Smokeless powder cylinder for Ruger Old Army

[Onty]

Anybody interested in SMOKELESS POWDER CYLINDER FOR RUGER OLD ARMY?

I just had a conversation with the lady from Howell Arms https://www.howellarms.com/ regarding manufacturing of SMOKELESS CYLINDER FOR MUZZLE-LOADING REVOLVER, using 209 shotgun primers. They have patent for such cylinder:

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=US&NR=2005016050&KC=&FT=E&locale=en_EP#

US2005016050 (A1) - SMOKELESS CYLINDER FOR MUZZLE-LOADING REVOLVER

266348

They made some years back, and as it stands now, they consider that market is limited for such product, and have no intention of manufacturing it at present time. However, if we can organize group buy (GB) and have order for at least 50 cylinders to be made, either standard alloy (blue) or stainless, they will consider manufacturing them again. As for the price, I do not have it yet, but expect to be tad more than their conversion cylinders for 45 ACP and 45 Colt.

So what do you say on this, anybody interested?

FYI, I will post the same on two other forums, and hopefully, we will have order for 50.

[Outpost75]

I don't see the point if it costs more than the .45 ACP or .45 Colt conversion cylinders which you can shoot factory ammo in.

[Onty]

I don't see the point if it costs more than the .45 ACP or .45 Colt conversion cylinders which you can shoot factory ammo in.

Good point! However, I have even better one; why somebody would spend for conversion cylinder anywhere from $240 (https://www.howellarms.com/ruger-old-army/ruger-old-army-45-acp) to $365 (https://shop.kirstkonverter.com/?product=700-104-ruger-old-army-stainless-steel-konverter-assembly-45-acp), when for $659.99 (https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/205229/0446/ruger-new-model-blackhawk-convertible-45-colt45-acp-single-action-revolver) could be purchased brand new NMB Convertible 45 Colt/45 ACP?

Well, in free countries folks do certain things because they can. Many of us just like Ruger Old Army. However, shooting black powder, Pyrodex and Triple 7 could be a hassle. Those are more or less corrosive and create crude residue, and revolver has to be taken apart from time to time to be thoroughly cleaned. Also, those primers some time fell down locking revolver. On top of that, many indoor ranges prohibit black powder or any smoky substitutes. In regions where winters are long and cold, that means no shooting good part of the year. So, it would be a nice to have as an option a cylinder that could be used with 209 primers and smokeless powders.

[Ozark mike]

Didnt ruger test their cylinders with smokless

[Outpost75]

Didnt ruger test their cylinders with smokless

Yes they did, but I won't post the "recipe."

[ddixie884]

That is good cause if I remember it right it is scary............

[Outpost75]

That is good cause if I remember it right it is scary............

Old Army proof approximated SAAMI proof level for smokeless .45 Colt, about double the expected black powder pressure.

[Newtire]

Those Kirst converter cylinders were designed to be shot with smokeless loads loaded to cowboy load specs. if I remember correctly. Leastwise, that’s the way some folks I know have been doing it for years, including my shaving partner.

[koyote]

I doubt you'll get your 50 if all the responses are negative, but I'd be in for a pair.

[Newtire]

I just saw a guy on YouTube telling everyone how he uses smokeless in his Pietta. It was “Clays” powder and he is saying it’s a “safe powder to use because it’s used in light loads” (or something like that). What’s more, he uses a small kitchen measuring spoon and just uses a little bit so it’s OK. I kid you not. I’m going to go look & see if it’s still up and send a warning to YouTubers.

[koyote]

yeah, i've seen the video. aside from a rather ... informal powder measure.......problem is he has no control over case capacity, really. That's the major issue and why I would love one or three of these cylinders from howell

[Onty]

yeah, i've seen the video. aside from a rather ... informal powder measure.......problem is he has no control over case capacity, really. That's the major issue and why I would love one or three of these cylinders from howell

The point is that every shooter must have a control while loading. We have to be responsible. I would expect that manufacturer will supply basic loads. Since we are talking about 2 dia in the chamber, this will prevent pushing boolit too far inside the chamber. I have no any info about eventual powder space of this cylinder, but I have feeling that loads could be close to those for .455 Colt/Eley or .455 Webley Mk I.

Let be straight; nobody can stop any of us from filling 45 Colt case with Bullseye and put on top 260 grains bullet. Well, we don't do that, because we know very well what will be consequences.

[Onty]

Here is that mind boggling video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6rDrpt0MTc&t=230s . He is showing can of Clays (fast smokeless powder), he used. How on the earth he "figured out that correct charge is ...about 2/3 of quarter tea spoon"?

Also, here is the link to thread where a gentleman (at that time 15 years old kid) explained how he managed to wreck even Ruger Old Army https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/how-long-do-black-powder-revolvers-last.866073/page-3 .

[koyote]

yes, I've seen the video.

I would probably be using red dot or bullseye, anyway. is there a problem with fast powders?

[uscra112]

Sounds like a job for Trailboss. Maybe it's good for something after all........

[Onty]

yes, I've seen the video.

I would probably be using red dot or bullseye, anyway. is there a problem with fast powders?

No, of course. Problem is that using "2/3 of quarter tea spoon" as a way of measuring fast burning powder will certainly lead (sooner or later) to too much powder, and result will be extremely high pressure. This is especially dangerous when shooting 44 cal. Remington 1858, because those revolvers have fairly thin cylinder walls. Those cylinders are OK for black powder, but for smokeless!?

[M-Tecs]

Sounds like a job for Trailboss. Maybe it's good for something after all........

Trailboss from what I have read does not like to be compressed so even with a two step chamber it may not be a great choice.

[koyote]

No, of course. Problem is that using "2/3 of quarter tea spoon" as a way of measuring fast burning powder will certainly lead (sooner or later) to too much powder, and result will be extremely high pressure. This is especially dangerous when shooting 44 cal. Remington 1858, because those revolvers have fairly thin cylinder walls. Those cylinders are OK for black powder, but for smokeless!?

okay, and? I feel like I've read this three times before. I am aware that the problems of using a variable measure, variable seating depth, and variable ignition are problematic problems. Yep! there's entire threads about that.

got it.

[Savvy Jack]

Sounds like a job for Trailboss. Maybe it's good for something after all........

Trail Boss is a "high pressure low velocity" powder, but it is accurate!

[koyote]

I tried trail boss for a bit. It's not bad, but red dot is generally available, way cheaper, and still fluffy enough that it's hard to double charge a typical straight wall pistol case.

[uscra112]

Trailboss and Red Dot give you almost exactly the same peak pressure for a given velocity. The old standby Bullseye is a bit lower. I still have half a can of TB left from a trial in a normally super-accurate 9" Colt Officers Model. Accuracy was abysmal, vs. my usual Bullseye load. Maybe it's better in bigger cases? Nope. .32-40 single shot rifle, same-same. And by weight you have to load about 35% more TB, vs. Red Dot. Not economical.

All that said, if Bubba just HAS to load smokeless in his ROA, let it be Trailboss. He'll at least be prevented from double charging.

Could you press sleeves into the ROA cylinder to reduce the powder space?

I'd set up the ROA chamber as a cartridge case in Quickload, but too sleepy tonight. Not sure I'd want to publish any data anyway. Anybody else with QL and a ROA care to risk it?

[Onty]

Trailboss and Red Dot give you almost exactly the same peak pressure for a given velocity. The old standby Bullseye is a bit lower. I still have half a can of TB left from a trial in a normally super-accurate 9" Colt Officers Model. Accuracy was abysmal, vs. my usual Bullseye load. Maybe it's better in bigger cases? Nope. .32-40 single shot rifle, same-same. And by weight you have to load about 35% more TB, vs. Red Dot. Not economical.

All that said, if Bubba just HAS to load smokeless in his ROA, let it be Trailboss. He'll at least be prevented from double charging.

Could you press sleeves into the ROA cylinder to reduce the powder space?

I'd set up the ROA chamber as a cartridge case in Quickload, but too sleepy tonight. Not sure I'd want to publish any data anyway. Anybody else with QL and a ROA care to risk it?
As a matter of fact, I was thinking about installing sleeve you mentioned, something like .375"ID x .550" long. Since chamber is about 1.370" deep, that will leave me .800" for a boolit, long enough even for 255 HB base boolit I am proposing in another thread. However, my concern is that even all parts will be from stainless steel, some corrosion between sleeve and cylinder will develop eventually.

If sleeve is not used, to prevent boolit pushing too far into cylinder, I was thinking about modifying ramming plunger, so when revolver loading lever is all the way down, boolit will go about .080" bellow cylinder front face. That will leave me powder space Ø.452"x.560", about 1,473 ccm. Actually tad more, because of cone on bottom of the chamber, 209 primer space, and hollow base of the boolit.

Just before Christmas, I managed to get second cylinder for my ROA, thinking about modifying it so I can use 209 shotgun primers. Will have to make back plate, preferably with loading gate, something like this:

https://www.kirstkonverter.com/1858-remington/7-20-58-Rem-SS.jpg

Having full dia hole for 209 primers, will allow dumping powder in chamber from back side of cylinder, after boolit is in its place.

So, if you have a chance, I would appreciate if you can calculate loads for some revolver smokeless powders for following conditions.

- Primer shotgun 209
- Boolit lead 255 grains,
- Powder space 1,473 ccm
- Pressure 12.500 PSI

The goal was to have a load that will be close to original 45 Colt load, 250 grain boolit at 900 fps. Worked so well for century and half, it should work well another century and half.

To avoid legal issues, you can send me loads using PM here, or on e-mail ibcdiesel at netscape dot net.

Thanks!

[koyote]

Trailboss and Red Dot give you almost exactly the same peak pressure for a given velocity. The old standby Bullseye is a bit lower.

yep! RD is less than half the price, more accurate. TB is a bit more volume (which might actually be the reason it's so hard to get accurate)