Do you have revolvers that lead.

[Bazoo]

I have a GP100 and a SBH that both lead. Both at the forcing cone and then into the first inch of the bore. So I've been researching causes and remedies to this. I don't see others complaining about having these issues. Why not? Do you just deal with it? Does everyone else figure out how to fix the issue without posting here? Do you all shoot PCd bullets? Or are you all just lucky dawgs?

Just wondering

Bazoo

[Ozark mike]

Maybe where they threaded the bbl to the frame. Sounds like firelapping is in yer future. (Tosses holy water at ya)

[Bazoo]

I do plan to fire lap. Guess I just don't understand why the majority of folks don't have these issues.

[DougGuy]

I haven't cleaned a revolver bore in years. Literally. As long as the throats are larger than the groove, and it doesn't matter how much larger, just larger, and you size to fit the throats or you obturate to the throats with pressure, leading is greatly reduced. The other thing that further reduces leading is to have the right alloy and lube. For me, 50/50+2% and soft lube is THE bomb in all of my revolvers. Soft enough to scratch with a thumbnail, soft lube, even SPG works great for this, and I never have to clean a bore. If I do, the patch comes out dark gray or black with lube and powder residue, the occasional fleck of lead, that's it. I don't clean a barrel when it's like this, it is what they call a "seasoned" bore or a "black" bore, in that the residue serves as a lube to the front bearing surfaces of the boolit fired afterwards.

Leading in the first inch of the barrel generally means powder gas is escaping along the sides of the boolit, melting lead as it escapes, only to deposit it on the first area of cooled metal it comes in contact with which is the barrel.

If you think you have a choke that is scraping the sides of the boolits as they go through it, maybe the alloy and/or the lube is too hard. I got horrible leading with the commercial magma cast metal and the hard crayon lube.

[Bazoo]

I've tried a soft alloy in my GP100 with 50/50 lube and it still leads. The forcing cone appears smooth and a slug driven through the bore drops through my throats, a .357 sized bullet pushes through. That's what I don't understand, all of what you describe I've tried. Among other variations but I still get leading.

With my SBH it's the same thing, regardless of what I try I get leading.

Kinda wonder if I'm just unlucky.

[elmacgyver0]

We're all just Lucky Dawgs.

[Ozark mike]

Except me im a cool cat

[DougGuy]

I've tried a soft alloy in my GP100 with 50/50 lube and it still leads. The forcing cone appears smooth and a slug driven through the bore drops through my throats, a .357 sized bullet pushes through. That's what I don't understand, all of what you describe I've tried. Among other variations but I still get leading.

With my SBH it's the same thing, regardless of what I try I get leading.

Kinda wonder if I'm just unlucky.

Will a .358" push through?

[44MAG#1]

Depends on what you call leading. Some call just a little lead wash leading some wont call it leading if it looks like a smoothbore.

[Joe K]

Check your crimp. I have used too much of a crimp and had the brass scrape lead. I only use a heavier crimp when using a slower burning powder such as H110. Otherwise just enough to remove the bell from expansion. Hope this helps.

[kungfustyle]

I had to get a chamber reamer from this site for my Smith 357. One or more of your cylinders might be too small/large. Pull the cylinder and slug each chamber if you find that one is to small you can rent reamers for it. It is easy to do if you take your time.

[GhostHawk]

Bullet fit is KING!

There are a whole slew of variables that "can" come into play, but you have to get that first one right, first.

And just because a barrel is "supposed" to want a .356 bullet does not mean what it really wants is .359 with the right lube and load behind it.

[Froogal]

I own an SP101 that has those issues. The lead deposit seems to be worse on the left side of the forcing cone and into the barrel just a bit. Pretty sure it is a timing issue. I have heard from at least one other SP101 owner with the same problem. No problem when shooting jacketed bullets.

[Drm50]

I shoot exceptionally soft alloy WCs in about 2 dozen S&Ws at Target velocity and never have had leading. The only leading I had was with Speer Lead 45 bullets in a S&W m25 that had shot hundreds of cast WCs with no problems. I have had a few older revolvers with rough bores that I had leading issues.

[onelight]

I do plan to fire lap. Guess I just don't understand why the majority of folks don't have these issues.
Most of us have or have had leading problems so we come here and learn ways of stopping or minimizing the problem . DougGuy can help you get your guns ready to accept cast . But there are many variables involved to find loads that work . The higher the velocity the more things matter it's a lot easier to get a load to shoot clean at 700 FPS than at 1500 FPS so we have gas checks , Hi-Tek , powder coating , different lubes and alloys even powder selection.
Not to mention the barrel and issues it might have like thread choke or a rough bore or forcing cone.
It's not to hard to find loads under a 1000 FPS that work but the faster you shoot the more picky you have to get with all the other details.

[BigAlofPa.]

My SW 25-5 in 45 colt. Was leading with BHN 18 boolits. I changed to BHN 12. No more leading. The 18's were not expanding to seal the bore. But yet the 18's work fine in my 45 acps.

[jaguarxk120]

What kind of bullet are you using, style, shape and grease grouves ????

Are you getting a lube star on the muzzle??

[Ozark mike]

ammo with higher pressures will get greater gas cutting even if there is a small seal problem

[Larry Gibson]

"Do you have revolvers that lead."

No, I don't. I sometimes shoot loads that lead.

Most often the problem is lube related and sometimes alloy related if a correct powder is used. The wrong powder can cause leading. I'm constantly amazed at the gyrations used "fixing" a pistol or revolver to remedy a leading problem when it's simply the wrong lube, alloy or powder that is used.

[Bazoo]

I appreciate the advice from everyone, I will attempt to answer the questions.

Doug, I cannot push a .358 sized bullet through the cylinder throats.

In th GP100, using 38 special brass, I've tried only unique powder, I've tried both the Lee 358-140-SWC and the RCBS 38-150-SWC both with ww+sn and a mystery alloy (that's soft enough to nick with a fingernail). I've tried .358 and .357 sized bullets, BAC and. 50/50 lube. I've mostly run 5 grains of unique for a full power 38 special, but I've also used less for lighter loads. I've run W296 in 357 magnum cases but only a nominal quantity. None of this has stopped the leading.

The leading isn't horrible, but it starts at the forcing cone, and works in the rifling.

The forcing cone is fairly smooth. No ridges that you can nick with an object like a punch. When I slug the barrel, I feel it get lose after the muzzle, then, tight at the threads, not horribly tight, but still tighter.

For the SBH, I've tried various power loads all with WW alloy, mostly 10 or so grains of unique. That should be right in the optimum range for unique. Long story short, I feel a constriction at the treads on this gun too and regardless of what I've tried I get leading. Worse than the GP 100.

Both produce a lube star

By leading I mean a buildup that plates itself to the bore and won't come out with a bronze brush and solvent. I've been using the choreboy method to good effect.

My goals with both guns are to run traditionally lubed, plain based bullets made mostly of WW alloy, from light specials to full house magnums without any appreciable buildup of lead.

[Dusty Bannister]

Black greasy lube star or bright silver star? My book suggests you are max or above with your 5 grains of Unique and 150 gr SWC. 10 grains of Unique with the 150 Gr seems a bit on the warm side with the 357 load as well.

Did you start low and work up knowing that at the low end things did not lead the barrel? The higher the pressures, the worse the condition. Might start your 38 special loads with Bullseye and of course brush the barrel with a patch and a little of your bullet lube so the first shot is down a lightly lubricated barrel.

[Bazoo]

Dusty, the ten grains unique is out of the SBH 44 magnum.

My manual lists at least 5 grains unique as the top but not over max for 38 special with the various Lyman bullets including the 358447 and the 358429. I had found some data Larry Gibson posted with my RCBS bullet and 5 grains unique was under max according to his data. I did work up from like 3 grains, though I don't recall now. A full power 38 special shouldn't lead though, it's not like I'm pushing the limit.

I have run lighter loads, but now I can't remember the details of the leading. I keep a record of what I've tried but didn't write that down as it was bullets I made for a different gun, but if I recall it was 4.0 grains of 231 and the lee 358-140-SWC of ww alloy and BAC lube sized .358. Those were for the wife's 686 and cloverleaf at 15 yards.

I ran out of 231 shortly after getting the GP100.

Yes it's a grease star on both guns and not a lead star.

[Norske]

I've found that foaming bore cleaner will remove moderate amounts of lead. If that isn't enough, I have Lewis lead remover tools for 44/45 and 357 bores. They are seldom needed, but when they are, nothing else works as well.

[Petrol & Powder]

Copper fouling can be removed with a solvent that contains ammonia, I've never found a commercial solvent that will attack lead.
Lead fouling is removed by mechanical means. Kroil helps to remove lead but it doesn't dissolve lead, it loosens it.

Soaking the bore with Kroil, waiting a few minutes and passing a jag with a tight fitting patch is often all that is needed to remove minor lead fouling. The old stand-by of a bronze brush with some copper Chore Boy wrapped around it is a very effective tool.
Nothing beats the Lewis Lead Remover.

As has been stated in prior posts, leading can be avoided by: proper bullet fit, the correct lube, appropriately sized throats and other means.

With standard pressure loads I have found NRA 50/50 is the winner in terms of bullet lube.

[Bazoo]

Well, I have a bullet that is just smaller than my throats, but larger than bore, using 50/50 lube. Sounds like I have a constriction at the threads. I can feel one when slugging the bore of both my problem guns. So, I'm going to fire lap them.

[Plate plinker]

Bullet fit is KING!

There are a whole slew of variables that "can" come into play, but you have to get that first one right, first.

And just because a barrel is "supposed" to want a .356 bullet does not mean what it really wants is .359 with the right lube and load behind it.

THIS^^^^^^ and my accuracy came right in with the lack of lead deposits. Miraculous!

[Jtarm]

Hey Doug,

What is 50/50 alloy?

[DougGuy]

Hey Doug,

What is 50/50 alloy?

50% Clip On Wheel Weight commonly known as COWW, and 50% pure lead. Often 1% or 2% tin is added to help the mould fill out. This is a malleable alloy that is soft enough to scratch with a thumbnail, just tough enough to stay together well, arguably the best alloy for a hunting boolit, and it takes to Ruger rifling like a duck to water.

[jaguarxk120]

Many gun smith's have replaced firelapped barrels and go very happy
to the bank.
Nice thing is you have Ruger's and Ruger will gladly replace a firelapped barrel
for a price.

[megasupermagnum]

Maybe this will help. This is my GP100 in 357 magnum after about 200 rounds without cleaning. It looks like this after 6 shots, and will stay this way forever for all I know. The pictures accent things in a way that I don't see with my eye, so it's not a perfect representation. The things to note is that the bottom of the grooves are mostly clean, just lube and powder residue. The tops of the lands have this gray ashy looking fouling on them. It's hard to tell, but it seems this ashy fouling is fairly even through the barrel. If I take a dry patch, only a couple passes will wipe this fouling. This is from my wheel weight bullets. My 20:1 bullets do not do this. I've heard this type of fouling referred to as "antimony wash". I don't know what exactly it is, and I do not care. Every single one of my magnum revolvers do this. 45 ACP seems to be near spotless, but my loads in that are likely under 15,000 psi.

https://i.ibb.co/YWGXntX/0817200853a.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/C1f8sMk/0817200858.jpg

[Bazoo]

I appreciate the replies.

MSM, thanks for the pictures. I'm not confusing fouling for leading. I get that gray wash in my 30-30 but it doesn't build or obscure the rifling.

I'm getting lead buildup in the forcing cone and beginning of the rifling. It will begin to obscure the rifling if I shoot a few boxes without cleaning. It takes either a choreboy session or scraping to remove it. I picked at it with the sharp edge of my brass punch and chunks of lead fell out.

Both the GP100 and the SBH act this way with the SBH being worse. I had way worse leading with the SBH and I returned the gun to Ruger and they replaced my barrel and my cylinder.

[Bazoo]

Many gun smith's have replaced firelapped barrels and go very happy
to the bank.
Nice thing is you have Ruger's and Ruger will gladly replace a firelapped barrel
for a price.

From what I've read, many barrels have been cured of leading by fire lapping.

[megasupermagnum]

I wish I could help more. I'm shooting bullets lubed with both Carnauba Red and TAC 1. Most of my bullets are wheel weights, and have since switched to a similarly hardness range scrap. I will say that when I'm shooting 20:1 alloy at full power 35,000 PSI+ I do get leading, but it's not much. I'm not doing anything special, I size my bullets to slip fit in the throats. My method is simple, I measure with a pin gauge, and size bullets to that. For example, this pictured GP100 a .358" pin gauge slips right in, but a .359" is way too tight. So I size bullets to .358", they will slide through the throats with only the slightest resistance. I've done nothing to the gun except measure it. I did measure bore. I forget the number, but I found the pin gauge that slips into the muzzle, and in my case it will slip right through the entire barrel. This indicates that there is no constriction at all. If that gauge stops anywhere, that is a constriction. I would then take a gauge .001" and repeat until one falls through. If I did have a constriction, fire lapping would be a good choice. What else do you have to loose? I've heard the nay sayers talk about ruining barrels, but then there are 1,000 happy people behind them that used fire lapping to good success. Don't waste your time with jacketed bullets. I had a S&W with a constriction, and 200-300 jacketed bullets did precisely nothing at all. Copper isn't abrasive.

I seem to remember you in the past had made sure your bullets are not being sized down from the brass. I also remember you had measured your groove diameter, and it was smaller than the throats I presume? The next step would be to measure for a thread constriction. Then fire lapping would be a good option. It sounds like it may not be a bad idea regardless if you have lead in the forcing cone. I've never had lead in my forcing cone of any revolver I've shot.

[P Flados]

Firelapping might help get rid of the constriction, but you seem to have leading before the barrel opens up past the constriction.

To me, the location of the leading would tend to indicate gas cutting before the bullet gets into the barrel.

I had leading problems with several revolvers. My Dan Wesson 357 Max would lead with any load above 38 Sp until I went with PC. Now it does not lead at all.

My Ruger SP-101 327 would lead even with light loads until I went with boolits 0.001" over throat diameter.

Some things to try:


Make sure that 100% of your bullets are being sized full circle and full length. I have some molds with less than perfect alignment and some of the bullets are "undersized" just to one side of the parting line.
Go with a bullet that is just bigger than your throats. If you can push through without squeezing the bullet down, you are probably too small.
Use magnum cases and seat your bullets out far enough to absolutely minimize any "jump" before the the bullet engages the throat.

[Bazoo]

I have measured my bullets and they are not sized by the brass. A slug from the bore drops through my throats, but being 5 fluted I can't measure it accurately. Since I feel a restriction when slugging, I know I have a restriction even though I don't have pin gages.

That said, I can't measure much accurately as I don't have a micrometer. If I was going to buy some individual pin gages for my bore, what range would be close?

[Bazoo]

P Flados, Thanks for your suggestions. I'll mull them over. I have sized .358 which will not push through my throats.

[DougGuy]

I was asking about a .358" I thought it wouldn't go through either. Almost 100% of the 35 caliber cylinders that come here leave at .3585" and the shooters size to .358" which is only .001" over groove diameter so there is no excessive swaging down to fit in the bore, just enough to initiate a good seal.

Pin gages will only measure the bore, which is land to land measurement, it won't give you the groove to groove diameter, which is what is needed (if you must assign a mathematical value to it).

I would suggest having the throats honed to .3585" as a first move. At best right now, throats aren't giving you enough lead to swage into the rifling to make a good seal.

Plus, as an added benefit, your firelapping will be MUCH more effective with .358" boolits than .357"

[cupajoe]

If it were me, I would use 357 mag brass, seat my cast bullet sized .358 on top of 2400 powder and enjoy shooting the GP100 with the probable side benefit of no leading and great accuracy. But thats just me, I'm simple minded.

[onelight]

I have fire lapped one stainless Ruger 45 colt I followed the directions from LBT , my 45 had pretty bad thread choke I may have stopped lapping a little early . I did 60 rounds of lapping bullets it is much improved and much easier to clean with the glass smooth bore . I have a 44 I am going to do next I don't doubt you can mess one up but I am very happy with the results on mine.

[Good Cheer]

1970's (before knowing about fire lapping), I cured the constriction in my Security Six with lots of time before the TV, layers of twine wrapped around a dowel rod and liberal applications of J-B paste. It worked great, producing a very accurate revolver. And no, I wouldn't recommend the technique to anyone because screwing it up is easy.

Which reminds me, I have a .58 barrel to finish lapping.

[murf205]

I have measured my bullets and they are not sized by the brass. A slug from the bore drops through my throats, but being 5 fluted I can't measure it accurately. Since I feel a restriction when slugging, I know I have a restriction even though I don't have pin gages.

That said, I can't measure much accurately as I don't have a micrometer. If I was going to buy some individual pin gages for my bore, what range would be close?

Bazoo, you can order individual pin gages from Meyer Gage company. Their class Z pins have .0001" tolerance and sell for $3.53 each (as per my 2019 catalogue). I bought .354 through .361 for my 35 cal guns. Shipping was reasonable and you should get the "minus" pins, which means that if a hole is .358 a .358 will fit into it. I could'nt be without mine, they have helped me immeasurably (veiled pun)! I have them for 44's and 45's. They tell quite a story. +1 for using 357 cases and +1 for 2400. I have seen revolvers lead with faster powders and not at all with 2400. The reason; well that's another topic we will thrash later but it has been my experience. Doug Guy has the cure I am betting. You sure wont hurt a thing with the true .358 cylinders. Good luck my friend-stay safe. Murf205

[Norske]

Try having the forcing cones reamed to an eleven degree angle. It helped my SBH and S&W 28 in terms of accuracy with cast boolits. It's a quick job and can even be done by hand.

[fenderman57]

My S&W 69 showed the same type of leading as the OP's. Even after reaming the chamber throats to .432, re cutting the forcing cone to 11 degrees, sizing the bullets to .431. My solution that worked was switching from the 429421 to an Arsenal 250 gr.GC. An added plus was they drop from a speedloader slicker'n snot. Problem solved.
What I'm trying to say is, switch to a gas check and avoid pulling your hair out.

[megasupermagnum]

My S&W 69 showed the same type of leading as the OP's. Even after reaming the chamber throats to .432, re cutting the forcing cone to 11 degrees, sizing the bullets to .431. My solution that worked was switching from the 429421 to an Arsenal 250 gr.GC. An added plus was they drop from a speedloader slicker'n snot. Problem solved.
What I'm trying to say is, switch to a gas check and avoid pulling your hair out.

If a gas check helped that much, you had other problems going on.

[rintinglen]

@ Fendermab57, If your M-69 was like mine, I had the same issue. Despite the excellent work by DougGuy in correcting the undersized cylinder throats, it continued to lead badly. Fire lapping and hand lapping made only a minor improvement. Jacketed bullets and gas checked were all that would work with out lining the bore. None of my other 7 44's have this problem. It currently sits on consignment in my LGS. No use trying to teach a pig to sing.

[megasupermagnum]

My S&W model 57-6 also leaded badly. In that one's case it wasn't a constriction, it was a widening. The first 1" of barrel would be spotless, then it would be a sewer pipe, as though there was a constriction. It was a defect in their crappy ECM rifling method, not every gun is effected, but mine certainly was. It was very easy to tell, and with a tight cleaning patch there was an area that had next to no resistance where the barrel widened significantly. A bulge might be a better term, although it was only a bulge on the inside, not on the outside of the barrel. Unfortunately no amount of fire lapping will fix it, the only fix is a replacement barrel, and S&W will fight you tooth an nail not to. If a gas check bullet worked in yours, it's probably not too bad. Mine wouldn't even shoot jacketed bullets, might as well have been a smooth bore it was so bad.

[fenderman57]

The worst leading in mine was with milder loads, bump the speed up to 1250 and there was only some leading halfway up the barrel. But I wanted milder loads for this one for every day carry on the farm. I have a Redhawk for the heavy stuff. I use the same alloy and lube in 10 other cast rifles and sidearms with no problems, so I'm not changing either one. Now the 69 will shoot whatever velocity I want and the bore after 40 rounds looks like a mirror. If a problem can be solved by simply changing a mold, why not do it.

[Dan Cash]

I do plan to fire lap. Guess I just don't understand why the majority of folks don't have these issues.

We sold the revolvers that lead to you or other folks with leading problems.

[megasupermagnum]

We sold the revolvers that lead to you or other folks with leading problems.

As sad as it is, most don't sell guns that shoot great. The one bad revolver I fought S&W over, I ended up returning to Davidsons. Davidsons/Gallery of Guns is absolute top notch. My second one was a dud too, and when I exchanged for the third one, I never even took it out of the box. I sold it to someone brand new, I never even laid a finger on it I was so disgusted. I hope that one was a good one, I don't like to sell people duds.

[Norske]

When S&W quit pinning their barrels, a constriction where the barrel passed through the frame became fairly common. And S&W won't admit their cost saving could cause problems.

[dogdoc]

On my newer revolvers I like to fire 3 or 4 hundred jacketed bullets as sort of a break in . It may help. I have also Fire lapped one with good results.(old security six with machining marks in barrel. Some marks still there but no leading and a tack driver.)

[murf205]

@ Fendermab57, If your M-69 was like mine, I had the same issue. Despite the excellent work by DougGuy in correcting the undersized cylinder throats, it continued to lead badly. Fire lapping and hand lapping made only a minor improvement. Jacketed bullets and gas checked were all that would work with out lining the bore. None of my other 7 44's have this problem. It currently sits on consignment in my LGS. No use trying to teach a pig to sing.

I can't help but wonder why new barrels lead and the older ones don't have as much of a problem. The EDM machined S&W barrels that I have and have seen, look like a mirror to my eye. I dont have a borescope and maybe some here who do have one can see the difference. Both of my newer S&W guns, a 24 and a 629, were leading a little more than I liked but after reaming the throats to .431 and sizing the boolits accordingly, the leading stopped and of course the accuracy inproved. Maybe the fact that the factory has the practice of tight throating the new revolvers is the answer. My 629 had a couple of throats that were .4285 and I remember shooting only those cylinders for about 10 shots and they did lead worse that the .429 cylinders-not a lot worse but noticeably more.

[silhouette_shooter]

My S&W Victory was picking up lead, throat dimensions are fine. Culprit was forcing cone, which I hit with an 11 degree cutter from , 4D rentals, and also the front of the cylinder throats were excessively sharp and were damaging the bullets. Polished them and NO MORE LEAD!