Using Vibration to Settle Black Powder

[texasmac]

For those of you that do not subscribe to the Single Shot Exchange Magazine, I just posted the article at the link below. The article was published in the August edition.

http://www.texas-mac.com/Using-Vibration-to-Settle-and-Compact-Black-Powder.html

Wayne

[Ozark mike]

Drop tube wins. So whats the point of using the vibrator

[texasmac]

Drop tube wins. So whats the point of using the vibrator

In the example in the article there was hardly any difference between the drop tube and using vibration and, as noted, there is no discernible difference when loading cases with less powder capacity than in the plastic tube example. The big advantage of using vibration is it's a heck of a lot faster. Just dump the powder directly into the case using a dispenser and vibrate.

Wayne

[indian joe]

In the example in the article there was hardly any difference between the drop tube and using vibration and, as noted, there is no discernible difference when loading cases with less powder capacity than in the plastic tube example. The big advantage of using vibration is it's a heck of a lot faster. Just dump the powder directly into the case using a dispenser and vibrate.

Wayne

If the end result is equal accuracy - I vote for the vibration - pouring through a drop tube is a PITA...................

[texasmac]

If the end result is equal accuracy - I vote for the vibration - pouring through a drop tube is a PITA...................

As noted in the article, I get the same accuracy using either method.
Wayne

[indian joe]

As noted in the article, I get the same accuracy using either method.
Wayne

Thanks for stirring this up - I will test it for sure - drop tubing is the one part of reloading I dont enjoy ------------------

[smithnframe]

I use both........after filling case with drop tube I put them in a loading block and when I'm done with all of the cases I turn on my case tumbler and hold the base of each cartridge on the lid for 5 seconds!

[greenjoytj]

I did a similar test to compare BP settling by a a long drop tube.
To settling by vibration alone.
To settling the BP poured through a aluminium Saturn brand funnel.

The Saturn funnel has a bump stamped into the side of the funnel down near the neck.
The powder flow is disrupted by this bump scattering the powder granules as they fall down the funnel neck.

My results proved to me that filling cartridge cases with a slow pour through the Saturn funnel alone settled the powder down low enough to be easily further compressed with my compression die. (I don’t like to use the bullet to compress the powder).
This saved time by simplifying and speeding up case charging.

Applying vibration to a case after being funnel filled did cause a very slight further settling but to me it was not worth the extra time and effort for so little extra settling.

[rfd]

or, just maybe you could do as lee shaver did to win the world champs in south africa - powder measure dump direct to the case, with a lyman 55 to boot. uh huh, yup. :mrgreen: :popcorn:

[Chill Wills]

or, just maybe you could do as lee shaver did to win the world champs in south africa - powder measure dump direct to the case, with a lyman 55 to boot. uh huh, yup. :mrgreen: :popcorn:

I am a little lost. When Did Lee Shaver shoot a cartridge rifle in RSA?

[greenjoytj]

or, just maybe you could do as lee shaver did to win the world champs in south africa - powder measure dump direct to the case, with a lyman 55 to boot. uh huh, yup. :mrgreen: :popcorn:

Maybe his Lyman 55 measure is like mine came a 24” drop tube attachment.;-)

[rfd]

Maybe his Lyman 55 measure is like mine came a 24” drop tube attachment.;-)

nope, lee ditched the drop tube, too.

[rfd]

I am a little lost. When Did Lee Shaver shoot a cartridge rifle in RSA?

SSE, may 2020, lee's "a funny thing happened on the way to the range ... " byline.

cartridge rifle (rifle make and cartridge not mentioned), south africa world champs, i don't know the year but he set a world record and won the championship.

no scale, no drop tube, lyman 55 direct into the case, he does mention using some compression.

food for thought?

[Castaway]

What happens when you vibrate the drop tube column? Probably not but is there a difference in a small diameter column and a large diameter (38 bs 50) between vibrating and a using a drop tube?

[greenjoytj]

I found adding vibration to a case powder charged by either the long drop tube method or swirled into the case through a Saturn funnel the vibration will always settle the powder slightly lower.
For me the time spent applying the vibration wasn’t worth the very slight additional reduction in powder column height.
Just a slow pour through the Saturn funnel, then squashing the powder column down with a steel compression plug mounted in my expander die body provided all the space above the powder column to gently seat the bullet without applying any strain on the bullet.
I do measure the required bullet insertion length and check in the case with my vernier caliper that I have compressed the powder column down the required distance plus an extra 5 thou to allow for case length variations.

I am not a believer in the theory of defining the powder charge by some measured degree of compression. Rather I define my powder charge by grain weight of fuel poured into the case.

I use the mechanical advantage of the reloading press with a steel compression plug to achieve the space required above the powder to seat my bullet to its crimp point.
Do I hear a crunching sound when the powder is compressed? Of course I do, it doesn’t bother me at all. Because I know every case has the same weight fuel load and the bullets will be seated to the same COL.

[John Boy]

If the end result is equal accuracy - I vote for the vibration - pouring through a drop tube is a PITA................... Supporting Wayne's article about vibrating instead of using a drop tube for compression ... there was an article in the BPC News magazine years ago that compared the accuracy between vibration & drop tube compression using different brands and grades of powder.... there was no difference
I haven't used a drop tube since I read that article. I bought a small 2 speed egg shaped vibrator at a sex store years back for overpriced 20 bucks and it works fine. A multi speed Sonicare tooth brush is another vibrator I use also

[Chill Wills]

SSE, may 2020, lee's "a funny thing happened on the way to the range ... " byline.

cartridge rifle (rifle make and cartridge not mentioned), south africa world champs, i don't know the year but he set a world record and won the championship.

no scale, no drop tube, lyman 55 direct into the case, he does mention using some compression.

food for thought?

Okay.

I am not taking the SSE these days. I miss not getting all the BPTR and BPCR publications I used to but sometimes there is little in them it seems. That is not a knock on them. A fresh audience will get a lot out of it. On the other hand, it would be fun to get it for a few years again.

Something did not seem right with Lee Shaver shooting a cartridge rifle in championships in RSA.
I was at the last Black Powder Cartridge rifle championship held there in 2006. Lee was not there, but no mater, that is off the point. In support of the idea that you can just dump in the correct amount of powder, seat the bullet and shoot a great score; I say YES! It can and is done. It is risky at an away match using unknown powder lots. Doing so may also produce less than match winning accuracy. A bit of a crap shoot. (sorry) I have a story of someone that did not work out for.... a long trip for nothing.

I would be interested in seeing the May 2020 SSE to see what Lee wrote. He has been a Long Range ML for many years dropping BPCR, BPTR, and to the best of my knowledge, RSA has only held ML Championships since 2006. No Cartridge rifle matches.
But the devil is in the details and I don't mean to doubt your reporting. I really need to read the May issue.

take care.

[rfd]

Okay.

I am not taking the SSE these days. I miss not getting all the BPTR and BPCR publications I used to but sometimes there is little in them it seems. That is not a knock on them. A fresh audience will get a lot out of it. On the other hand, it would be fun to get it for a few years again.

Something did not seem right with Lee Shaver shooting a cartridge rifle in championships in RSA.
I was at the last Black Powder Cartridge rifle championship held there in 2006. Lee was not there, but no mater, that is off the point. In support of the idea that you can just dump in the correct amount of powder, seat the bullet and shoot a great score; I say YES! It can and is done. It is risky at an away match using unknown powder lots. Doing so may also produce less than match winning accuracy. A bit of a crap shoot. (sorry) I have a story of someone that did not work out for.... a long trip for nothing.

I would be interested in seeing the May 2020 SSE to see what Lee wrote. He has been a Long Range ML for many years dropping BPCR, BPTR, and to the best of my knowledge, RSA has only held ML Championships since 2006. No Cartridge rifle matches.
But the devil is in the details and I don't mean to doubt your reporting. I really need to read the May issue.

take care.

you have a PM ......

[Chill Wills]

Thank you rob! That clears it up.
Though it is not all referenced in his writing, he is referring to two events. A BPTR Creedmoor match in Raton and much later a BPTR ML match (long range muzzle loader) in RSA. He described to his readers the shortcut he took to get ready for a Cartridge Rifle match about Raton 20 plus years ago. He did not win it but was satisfied with the accuracy. He then moved his writing ahead to the ML championships in RSA about a dozen years ago, uses the story about quickly throwing his ML powder charges using a meter (into small glass vials) no scale and is then on his way to the inspect the range. Then goes on to win the Muzzle loading match with the thrown charges. In RSA, because the match is all ML there is no cartridge case, no compression. Just a ML barrel length drop tube. A wad and a bullet.

None of this maters.
His point and yours is, you can make an accurate load just dropping powder from a meter into a case, no drop tube and no vibration. Just seating a bullet. And I agree, it can happen.
But if it does not happen with the components on hand, it is good to have a few additional/reliable loading tricks to improve your odds of making a consistent load.

-OT
Hey Wayne, I haven't installed the sight level vials yet. It turns out I am also missing the end cap.

[rfd]

chill et al,

i kinda figured the RSA event was strictly ML, and knew the raton match was cartridge, but clearly his point was that throwing alone worked for him. would dumping direct to the case or muzzle work for everyone? probably not. with my PPB reformed and constricted .45-70 starline brass there is no way i'll get in 80+ grains of swiss 1-1/2f without a drop tube. :)

cheers,
rob.

[Edward]

And then you have the 30 inch drop tube going into the brass case sitting on a vibrating base curtsy of attached electric razor. Works great !

[Savvy Jack]

Thanks for stirring this up - I will test it for sure - drop tubing is the one part of reloading I dont enjoy ------------------

While you are at it, set one up for "tapping" the base of the case a few times too.

[John Boy]

While you are at it, set one up for "tapping" the base of the case a few times too.
Jack - Yep, done that too. Several years back there was a 45-70 match shooter at the Raton BPCR target matches who was a tapper... and if I remember was in the top 5 [smilie=1:

[BrentD]

I love drop tubing and vibrating at the same time. If you can win without either, by all means go for it. But I like my set up just fine and it tends to work pretty well, especially if "consistent" is an important adjective to your reloading results. Also helps fit 80+ grains of powder into a.45-70 shell. I just built a second vibrating drop tube to work with my wad seating and compression die.

https://i.imgur.com/N9vltG2.jpg

[indian joe]

I love drop tubing and vibrating at the same time. If you can win without either, by all means go for it. But I like my set up just fine and it tends to work pretty well, especially if "consistent" is an important adjective to your reloading results. Also helps fit 80+ grains of powder into a.45-70 shell. I just built a second vibrating drop tube to work with my wad seating and compression die.

https://i.imgur.com/N9vltG2.jpg

these discussions always generate something useful even if there is disagreement along the way - my shoulder aches from holding high and slow pouring into the funnel on the drop tube - that second offset funnel might do the trick - thanks Brent

[BrentD]

IJ,
my second droptube has only one funnel but the neat part is that I just dump the powder into the top funnel, however many there are, and flip the switch on the vibrating device. That keeps the powder flowing while I go about measuring the next charge of powder. So, I get the slow pour effect without having to hold my hand up there pouring it myself.

I also mount the drop tube to a table with a clamp on that block on the left side in the above picture. That keeps the funnels at about eye level. No straining. Makin' it easy but consistent is what it's all about.