Need Some Help From The Group...TC Hawken Salvation

[Themoose]

My brother-in-law recently passed away... when going through his Dad's guns my nephew found the TC 50 Hawken his dad had built from a kit years ago.. he was just a little squirt and "helped" his dad with the kit by handing parts and mostly watching... anyway as a boy he had the opportunity to take several nice whitetail with the rifle... fast forward to today.. he was disheartened to find that his dad had left it uncleaned for years and asked if I could help restore it... I spent over a week, soaking in Kroil, scrubbing and got most of the rust out, but the barrel was severely pitted. Luckily I live in central PA and only about an hour for Bob Hoyt's shop and took it to him... Bob was able to rebore the barrel, but now it is about a .508... I tried paper patching some of my plains bullets running @460 grains with poor accuracy results..... tried a 580 grain bullet and the 1:48 twist was not enough to stabilize the bullet with two out of three key-holing @ 50 yards... Round balls are not an option, he lives in Idaho and wants to use it for big game.

I am now in the process of trying to "beagle" a couple of molds to increase size to .510, but that is going to take about .006"... seems like a lot...

I did try knurling my current bullets to increase diameter, but still not enough.. now contemplating powder coating too to increase size and may have to do all(beagle, knurl, and powder coat) to get them there.

Do any of you have any .510 plains style or minie bullets running around 400 grains that I could buy to try? Know of anyone who could make a mold? I found that NOE did make a hollow base in .510, but that is out of stock...

Any and all advise is welcomed... my goal is to get the rifle back in his hands so he can kill an elk or deer in Idaho this fall...it would make this Uncle feel like he is helping in some small way. By the way, I did offer to replace his barrel with mine or buy another, but he does not want that.. he wants to keep the original because it was his dad's.

Thanks for reading and offering any and all suggestions.

Kindest regards,
TheMoose

[bigted]

Couple things come to mind here.

If Bobby Hoyt reamed it enough to clean it up ... did he happen to deepen the rifling? If so, the original Hawkens bros all or most had the 1 in 48 inch twist but deeper than the TC's. If the rifling is deeper then the round ball will stabilize just fine.

Nother point is hunting big game with round balls ... these round balls of pure lead have knocked down everything to be had on the north American continent. They will continue doing so if taken within the range appropriate to the accuracy of the rifle. Balls flatten inside flesh and cause devastating damage to the animal.

Shallow grooves in 48 inch twist will stabilise the longer boolits but if they are deepened, they will lead the bore and be very inaccurate. Sounds like Bobby made deep grooves for round ball loads and probably heavy charges too.

Groove size of .508 should take a .500 ball with fair heavy patching. Might try a .495 and some .025 inch thick pillow ticking or denim washed and dryed twice for as tight a thread as possible. If they load pretty easy , try a .030 inch thick patch. This should work well with good lube such as mink oil or animal lard. I have used unsalted Crisco to good affect as well.

Check your rifling depth to be able to figure out what will work best.

To check, take a couple taped up sections of steel or brass round stalk and put them in your barrel first [ these should slide easy back n forth in the barrel ] followed by greasing the muzzle and pounding in a 58 cal PURE LEAD ball so it is even with the muzzle. Now take your barrel and turning it to allow the round stock to hammer the pounded ball back out of the barrel. Catch this pounded ball in your hand so it sustains no damage.

Now measure the depth of the rifling as well as the diameter of both the bore and the groove. Subtract bore from groove and divide by 2 to get your rifling depth.

Now this is all from the fevered brain matter of a tired ol log hauler sooo ... it is worth every penny you paid for it.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

A custom mold?
Re-bore again to a larger caliber?
Have you tried the LEE REAL bullet?
Aren't balls allowed for big game hunting where you live? It would be O.K. here, and they'll certainly do the job. Just ask Jerimiah Johnson.
Use a sabot?
E-bay and Gunbroker seem to do a brisk business in T/C parts. Maybe a new barrel?

[longcruise]

Lee has a mold for the 50-70 https://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-515-450f.html it drops at 515 but you can easily hone a 501 Lee push through sizer.

The other option is to go back to hoyt and have it bored to 54. Rifled for a 54 conical or 54 ball it would be adequate for deer and elk.

[pietro]

Round balls are not an option, he lives in Idaho and wants to use it for big game.




Patched round bores are legal hunting projectiles in Idaho ( https://idfg.idaho.gov/hunt/weapons/muzzleloader )

PRB's were all the mountain men had in the early 1800's, and in 50 or 54 cal perform very satisfactorily on big game (I would have had Bobby ream it out to .54cal)

.

[Edward]

Bob has done several 54 fast and slow twist and they do well !/Ed

[Themoose]

thanks for the solutions offered....I guess I should have given more info in my post... When taking the rifle to Bobby Hoyt, I didn't tell him what I wanted done to it... I asked him what should be done... I did suggest boring it to 54. he recommended against that... Mr. Hoyt also suggested that I try the paper patch method...I know of and respect his reputation for being a great expert in this area.

Thanks for the info on the round balls being legal in Idaho... my nephew just moved there about a year ago and was under the impression that he could not use them for elk... if it works the round ball would be an easy solution..I have a .490 mold and .495 balls are easy enough to find to try. Thanks for the info about the 50-70 bullet... I think Lee actually makes a push thru sizer for .510... the weight of 515grs was more that I was looking for, but I may be able to find a few bullets to try first instead of having to buy both mold and sizer just to try them.

thanks again gents

[725]

Hoyt just did the same for me. Rusted barrel and he "refreshed" it. Now I have a .558 x .578 round bottom groove. I took it home and had to lap it to remove the sharp edges of the rifling. (Normal). I was shooting an actual .540 ball and the patches were cut so bad the accuracy was toast. I haven't had the chance to get back out with the newly lapped barrel yet. I also have obtained some 28 ga. over powder cards and some 28 ga. cushioned pre-lubed wads to experiment with. I plan on trying varying thickness of patch, cards, and wads to see if any of them give me some accuracy. Just some "for what it's worth" advice, I'd lap the barrel with some Flitz and a tight cloth cleaning rag on a shotgun cleaning rod. I did 700 in & out passes to lap mine. Seems to have taken care of the sharp rifling issue that always comes with a re-bore. I had to do many this way. QUESTION: How did your patches look after you fired it? If they were cut or blown apart, I'd bet lapping would help. Then start the experimentation with patches & wads with your round balls. Tanner makes custom RB molds (actually, his son, now) which have been excellent. Also, Marty's Molds (I may be wrong here with the name - I haven't dealt with him yet) is said to be good. I plan on ordering a new mold from him soon. Heard about him on this site.
Good luck.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’d say best option is either round ball with heavy patch or go for a larger rebore.

[mooman76]

I was going to recommend going with rebore 54 (more suited for elk) but Hoyt seems to be the expert. He could try some Lee REALS with an over powder wad or go with a 495 RB mould. They even make a .500 mould if you can find one. If you add a little tin to the lead it will come out slightly larger. 50 wouldn't be my first choice for elk size game but still doable.

[scattershot]

Maybe something like the Hornady Great Plains bullet, paper patched to match the bore. 370 grains should do the trick.

[bedbugbilly]

I have the Lee 50/70 mold referred to above - came with a Smith carbine I bought - but I think that it would be quite a bit to size down for what you need. I'd also opt for a RB ad thicker patch first and see how it shoots - if it shoots well - and your nephew still wants a plain base or hollow base conical - then possibly having Accurate cut one might be a good way to go? I believe he can make hollow base molds but he doesn't make the base pin - you'd have to have someone else make it. If the bore is .508 and you needed a larger round ball (I don't remember if Ideal/Lyman made a .498 or not) - then you could get Jeff Tanner to make a RB mold in the size you needed. I'm kind of in the same boat right now - I need a specific size round ball for a project and I just can't find the mold so am going to probably have Jeff Tanner make one up.

Good luck - you did a nice thing for your nephew and I'm sure he appreciates it.

[mooman76]

I'd check the hunting regs too. They might allow RBs but 50s may not be big enough for elk there. I know they weren't in UT when I was there many years ago.

[pietro]

.

Track of the Wolf carries .509" round pure lead balls, that may help you out until you can get a mold:

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Item.aspx/127/3



Track also carries a .512" conical, but is a shortie, designed for a 1:66 twist:

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Item.aspx/129/1




Track also carries a Lee .515" conical mold:

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1196/1/LEE-90266



.

[country gent]

Other options once you find the bullet would be, 1) buy the mould in standard size and lap it to desired dia unlike beagling lapping will increase size and done with care and correctly improve roundness. .006-.007 would be about upper limit and take a little time to do but is achievable. 2) order a special size from accurate , noe, or one of the custom makers in the desired alloy. Other than lead time to make its not that big an added cost.

[mooman76]

What about wrapping aluminum tape around the bottom half of a REAL? Might be worth a try.

[T-Bird]

Green Mountain makes a drop in barrel for T/C Hawken in a roundball twist in 50 and 54 cal. I got one in 54, mine shoots very well. Cost is $250ish It's also 32 in long which I like.

[Themoose]

Thanks one and all for your suggestions... for clarification... for sentimental reasons my nephew does not want another barrel.... I just got finished slugging both his and my barrel that I had Bob Hoyt "freshen"(I think that's the term... he basically removed enough metal to get past any pitting...) I am not able to measure the bullets accurately to know how deep the grooves are, but there is a significant difference in diameters in the two barrels.. at the largest diameter(I would think this is the bottom of the grooves) His barrel slugs between .513-.514 and mine .509-510..
I tried beagling, but didn't gain much, same for the knurling... got material to powder coat, but am rethinking that... I think mine will be good to go as is... but will have to take it to the range to verify... thinking the best course of action for his is to send slugged bullets to custom mold maker providing him with the twist(1-48), alloy(soft(nearly pure lead)) and ask him for suggested style and weight... thinking the the length will be factor with slower twist.. so should plan on having bullet(hunting) somewhere 350-460 grains... does that sound feasible?

Any recommendations on the maker... I have had good luck with LBT and NOE molds, but don't know if Veral is still making them or black powder specific molds... not sure if NOE does custom work... haven't tried Accurate, but have heard good words about him.

Thanks again to all who have assisted in this project.
Kindest regards,
TheMoose

[Wayne Smith]

Or go to MountainMolds.com and design your own. Always an option.

[triggerhappy243]

I am wondering why bobby did not reccomend relining the barrel back to 50 cal.

[arcticap]

His barrel slugs between .513-.514 and mine .509-510.

IMO you may be giving up too quickly to find a potentially suitable bullet.

The .500 Linebaugh uses bullets in the range of .511 - .512
The Montana Bullet Works sells .500 Linebaugh bullets in the standard sizing options of .510, .511 or .512.
These weigh .450 grains and are made with "medium" cast lead.
"Medium" cast would mean that only a small fraction of the surface of the bullet would need to be in contact with the rifling in order to be engraved enough to not be stripped when fired.
Yes, they may be a little difficult to load, but you should be able to find a way since precision long range ML shooters load jacketed bore size bullets.
Many of them use an adjustable sizing die, but that may not be necessary and not all of them do.

The Hornady FBP bullets are jacketed and are made slightly oversized to be loaded in the muzzle.
The main difference is that they have a hollow base for expansion. --->>> https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/hornady-fpb-muzzleloader-bullets-300-350-grain-bullets.html

There's even a way to try to add a hollow base to bullets by drilling a hole into the base using a drill press.
And by using more than one size drill, you could create a stepped hollow base, whether it was done in 1, 2 or 3 steps.

These .500 Linebaugh bullets may be able to be knurled or rasped to help make loading easier, or to bump them up, or both.
Either way, the Montana Bullets are sold in a quantity as low as 50. --->>> https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/500-linebaugh-lbt-450gr-swc-k/

They can also be ordered with SPG black powder lube.
Check out their bullet information page: --->>> https://www.montanabulletworks.com/bullet-information/pistol-bullets/
They will even resize your bullets smaller if you ordered the wrong size, but you would be responsible for shipping.

Grizzly Bullets also sells two different .511 diameter bullets.
One weighs .435 grains and has a gas check, the other weighs 525 grains. --->>>https://www.grizzlycartridge.com/shop/cast-performance-bullets/511-435gr-wfngc-511-dia-50-count/

Gad's Custom Cartridges sells .50 - 70 bullets with a diameter of .513 @ 450 grains, and also two different bullets with a diameter of .515 that both weigh 350 grains that are labeled the .56 - 50 Original and the .56 - 50 Taylor.
See the cast bullet chart and the corresponding photo of the bullets that's labeled Table 4: --->>> http://gadcustomcartridges.com

It would be nice if you could find a bullet weight range that shoot accurately.

[Butler Ford]

Paper patch the bullet

[Ozark mike]

Accurate molds are expensive but the best as far as i am concerned this is just one example of what he has out of many or you can design your own
266707

[arcticap]

I see that Whyte Leather Works sells a 400 grain ML conical that's sized @ .511 and lubed.
He lists them in a box of 250 bullets for $55.
I wonder if he would sell a lesser quantity since he ships some bullets in a small flat rate box for $7.50.
Perhaps it's worth an inquiry to see if you can get some to try out.
Who would want to order 250 bullets without trying them out first?
Mr. Whyte is well known among cowboy shooters.

Bullet page: http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

Home Page with contact info.: http://www.whyteleatherworks.com

Mark Whyte
5557 Bobbywood Ave
San Jose, Ca 95124
408 356-5031

[KCSO]

Take a lyman 515 and size it down in a push through sizer. I can send you a few for a sample if you want they are 515 and lubed with B/P lube.

[arcticap]

Take a lyman 515 and size it down in a push through sizer. I can send you a few for a sample if you want they are 515 and lubed with B/P lube.

I'm curious, which Lyman bullet mold it is.
Is it the 350 grain .515 RNFP bullet for the 56 - 50 Spencer and 50 - 110 Winchester?
--->>> https://www.buffaloarms.com/515-350-grn-rnfp-lyman-1-cav-mould-515139-lym2640139

[megasupermagnum]

Lee sells a .500" ball mold. Done and done, legal and effective for all 50 states.

[Themoose]

Just an update, ordered sample .511 bullets from Whyte Leather...also found I had two old TV .50 Maxiball molds....now in the process of trying to lap the more worn one...cast,lap,clean recast, lap and clean, repeat...on third cycle and got about.001

[LAGS]

I lap molds using Zinc to cast a slug with a Stem on it.
Then I lap the mold by hand turning the stem on the slug by hand.
It doesn't take long to lap a mold out .001"
So far I have lapped out at least 10 molds from like .308 to up to .316 for shooting in rifles with oversized bores.

[Themoose]

Zinc? Interesting...where can you get zinc?

[LAGS]

Zinc Wheel weights.
I don't throw anything away.
I use lead Wheel Weights to cast slugs for my centerfires.
There are always a ton of ones marked or that are Zinc mixed in with the lead weights.
I also cast up blocks of Zinc , to be used for drilling fixtures or vise jaws.
You can get what you need probably for free at any tire shop or junk yard.
In the past , I have also cast Trigger Guards and Butt Plates for Rifles that I built

[LAGS]

I am following this thread closely because I have two more .50 cal TC barrels that I am going to send to Mr.
Hoyt.
The barrels I sent to him in the past were in very poor condition.
I had them Relined or Rebored to a larger caliber.
But the two latest barrels are in Fair condition with minor pitting.
I am debating if I should have them Refreshed or just pay to have them Relined.
The biggest issue I have is.
If they are Refreshed , then they retain the 1 in 48 twist rate.
I prefer a Slower twist for Round Balls and in the past never had much luck shooting Conicals in the factory shallow groove barrels in 1:48 twist.
But I am wondering if the deeper grooves will help the 1:48 twist will improve accuracy with Conicals.

[mooman76]

Conicals generally do better in a shallow groove barrel.

[LAGS]

Thank you.
If I end up getting these two barrels Refreshed , then I will plan on using them for mostly Round Balls.
I already have two .54 TC's with the original barrels in good shape that I can shoot Conicals out of if I ever get drawn for Elk again.
And have a GPR with a Hunter Barrel in .50 that Would be good for deer with a conical.
But I am still interested in how the refreshed barrels this thread is about work out for the OP

[Themoose]

THANKS AGAIN TO ALL FOR YOUR EXPERIENCE AND IDEAS... MY PROBLEM HAS BEEN RESOLVED. I completed the project(to my satisfaction anyway). I did seven passes at lapping and took it to the range today... my old eyes and iron sights are an issue, but shooting @ 50 yards I managed to get a respectable group...the bullet now starts firmly and is engraved by the rifling... should not be an issue coming off the powder charge... am casting up a quantity and sending to my nephew along with the mold... gave him instructions on how it was done just in case he wants a little larger diameter.. also sending him the sample .511 bullets ordered for him to try.. it is his rifle and he can be the judge if that will work for him. He could still knurl with a file if he prefers to increase the diameter.... this turned out to be an education for me... guess I'm not too old to learn after all... a sincere thank you to one and all.

Kindest regards,

TheMoose

[LAGS]

Yes , this has been an education for many of us.
Good luck , and hope his rifle shoots as well as yours did.
You just saved me some money.
I will have these barrels Refreshed instead of Lined to a slower twist