All Around 44 Mag loads?

[BKS]

I have 3 model 629s, 3”-6.5”-8 3/8” that I love to shoot, I hunt with the two longer ones and carry the 3” when I’m the woods or in colder weather.
I’m getting into reloading and am looking for advice on a “Do it all or all purpose load”
I have read and been told about the 9-10gr unique loads with cast bullets. Unfortunately Unique is pretty scarce right now.
I’m thinking a Keith type cast boolit probably powder coated.
I’m looking for anyone’s general recommendation for these types of loads.

I’ve got LP and LPM primers and some powders, 2400, Enforcer, True Blue, 1lb of unique,

Thanks in advance.

[Ozark mike]

I use a lee 310 behind a full case of 296

[Shuz]

For a medium power load that is still plenty powerful for deer or other thin skinned animals a load of 10.0g of Unique and Lymans 429421seated to 1.710 is a great load. For more powerful loads in case you are bothered with rhino's, 19 to 19.5g of 2400 at the same OAL .will do the job. I recommend standard primers with both the 2400 and Unique loads. Good luck!

[ddixie884]

You can use 2400 at 16 to 18gr for a good lighter load if you can't find Unique. It would be equal to a strong but not maximum Keith style special load.

[Walks]

I've used a Lyman #429421 over 9.5grs of Unique for a loong time.
My Dad developed that load in the late 1950's.
Great "walking" around load. Carry it in My SBH 5 1/2".

[Larry Gibson]

Never really found an "all around" load. Just learned to make do with the load I had at the time but have learned to pick the correct load for the perceived use. I've been shooting and loading for the 44 magnum since '68. I have developed 4 basic loads that I use for use in my four 44 magnums [3 revolvers (4, 6 and 6 1.2" barrels) and a Contender.

The first is with 240 gr SWCs that I cast [429360 and TL430-240-SWC] of commercial cast 240 SWCs [usually with a coat of LLA applied to prevent leading] loaded over 6 gr Bullseye to duplicate standard 44 SPL performance with excellent accuracy.

Second is a Lyman 429421 or RCBS 44-250-K loaded over 8.5 gr of Unique. This load gives excellent accuracy and medium power replicating Skeeter's 44 SPL load.

Third is the Lyman and RCBS 250 gr "Keith" bullet loaded over Keith's classic 44 magnum load; 22 gr 2400. A stout yet accurate magnum load used for S&Gs or for hunting medium game.

Forth is my preferred big game hunting load; the Lyman 429640 "Devastator" HP loaded over 23 gr of H110. When cast of 20-1 or 16-1 the terminal performance is excellent with very good expansion and plenty of penetration.

[fatelk]

I like a powder coated 429421 over a stiff charge of H110 for the S&Ws, and powder coated, gas checked 429241 for the Marlin. Any more though, I've really come to appreciate a more moderate charge of unique with those bullets, for much shooting at the range.

[Norske]

My 44's prefer a 240-250 gr bullet always over 20 grains of 2400. MY SBH's like the cast bullet, my Marlin 1894 prefers a jacketed bullet.

[cowboy4evr]

I would suggest you save the Enforcer for Magnum loads . 2400 can be down loaded some . I have used 17.5 grs with a 240 gr cast bullet for more than a " special " load but it's not a " magnum " load . True Blue works well and Ramshot has load data for it . 8.5 grs of Unique using a 240 gr bullet is a great " everyday " load and was Elmer Keiths middle load and most often used . True Blue will give you the same 950 fps to duplicate the Unique load . Regards Paul

[44MAG#1]

I would suggest you save the Enforcer for Magnum loads . 2400 can be down loaded some . I have used 17.5 grs with a 240 gr cast bullet for more than a " special " load but it's not a " magnum " load . True Blue works well and Ramshot has load data for it . 8.5 grs of Unique using a 240 gr bullet is a great " everyday " load and was Elmer Keiths middle load and most often used . True Blue will give you the same 950 fps to duplicate the Unique load . Regards Paul

Let me ask this question. First I am very curious is all. Next I followed Elmer Keith for many years, actually since I got my first Guns and Ammo after he started writing for them.
I have read about his loads ect. for the 44 Magnum and the 44 Specials over the years. Now here is the question. Does anyone have any evidence of him using anything in the 44 Magnum for the LAST several years of his life other than the "Keith" bullet and 22.0 grains of Hercules 2400? Not talking about his earlier years shooting the 44 Special or his early years of shooting or loading?
I know he talked about lighter loads but did he ever use them the LAST several years ? Did he even practice his handgun shooting in the LAST several years of his life other than taking a shot or two at a rock, stump, badger dump etc? Did he even experiment on handgun loads the LAST several years he lived?
Please don't read anything into this post other than what I asked.
Not trying to start a controversy or a dissention among the readers, posters and a irritation of the moderators over this question.

[375supermag]

Hi...
I own and shoot five .44Magnumrevokvers and a Marlin lever action rifle in.44Magnum.
I have found that 10gr of Unique under a commercial cast coated LSWC of 240gr will shoot accurately in each of those firearms.
No problem hitting steel plates at 25yds and breaking small rocks beyond them on the berm. Soda cans and water bottles don't stand a chance at the 25yd line.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

HS-6 is a good all around powder for mid level 44 mag loads pushing a SWC.

[Bookworm]

HS-6 is a good all around powder for mid level 44 mag loads pushing a SWC.

Absolutely. 10-12 grains HS-6 makes a wonderful 240gr 44 Mag load.

[tominboise]

Herco is just a touch slower than Unique and makes some fine handgun loads. It may be easier to find than Unique these days.

[BKS]

I GREATLY appreciate the replies. I been looking at Bayou Bullet 240gr PC’d SWC.
I don’t cast YET.

[John Boy]

Pick One ... http://www.reloadammo.com/44loads.htm

[onelight]

Let me ask this question. First I am very curious is all. Next I followed Elmer Keith for many years, actually since I got my first Guns and Ammo after he started writing for them.
I have read about his loads ect. for the 44 Magnum and the 44 Specials over the years. Now here is the question. Does anyone have any evidence of him using anything in the 44 Magnum for the LAST several years of his life other than the "Keith" bullet and 22.0 grains of Hercules 2400? Not talking about his earlier years shooting the 44 Special or his early years of shooting or loading?
I know he talked about lighter loads but did he ever use them the LAST several years ? Did he even practice his handgun shooting in the LAST several years of his life other than taking a shot or two at a rock, stump, badger dump etc? Did he even experiment on handgun loads the LAST several years he lived?
Please don't read anything into this post other than what I asked.
Not trying to start a controversy or a dissention among the readers, posters and a irritation of the moderators over this question.
What I understand is that Elmer spent time in a nursing home before he died , sometimes we go quickly and sometimes slowly . I don't know the answer to your question or what relevance it would have to any thing , I believe he was 85 or 84 so if he did shoot much those last few years he may have made some adjustments to what he shot when he was in better health and I am sure he reached a point that he did not shoot at all.
I am glad much of what he did was recorded in print to learn from and enjoy he was a shooting mentor to many people he never met.
I always looked forward to any articles with his name on them.

[photomicftn]

I've read him saying that he would shoot two cylinders full of his top 22gr 2400 load per week to stay 'in form', and the rest of his .44 Magnum shooting was with his reduced loads. So, ~600rds per year of the full charge stuff, and the rest, whatever it amounted to, of the lighter stuff. That's paraphrased from what I've read, probably in more than one place.

He had a stroke in December 1981, and passed in February 1984. I found a couple of oral history clips on the web, dated September 1981, when he was 82, from about 3 months before he had the stroke. Interesting to hear him in his own voice:

https://www.loc.gov/audio/?fa=partof:american+memory%7Ccontributor:keith,+el mer

[derek45]

if you can't find unique, 9.0grs UNIVERSAL with a 240-265gr SWC works well.

6.5gr win231/hp38 240gr makes a mild accurate plinker

2400 or H110/win296 and a firm crimp for max velocity loads.

https://i.imgur.com/LRtE3Si.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/RTAqSwd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/EPydk5A.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/z1oEwmp.jpg

[44MAG#1]

I've read him saying that he would shoot two cylinders full of his top 22gr 2400 load per week to stay 'in form', and the rest of his .44 Magnum shooting was with his reduced loads. So, ~600rds per year of the full charge stuff, and the rest, whatever it amounted to, of the lighter stuff. That's paraphrased from what I've read, probably in more than one place.

He had a stroke in December 1981, and passed in February 1984. I found a couple of oral history clips on the web, dated September 1981, when he was 82, from about 3 months before he had the stroke. Interesting to hear him in his own voice:

https://www.loc.gov/audio/?fa=partof:american+memory%7Ccontributor:keith,+el mer

I understand what you are saying. I followed him closely for many years. the trouble is some people piece together things he said over many years. He occasionally did shoot reduced loads and liked them. But I have not found anywhere where he shot anything but his "Keith Load" the last several years of his life or where he even shot much. The 600 round figure was him talking about the first year he had the 6.5 inch 44 Mag Smith sent him. That was in around 1956.
I don't know that he even shot his 235 Grain HP much if all after the mid '60's
Again I am not saying he didn't shoot. But Ive not seen much evidence that he did shoot much other than just a few rounds of the "Keith Load" when he did shoot.

[Norske]

He probably couldn't hear mid-powered loads. Elmer and Jack O'Conner were famed for their shouting conversations at firearm product shows.
What do you call an old shooter?

Anything you want,he can't hear you.

[onelight]

I've read him saying that he would shoot two cylinders full of his top 22gr 2400 load per week to stay 'in form', and the rest of his .44 Magnum shooting was with his reduced loads. So, ~600rds per year of the full charge stuff, and the rest, whatever it amounted to, of the lighter stuff. That's paraphrased from what I've read, probably in more than one place.

He had a stroke in December 1981, and passed in February 1984. I found a couple of oral history clips on the web, dated September 1981, when he was 82, from about 3 months before he had the stroke. Interesting to hear him in his own voice:

https://www.loc.gov/audio/?fa=partof:american+memory%7Ccontributor:keith,+el mer

Thanks for posting that great to hear him tell those stories .

[Hi-Speed]

I liked 18.5 grs 2400 with either 240 gr SWC or Keith 250gr SWC. They would hover around 1,200 FPS from my long departed S&W Model 29 8 3/8 inch.

Don’t shoot the big boys anymore...I leave that skill to the younger bucks.

[Three44s]

The thread has evolved in to two questions.

I say that the most under utilized powder fitting for a medium load in a 44 Mag revolver would be HS6.

As far as Elmer’s preference in .44 loads I do not know but I can report that he was not likely shooting big guns right out of “diapers”. In reading Six Guns I recall him extolling the use of a range of revolver cartridges with the .32 bore included. He was a firm believer in working ones self up gradually to heavy revolvers.

Personally I find myself doing no more than two cylinders full at full charge so the account in an earlier post does not surprise me at all that Elmer also may have limited his practice with heavy loads from the big bores.

I always tell folks looking at the big guns that when you are a hand loader there is no reason to run a powerful revolver at full house at all times, in fact it is very counter productive in my experience.

I begin at the bottom of the power range at just above 44 special loading in magnum cases. I like Clays there. Next I move upto Titegroup. Next it’s Unique the way Skeeter Skelton loaded them (8.5 gr).

Next is where HS6 fits in, at 10 to 12 gr (upper 11s to 12 gr).

Next it’s 2400 begining at 17.5 and ending up around 20.5 in a Smith and 21 in my Ruger DAs.

Finally I reach for H110 ......

If I want more pizzaz, I change to my 480 Ruger

Three44s

[Jniedbalski]

I bet he was like me. Getting older sucks but I find I like the slower End loads the older I get. In rifle and pistol. And I also have been slowing on my times out shooting. But who knows he might of been shooting is hot load up until the last few years.

[Three44s]

Photomicftn,

Thank you for the link to the Elmer interview!

Very good!

Three44s

[44MAG#1]

In the vein of reduced loads I have been shooting "Keith" bullets deep seated in 44 Magnum cases @1.565 inches OAL and using the Skelton 44 Special load or a similar load using Longshot.
Works well.

[black mamba]

I have an Encore with a Bullberry custom 10" bull barrel that I run my full power loads through, so most of the loads I run in my S&Ws run from heavy Special loads to medium Magnum loads. For these my favorite bullet is Gardner's 265 SWC GC, as they are dead nuts accurate and very reasonably priced. Here are some of my favorites for general field work and whitetail hunting:

S&W 629 Classic 6½"
265 SWC over 13.5 gr N105 with WLP for about 1200 fps
265 SWC over 12.0 gr HS6 with WLP for about 1170 fps
265 SWC over 9.3 gr HP38 with CCI-300 for about 1100 fps
265 SWC over 9.0 gr Herco with CCI-300 for about 1075 fps

Lower recoil loads for DA control (S&W 29-2 Nickel 4")
240 Coated SWC over 9.2 gr Ultimate Pistol with F150 for about 1025 fps
240 Coated SWC over 8.6 gr Unique with F150 for about 990 fps

[Don Purcell]

A good friend of mine (Now deceased) visited and shot with Elmer for many years up until the summer before his stroke later that year and he never mentioned Elmer backing down his loads. Correct on the hollowpoint. Elmer stated he finally just settled on his 250 grain solid with 22 grains/2400. He also mentioned if he wanted to shoot lighter loads he would break out a smaller caliber to play with. I'm sure Elmers shooting time was reduced in later years as age takes a toll on all of us but he was a tough old guy no doubt. If I remember correctly my friend is the one who called and told me about Elmer's stroke and that he was in the process of dressing out a deer when felled so he was still at it.

[Don Purcell]

if you can't find unique, 9.0grs UNIVERSAL with a 240-265gr SWC works well.

6.5gr win231/hp38 240gr makes a mild accurate plinker

2400 or H110/win296 and a firm crimp for max velocity loads.

https://i.imgur.com/LRtE3Si.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/RTAqSwd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/EPydk5A.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/z1oEwmp.jpg

derek45, those are some fine looking Keith bullets you cast there. I already have an H&G 8 cavity and a matched pair of matched Ballisticast molds for the 250 Keith but I could be tempted to pick up an Arsenal mold. What diameter do they come out of the mold as I prefer around .432. Thanks.

[Three44s]

As the concept of dwell time came into my lexicon and peak pressure I was comparing IMR 800X and HS6 in my 44 Mag Mountain Gun.

The 800X was already losing favor as it feels like trying to measure road gravel in my Uniflow while HS6 was like butter on a hot skillet!

What I did was load an 800X round, skipped a chamber, loaded an second, skip and loaded a third. Then I filled in with the HS6 loads. I kept track of which round I started with and fired off all six.

The two powders were loaded to the same velocity, but it was VERY apparent that the recoil impulse was quite different. The HS6 won hands down!

From the timeless Hodgdon #26: RCBS 250K, 11.8 gr of HS6 and a magnum Federal large pistol primer in 44 Mag cases.

Three44s

[44MAG#1]

A good friend of mine (Now deceased) visited and shot with Elmer for many years up until the summer before his stroke later that year and he never mentioned Elmer backing down his loads. Correct on the hollowpoint. Elmer stated he finally just settled on his 250 grain solid with 22 grains/2400. He also mentioned if he wanted to shoot lighter loads he would break out a smaller caliber to play with. I'm sure Elmers shooting time was reduced in later years as age takes a toll on all of us but he was a tough old guy no doubt. If I remember correctly my friend is the one who called and told me about Elmer's stroke and that he was in the process of dressing out a deer when felled so he was still at it.

That is what I was getting at. I called Mr Keith and talked with him at least a couple times a year and one year maybe 4 or 5 times that year from mid '70's to just maybe a month before his stroke. The stroke was Dec15 1981 and he had signed my Hell I was There book on the 10th.
He never shot much handgun in his later years and it most certainly was not reduced loads.
He told me that the 4 inch M29 he carried daily HAD NEVER been shot on a paper target. That he had killed coyotes at a quarter mile, flying fish and birds, mule deer at 250 yards and trotting house cats at 300 yards with it and that was good enough for him.
If people will remember, he sighted his first 44 Mag 6.5 inch in shooting at a stump at a round 50 to 60 yards shooting out of a car window at Wagon Hammer Springs with the first ammo Remington sent him. Emmett Steeples was with him.
One could learn a lot from Keith if they absorb what he wrote.

[Bazoo]

I've read him saying that he would shoot two cylinders full of his top 22gr 2400 load per week to stay 'in form', and the rest of his .44 Magnum shooting was with his reduced loads. So, ~600rds per year of the full charge stuff, and the rest, whatever it amounted to, of the lighter stuff. That's paraphrased from what I've read, probably in more than one place.

He had a stroke in December 1981, and passed in February 1984. I found a couple of oral history clips on the web, dated September 1981, when he was 82, from about 3 months before he had the stroke. Interesting to hear him in his own voice:

https://www.loc.gov/audio/?fa=partof:american+memory%7Ccontributor:keith,+el mer

Man that's cool thanks!

[Outpost75]

A firearm doesn't need to be run at full power all the time any more than any other machine.

Like Larry, I make frequent use of a "medium velocity" load which approximates the Skeeter .44 Special load. The difference is that instead of Larry's 8.5 grains of Unique, I use 7.2 grains of Bullseye, as metered by the RCBS Little Dandy rotor #13. I find this load accurate, economical and powerful enough to do most of what a packing pistol is needed to do, power approximating a full-charge .45 Colt or a .44-40 rifle load.

Here in West Virginia the locals ate all the mastadons long ago and there are no predators big enough to eat'cha. Bubba Bigfoot farms ramps, grabs trout with his bare hands and makes fine moonshine way back up in the hills. His "smokeless still" powered by an auxiliary power unit salvaged from a crashed alien spaceship. He keeps the Moth Man at distance for us, bellows a warning when any UFOs and black helicopters fly into our valley. He really isn't a bad cuss once you get to know him, but he gets a bad rap from the flatlanders east of here because he's deathly allergic to soap and water and you can smell him comin', but man, what a magnificent beard!. He may be a distant cousin, but you kain't tell for sure about geneology among these isolated clans way back up in the hollows. He doesn't need a pistol because the bears are scared that he make steal their sows. He ain't particular...

[derek45]

derek45, those are some fine looking Keith bullets you cast there. I already have an H&G 8 cavity and a matched pair of matched Ballisticast molds for the 250 Keith but I could be tempted to pick up an Arsenal mold. What diameter do they come out of the mold as I prefer around .432. Thanks.

They can custom size the mold to you liking.
I went with .432

Possibly my favorite mold

http://arsenalmolds.com/products?product_id=138&limit=100

https://i.imgur.com/BoOhoIe.jpg

[derek45]

PS - just found my quick review from a few years ago....

ARSENAL-Molds-503

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?352781-ARSENAL-Molds-503-Quick-review


https://i.imgur.com/KDL4k9H.jpg

[44MAG#1]

Too bad no one makes a mold for this Keith.

266634

[bluejay75]

12 grains of HS6 and a 255-270 cast boolit is hard to beat. Meters great and at the charge weight given a pound goes a long way. As accurate if not more accurate than Unique.

[Outpost75]

Too bad no one makes a mold for this Keith.

266634

Any of these do it for you? Only a few of Tom's offerings at Accurate. If you want a wider black powder lube groove for SPG he can easily do that when you order, just ask.


266644266645266646266648266647

[44MAG#1]

Any of these do it for you? Only a few of Tom's offerings at Accurate. If you want a wider black powder lube groove for SPG he can easily do that when you order, just ask.


266644266645266646266648266647

I don't see one.
I want that Keith in my photo

[Outpost75]

I don't see one.
I want that Keith in my photo

If you have a dimensioned and toleranced drawing, either scanned, or in AutoCad, or if you can send Tom a well filled-out bullet which he can measure on his optical comparator he will make it for you, send a drawing for your approval, and once ordered you can have the mold in about 3 weeks.

Just curious what specific features on your bullet are you not seeing in the various ones he has made? A wider lube groove is easy, a wider, flat-bottomed crimp groove is easy, anything else?

[44MAG#1]

I have some well filled out bullets. And I can cast some too. I just would hope he could duplicate that bullet is all. No, "Well I thought it needed this mod or that mod" type thing.

[Bazoo]

I'm interested in what's special about that particular bullet.

[ddixie884]

I'm betting Tom can make you a mold that will drop it for you..........

[44MAG#1]

I'm interested in what's special about that particular bullet.

If you will look at the bullets listed in the Keith Sixgun book that bullet is a direct companion of the bullet in the pictures of a 429421 bullet Mr Keith told me on the phone that the bullet in that picture was cast in a original 429421 mold. I asked him in one of the many conversations we had about that bullet. The mold I have is a very, very old single cavity IDEAL 429421 mold.
That is why I would like to have a copy of that bullet in a 4 or 5 cavity mold.

[Bazoo]

Thanks for sharing. I've not had the pleasure of reading Sixguns yet. I can see why you love that bullet so I am serious when I ask; what benefit have you seen in the original Keith bullet vs the clones?

[44MAG#1]

Thanks for sharing. I've not had the pleasure of reading Sixguns yet. I can see why you love that bullet so I am serious when I ask; what benefit have you seen in the original Keith bullet vs the clones?

None really. It is just to shoot a bullet that is as close to the original Keith as one can get nowadays. I shoot others more. The H&G 503, both designs, the Lyman 429421 because a buddy of mine cast them.
The more you will study shooters you will find they are as fickle as anyone else. Jumping to conclusions, Seeking confirmations of their beliefs, etc.

[derek45]

I have Keiths book and the Arsenal H&G 503 clone is about perfect

what don’t you like about it ?

seems more what he described than than the Lyman i had before

.

[Outpost75]

None really. It is just to shoot a bullet that is as close to the original Keith as one can get nowadays. I shoot others more. The H&G 503, both designs, the Lyman #429421 because a buddy of mine cast them. The more you will study shooters you will find they are as fickle as anyone else. Jumping to conclusions, Seeking confirmations of their beliefs, etc.

Part of the problem with the so-called "Keith" bullets is that Elmer was not a technical guy and only gave the mold makers general descriptions and parameters for what he wanted. Whoever then made the cherry, then made it to suit his ideas. Lyman post-1960 messed everything up, using smaller, round bottom lube groove and shorter, undersized front bands which did not fit the typical cylinder throats, as well as other changes which were not consistent in production.

The pre-1970 Cramer, Saeco and H&G molds were a bit closer to what is commonly recognized as the "original Keith" design, but still varied. My high school classmate the late LTC Gregory Kalnitzky favored the Saeco #441 from an old San Diego mold, which he used to kill truckloads of game as a professonal hunter and guide in Alaska, and Africa.

RCBS molds were closer than the Lyman, but IMHO utterly fail because their as-cast diameters are determined by using linotype alloy, which Keith never used, and when cast in common wheelweights or the truer to the orginal form, 1 to 16 or 1 to 20 tin-lead, which Keith favored, will then be about 0.002" undersized, and cannot fit the cylinder throats.

As far back as 1935 in his book Sixgun Cartridges and Loads, Keith realized that cylinder throat and NOT barrel groove diameter was the key to revolver accuracy. Lyman messed that whole concept up for several generations publishing their marketing horse manure to sell sizing dies to make bullets fit the groove diameter of the barrel. THAT wives tale needs to have a wooden stake driven through its heart and then be buried in a hole dusted with black powder, evil black Ideal bullet lube and then torched off, with everyone heaving their Lyman manuals in the fire and when done killing the flame before burying the debris by urinating on the pile with the urine of a six-pack of Lone Star long necks!

Original Ideal molds from the 1930s may be the closest we have to an "original Keith" design, having flat-bottomed lube grooves with a 30 degrees, Basic, draft angle on the sides of the lube groove for easy bullet release, and the depth of lube grooves being a .410-.415 minor diameter at the base chord of a .44, and .420-.425 for a .45, which was necessary for the primitive lubes in use at the time. That lube groove design is appropriate for black powder use with SPG, but is not needed for modern lubes with smokeless powder.

When I discussed front driving band and crimp groove configuration with Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan at Bill Ruger's New Hampshire home, (it must have been 1982-83? when I was still on the NRA tech staff, and met with WBR to discuss employment, but before I actually moved to NH to work for the company) the consensus was that the driving band north of the crimp groove must be full diameter to permit its being sized to fit the cylinder throats exactly, to enable a positive gas seal and guidance during initial shot-start, this factor being critical when .44 Special cases are used in the longer .44 Magnum chamber.

The crimp groove must be adequate to prevent inertial dislodgement in revolvers as well as to prevent "telescoping" due to axial compression by a tubular magazine spring in rifles, that action being aggravated by recoil in heavy loads. Elmer's preference for a wide, flat-bottomed crimp groove was intended to mitigate against variations in case length causing buckling of case mouths when varied lengths of untrimmed cases otherwise had "no place to go." This same condition is more common in the .44-40 due to the thinner mouth wall thickness and fragile construction of those cases.

Elmer also liked a short radius behind the meplat to brake the sharp corner aid feeding if rounds were to be used in lever-action rifles. Elmer never used the .44 Magnum in a levergun to my knowledge, but he acknowledged that having "deer rifle utility" was necessary for commercial success of the .44 Magnum cartridge and he applauded Bill Ruger's efforts in bringing the original "Deerslayer" carbine to market. Skeeter felt the .44 Magnum could replace the .44-40 as a lawman's carbine.

Elmer liked an ample meplat diameter about 0.6 to 0.7 of the bullet diameter, but acknowledges that a larger meplat impaired long range performance of handgun bullets fired in the common 18-3/4" twist S&W barrels, which he normally carried. When asked if he would have done anything differently, if doing it again, he indicated that he could have never anticipated the popularity of handgun hunting and silhouette shooting after about 1980, and would have made the bullet "a but heavier." The 276-grain Corder design from accurate embodies the principles from the composite "dirty napkin sketch" done by Keith, Skelton and Jordan when I was there.

Does any of that help?

[44MAG#1]

Outpost75,

If you were referring your #49 post to me I appreciate it but it was not needed. Hindsight is nothing new. I am sure Mr. Keith and his friends would have done things a lot different after they had time to think said things over after many years. That would go for most of us.
That still does not negate the reason I would like to have the bullet I picture just because of what it is. Is it the absolutely the best, more than likely no. Could it have been more refined, more than likely yes.
Would Mr Keith have drawn up a different design 40 years later after using his original design. more than likely yes. Could I be using a better bullet than the one in the photo by using my two different H&G 503's or the Lyman 429421, probably
Your post was insightful to most and that is the good thing about it. I appreciate it. It helps others to confirm (confirmation bias) what they want to know and believe which is a good thing.
Does it help with my nostalgia, that is another thing entirely.

[Outpost75]

Bottom line is that if you want a modern gang mold which duplicates bullets from a vintage mold which works for you, send a couple sharply cast, well filled out samples to Tom, tell him what alloy you normally use and he can adjust for alloy shrinkage and make what you want. I've done this with several antique molds and have been well satisfied.

[JAC43]

Accurate’s 43-250J was supposedly from an early Ideal 429421 that Brian Pearce had. But 44Mag#1’s bullet looks considerably different. I’d like to have an Accurate mold in that design. It would be mighty generous of you to send some examples to Tom and have him put it onto the website for all to access.

[derek45]

Arsenal H&G 503

https://i.imgur.com/nQGypmJ.jpg

[ddixie884]

Deep...............

[BobT]

I've read him saying that he would shoot two cylinders full of his top 22gr 2400 load per week to stay 'in form', and the rest of his .44 Magnum shooting was with his reduced loads. So, ~600rds per year of the full charge stuff, and the rest, whatever it amounted to, of the lighter stuff. That's paraphrased from what I've read, probably in more than one place.

He had a stroke in December 1981, and passed in February 1984. I found a couple of oral history clips on the web, dated September 1981, when he was 82, from about 3 months before he had the stroke. Interesting to hear him in his own voice:

https://www.loc.gov/audio/?fa=partof:american+memory%7Ccontributor:keith,+el mer

Thanks for posting!

[44MAG#1]

Arsenal H&G 503

https://i.imgur.com/nQGypmJ.jpg

No doubt they are good looking bullets. We will give you that. I don't have anything against that Arsenal "503" it is a good looking bullet. But ,and it is a big BUT with me, is that it isn't the bullet I have in my photo.
I shoot Lymans 429421, H&G 503's (Both Designs) and a NEI260429 and a H&G 326 plus a couple I designed within the past year.
I rarely shoot any of the Ideal 429421 I have in the photo because it is an old, very old, single cavity mold.
But if I have a 4 or 5 cavity mold made for it I will shoot it

[Don Purcell]

44MAG#1, what struck me about the Keith bullet you want is the tiny cylindrical ring just above the crimp groove. No one else does that on their molds, the crimp taper ends at the base of the first driving band. We have an almost unlimited supply of molds available that are more accurate and more effective on game but going back and shooting Keith bullets just seems right to some of us.

[1hole]

I’m getting into reloading and am looking for advice on a “Do it all or all purpose load”

I have read and been told about the 9-10gr unique loads with cast bullets. ... I’m thinking a Keith type cast boolit probably powder coated. ... I’m looking for anyone’s general recommendation for these types of loads.

I’ve got ... 2400, Enforcer, True Blue, 1lb of unique,

My 1966, pre-Dirty Harry, M29 really likes moderately hard, plain base 250 SWC bullets, lubed with NRA Alox and sized to .429". (And it still has the original checkered wood grip panels.)

For "lady loads", 10-12 gr. charges of Unique is very good ... but, it's a 44 Mag so ...

Same bullet over 22 gr. of 2400 is what I call my "all around" load; it's good for everything. It's highly accurate and, with a two handed grip, even my wife can handle the recoil without flinching.

I don't use magnum primers except for full charges of H-110/296 but I rarely use such hot loads anyway. I love my Smith but it's not a Ruger so don't try to hot rod it or you'll have sticky cases.

[Rich/WIS]

When I could still shoot revolvers my 6.5" M29 was my favorite shooter. Settled on a load of 9.0 grs Unique behind the RCBS 44-250, moderate power and pleasant to shoot. RCBS made it in two configurations, KT and SWC. Not sure the difference and sold the mold and gun years ago and don't recall which versions I had. Sized .429 they were a good fit for the throat and barrel, and lubed with the old 50/50 Alox lube had no issues with leading.

[Outpost75]

Nice, well-mannered discussion. I've enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks everyone.

[Slugster]

My favorite load in .44 magnum is either a 429421 or 429244 of 50/50 (pure lead/lino) over 24 grs. 296/H110. This load has done very well in my Ruger SBH, RH, and SRH. If I want less recoil, I use something smaller.

[derek45]

No doubt they are good looking bullets. We will give you that. I don't have anything against that Arsenal "503" it is a good looking bullet. But ,and it is a big BUT with me, is that it isn't the bullet I have in my photo.
I shoot Lymans 429421, H&G 503's (Both Designs) and a NEI260429 and a H&G 326 plus a couple I designed within the past year.
I rarely shoot any of the Ideal 429421 I have in the photo because it is an old, very old, single cavity mold.
But if I have a 4 or 5 cavity mold made for it I will shoot it

Please explain to me how your bullet is more like an original Keith than the 503 ?

3 equal width driving bands

full-diameter front driving band

square cut lube groove

flat bottom

ample crimp groove

https://i.imgur.com/nQGypmJ.jpg

[shtur]

I live in bear, cougar, and wolf country. My wife and I hike at least 4 times a week in the MT & ID mountains and I carry my 629 a lot. My load is 12.5 grains HS6 (little dandy rotor #14) under a 240 grain cast SWC. I learned about HS6 from the postings of Three44s here on the forum.

Outpost designed a 200 grain bullet for the 44-40 that I am interested in trying for use when I am away from big bears.

I may try the Lyman 429640 devastator some day.

[Jniedbalski]

I got a 44 mag From my shooting buddy but only in a rifle. It’s a tradition’s single shot 1/20 twist heavy Fluted barrel. This rifle shoots great at 50 and 100 yards. The guy I bought it from was using 300 gr xtp’s with 19.5 imr 4227. 5 round group almost all touching.266690. Will work up a load from all the good reply’s on here. Going to buy the lee 300gr c430 300 rf GC and the C429 240Tc GC swc or the TL 240 swc for light loads . Do the slower powders work better in a 22 in barrel. The XTP shoot good but will get it shooting good with lead. It comes from the factory with a heavy Lother walther barrel . It comes with scope and mount bought after the rifle was bought. He also added sling swivels and a by pod. Do you all think the GC boolets will be better? I might load up a few hot loads but most 95% will be punching paper. 266692

[44MAG#1]

DEREK45

PM sent.

[Driver man]

I've read him saying that he would shoot two cylinders full of his top 22gr 2400 load per week to stay 'in form', and the rest of his .44 Magnum shooting was with his reduced loads. So, ~600rds per year of the full charge stuff, and the rest, whatever it amounted to, of the lighter stuff. That's paraphrased from what I've read, probably in more than one place.

He had a stroke in December 1981, and passed in February 1984. I found a couple of oral history clips on the web, dated September 1981, when he was 82, from about 3 months before he had the stroke. Interesting to hear him in his own voice:

https://www.loc.gov/audio/?fa=partof:american+memory%7Ccontributor:keith,+el mer

Thanks for posting this link. A very tough man.

[derek45]

DEREK45

PM sent.

you should have posted here, in this thread what you PM'd me.

so we can continue this group discussion.

:drinks:

Yep, lots of different bullets/molds claim to be the Keith, few are.

I think the Arsenal 503 clone is about as close as you can get, from what he describes in his sixguns book.

[44MAG#1]

you should have posted here, in this thread what you PM'd me.

so we can continue this group discussion.

:drinks:

Yep, lots of different bullets/molds claim to be the Keith, few are.

I think the Arsenal 503 clone is about as close as you can get, from what he describes in his sixguns book.

The reason I didn't you have people that have feathers easily ruffled and they complain. I am about half paranoid anymore to post on here. In my day people weren't easily offended like they are today.
So I try to be extra careful nowadays.

[Bazoo]

Well I'm on board to learn all I can about the Keith bullets!

If I'm not mistaken, Keith made several changes to his design and had moulds cut for each variation as they arose and testing proved them.

I just had a thought. I wonder if anyone here has one I'd his personal moulds?

[Drm50]

I have several 29s and only shoot cast in them with moderate loads. My deer hunting gun is Ruger SBH. My general load for these 44mags is 240gr Kieth style bullet and 16gr of 2400 with Win LPP.
Got new HBWC mold but haven’t got to test it yet. It’s 200gr + ?..

[44MAG#1]

derek45

another PM sent.

[44MAG#1]

Hensley and Gibbs #503

266723

[Alstep]

Last year I got a good deal on something I had never even considered, a Ruger Redhawk in .44 mag, and I'm having a ball with it. I'm 79 now, so recoil is a factor. So far, I've narrowed it down to a couple of favorite loads. 7.1 grains of Green Dot (RCBS little dandy rotor #16) and 16.2 grains of 2400 (#20) driving an Arsenal 429-421 boolet cast 1/1 Pb/ww, NRA lube. Both shoot to the same point of impact at 30 yards.
A light load I found is 6.6 grains of Green Dot (#15) and an Arsenal 432-210. I've got to come up about 6 clicks for the same point of impact as the loads above.
These work for me, try at your own risk!

[Tim357]

I have a thought. In .357 Mag, a 150-160 swc at about 1050-1150 fps is a decent, all around load. By extension, I believe a 240-250 swc in .44 Mag at about the same velocity should be a decent all around load. As always, YMMV.
My 2 cents, worth about what you paid for it...

[Thumbcocker]

IMHO there is no one all around load for a .44. There are medium power loads and full snort loads. Before .44 specials became available at reasonable prices I shot a lot of medium power loads and fewer full snort loads. Now I shoot mostly full snort loads and .44 specials. Magnums in Magnum guns and specials in special guns. No need to hot load the .44 special when you can get 925 fps with standard pressure. For those with only a .44 magnum gun the medium loads I used with Keith boolits were: 6.5 of red dot, 7.0 of 700x, 8.5 of Unique and 9-9.5 of power pistol. Full snort loads with Keith boolits include : 18.5 of 2400, 20.0 of 2400, 22.0 of 4227, and 22.0 of H110/296. Yes there are hotter loads available but all of these have shot well and killed deer for me. FWIW standard disclaimers.

[ddixie884]

That #503 is a damn good lookin bullet and though the Older Keith style you posted earlier is a very good bullet in its own right, the extremely large lube groove is probably excessive since there are many modern lubes that are better than beef tallow and bee's wax.

[44MAG#1]

That #503 is a damn good lookin bullet and though the Older Keith style you posted earlier is a very good bullet in its own right, the extremely large lube groove is probably excessive since there are many modern lubes that are better than beef tallow and bee's wax.

No doubt it is excessive. But we are an excessive society. Todays lubes are much more efficient than yesteryear lubes. But that doesn't negate ones desire to shoot a bullet as close to Mr Keith's original bullet as possible.
With as many antique stores as they are, we must be a society that is interested in yesteryear concerning other things too.
I am sure the Tweaked "Keith" designs we have today must be good, if not excellent, due to the fact that as we learn we "tweak" to incorporate our findings on what makes a product better . If they aren't better "Keith" bullets something is very seriously wrong.
With me it is the nostalgia of it. That is all.

[ddixie884]

I know the feeling. I have tried to get folks to go in on a true copy of the original 454424 with the big square groove and even width bands at a true 250gr. This for loading over 18.5gr 2400 in colt cases for Colt SAAs. Everyone wants 260 to 275 gr for use in Rugers. "Thread drift over"........

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Out of a 7.5" SBH, that 9 gr. Unique under a 240 lswc is a really nice all around load. Accurate and all day comfortable. Also burns clean.

[Lloyd Smale]

my generic shoots in anything 44 mag load is 9.3 grains of herco and a rcbs 240 swcgc. Ive yet to find a 44 that didnt shoot that load exceptionaly well. Many do there best work period with it.

[ddixie884]

Lloyd that sounds like a winner............

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Bottom line is that if you want a modern gang mold which duplicates bullets from a vintage mold which works for you, send a couple sharply cast, well filled out samples to Tom, tell him what alloy you normally use and he can adjust for alloy shrinkage and make what you want. I've done this with several antique molds and have been well satisfied.

I've got an RCBS 250K mold that drops normal alloys at just over .432" My SBH has .431" throats so it works well.

[Three44s]

I live in bear, cougar, and wolf country. My wife and I hike at least 4 times a week in the MT & ID mountains and I carry my 629 a lot. My load is 12.5 grains HS6 (little dandy rotor #14) under a 240 grain cast SWC. I learned about HS6 from the postings of Three44s here on the forum.

Outpost designed a 200 grain bullet for the 44-40 that I am interested in trying for use when I am away from big bears.

I may try the Lyman 429640 devastator some day..

Hey, glad you are enjoying that load. Personally I pack it when bears are less likely but what works for you ..... works!

Your barrel might be longer than my 4” MG. I get 1176 FPS in my 7.5” Redhawk and 1066 FPS in my 4” Smith.

So for MT bears I would get out the hot stuff, likely 2400 or H110 and give them a full measure of “love” if needed.

Three44s

[memtb]

I was gonna suggest 9.0 grains Unique under a 215 SWC, but, as Unique is scarce....scratch that!
So.....if it were me, I’d try to find something that has a very similar burn rate to Unique with similar load density! With that said, many folks sing the praises of Trail Boss and Titegroup. It may be something to look at! memtb

[Slugster]

I'm partial to 24 grs 296 or H-110 under a classic Lyman 429421. Mag primer.

I ran close to 1/2 ton of linotype through various Ruger handguns before I learned that I was using some expensive lead boolits.

[Txcowboy52]

He was a rough ol cobb !!!