me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y

[USSR]

What experience do you have shooting animals with hard alloy hollow points?

I have enough experience to know enough not to create hard alloy hollow points, since the result will not be good. As for editing your quote, the words are yours and I quoted you exactly. Sorry you got your knickers all bunched up.

Don

[MT Gianni]

The best way is to imitate Bob Hagels bullet testing box. Take your bullet and fire it into a 12"x 12" x 60" plywood box that has dividers every 12". In between the dividers alternate river sand and wet newspaper. I believe Bob used 1/4" plywood with a removable cardboard piece to track expansion. Adjust the velocity to your expected impact velocity.

[mnewcomb59]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quoting_out_of_context

As a straw man argument, it involves quoting an opponent out of context in order to misrepresent their position (typically to make it seem more simplistic or extreme) in order to make it easier to refute. It is common in politics.

Begone troll. You have added nothing useful and nobody cares to see your opinion.

[USSR]

Sorry, mnewcomb59, but I have every right to give my opinion. You don't like it, then challenge it on it's merits.

Don