What to do with 20 gallons of 2+-year old gas?

[Gray Fox]

Because of some illnesses I haven't been able to get up to a hunting cabin for over two years. I'm planning to go up there next month. The last time I went up there prior to that year's deer season to check on some tree stands I left four red plastic 5 gallon cans of unleaded gas treated with StaBil.

Is the gas safe to use in a vehicle and if not what can I safely do with it? Any suggestions will be appreciated. GF

[Ozark mike]

Yep its fine if it is sealed id use it in a heartbeat. Ive used older gas than that ya just dont want it setting in a carb bowl for that long

[cwtebay]

If it's gasoline, no problem - if you live in a humid environment, add some HEET or similar. If it's ethanol, put some in a clear container - if any brown discolouration is in it I wouldn't use it (alcohol is hydrophilic and will pull water in with the gas over time.

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[Bookworm]

Smell it. If it still smells good, use it wherever gasoline is used.

If it's bad, I would mix it 50/50 with used motor oil and use it as a helper to start the brush pile burning.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not sure I would put all 20 gallons into a car at one time.
Four 5 gallon containers treated with Stabil sounds promising that it will be OK. If the vents were closed, there's probably not much water in the containers and what is in there will be on the bottom; which is where you want to keep it. Try not to shake them up. Pour that gasoline out slowly and carefully. You want to decant the gasoline off and leave any water in the container.

The plastic containers will not rust, so that's in your favor. The gasoline will varnish some but that is of little concern in a plastic gas can. Ozark Mike is correct, you wouldn't want it sitting in a carburetor (or fuel injector) for 2 years but there isn't much you can screw up in a plastic gas can. Whatever you put it in, use it quickly.

[rancher1913]

i have used gas from my bulk tank that was 2 years old that did not have stabil, just plain gas. burns just fine in all my gas tractors and utv's

[bakerjw]

If it smells good enough, I'd mix in good gas for mowers and such. Even an old pickup.

[MrWolf]

Yup spread it around some if you can to other uses. I think you would be good with 20 gallons in your tank but make sure you have enough in your tank to "dilute" old gas somewhat.

[GhostHawk]

Take a can of Seafoam with you. And yes I would burn it in a vehicle. Ideally half a tank of fresh gas and top it off with old.

[redhawk0]

For me it would all depend on what it was stored in. I believe metal cans break down fuel faster than a plastic container. If plastic, I'd just throw it in the tank mixed 50/50 with fresh...and be done with it. Metal can - 25/75.

redhawk

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If I was at an age, where I wasn't in the best health and not really willing and able to disassemble and clean carborators and/or modern fuel systems, then I wouldn't risk using it...it's only $40 worth of gas, maybe a neighbor will want it for alternative uses? I mention that, because my neighbor just gave me 2 gallons of "suspect" gas...I will use it for alternative purposes.

[oldred]

Sta-Bil is good stuff when used CORRECTLY! I have used gas much older than that when it had been treated with Sta-Bil, more problems arise from using too much than using too little when adding to the gas -too much can cause starting problems especially in cold weather. When used correctly the gas should perform normally even after well over two years but the "more is better" attitude of some folks (Me, all too often :sad:) can cause problems and it doesn't take two years to show up. It usually goes something like this, "if it calls for two ounces then three should be so much better I will add four" then that is usually followed by a small dash "just for good measure". The result is usually hard starting and often no starting when used in small engines such as mowers, chainsaws, etc that normally have a weaker ignition system than modern car/truck engines and it doesn't take very much "extra for good measure" to cause problems.

BTW, almost all good two stroke oils already contain a stabilizer and the gas/oil mix will safely store for a long time without adding anything else to the mix, adding Sta-Bil to a two stroke gas/oil mix is not only not necessary but likely to lead to starting problems unless the oil didn't contain any stabilizers. About the only two stroke oils that will not already contain stabilizers are usually the cheapo oils and the well known brands will normally have that info on the label.

[Tripplebeards]

Ant hills. I poured some on a few and never lit it. They ants haven’t returned yet. I have a lot of ant hills on my property that look ant hills in Africa! I almost flipped my truck Going over one sideways that was hidden Chest high brush last year.

[country gent]

I would add a little more stabil and run it thru the truck 5 gallons to 20 gallons fresh maybe even high test.By blending it you will reduce nay staleness or issues also.

[lightman]

I'm like most of the others, I would use it. I would put 5 or maybe even 10 gallons in my tank evertime I filled it up.

[tja6435]

Look up PRI-G to restore old fuel and to store it for 25+ years.

[MT Gianni]

Try it first in a trimmer, mower or chainsaw.

[Winger Ed.]

Modern generation gas lasts longer than it did in the old days.

If it smells OK, I'd use it in a generator or lawn mower.
For a vehicle, I've added older gas than that in at 5 gallons per tank full, and never had a problem.

[uscra112]

Despite the claims, PRI-G cannot restore gas which has actually deteriorated. Don't risk it if the gas has any hint of the "turpentine odor".

In the '70s, gas could and did go bad in months. Back then I made good money every April cleaning out motorcycle fuel systems left over a New England winter. Not that way anymore. In 2009 I had to move two '89 SAABs that had been parked for about a year and a half. They ran fine on the gas in the tanks, which was never treated.

Lately I have been using Sta-Bil-ized gas that is 5 years old in my Ford 8N and the lawnmowers. (Laid down much more than I have been able to use due to health problems.) Was stored in a sealed steel drum. The secret, if there is one, is to prevent all contact with air. If the container is not sealed, lighter fractions evaporate, and moisture gets in. This I think is partly why those SAABs started up and ran. The EPA did us a favor by mandating vapor control for automotive fuel systems.

[brass410]

blend it with fresh new fuel if in doubt and use it.

[GhostHawk]

"Modern generation gas lasts longer than it did in the old days."

I would have to disagree with that statement. But I also know that gasoline content varies widely from state to state.

So what I am seeing up here in ND may not bear much resemblance to what you have down there in texas.

Even treated with Stabil modern gas up here seems to want to "shellac" and gum up carb jets, etc.

Seafoam helps once its happened if you can get it running.

And no I'm not talking anything with ethanol in it.

Seems to break down faster than it did 8-10 years back. Smells funky after 6 months.

So mostly I try to use smaller cans and buy smaller amounts and use it up.

[robg]

If it smells ok use it if it smells like varnish dump it

[DougGuy]

Incorporate it into running vehicles 5gal at a time, make sure there is 10gal of fresh gas and mix it in and run it.

[frkelly74]

When we moved and I had some old gas sitting around, I dumped it in the U-Haul truck tank and used it up that way. It was well diluted and caused no problems.

[clintsfolly]

I have property on a island with one gas pump! Last week the price was $1.58 a liter. so I keep a small supply of gas there. I just bite the bullet and buy RV gas no ethanol. Last was $3.29 a gal. I use it in my Quad,chainsaw,lawn tools and snow blow. Have a shelf and the cans set on. The oldest on the left and newest right . I use the oldest first and as one empty’s I move them over to the left. Empty’s are brought home and filled and returned next trip. Since I started do this I haven’t had any fuel related problems.

[redneck1]

I'm about as frugel as you can get , I wouldn't run it in my vehicle .
Just isn't worth the potential headaches I could cause .

[Butzbach]

Use it.

I have used Stabil in my SHTF generator supply cans since 2008. I replace the gas every two years and have never had a problem. When I use it I mix 5 gallons in a fresh tank of gas for the cars. No knocking nor hard starting with the stored gas.

[megasupermagnum]

There are a lot of myths out there on gasoline, and one of them is that it goes bad in only a few months. While I'm certain it begins degrading rather quickly, I wouldn't define it as bad for longer than most people. As has been stated, real non-oxygenated gasoline is better. It doesn't seem to separate and leave gum inside of carburetors. It also doesn't ruin fuel lines, and seems to last longer. I won't pretend to be an authority, but I've dealt with plenty of old gas ranging from old to downright ancient. 2 year old gas should be ok, I wouldn't be concerned myself. You could run it in any small engine like a lawn mower without issue. If adding to your car or truck, add 10 gallons to a nearly empty tank, then top off at the gas station.

Even 5 year old gas, when mixed with new gas is useable in a lawn mower. I couldn't put an exact time, but somewhere in that 5 to 10 year range is when gasoline truly turns sour, and will no longer burn well enough. Just recently I was working with an Alice Chalmers tractor that has gas that could be as much as 20 years old. By this point it is hard to get the stuff to even ignite with a match.

[fiberoptik]

I had a supply of gas I bought for Y2K. Tried using it some years later. It wouldn’t burn. Can’t say how long though. Didn’t even smell like gas!


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[Tripplebeards]

I dump year old gas. It’s has cost many service bills to clean carbs over the years. I use premium in every thing accept for my daily transportation to extend the fuel life and lack of issues between use. I’ve had unleaded gas brake down in my boat tank in less then a couple of months recently. Reminds me I have to drain my Harley that’s been sitting for the last couple of years and remove and clean the carb.

[ReloaderEd]

agreed

[JoeJames]

Sea Foam.

[Tripplebeards]

I just siphoned the two-year-old premium fuel out of my Fatboy a few hours ago. I also cleaned out the clogged brass nozzel that sprays fuel directly into the carburetor. The rest of the carb and jets looked as clean as if it was new. I couldn't get all the old fuel out so there was probably an inch of old gas in the bottom of the tank and fuel line feeding into the carburetor. I added a a good half cup of seafoam and filled the tank up with new premium gas. The bike started right away but didn't want to idle till I drove it for about 10 minutes. I blame it on the rest of the old gas that already was in my fuel line going to my carb that couldnt get mixed with the new fuel. After a few minutes the old gas passed through the bike and it ran great. The two year old old premium gas I removed still smells like fresh gas but it made my bike run ruff enough not to idle. I'm sure I could dump it in a lawn mower and run it full throttle and I’m betting it will burn dirty and fowl my plugs. It’s going to get dumped instead.

[fcvan]

My 2005 Sportster has a carburetor. I always turned off the fuel valve a mile or so befor getting home and let the carb run dry, never had a problem. My nieces boyfriend thought that since the keys were in it, he could drive it, he didn't run the fuel out of the carb. My wife chewed his backside for riding my bike without even asking her. She also said she would have told him 'no.'

The next time I rode the bike it ran, but very rough, wouldn't idle. Thank God, my Father in Law is a bike guy and fixed it up. My wife has her own bike, and I also have a 2007 Soft tail. You better believe I gave my FIL the Sportster when he moved in with us.

One thing I didn't hear anyone mention was Marvel Mystery Oil. That works great at cleaning out shellac and crud, and also helps gas keep from going bad. I had some old gas and ran it though an ATV with no problems, no mixing with fresh gas. My mowers, weed eaters get drained at the end of the season, and the quads and such get non-ethanol premium. Sure, it costs more, but the engines run better and cooler as they get run hard at the Oregon Dunes.

The quads in CO are trail riders and don't get hard use. They all get drained at the end of the season, and the fuel cans emptied into the car or truck. My generator gets run every month, sometimes more. I use an electric weed whacker, run by the generator. The gas weed whacker is currently obstinate due to leaking fuel lines at the tank. I took it to a shop and they said they 'couldn't fix it,' not before cutting my fuel lines and refusing to replace them. I got it to run but the leaking fuel connections are still a problem. A little permatex or epoxy should fix it.

One thing is certain, bad gas can mean a bad day, but it can be prevented. SeaFoam, Marvel, Stabil, mixing with fresh gas, can all work well. Heck, even starting and running a couple of minutes on carb/choke cleaner sprayed into the intake before filling the tank.

[dragon813gt]

Use it.

I have used Stabil in my SHTF generator supply cans since 2008. I replace the gas every two years and have never had a problem. When I use it I mix 5 gallons in a fresh tank of gas for the cars. No knocking nor hard starting with the stored gas.

This is exactly what I do. I used to use marine Stabil but I switched to Star Tron. I did switch to ethanol free fuel when I found out I could get it locally. But the run of the mill ethanol laced gas worked just fine after being treated and stored for a few years.

[Tripplebeards]

My 2005 Sportster has a carburetor. I always turned off the fuel valve a mile or so befor getting home and let the carb run dry, never had a problem. My nieces boyfriend thought that since the keys were in it, he could drive it, he didn't run the fuel out of the carb. My wife chewed his backside for riding my bike without even asking her. She also said she would have told him 'no.'

The next time I rode the bike it ran, but very rough, wouldn't idle. Thank God, my Father in Law is a bike guy and fixed it up. My wife has her own bike, and I also have a 2007 Soft tail. You better believe I gave my FIL the Sportster when he moved in with us.

One thing I didn't hear anyone mention was Marvel Mystery Oil. That works great at cleaning out shellac and crud, and also helps gas keep from going bad. I had some old gas and ran it though an ATV with no problems, no mixing with fresh gas. My mowers, weed eaters get drained at the end of the season, and the quads and such get non-ethanol premium. Sure, it costs more, but the engines run better and cooler as they get run hard at the Oregon Dunes.

The quads in CO are trail riders and don't get hard use. They all get drained at the end of the season, and the fuel cans emptied into the car or truck. My generator gets run every month, sometimes more. I use an electric weed whacker, run by the generator. The gas weed whacker is currently obstinate due to leaking fuel lines at the tank. I took it to a shop and they said they 'couldn't fix it,' not before cutting my fuel lines and refusing to replace them. I got it to run but the leaking fuel connections are still a problem. A little permatex or epoxy should fix it.

One thing is certain, bad gas can mean a bad day, but it can be prevented. SeaFoam, Marvel, Stabil, mixing with fresh gas, can all work well. Heck, even starting and running a couple of minutes on carb/choke cleaner sprayed into the intake before filling the tank.

Mine is carburetorated as well. I was the service manager for the local Harley Davidson for four years. Fun place to work but extremely poor pay. We drained and filled countless bike tanks every year and cleaned the carbs because of old gas. Our shop had a manual hand crank and electric pump. The problem is the fuel petcock on my 00' FLSTF will only release fuel when the bike is being cranked over. I didn't feel like removing my tank and dumping it upside down so got out on old aquarium gravel vaccum tube I had laying around. I haven't siphoned gas with a tube and sucking it out with my mouth since I was a kid. I can tell you gas hasn't got any better tasting over the last couple decades.

[fiberoptik]

I had a car sitting for probably two years. Then I needed to use it. I had a 5th of Everclear, so I dumped it in. Ran really good!


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[1hole]

... I left four red plastic 5 gallon cans of unleaded gas treated with StaBil.

Is the gas safe to use in a vehicle and if not what can I safely do with it? Any suggestions will be appreciated. GF

Use it.

I don't believe we've had any gas at all that is not "unleaded" for about 30 years now.

[DougGuy]

I just took 10gal out of my old van, it is running badly and the gas doesn't smell bad, or like varnish, it doesn't smell like gasoline at all! It looks darker orange/red than normal. I put 5gal of fresh gas in the van and it sounds a LOT better. I'm scared to put it in my 2008 Nissan Xterra.

[Ozark mike]

I had a car sitting for probably two years. Then I needed to use it. I had a 5th of Everclear, so I dumped it in. Ran really good!


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Everclear is up to 96 dollars a gallon here. To expensive for my blood to dump it in a vehicle

[uscra112]

Gas goes sour in carbs and Harley fuel tanks because in both instances it's exposed to air. The lightest fractions evaporate. To preserve gas it must be in sealed containers.

[uscra112]

Use it.

I don't believe we've had any gas at all that is not "unleaded" for about 30 years now.


CAM 2 racing gas is leaded, but it's $5.00 a gallon. 100LL aviation gas is also leaded.

[oldred]

I just siphoned the two-year-old premium fuel out of my Fatboy a few hours ago

filled the tank up with new premium gas. .

Maybe that bike requires premium fuel to prevent spark knock but premium of the same brands does not last any longer than regular, in fact except for the anti-knock compounds (and of course the price!) both grades are basically the same.

This is likely to re-start an age old argument but the ONLY difference between premium and "regular" gas (87+ octane) of the same brand is the anti-knock additives, the gas is otherwise the same but way more extensive! Premium gas is probably the biggest scam ever conceived raking in millions in profits for the oil companies out of the pockets of folks paying $.40 to $.80 per gallon for fuel with an anti-knock level they have no need for. If a car NEEDS premium fuel (turbocharged or high performance muscle car engines for example) it will be made known to the owner by the owners manual, usually so marked under the door covering the gas cap and often even on the fuel gauge, if the car/truck is not marked for premium and the owner insists on buying it anyway in the MISTAKEN belief it is somehow beneficial to his/her car then they are wasting a ton of money every year! $.40 adds up to a surprising amount for most people if they add up the true number of gallons used every year and then multiply that by whatever the price difference they are paying.

Sometime back there was an excellent article written titled "Premium gas, not all it's pumped up to be", it's an excellent read if it's still out there somewhere on the staggering amounts of money wasted every year by folks mistakenly thinking they get better mileage or more power with premium. This article explained how for years the oil companies have used misleading sales gimmicks and ads that barely skirt the truth about their premium products vs the regular grades, it's a real eye-opener if it's still out there but even if not there are many others exposing the scam. The detergent engine cleaning additives that most brands proudly tout for their "premium" fuels that extend engine life are real, it's true and it does extend engine life BUT what they fail to tell you is that the "regular" grades contain the same additives! That's a common marketing trick, they're telling the truth about their premium but they just expect folks to assume their regular grades do not have the additives when they actually do. Most all of the beneficial additives are required by law to conform to emission regulation regardless of grade but the oil companies take advantage of unknowing motorists and pull this very common and misleading trick to get folks to pay $.40 to as much as $.80 per gallon when it costs the oil company crooks only a few cents per gallon, a tiny fraction of the mark-up, for what is basically the same gas minus the anti-knock compounds the vast majority of drivers have no use for!

[DougGuy]

Well, I don't know about all that (above). 91 and 93 octane burn slower than 87, which in the miniscule timing of things keeps cylinder pressure slightly higher resulting in pressure curve that lasts a few more crank degrees, so in effect it COULD out perform 87.

Nitro methanol racing fuel is VERY slow burning, which is what makes 12,000 horsepower in a blown hemi racing engine, it holds cylinder pressure for a LONG time while the piston travels down the bore dramatically extending the amount of crank degrees the pressure on top of the piston is pushing on the crank pin.

[oldred]

Well, I don't know about all that (above). 91 and 93 octane burn slower than 87, which in the miniscule timing of things keeps cylinder pressure slightly higher resulting in pressure curve that lasts a few more crank degrees, so in effect it COULD out perform 87.

Nitro methanol racing fuel is VERY slow burning, which is what makes 12,000 horsepower in a blown hemi racing engine, it holds cylinder pressure for a LONG time while the piston travels down the bore dramatically extending the amount of crank degrees the pressure on top of the piston is pushing on the crank pin.

Well yes and no you are partly right about the burning rate but are confusing different engines, engines can be built to take advantage of the extra octane thus allowing for more power. This is what a performance engine is, much higher compression, spark advance and cam timing lets the engine take better advantage of the fuel and thus make more power however doing this requires a much higher octane to prevent detonation which can (will) cause engine damage. In an engine designed for "drivability" and long service life these engine perimeters are dialed back by lowering compression, changing the spark timing curve and peak advance plus milder cam specs resulting in a smoother running, longer lasting and better all-round engine for the daily driver. These engines, due mainly to lower compression and spark timing, run just fine on regular grades of gas and "spark knock" (detonation) does not occur in normal situations thus extra additives that prevent detonation under higher compression and advanced spark settings is not needed and does nothing, except cost more.

The idea that premium makes more power due to it's slower burn is kind of backward, yes it burns slower and thus at lower pressures in an engine optimized for regular fuel. The engine needs higher compression and a faster spark advance to take advantage of premium fuel attributes, premium fuel ALLOWS an engine to be tuned to make more power it's not the fuel itself. If someone wants to split hairs about slower burn, etc then consider this, the anti-knock additives themselves burn way more slowly and by themselves contribute far less power when burned (if any at all!) than an equal amount of pure gasoline but they obviously make up a part of the mix thus displacing actual gasoline in each gallon bought. This means that by buying premium you get more additives and less gasoline in every gallon pumped, additives that contribute little to no power and do nothing in an engine designed for regular. Of course like I said before this is "splitting hairs" and these amounts are very small but still technically due to real gas being replaced with unneeded additives in each gallon it would seem that in a "regular grade" engine mileage would be reduced rather than increased as some folks believe no matter how small the reduction. Basically an engine designed for regular needs more compression, higher spark advance and different cam specs to make use of any advantages that premium might offer.


AS far as the reference to nitro methane that's about as "apples to oranges" as a comparison gets! Nitro vs gas is WAAAAAAY more than just about burn rate and they simply have two very different chemical makeups, such things as BTUs per pound of fuel being far more of a difference than simply burn rate! And that's just the beginning!

[uscra112]

Actually not right about "burn rate", which would be better described as "flame front propagation rate". Within a few decimal points it's the same. The anti-knock compounds prevent secondary flame fronts from forming ahead of the primary, due to radiated heat and pressure. THAT is what "knock" is.

A neat feature of some turbo SAABs I once had in the late '80s was the knock sensor built into what was by today's standards a rather rudimentary Bosch engine management computer. If you put regular gas in them, the computer would dial back the ignition timing if it detected knocking. Power was less, but it didn't knock. At the time it was the only car I knew of that actually DID go faster on premium fuel.

Nitromethane is an oxidizer.

[oldred]

A neat feature of some turbo SAABs I once had in the late '80s was the knock sensor built into what was by today's standards a rather rudimentary Bosch engine management computer. If you put regular gas in them, the computer would dial back the ignition timing if it detected knocking. Power was less, but it didn't knock. At the time it was the only car I knew of that actually DID go faster on premium fuel.

Turbo engines such as that Saab and other high performance cars are examples of cars that normally require premium fuel, an owner should expect to need premium in any turbo engine or even non-turbo cars like most Corvettes, Dodge Challengers, Mustang GTs, etc even most high end luxury cars. What we are talking about is using premium fuel in a common daily driver with a (compared to a high performance) lower compression engine engineered for regular fuel, probably the most common engine on the road. The modern computer controlled spark retarder is of course common place these days on even daily driver non-high performance engines and this is another point some folks make for using premium when it's not called for. The idea is that the controller advances the spark when premium is used but this is only partially correct, using premium in this case only prevents the spark from being retarded in high load conditions such as heavy acceleration or traveling up a steep hill for instance. So yes in those instances the engine would indeed perform better with premium fuel, the problem is that this kind of load comprises only a small part of the overall driving so most of the time there's no difference and for these vehicles there is no way it's going to off-set the extra cost of the premium fuel.

That Saab (in addition to being a really neat ride!) is a high performance engine in every sense and is a rare example of an engine designed for premium but with a neat bit of engineering to allow it to run on lower grades of fuel when needed.

[uscra112]

Interesting factoid is that the geometric compression ratio in those 900 turbos was only 7:1.

The engine in the 900s wasn't originally a high performance engine at all. A pedestrian four-banger licensed from Triumph for their 99 model. The early turbos were terribly unreliable, because the increased heat load caused a thin spot behind the #3 exhaust valve to break into the water jacket. And if THAT didn't happen, it would warp and blow the head gasket between the #2 and #3 cylinders. I got very good at swapping heads on the early versions. SAAB's new 4-valve head eliminated all those troubles. Their electrical systems still stunk, though.

After GM took over, they redesigned the SAAB chassis to use what we called the L850 engine, which went into all kinds of Opels, Chevys, and you-name-it. THAT engine WAS designed from the ground up for turbocharging, although only the SAAB 9000 got it. Rumor around Pontiac when I was a first-tier GM supplier was that they had bought SAAB solely for the turbo knowledge base. Truth of which I can confirm, because one of my '89's was bought from a Swedish engineer who had been at Pontiac for some time. I never really looked into it, but he must have messed with it some, because it was definitely quicker than my other two '89s. Got totalled a couple of years later in a head-on with a drunk, sad to say.

I retired in 2009, so know nothing about what GM have done since.

[Lloyd Smale]

Me? I wouldn't run it im my 40k vehicles. No way. Id run it in a crude motor like a briggs and Stratton or koler 4 stroke law mower, snow blower, garden tractor ect. If I didn't have something like that id find someone who did and see if they wanted to try to use it up. Buddy just had a ONE fuel injector replaced on his Jeep and it cost him a bit over 400 bucks. Hardly worth the gamble. if it had been one year id say go for it but not two. If you insist on feeding your car or pickup id maybe put 2 gallons to a full tank. No more.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Interesting factoid is that the geometric compression ratio in those 900 turbos was only 7:1.

The engine in the 900s wasn't originally a high performance engine at all. A pedestrian four-banger licensed from Triumph for their 99 model. The early turbos were terribly unreliable, because the increased heat load caused a thin spot behind the #3 exhaust valve to break into the water jacket. And if THAT didn't happen, it would warp and blow the head gasket between the #2 and #3 cylinders. I got very good at swapping heads on the early versions. SAAB's new 4-valve head eliminated all those troubles. Their electrical systems still stunk, though.

After GM took over, they redesigned the SAAB chassis to use what we called the L850 engine, which went into all kinds of Opels, Chevys, and you-name-it. THAT engine WAS designed from the ground up for turbocharging, although only the SAAB 9000 got it. Rumor around Pontiac when I was a first-tier GM supplier was that they had bought SAAB solely for the turbo knowledge base. Truth of which I can confirm, because one of my '89's was bought from a Swedish engineer who had been at Pontiac for some time. I never really looked into it, but he must have messed with it some, because it was definitely quicker than my other two '89s. Got totalled a couple of years later in a head-on with a drunk, sad to say.

I retired in 2009, so know nothing about what GM have done since.
In the late 80s and early 1990s, I owned 3 different Saabs. A 1973 99 and a 1975 99 and a '81 900 Turbo.
I read the previous posts about the Turbo being a high performance car and choked on my Coffee, Because my '81 Turbo was a DOG...as far as turbos go...I'm glad to hear later model 900 Turbo's had a better engine/setup. In fact the '73 99 that I had was a three speed and if you weren't afraid of pushing the RPMs, she was a quick ride, better than the '81 Turbo for sure, but that old 99 must have had a 3/4" pipe feeding the fuel injectors, because I'd barely get 12 MPH with it...it was a fuel hog for sure.

Also, one thing my Saab Mechanic (He was also my used Saab Salesman) did for me on the '81 900 Turbo, was to add a Turbo saver kit. It was a 1 Qt canister in the oil cooling system for the Turbo, so when you shut off the car, Oil would keep circulating through the turbo unit for about a minute or two, until that quart canister of oil emptied...Cuz yeah, it got HOT.

[uscra112]

I never ran across that Turbo Saver kit, but we all knew to idle the engine for 2-3 minutes before shutting down if you pulled into a rest stop off the Interstate. At those speeds the hot side of the turbo would actually glow a dull red that you could see in the dark when the engine was working hard.

In the early days the turbos were actually bought from Garret Airreaserch (sp?). I've always assumed that they were repurposed from aircraft engines, which by their nature get a cool-down period during and after landing.

[Lloyd Smale]

Maybe that bike requires premium fuel to prevent spark knock but premium of the same brands does not last any longer than regular, in fact except for the anti-knock compounds (and of course the price!) both grades are basically the same.

This is likely to re-start an age old argument but the ONLY difference between premium and "regular" gas (87+ octane) of the same brand is the anti-knock additives, the gas is otherwise the same but way more extensive! Premium gas is probably the biggest scam ever conceived raking in millions in profits for the oil companies out of the pockets of folks paying $.40 to $.80 per gallon for fuel with an anti-knock level they have no need for. If a car NEEDS premium fuel (turbocharged or high performance muscle car engines for example) it will be made known to the owner by the owners manual, usually so marked under the door covering the gas cap and often even on the fuel gauge, if the car/truck is not marked for premium and the owner insists on buying it anyway in the MISTAKEN belief it is somehow beneficial to his/her car then they are wasting a ton of money every year! $.40 adds up to a surprising amount for most people if they add up the true number of gallons used every year and then multiply that by whatever the price difference they are paying.

Sometime back there was an excellent article written titled "Premium gas, not all it's pumped up to be", it's an excellent read if it's still out there somewhere on the staggering amounts of money wasted every year by folks mistakenly thinking they get better mileage or more power with premium. This article explained how for years the oil companies have used misleading sales gimmicks and ads that barely skirt the truth about their premium products vs the regular grades, it's a real eye-opener if it's still out there but even if not there are many others exposing the scam. The detergent engine cleaning additives that most brands proudly tout for their "premium" fuels that extend engine life are real, it's true and it does extend engine life BUT what they fail to tell you is that the "regular" grades contain the same additives! That's a common marketing trick, they're telling the truth about their premium but they just expect folks to assume their regular grades do not have the additives when they actually do. Most all of the beneficial additives are required by law to conform to emission regulation regardless of grade but the oil companies take advantage of unknowing motorists and pull this very common and misleading trick to get folks to pay $.40 to as much as $.80 per gallon when it costs the oil company crooks only a few cents per gallon, a tiny fraction of the mark-up, for what is basically the same gas minus the anti-knock compounds the vast majority of drivers have no use for!

i agree totaly. I chuckle at guys with a malibu saying they get better mileage with premium. Octane is a burn retartant that slows down combustion. It is not more effiecient burning fuel. If anything its less. you will get the best performance with the octane your car company says to use in your car. If it calls for regular buy regular. If like in a performance car they have the timing advanced a bit for hp and call for premium use that. Most cars computers would need a adjustment to see any benifit from premium. They limit timing and fuel air mixtures and unlike some believe wont automaticaly adjust when you run better gas. The will ajust down like in most performance cars buy sensing knock but if a car is tuned for 87 its not going to do better with 93. Only place i sway from that advice is small engines. Alcohol is the biggest causer of problems in them. Up here we have 91 octane premium in most places and its alcohol free and thats what i feed my small engines. 93 octane about allways has alcohol. Im even so anal with small engines that when i fill gas cans for them i first pump 5 gallons into my car or truck to make sure the alcohol gas from the last person at the pump that remained in the hose goes into my truck not my can.

[Lloyd Smale]

In the late 80s and early 1990s, I owned 3 different Saabs. A 1973 99 and a 1975 99 and a '81 900 Turbo.
I read the previous posts about the Turbo being a high performance car and choked on my Coffee, Because my '81 Turbo was a DOG...as far as turbos go...I'm glad to hear later model 900 Turbo's had a better engine/setup. In fact the '73 99 that I had was a three speed and if you weren't afraid of pushing the RPMs, she was a quick ride, better than the '81 Turbo for sure, but that old 99 must have had a 3/4" pipe feeding the fuel injectors, because I'd barely get 12 MPH with it...it was a fuel hog for sure.

Also, one thing my Saab Mechanic (He was also my used Saab Salesman) did for me on the '81 900 Turbo, was to add a Turbo saver kit. It was a 1 Qt canister in the oil cooling system for the Turbo, so when you shut off the car, Oil would keep circulating through the turbo unit for about a minute or two, until that quart canister of oil emptied...Cuz yeah, it got HOT.

we used those what you call turbo savers on our grand nationals back in the day. Why? because they were old school technology and used babbited bearings. Todays roller bearing turbos dont need them. For the uniformed what they did was run a dedicated electric oil pump that only came on when you shut your car off for a preset amount of time. Reason is if you got on your car hard and spooled up the turbo and then came to an abrupt stop the turbo would take some time to slow and stop and with the old turbos that would tend to wipe bearings. Mine was tapped right into my oil pan and had a return line that went back to the oil pan. Ive never seen one that you had to fill with oil. Had mine on for 6 months and then ditched the factory turbo and went with a larger ball bearing turbo. Todays turbos dont have dedicated oil systems but alot of them have water cooling to take away some of the heat and make the idle down thing not necessary. About all of them are intercooled today too as are the better supercharger set ups. Heat is the bane of superchargers and especially turbos.

My grand national picked up 50 rear wheel hp when i added a bigger intercooler. It not only cooled the air charge but because it did it so efficiently i could run 3 more lbs of boost. That was with the stock turbo. It was an absolute necessity with the bigger turbo just for flow volume. First mod the GN guys usually did was a bigger intercooler, down pipe and a voltage adjuster that would put a couple more volts to the fuel pump to boost pressure and a chip that let them run 18 or so lbs of boost. For under 500 bucks you could add over a 100 hp a 150 if you ran race gas and jumped up to 22 lbs of boost. Theres many GNs that ran in the high 11s set up like that. That was unheard of in the 80s. that was when corvettes out of the box were lucky to hit mid 14s and the only way to get them into the 11s was again with turbos and superchargers and they were expensive. Small block chev guys of the day only dreamed about hp per dollar numbers like that. Only way to do it that cheap on a small block would be nitrous and i had one bad experience with that on a camaro i had and wouldnt fool with it again.

[oldred]

i agree totaly. I chuckle at guys with a malibu saying they get better mileage with premium. Octane is a burn retartant that slows down combustion. It is not more effiecient burning fuel. If anything its less.

That's the usual thought when someone pays the ridiculous mark-up for premium when they don't need it, they THINK they get better miliage and their engine lasts longer when in fact they could easily be getting less mileage with premium due to the fact they get slightly less actual gasoline and more non-burning (for power anyway) additives per gallon pumped. Of course this difference is so minuscule as to be unnoticeable and is of no concern BUT the fact is that instead of better mileage it's actually likely to be less no matter how minuscule the difference.

Also as you pointed out engines designed for regular will retard timing when needed if regular is used but they do not dial it up when premium is used, unless spark knock is detected the optimum timing is the same for both fuels (from an emissions standpoint and THAT is what the computer goes by)! I can't understand why some folks can argue that premium somehow causes the computer to re-tune the engine to a higher performance setting, the computer can sense knock and retard timing from it's optimum setting but there is no sensor that can detect premium gas so that spark would be advanced when premium is in the tank! In all but a tiny set of driving situations the timing will be at the same setting regardless of the fuel being used, yes it can be argued that fuel mileage will drop when the computer retards spark to prevent detonation with regular and use of premium will prevent this but this situation occurs so infrequently and for such short durations there simply no way it's going to offset that absurd price difference in fuels -not even close!

Those who want to argue that "yeah but my engine knocks all the time with regular but not with premium" have a bigger problem than just gas! Many engine problems can lead to "knocking" but switching to premium is an expensive "bandaid" approach that targets the symptom and not the problem, fix the danged engine problem THEN use the right gas!

One place premium is of a big benefit is in two stroke engines. Oddly enough two stroke oil tends to slightly lower the octane level of gasoline thus the detonation point of regular may in some cases be too low for the engine. This of course being in addition to avoiding gasolines with alcohol in any amounts, avoid alcohol like the plague when choosing fuel for these engines!

[la5676]

If it's gasoline, no problem - if you live in a humid environment, add some HEET or similar. If it's ethanol, put some in a clear container - if any brown discolouration is in it I wouldn't use it (alcohol is hydrophilic and will pull water in with the gas over time.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

I don't understand why some get their panties in a wad over ehtanol, and then in the same breath, suggest adding the same thing more or less in the form of HEET.

The specific active ingredients of HEET and ISO-HEET are methanol and isopropanol, respectively. Amazingly enough, ethanol works precisely the same way: Water is absorbed by the ethanol and then gets vaporized in the combustion process.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

...we used those what you call turbo savers on our grand nationals back in the day.
... For the uniformed what they did was run a dedicated electric oil pump that only came on when you shut your car off for a preset amount of time.
... Mine was tapped right into my oil pan and had a return line that went back to the oil pan. Ive never seen one that you had to fill with oil.

The "Turbo Saver kit" was likely a aftermarket package, or maybe a Saab product? It's been 3 decades and my memory fails me, and I've never really been a gearhead, so lots of that stuff is easily forgotten. I've owned a lot of different cars over the 4 decades I've been driving, maybe 35 or so? all different models and makes, just want to try them all, LOL. I learned from my Dad to always be wheel'n and deal'n.
ANYWAY, as I recall, the "Turbo Saver Kit" didn't have a dedicated pump. I didn't have to fill it with oil. It was installed inline with the oil supply to the Turbo and it had a 1 qt sized canister, which was mounted above the turbo, it was either providing oil by gravity? or maybe some sort of spring loaded piston inside the Canister.

[Lloyd Smale]

no doubt could be made to work like that.

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't understand why some get their panties in a wad over ehtanol, and then in the same breath, suggest adding the same thing more or less in the form of HEET.

The specific active ingredients of HEET and ISO-HEET are methanol and isopropanol, respectively. Amazingly enough, ethanol works precisely the same way: Water is absorbed by the ethanol and then gets vaporized in the combustion process.

If most people would keep the heat and isopropyl alcohol out of there tank there water problems would go away. I can honestly say i havent had fuel with water in it for 30 years.

[Lloyd Smale]

That's the usual thought when someone pays the ridiculous mark-up for premium when they don't need it, they THINK they get better miliage and their engine lasts longer when in fact they could easily be getting less mileage with premium due to the fact they get slightly less actual gasoline and more non-burning (for power anyway) additives per gallon pumped. Of course this difference is so minuscule as to be unnoticeable and is of no concern BUT the fact is that instead of better mileage it's actually likely to be less no matter how minuscule the difference.

Also as you pointed out engines designed for regular will retard timing when needed if regular is used but they do not dial it up when premium is used, unless spark knock is detected the optimum timing is the same for both fuels (from an emissions standpoint and THAT is what the computer goes by)! I can't understand why some folks can argue that premium somehow causes the computer to re-tune the engine to a higher performance setting, the computer can sense knock and retard timing from it's optimum setting but there is no sensor that can detect premium gas so that spark would be advanced when premium is in the tank! In all but a tiny set of driving situations the timing will be at the same setting regardless of the fuel being used, yes it can be argued that fuel mileage will drop when the computer retards spark to prevent detonation with regular and use of premium will prevent this but this situation occurs so infrequently and for such short durations there simply no way it's going to offset that absurd price difference in fuels -not even close!

Those who want to argue that "yeah but my engine knocks all the time with regular but not with premium" have a bigger problem than just gas! Many engine problems can lead to "knocking" but switching to premium is an expensive "bandaid" approach that targets the symptom and not the problem, fix the danged engine problem THEN use the right gas!

One place premium is of a big benefit is in two stroke engines. Oddly enough two stroke oil tends to slightly lower the octane level of gasoline thus the detonation point of regular may in some cases be too low for the engine. This of course being in addition to avoiding gasolines with alcohol in any amounts, avoid alcohol like the plague when choosing fuel for these engines!

havent had a engine actually spark knock so bad i could hear it in 30 years either. Most modern cars will pulling timing when the knock sensor hears spark knock way before its bad enough to hear. If your motor is knocking 99 times out of a 100 it isnt detonation any more. Had one guy a shot time back tell me his f150 was spark knocking. he said everytime he goes up a hill or pulls a load it knocks. I told him he had a bearing or valve knock and shortly after he was searching for a used motor because a rod went through his block. No real surprise as that 302 had over 250k on it and it wasnt an easy 250k. .