Niko camera photos of my new Sharps 1874 Montana Rough Rider-PHOTO HEAVY

[Big Mak]

And a question.
After measure Ogive, I made a dummy bullet (no powder, primer) and noticed the starline brass would not fit the chamber. These cases were used in my springfield trapdoor and I fixed the issue by doing a resizing full body length, then they fit the Sharps chamber fine!
After primering and belling the mouths, I proceded in making 20 test loads.
65 gr (*by volume, then trickle by weight) Old Enysford 2F black powder
.030 greased veggie wad
Compressed with a Montana Compression die .090
520 gr BACO "Money Bullet" compressed the load further by .100
Taper crimped ever so slightly to eliminate the bell (so they would fit the chamber)
Wiped their butts and chambered each load to insure they *fit*

Q1: The next time I load these 'fired' pieces of brass, as I understand it I should NOT resize, but merely deprime, clean, primer, bell the mouth and load it with wad,powder and bullet and slight crimp to remove the belling. This should technically "fit" the chamber without having to resize, Correct???

Finished cartridge is last photo.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-TSh8nBh/0/95c0e63a/X3/i-TSh8nBh-X3.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-9KbnhM5/0/a9d84fa2/X3/i-9KbnhM5-X3.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-mSghPh2/0/91a0bdb8/X2/i-mSghPh2-X2.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-d48g5bj/0/fa3c60a4/X2/i-d48g5bj-X2.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-wfsXw2V/0/4579cb27/X3/i-wfsXw2V-X3.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-xbzmJX3/0/528ef206/X3/i-xbzmJX3-X3.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-QSwrX7N/0/419581bc/X3/i-QSwrX7N-X3.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-PRvfbV3/0/f7b793a7/X3/i-PRvfbV3-X3.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-qtt7GS2/0/151ea730/L/i-qtt7GS2-L.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-LCqBnwZ/0/bbe64920/XL/i-LCqBnwZ-XL.jpg

Background:
A 2 year wait for this custom build as I ordered it when I retired in 2018. Picked it up a week ago from Tuesday.

I cast my own 520 gr bullets using a BACO "Money Bullet" mold. 20/1 lead.

Caliber: 45/70
Barrel: 30" heavy Octagonal
Wood: Semi-fancy Walnut
Buttplate: Traditional Steel
Metal Finish: Pack hardened
Brass Escutcheons
Fireblued polish screws
Custom bedding
Custom long range sightsby Steve Baldwin: rear Vernier Tang and bubble-leveled globe front with interchangeable silhouette patterns.

[Maven]

Nice rifle and beautiful photography, Big Mak!

[smoked turkey]

Whew! That is extra nice Big Mak. I agree. Your pictures are very nice. I'll bet as nice as they are, the rifle is nicer in "person". From the pictures and write up it looks like you are ready for a test run. Be sure and let us know how she does. It will be awesome I just know. Congratulations on a beautiful rifle. You deserve it.

[725]

Best photos and rifle I've seen. Congrats.

[Hiwall55]

Yep, the next time load should work, I bell the cases to make sure the bullet fits, then compression die, hand seat bullets. Make sure your brass is clean, I use ceramic media and
Soap. Good shooting.

[smithnframe]

Very nice!

[bedbugbilly]

Fantastic photos and WOW! What a beautiful rifle! Love the casehardening and the wood is super select!

[Bent Ramrod]

That is a pretty gun, all right!

You should be able to use the shells without resizing next time. If the case mouths are properly chamfered, they may not need belling either. The expanded cases might need a grain or so more powder to seat the boolit to the same depth. If everything is right, the boolits should go into the cases with a twist and push, and stay there with careful handling. Sometimes seating will compress the air in the case and push the boolit back up until it leaks out, but a plastic cartridge box of the proper height should keep everything together when the lid is closed.

After many loadings, the cartridges may begin to get hard to push into the chamber. I generally FLS and expand and bell them when this happens. I myself haven’t really seen significant accuracy differences between FLS and fireformed shells. Of course, the Shiloh chambers are minimum size, unlike those of Trapdoors, that had to keep firing, no matter how fouled the chambers and bores.

[EDG]

Spectacular color case on the metal parts.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I would first like to say, that is a beautiful rifle and you cast great bullets. I will tel you what I have found to be the easier way to size the case. I never bell the case mouth. I expand it with either a Lyman "M" die or one I have made. It makes reloading much easier and never misaligned the cast bullet.

[Big Mak]

Thanks fellas, and thanks for the answer to the Q I had from several of you.

I figured the Trapdoor had a much larger chamber than the tolerance of the Sharps.

[Big Mak]

When I look at some old 45/70 bullets, they used to crimp the hell outta them.
Here is my cast 500 gr boolit I cast next to a bullet that had an 1887 stamp on the bottom of it.

[Big Mak]

A couple more oldies, 500 and 405 grain I presume.

[Big Mak]

Last photo, I believe these were copper cartridges, but they're not balloon type.
The box is simply for effect. They did not come out of this box.

[MikeT]

You must keep in mind, the target loads you are probably building are not in need of the crimp because they will not be subjected to the same "rough handling" as military ammo.
Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

[Big Mak]

You must keep in mind, the target loads you are probably building are not in need of the crimp because they will not be subjected to the same "rough handling" as military ammo.
Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

Roger wilco!

[Texas by God]

That gun is too nice to shoot. Simply gorgeous.
I’m kidding about the shooting part- 2 years waiting to hear it roar? Let Er rip.

[hiram]

Art work

[Gunlaker]

Very nice!

A few things I'd suggest trying as you experiment would be:

1. do all of your compression with the die and none with the bullet.
2. try an unlubed wad. I've always been happy with a 0.060" LDPE wad.
3. get your case mouth expansion sorted out so you don't have to do a taper crimp at all. I usually load a couple of thousand rounds a year for my Shiloh's and I've never used any sort of crimp. Basically you want to eliminate even the smallest possibility of deforming the bullet in any of your reloading steps.

As far as sized vs. unsized cases go, I find you can get superb accuracy either way. Often with the .45-70 the cases will shorten 0.010" or so upon firing so they might come out a little shorter than you like. If that's the case then try to use a bullet that, when seated all the way out, has some lube groove showing at the case mouth. If you decide you'd rather size and use neck tension then I recommend the Shiloh inline seating system. It's not cheap but it will ensure that your bullets are seated with basically zero runout, and it also ensures that your loaded rounds will always fit your Shiloh's chamber. Their seater is made from a section of barrel that has been reamed with the same reamer as used on the chamber so it's a perfect fit.

Good luck in your journey. You are definitely starting off in style!

Chris.

[Big Mak]

Very nice!

A few things I'd suggest trying as you experiment would be:

1. do all of your compression with the die and none with the bullet.
2. try an unlubed wad. I've always been happy with a 0.060" LDPE wad.
3. get your case mouth expansion sorted out so you don't have to do a taper crimp at all. I usually load a couple of thousand rounds a year for my Shiloh's and I've never used any sort of crimp. Basically you want to eliminate even the smallest possibility of deforming the bullet in any of your reloading steps.

As far as sized vs. unsized cases go, I find you can get superb accuracy either way. Often with the .45-70 the cases will shorten 0.010" or so upon firing so they might come out a little shorter than you like. If that's the case then try to use a bullet that, when seated all the way out, has some lube groove showing at the case mouth. If you decide you'd rather size and use neck tension then I recommend the Shiloh inline seating system. It's not cheap but it will ensure that your bullets are seated with basically zero runout, and it also ensures that your loaded rounds will always fit your Shiloh's chamber. Their seater is made from a section of barrel that has been reamed with the same reamer as used on the chamber so it's a perfect fit.

Good luck in your journey. You are definitely starting off in style!

Chris.
Thank you Chris. Tell me more about the Shiloh inline seating system? Where do they sell them? No luck with google search.

[Gunlaker]

With Shiloh it's always easiest to call them. Last time I looked they only listed a part of the system on their website for some reason.

Basically there is this big piece that is like a frame that screws into your press. The second part of the seater is a short chunk of barrel that has been chambered with the Shiloh reamer ( no rifling in the barrel chunk, just a smooth bore ). You stick the bullet into the case so it just sits there and then you "chamber" it into the barrel chunk. Insert that into the frame that is screwed into the press and work the lever and it seats the bullet. Then you extract the shell from the barrel chunk with a small screwdriver.

The only thing that's slightly tricky is that when you first get the unit, you have to customize the seater for your bullet type ( you can get extra pieces if you want to use multiple bullet nose types ). You do this by making a dummy round with as close to zero runout as you can get, then you use JB Weld and a release agent ( I use imperial sizing wax ) to fit the nose part of the seater to your bullet. It's easier than my poor description makes it sound. It comes with good instructions.

The best way is to call up and ask about it though.

I did find a picture of it on the internet in a Mike Venturino article. I'm not sure why they aren't talked about a lot on the forums because they do work very well. I like it much more than my Redding Competition seater for instance.

Anyway this article has a small picture of the setup:

https://loaddata.com/articles/PDF/match%20BPCR.pdf

Chris.

[Big Mak]

Thank you!

[Deadeye Bly]

Absolutely gorgeous rifle! You should get a lifetime of good use out of it and still be good to pass on to another generation.

[Big Mak]

Absolutely gorgeous rifle! You should get a lifetime of good use out of it and still be good to pass on to another generation.
I have two sons, both shooters. One will get the 90% Springfield Trapdoor and the other gets the Sharps. :smile:

Well, good first day at the range with the Sharps. The vernier sight is similar, not unlike, the Buffington I'm used to using.

The sight was set at 1/4 (25 pts I assume?) and placed on paper nicely at 25 yards.
I kept bringing it out, to 50 then 100 yards to "zero" it.

The Baldwin Soule sight registered 40 pts for 100 yards. My groupings sucked, the last 4 shots are closest to the vertical axis.
The first shot was low and left, I overcompensated windage and the next 2 were low and to the right. The last 4 shots started coming in. (nearest center vertical axis)

I used a blow tube in between shots and swabbed the chamber for clean entry. I also ran a wet patch (water and Murphy's soap mixture) down the barrel every 5th shot followed by a dry patch.

First thing I learned is that I need to put the "vertical staff" card in the front globe on my next trip to the range.(Lollypop) I didn't bring all the cards sights to the range so I stuck with what I had.

Also, I'll learn to make a better more accurate bullet. I've started separating the 520 gr BACO money mold boolits by weight. No more than .4 gr apart, then grouped. They throw between 518.2 grs to as much as 520.5 grs using 20/1 lead I purchased from Buffalo Arms.

Now that I have 20 fired cartridge brass pieces, I *should* be more successful in the next batch that I make.

This last 20 I used 65 gr of Old Enysford 2F, drop tubed, .030 wad. CCI #250 primer. Compression was .09 with a montana compression die. Then added the boolit and compressed another .06. I did not separate lighter or heavier bullets.

After steel tumbling the freshly fired brass, I am going to experiment.
For instance the suggestion to wipe the bullet base clean of any SPG lube, less compression with the actual bullet (and more compression with the die) and I have .060 veggie wads, I may try a few of those instead of the .030.
Once I get consistent at 100 yards I'll move it out to 200 yards. I predict I'll need to add 14 points to the 40 showing on the staff.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Wp7pqBt/0/c7739ba1/X4/i-Wp7pqBt-X4.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-cLvCst8/0/f8b0daa2/X2/i-cLvCst8-X2.jpg

[Big Mak]

With Shiloh it's always easiest to call them. Last time I looked they only listed a part of the system on their website for some reason.
.......................


Chris.

Gunlaker, sent you a PM. Shiloh had 2 left so they took it off the website. I bought one today, so there is one left. Not sure when they'll have more in stock.

[toot]

that color case hardening should be against the law / outlawed, because it is the most beautiful job that I have ever seen!!! WOW!!

[Gunlaker]

Gunlaker, sent you a PM. Shiloh had 2 left so they took it off the website. I bought one today, so there is one left. Not sure when they'll have more in stock.

I'm sure you'll like it! Soon I have to order one of the seater parts for my new .45-2.6" rifle, although I won't see it for a year or so.

Chris.

[brass410]

OH MY !!!!! gun porn, keep it up and my wife's gonna hit me with an intervention group, last time she walked by the man cave all she could hear where gasps and sighs, she though I was having a heart attack. She looked in, and caught me touching the comp screen, charged the desk and spun the screen around and there I was, BUSTED on shiloh sharps web site again, I'm ashamed.

[Big Mak]

OH MY !!!!! gun porn, keep it up and my wife's gonna hit me with an intervention group, last time she walked by the man cave all she could hear where gasps and sighs, she though I was having a heart attack. She looked in, and caught me touching the comp screen, charged the desk and spun the screen around and there I was, BUSTED on shiloh sharps web site again, I'm ashamed.
I told my wife that erections are normal when seeing such a beautiful rifle.

[Big Mak]

Gunlaker, you made my year!

Good day at the range with the Shiloh Sharps 1874 Montana Rough Rider with 30" Octagonal at 200 yards.

After sighting it in with a new front silhouette disk, I proceeded to test my bullets. This was my 2nd batch after literally fireforming the brass to fit the tight chamber tolerances of the Sharps rifle.

65 gr and 69.5 hrs of Olde Enysford 2F, compressed .200", 520 grain BACO "money" bullet cast from 20/1 lead with a .030 veggie wad, bullets were pan lube with SPG Lube. Winchester Large Rifle Primer. Basically it was made identical to Mike Venturino bullets, those that shoot silhouette know who Ventura is.
Bullet pressed in place by a Shiloh bullet seating tool, which is basically a section of the .458 barrel (minus rifling) and a press. Thanks to GUNLAKER on Castboolits for the tip!
Far left shot was fouling shot after cleaning the barrel after sighting in 200 yards. Then the 200 groups started coming in.

Closest holes (3 on top of each other) were all 69.5 grains of 2F.

Mike's book talks about 1" groups for 100 yards, 2" groups for 200 yards, etc. is obtainable with proper and precise build of a cartridge and I didnt believe it was possible!

FYI, the run out on these test cartridges ran .001 max.

[Gunlaker]

Nice work! I'm glad that worked out well for you. Once nice thing about that seater die is that if you use it you can guarantee that the ammo will chamber in your rifle. You only have to show up to a match once with ammo that doesn't want to chamber and you'll find out fast how useful that is :-)

Chris.