Bullet runout Progressive vs Turret vs Single stage

[kungfustyle]

Hello to everyone,
I have a few questions to those that I know are more knowledgeable than I am about the finer details of reloading for rifles. The focus is not necessarily for jacketed or cast boolits but for bullet runout vs the three types of presses mentioned in the title. I've had a RCBS Rockchucker for a long time, traded it for a new Rockchucker supreme a few years ago and I'm very happy with the press. I did own a Lee Classic turret press that made fine pistol ammo but the rifle rounds that it produced were lacking compared to the RCBS. I acquired a Redding Turret press and sold the Lee. Now I was very happy with the Lee, so this isn't a Lee bash. Just wanted the Redding. Now I'm looking at speeding up the pistol rounds and 223 production and wanted to know was there any difference in runout for rifle rounds on a single stage vs turret vs progressive press and how do you over come that? i.e. due to the play in the plate or turret. Thanks for your help
Looking at a Dillon 550 or a Lee auto pro to get started.

[dannyd]

I have owned a 550, Lee turret and RCBS turret. All had more run out than the single stage. It was always about 5 thousand more.

[Conditor22]

You just can't beat the RCBS Rock CHucker for an <$1,000 press

[Dan Cash]

Dillon produces match quality ammo so I have never worried about the run out. The ammo is better than the firing platforms I feed it to to include M70 that produces sub minute groups on demand

[kungfustyle]

Dillon produces match quality ammo so I have never worried about the run out. The ammo is better than the firing platforms I feed it to to include M70 that produces sub minute groups on demand

Did you have to tweak the Dillon to get it to that level?

[dannyd]

Dillon produces match quality ammo so I have never worried about the run out. The ammo is better than the firing platforms I feed it to to include M70 that produces sub minute groups on demand


How much run out do you get on your Dillion's?

[onelight]

For some of us it does not matter what the run out is . If I am Loading for my 7-08 and I get groups under 1 moa I don't need more than that or even that good to deer hunt at the range limit that I am comfortable with . I have what I want now I am looking for deer .:bigsmyl2:
If you goal is the smallest group possible you never stop looking for ways to improve the group.

[John Boy]

Kungfu, face facts ... every press and the seating dies have to be adjusted for proper round COL including the crimp die if used separately

[dannyd]

For some of us it does not matter what the run out is . If I am Loading for my 7-08 and I get groups under 1 moa I don't need more than that or even that good to deer hunt at the range limit that I am comfortable with . I have what I want now I am looking for deer .:bigsmyl2:
If you goal is the smallest group possible you never stop looking for ways to improve the group.

There are alot of us that just Hunt Paper. :)

[Three44s]

Looks like runout

Three44s

[kungfustyle]

I'm assuming that runout and poor accuracy go hand and hand. I'm also assuming that the play in the shell plate or turret is adding to the runout/accuracy issue. Is there a way to produce good rifle ammo with a progressive press that is on par with a single stage press?

[1hole]

... wanted to know was there any difference in runout for rifle rounds on a single stage vs turret vs progressive press and how do you over come that? i.e. due to the play in the plate or turret. Thanks for your help
Looking at a Dillon 550 or a Lee auto pro to get started.

Loaded bullet runout is dependant on two things: the case necks and the dies, both sizer and seater dies.

All any press can do is push cases into and withdraw them from the dies.

IF you're chasing sub 1/4 moa groups then you will need hand dies and an arbor press - and a maybe two-three thousand dollar rig. (Many more tiny groups get fired "all day long" on a hot keyboard than on a range.)

[MT Chambers]

Best press to reduce run-out is the Forster CO-ax, it allows die to "float", finding the center. Only expensive hand dies can compete!

[jcren]

I use a lee turrent for everything, including 30-06. Noticed some run out with the sierra game king and started looking for ideas. Ran across a article (probably on here) where the author rotated his cases for the crimp (crimp, turn 1/3 crimp, turn 1/3 crimp) and figured it was worth a try. Bottom line, no discernable run out using my arrow spinning jig (don't have a propper run out gauge yet) and much smaller groups.

[dannyd]

I'm assuming that runout and poor accuracy go hand and hand. I'm also assuming that the play in the shell plate or turret is adding to the runout/accuracy issue. Is there a way to produce good rifle ammo with a progressive press that is on par with a single stage press?

For me no, but there are some great shooters that use progressive presses all the time. I just tried it and do not like it , now I have loaded over 150,000 pistol rounds on progressive presses with no problems.

[M-Tecs]

How much run out do you get on your Dillion's?

I have three 650's and two Super 1050's. I also have a bunch of single station including the Forster CO-ax. Each has it's own idiosyncrasy but with proper technique case run-out and shoulder length is about equal. I mostly load my 600 and 1,000 yard ammo on the progressive's and holding sub .002" neck runout is not a problem. Bullet tip runout under .003" is not a problem with proper chamfering and neck annealing coupled with using neck bushing dies to eliminate the expander button. If I do use an expander button the steel ones are replaced with carbide on any bottlenecked cases.

Single stage comparison
https://ultimatereloader.com/2019/04/08/fourteen-reloading-presses-compared-single-stage-shootout/

How to Load More Concentric Ammo

https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/how-to-load-more-concentric-ammo/

[1hole]

...I did own a Lee Classic turret press that made fine pistol ammo but the rifle rounds that it produced were lacking compared to the RCBS.

Wonder, what did you find that the Lee was lacking?

I have a 60+ year old, well worn and imprecise Lyman "Spar-T" six station turret, a 30 year old "RockChucker II" and two 25 year old Lee "Reloader" presses. I also have a very good concentricity gage reading in tenths of a thousanth and I know how to properly use it to best check runout.

Several years back I had questions similar to yours so I did a series of runout tests with those four presses using the same carefully weight selected, trimmed and neck turned 20 cases, all fired from the same rifle. I used the same dies, shell holders and Sierra target bullets while using an RCBS Precision Case Mic to set the shoulders and seating to the ogive as nearly the same as possible.

I found NO meaningful difference in runout between the presses.

What DOES matter is how we select and handle our cases. And "good" dies do matter - a lot - but it's not a matter of brand or cost. They're all made within the same SAAMI tolerance ranges so one brand varies as much by itself as between brands.

For whatever it means to anyone, I've found - measured - that Forster BR and Redding Competition seating dies are, on average, better than others because of their unique full length case alignment sleeves. And, howls of outraged brand fans aside, I mean they are usually better - meaning they seat straighter - than ANY other 7/8" x 14 threaded seaters, no matter what the others are called or cost. (But even they can't seat bullets very straight in non-concentric case necks!)

[kungfustyle]

Thanks for all the information. I am not looking for sub MOA from my guns, MOA is an achievable and a good goal for me. Sub moa is obtainable but no interest in going down that road right now. I reloaded some 308 on the Lee press that produce about 3" groups. Back to the RCBS and was down to moa. Working now on the Redding and I'm satisfied with the 223 that can punch a quarter sized hole at 100 yards all day. These were loaded with the dead length seating die from Lee on the Redding Turret press. The progressive press has captured my interest to increase production, but I wanted some feedback before the purchase. Thanks again all.

[onelight]

Loaded bullet runout is dependant on two things: the case necks and the dies, both sizer and seater dies.

All any press can do is push cases into and withdraw them from the dies.

IF you're chasing sub 1/4 moa groups then you will need hand dies and an arbor press - and a maybe two-three thousand dollar rig. (Many more tiny groups get fired "all day long" on a hot keyboard than on a range.)
That's a good one :bigsmyl2:

[dverna]

Hello to everyone,
I have a few questions to those that I know are more knowledgeable than I am about the finer details of reloading for rifles. The focus is not necessarily for jacketed or cast boolits but for bullet runout vs the three types of presses mentioned in the title. I've had a RCBS Rockchucker for a long time, traded it for a new Rockchucker supreme a few years ago and I'm very happy with the press. I did own a Lee Classic turret press that made fine pistol ammo but the rifle rounds that it produced were lacking compared to the RCBS. I acquired a Redding Turret press and sold the Lee. Now I was very happy with the Lee, so this isn't a Lee bash. Just wanted the Redding. Now I'm looking at speeding up the pistol rounds and 223 production and wanted to know was there any difference in runout for rifle rounds on a single stage vs turret vs progressive press and how do you over come that? i.e. due to the play in the plate or turret. Thanks for your help
Looking at a Dillon 550 or a Lee auto pro to get started.

Unless you shoot a lot of NRA High Power (or similar), turning out hundreds of rounds a week of match rifle ammunition is not needed. I would get the Dillon and see how it performs. If (and it is a big if) the loads from the Dillon are not as good as off your single stage, produce your competition rounds on the SS. For practice ammo, a difference of say 1/4 MOA is not going to matter much. You will miss more X's due to wind than precision. KISS.

Lastly, there will be enough manufacturing tolerances between "identical" presses that one Lee, Dillon, RCBS, whatever, will produce a different run out than the same press made a few minutes later. The link that M-Tecs posted would have been more interesting if say 3 "identical" presses had been evaluated as a control.

[PNW_Steve]

Interesting discussion. I have similar questions and have ordered a Redding type S bushing sizing die and a Forester Micrometer seating die in an effort to minimize run-out.

My intention is to move most of my rifle reloading back to my Rock Chucker single stage.

Do I understand correctly that the floating bushing and the precision seating die will keep my runout to a minimum?

[kokomokid]

Best press to reduce run-out is the Forster CO-ax, it allows die to "float", finding the center. Only expensive hand dies can compete!

My Forester co-ax makes low run out ammo. David Tubb had a video showing how he free floated dies on his Dillon to make low run out and it works for him.

[1006]

You can get die float by simply not tightening the lock ring. Lee does it with o-rings under the lock ring.

Interesting info:

https://www.whiddengunworks.com/floating-dillon-toolheads/

https://www.whiddengunworks.com/floating-dillon-toolheads/

[dannyd]

Interesting discussion. I have similar questions and have ordered a Redding type S bushing sizing die and a Forester Micrometer seating die in an effort to minimize run-out.

My intention is to move most of my rifle reloading back to my Rock Chucker single stage.

Do I understand correctly that the floating bushing and the precision seating die will keep my runout to a minimum?

I use the Forster for 308 and 300 magnum works great for me.

[hpdrifter]

Loaded bullet runout is dependant on two things: the case necks and the dies, both sizer and seater dies.

All any press can do is push cases into and withdraw them from the dies.

IF you're chasing sub 1/4 moa groups then you will need hand dies and an arbor press - and a maybe two-three thousand dollar rig. (Many more tiny groups get fired "all day long" on a hot keyboard than on a range.)

There is no way that I'd use an "automated" press if I were searching for sub minute of angle accuracy.
Too much slop and movement.

[1hole]

There is no way that I'd use an "automated" press if I were searching for sub minute of angle accuracy.
Too much slop and movement.

Neither would I but for reasons other than runout.

Thing is, when dies are correctly adjusted the cases will be tightly held inside and, with in reason, it hardly matters how the case starts in or withdraws.

No press can possibly make a round case enter a round die with absolute precision but a bit of slack (call it slop) in the press-shell holder-die alignment will allow round cases to precisely drive home inside the dies. That's why serious BR shooters use hand dies and arbor presses; you can't get "sloppier" than that.

[Three44s]

Hmm, I have not worked with hand dies but all I have read, I did not get the perception they were sloppy.

Three44s

[oldhenry]

1006,
Thanks for that info on John Whidden's common sense solution.

First of all: John is one of the nicest, most courteous people that I've ever met in addition to being a multi time National LR champion and a world class gun smith.

In the '90s I was a tight neck, arbor press type guy & was flabbergasted when I found out that John loaded all of his 1000 yd. match ammo on a Dillon 650.

Attached is an image of my Dillon 550 quick change in .223. This is a copy of John's idea: original version. It's a simple system. The dies are not tightened. They are held into place by a roll pin through the die lock ring &into the tool head. The dies are allow to self center.

[jetinteriorguy]

I full length size with a Redding body die, followed by a Lee Collet Neck sizing die, and seat with a Forster Ultra Micrometer Seating die. This is on brass trimmed to length and necks turned. The most runout I get is .001”, most are spot on and .0005” or less. This is on a Lyman Orange Crusher press that’s around 35 years old with a lot of use.

[1hole]

..... Lastly, there will be enough manufacturing tolerances between "identical" presses that one Lee, Dillon, RCBS, whatever, will produce a different run out than the same press made a few minutes later. The link that M-Tecs posted would have been more interesting if say 3 "identical" presses had been evaluated as a control.

Good point. In the science of statistics a sample of one is so meaningless that it proves nothing. In fact, it takes a LOT more samples than even three to become statistically valid. Consider that professional political polling of 1,000 people only has something like +/- 4% accuracy. Think of that, it's still has an 8% error range even over 1,000 samples!

For presses, IF a maker could "prove" theirs is "better" than others by even a small percentage the maker could - and would - present that advantage in their advertising. The fact no one makes such statements is clear evidence they realize they can't prove their's to truly be better than others and saying so would violate truth in advertizing laws.

I once did a study of the dimensions of about fifty conventional FL sizer and seating dies from about 10 makers, partly by making chamber casts of each sizer. What I found surprised me; there was as much variation between dies of the same maker as there was between makers! BUT, happily, none of them were outside the SAAMI tolerance specifications.

Then I tested bullet run-out of loads with the seater from each die set; perhaps the most relevant results were that in no case was the "best" sizer (in my mind) matched with the best seater!

Again, I found no detectable average difference between seater die brands EXCEPT for the consistently very good-to-excellent Forster/Bonanza BR and Redding Competition seaters.

[Note: Expensive micrometer type seater plugs don't do a thing for bullet run-out, they are ONLY a (slight) advantage when changing seating depth. And no seater can load straight in bad necks.]

That testing made me realize that no matter the web hype, the price, the pretty exteriors, or the reputation of the brand doesn't tell me a thing - if I want to learn if a new die is "better" or "worse" than another I have to test both. And, from my testing, I now have no die sets for my (few) accurate rifles that aren't mixed brands. BUT, if you can't easily do extensive comparison tests for yourself I promise that you will never go badly wrong with Forster or Redding's competitive die sets because ONLY they have seater dies with a full length body sleeve that properly aligns the whole case and bullet before seating even starts.

On the other hand, I found that even the worse of common die sets aren't bad and they can make better ammo than most users can put together.

My point is, I believe the same end quality appraisal is probably true of presses. After all, a press's single work is simply to push cases into and then draw them out of dies and that's really not very demanding work.

Inside the dies are where ammo is made, therefore the specific dies we use are obviously much more important than the press they're used in!

[1hole]

Hmm, I have not worked with hand dies but all I have read, I did not get the perception they were sloppy.

Three44s

You totally miss the point of what I've been saying and don't quite understand the difference between "slop" and precision self aligning flexibility with cases and dies. Others do get it tho.

[kungfustyle]

1hole great explanation. Thanks for your contribution. Point taken.

[M-Tecs]

Thanks for that info on John Whidden's common sense solution.

First of all: John is one of the nicest, most courteous people that I've ever met in addition to being a multi time National LR champion and a world class gun smith.

In the '90s I was a tight neck, arbor press type guy & was flabbergasted when I found out that John loaded all of his 1000 yd. match ammo on a Dillon 650.



Most people get all wrapped up about using benchrest techniques without fully understanding the advantages and disadvantages of those methods. Most benchrest shooters are using a relatively small number of highly tuned cases in the quest of shooting a zero sized groups. The primary disadvantage to their methods is it's very slow.

On the other hand the NRA Highpower, Palma and F-Class shooters need a much larger amount of ammunition and different type of accuracy requirements. This games are mostly won and lost by holding and wind reading ability. A benchrest shooter would be severely limited by a rifle/ammo combo that will only hold a 1/2" moa for 10 shot groups. If you are a hard holder and good wind reader a 1/2" moa for 10 shot groups will win you the Nationals.

A very large number of these shooter load exclusively on 550's, 650's and 1050'S.

I do know with my 650's or 1050's I can hold 3/8 MOA for 10 shot groups out to 300 yards. Past 300 yards most folks judge the ammo by holding the water line since the wind tends to open up the width of the groups.

Through the years I have collected a large number of single station presses and Dillon 550's, 650's, a RL 1000 and a pair of 1050's. The Dillon's are all capable of holding 3/8" MOA for 10 shot groups out to 300 yards. Dies and brass have a bigger influence than the type or brand of press unless the press is out of spec.

For the folks that don't know of John Whidden http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2020/08/sunday-gunday-whiddens-title-winning-308-win-palma-rifle/

[country gent]

I loaded all our high power ammo on dillion 650. this was .223, .243 , .308. The only changes I made was to use a harrels powder measure in place of the dillion, and a slightly heavier spring under the detente ball for the shell plate. I did use redding S bushing dies and seaters. loaded very good ammo that took me to High Master. (at the time my daughter wife and I were all competing). The 223 was for AR service and match rifles, the 243 was a pre 64 course / 1000 yd rifle with tight neck chamber ( this rifle needed bushing dies as standard dies would give enough neck tension on turned necks), The 308 wqs for 2 NM M1As with krieger barrels.
I found over sizing the neck and expanding with the ball caused a lot more tun out than a properly set up press. This was really evident with the tight necked 243 as neck tension was controlled by the bushings alone. And wall thickness variations were very small on the turned fittted brass. .002-.004 neck wall thickness variations wreak havoc on run out. From what I have checked that .002 wall thickness at the neck can be as much as .010 at the head. Straight line dies will size to whats needed and not over size. same with the seaters hold your finger over the bottom hole and drop a bullet in the top and watch it float on the cushion of air going down thru the stem portion. Tolerances are much tighter.

Bench rest shooters shoot some impressive groups. Their chambers are cut tight and with special neck dias. tight head space. Cases are a effort in precision. A batch of 100 or more cases are purchased and sorted by weight to a batch that are all the same. then sorted by neck wall thickness to all the same. then flash holes may be gauged to the same size. Now comes case prep primer pockets are uniformed square and the same depth, flash holes may be reamed to the same size, necks are turned to the correct size for the chamber, this usually gives a clearance of .0005-.0007 on the loaded round. Deburring and chamfering are done in a lathe type trimmer. n the end they end up with 20-25 cases and these will burn out the barrel before they go bad. When brass and chamber fit is correct sizing isnt much as spring back takes care of it. Bench rest shooters go thru a lot more but they only need those 20-25 cases. A high power shooter on the other hand may have 2000 cases in rotation, here the above sorting and prep hed never fire a shot.

[j_dude77]

One thing I have found that helps with runout if you are full length sizing. When you run the case into the sizing die, leave the case in the die with the ram full up. Now loosen the expander and run it up until you feel it hits the neck. Tighten then lower the ram. This helped tremendously with runout on 300WM. I do this with all my rifle now, since I deprime before tumbling.

[1hole]

Bench rest shooters shoot some impressive groups. Their chambers are cut tight and with special neck dias. tight head space. Cases are a effort in precision. A batch of 100 or more cases are purchased and sorted by weight to a batch that are all the same. then sorted by neck wall thickness to all the same. then flash holes may be gauged to the same size. Now comes case prep primer pockets are uniformed square and the same depth, flash holes may be reamed to the same size, necks are turned to the correct size for the chamber, this usually gives a clearance of .0005-.0007 on the loaded round. Deburring and chamfering are done in a lathe type trimmer. n the end they end up with 20-25 cases and they will burn out the barrel before they go bad.

All very true Country.

No serious BR competitor is going to join our contests about which threaded presses and dies are "best" for accuracy, nor how great electrically dumped and trickled charges are, or which digital powder scale will better differentiate a single kernel of powder, or which mass produced "competition" bullets are best, etc., because little or none of what we agonise over matters to him.

A BR guy coming here has to laff at our serious but doomed efforts trying to use his methods to get bug hole groups from an off the shelf commercial rifle chambered to SAAMI specs and using SAAMI spec dies screwed into our hopefully "precise" presses and loading common bullets into common cases. But, if you want to kick a hornet's nest, just try telling some hopeful guy he's wasting a lot of time worrying about meaningless (to him) trivia!

I don't want to pee on anyone's parade so when I read of a good fellow trying to duplicate BR reloading techniques for his deer rifle because it's what the experts do I usually just smile and keep moving.

[farmbif]

I'm with 1hole, I'm no precision shooter but I have no problem hitting 5 round groups within 1 inch at 100 yards using ammo I make for my old savage 111 243 win, 100 gr game kings with 4831 on a Hornady progressive with Redding dies.

[Blindshooter]

I loaded all our high power ammo on dillion 650. this was .223, .243 , .308. The only changes I made was to use a harrels powder measure in place of the dillion, and a slightly heavier spring under the detente ball for the shell plate. I did use redding S bushing dies and seaters. loaded very good ammo that took me to High Master. (at the time my daughter wife and I were all competing). The 223 was for AR service and match rifles, the 243 was a pre 64 course / 1000 yd rifle with tight neck chamber ( this rifle needed bushing dies as standard dies would give enough neck tension on turned necks), The 308 wqs for 2 NM M1As with krieger barrels.
I found over sizing the neck and expanding with the ball caused a lot more tun out than a properly set up press. This was really evident with the tight necked 243 as neck tension was controlled by the bushings alone. And wall thickness variations were very small on the turned fittted brass. .002-.004 neck wall thickness variations wreak havoc on run out. From what I have checked that .002 wall thickness at the neck can be as much as .010 at the head. Straight line dies will size to whats needed and not over size. same with the seaters hold your finger over the bottom hole and drop a bullet in the top and watch it float on the cushion of air going down thru the stem portion. Tolerances are much tighter.

Bench rest shooters shoot some impressive groups. Their chambers are cut tight and with special neck dias. tight head space. Cases are a effort in precision. A batch of 100 or more cases are purchased and sorted by weight to a batch that are all the same. then sorted by neck wall thickness to all the same. then flash holes may be gauged to the same size. Now comes case prep primer pockets are uniformed square and the same depth, flash holes may be reamed to the same size, necks are turned to the correct size for the chamber, this usually gives a clearance of .0005-.0007 on the loaded round. Deburring and chamfering are done in a lathe type trimmer. n the end they end up with 20-25 cases and these will burn out the barrel before they go bad. When brass and chamber fit is correct sizing isnt much as spring back takes care of it. Bench rest shooters go thru a lot more but they only need those 20-25 cases. A high power shooter on the other hand may have 2000 cases in rotation, here the above sorting and prep hed never fire a shot.

You described my experience almost exactly loading for HP. I used two Hornady Projectors, mostly prepped with one and loading on the other. Redding comp die sets and a KenLight annealing machine. I too made HM across the course and LR with ammo made on progressive machines. I always thought a bunch of really good ammo + time on the range would advance scores quicker than time spent dragging that last 1% of accuracy out of a gun and ammo. Use that time and money on the range learning how to read wind and all the other things that you have to master to get good scores.
After I legged out (M1A) I used up ammo that I had culled or just thought won't "perfect" in later leg matches. Funny, my scores were just as good or better with the culled ammo.
No bench rest experience at all but it looks like it could be fun and just as challenging in a different way.

[Lloyd Smale]

Did you have to tweak the Dillon to get it to that level?

yup ive loaded ar15 and ar10 ammo on a 550 that shot 3/4s of an inch at a 100 yards and thats just not one freek 3 shot group. When i say my gun shoots X at a 100 yards its a average of 3 5 shot groups. Unless your shooting bench rest competition or 1000 yard matches the differnce is trivial at best. Ive seen bigger differnce in runout between brands of dies then i have comparing a dillon to my rock chucker. Compare runout in your 10 dollar lee seating die to a redding bench rest seating die. Matter of fact bonanza coax press brag about the die floating around a bit saying it helps the bullet center it self. That one allways blew my mind. Lots of this comes from how you use it. Sure i will get some run out slamming out ball ammo as fast as i can feed the press. but slow down and smell the roses and make sure every bullet is started into the case straight and you can make some fine ammo on a progressive.

[1hole]

Compare runout in your 10 dollar lee seating die to a redding bench rest seating die.

Are you serious? You know that no matter what they're called no real BR shooter is going to use anyone's off-the-shelf threaded seater dies in competition!

Compare the end results of a few common brand seaters with a precision run-out gage and you'll find Lee's sneered at "$10" seaters are as good, on average, as anyone else's.


Matter of fact bonanza coax press brag about the die floating around a bit saying it helps the bullet center it self. That one allways blew my mind.

That should, because no one who knows what he's talking about has ever said that! What is said is that a bit of float in a threaded press-to-die alignment will allow the dies to self center over the loosely held cases and that's obviously true. BR shooters use (custom made) unthreaded presses and dies specifically because they cannot possibly exert any die-to-case misalignment. But no one would say a loosely fitted seater is going to "help bullets center" themselves! Well, almost no one .... ??

(And the Co-Ax press (and dies) haven't been "Bonanza" for several decades Lloyd, they are Forster now.)

[M-Tecs]

Lots of assumptions being made as to what real benchrest shooters use. BR is not my game and I don't compete in that discipline, however, I have barreled several 600 and 1,000 bench guns. At least on the long range side Redding neck bushing dies are common. While I don't know him well I have a dinner with Richard Schatz several times. Of course the topic of conversation was equipment and techniques.

This record and article below was from 2004 and Richard has bested it many times but it details his loading equipment. As of three or four years ago he was still using the same reloading techniques with the addition of neck annealing and possibly neck turning. He also switched from the 6mm Dasher to the 6mm Bra.

https://www.6mmbr.com/schatz1000.html

Reloading Procedure & Equipment
Dies are Redding Competition Seater and Competition bushing neck-sizer with sleeves reamed by Dan Dowling with the 6 Dasher chamber reamer. Rich uses a .267" Redding bushing, giving about .002" of neck tension, and sizes most of the neck, leaving about .060" un-sized below the bearing surface of the bullet. He has a custom full-length die, but he only full-length sizes a couple times a year. Normally he merely neck-sizes the cases with a very tiny bit of home-made lube on the necks. Rich doesn't turn necks, but he deburs the flash-holes and chamfers the case mouth inside and out. Primer pockets are cleaned with a brush but not uniformed with a tool. When the barrel was new, bullets were seated close to the lands, but when he set the record, he estimates the ogives were about .015-.020" from the lands. Press is a Harrell's Benchrest Turret model, set tight, but still able to turn.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/0-40x-at-600-yards-schatz-shoots-small-amazingly-small/
267100

[onelight]

Wow !
What a group .

[jmorris]

I have lots of presses from arbor to automated progressives, the components and dies matter more than what press I use them in.

If you think things have to be done slowly by hand to have little runout for get some decent factory ammunition like Federal Gold Match and test it for run out, while you are, remember it is made by the thousands per hour.

Google David Tubb and John Whidden, for their accomplishments in rifle shooting using progressives presses for loading.

[jmorris]

I'm assuming that runout and poor accuracy go hand and hand. I'm also assuming that the play in the shell plate or turret is adding to the runout/accuracy issue.


The answer to the first depends. Doesn’t really matter what it is as a loaded round as far as run out is concerned, what is it after it is chambered and or fired, those are not always the same thing. One reason why seating out to the lands, has its proponents.

Also both of the above actually have modified tool heads so they “float” not unlike a die in a Forster co-ax.

[1hole]

Press is a Harrell's Benchrest Turret model, set tight, but still able to turn.[/I]

Any turret that can rotate must have some "slop" or it couldn't turn at all. That agrees with my assertion that wrenched down dies are not mandatory for precise case to die alignment.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/0-40x-at-600-yards-schatz-shoots-small-amazingly-small/
267100[/QUOTE]

That's quite a nice group, I wonder how often he can duplicate it.

> As an aside from all this reloading minutia, any winning BR competitor can confirm that the shooter's ability to dope the wind becomes progressively more important as the ranges increase and the winning groups get smaller. Since wind is invisible, even with range flags, most screamer groups must involve a good bit of luck.

[M-Tecs]

That's quite a nice group, I wonder how often he can duplicate it.

This is from 2012 but he since has many more records.

https://bismarcktribune.com/outdoors/bismarck-man-earns-rd-national-shooting-title/article_121e0dcc-0da5-11e2-90d0-001a4bcf887a.html

A Bismarck man has claimed his third national long-range shooting title.

Richard Schatz won the International Benchrest Association 600-yard championship last weekend in St. Louis.

Schatz, a retired diesel mechanic who began competitive shooting in 2011, topped a field of more than 80 shooters.

Schatz said he shoots a 6mm dasher round he designed with a custom-made rifle assembled by a friend who is a retired gunsmith.

He won two other national titles with the rifle in 600- and 1,000-yard classes and has set 10 world scoring records during competitive shooting.

Scores are calculated based on a five-shot grouping.

Schatz has been inducted into both the International Benchrest Shooters and the National Benchrest Shooters halls of fame.

Partial list of his accomplishments here http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?s=+Richard+Schatz&submit=Search

[M-Tecs]

> As an aside from all this reloading minutia, any winning BR competitor can confirm that the shooter's ability to dope the wind becomes progressively more important as the ranges increase and the winning groups get smaller. Since wind is invisible, even with range flags, most screamer groups must involve a good bit of luck.

Wind is far from invisible. Reading mirage (particularly at longer ranges) is a better indicator than flags.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/12/how-to-read-mirage-expert-advice-with-diagrams/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2017/03/using-mirage-to-read-the-wind-spotting-scope-technique/

[jmorris]

The OP already stated on the first page he wasn’t even looking for sub MOA accuracy.


I am not looking for sub MOA from my guns, MOA is an achievable and a good goal for me. Sub moa is obtainable but no interest in going down that road right now. I reloaded some 308 on the Lee press that produce about 3" groups. Back to the RCBS and was down to moa. Working now on the Redding and I'm satisfied with the 223 that can punch a quarter sized hole at 100 yards all day.


Then again 1 MOA at 100 yards is 1.047” and a quarter is .955” in diameter. Guess that depends if he is talking about center to center or outside to outside...

Anyway, 100 yards is also an entirely different game than 1000 yard or even 600 yard benchrest. It’s not uncommon for aggregate groups to be in the .1’s-.3’s throughout the entire field in 100 yard benchrest matches and as the term aggregate would suggest, that’s the combination of a number of different groups.

That’s with thrown charges and often tiny aluminum presses that wouldn’t be suitable for more demanding strength.

Rabbit hole for what it seems the OP is looking for.

[1hole]

Richard Schatz won the International Benchrest Association 600-yard championship last weekend in St. Louis. ... Schatz said he shoots a 6mm dasher round he designed with a custom-made rifle assembled by a friend who is a retired gunsmith.

He won two other national titles with the rifle in 600- and 1,000-yard classes and has set 10 world scoring records during competitive shooting.

Schatz has been inducted into both the International Benchrest Shooters and the National Benchrest Shooters halls of fame.[/I]


Mr. Schatz is quite a shooter and obviously gets great performance from his tools and load development. ???

[1hole]

Wind is far from invisible. Reading mirage (particularly at longer ranges) is a better indicator that flags.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/12/how-to-read-mirage-expert-advice-with-diagrams/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2017/03/using-mirage-to-read-the-wind-spotting-scope-technique/

Interesting write ups but you seem to put more faith in "wind spotting" than it deserves. Fact is, the waves of heat generated mirage is sometimes visible but more often is not. Even when it is, mirage is not "wind", nor is what we see always indicative of the contrary hot spots at different points over the flat fields where they can best be seen. That means there is no way for a shooter to accurately distinguish the optical effects of mirage between varying points along the bullet's trajectory ... and that matters. Those are just facts, not web guru "I once saw it in an interesting gun magazine" guesses.

Truth is, wind is just moving air so it's obviously invisible. But, mirage is bent light making things appear to be in different places from where they really are; meaning mirage is not wind drift! Sure, with practice, reading those rising heat waves can be helpful when shooting over flat ground. But no matter how visible mirage may be on any given day and time and specific place, mirage itself is nothing but light rickoceting its way through changeable densities of heated air.

Therefore, while mirage reading (through high power scopes) can indeed be helpful to skilled shooters, the "wind" itself cannot be seen nor accurately determined by anyone watching swirling heat waves dancing around between themselves and distant targets.

Those are mirage facts, not web guru "I once read this great stuff in a gun magazine so now I know all about it" day dreams.

[1hole]

That’s with thrown charges and often tiny aluminum presses ...

If you mean the little RCBS Partner press, I have a young friend (mid 50s) who uses a .338 Win Mag for his southern white tail deer rifle. Says he wants to just to be sure that he has enough power to take the same deep woods deer I easily take with a .243 Win and .35 Rem. He reloads that hard kicking thing on a tiny little Partner!

[M-Tecs]

Interesting write ups but you seem to put more faith in "wind spotting" than it deserves. Fact is, the waves of heat generated mirage is sometimes visible but more often is not. Even when it is, mirage is not "wind", nor is what we see always indicative of the contrary hot spots at different points over the flat fields where they can best be seen. That means there is no way for a shooter to accurately distinguish the optical effects of mirage between varying points along the bullet's trajectory ... and that matters. Those are just facts, not web guru "I once saw it in an interesting gun magazine" guesses.

Truth is, wind is just moving air so it's obviously invisible. But, mirage is bent light making things appear to be in different places from where they really are; meaning mirage is not wind drift! Sure, with practice, reading those rising heat waves can be helpful when shooting over flat ground. But no matter how visible mirage may be on any given day and time and specific place, mirage itself is nothing but light rickoceting its way through changeable densities of heated air.

Therefore, while mirage reading (through high power scopes) can indeed be helpful to skilled shooters, the "wind" itself cannot be seen nor accurately determined by anyone watching swirling heat waves dancing around between themselves and distant targets.

Those are mirage facts, not web guru "I once read this great stuff in a gun magazine so now I know all about it" day dreams.

You obviously have zero competitive long range experience. I have 30 plus years and I do recommend you stop digging a hole.

With proper optics mirage is always visible. That does not mean mirage is always usable as a wind indicate. Straight boils can be from a straight on head or tail wind or no wind. Above 13 mph mirage turns to a flat run and the only real usable information is that the wind is greater than 13 mph. Between between 0 and 13 mph using mirage is the gold stand for read winding for long competition and military snipers. The short range bench shooter tend to use a lot of flags or spinners but that is not that is not my area of expertise so unlike some I will refrain from commenting.

https://gundigest.com/more/how-to/firearm-training/how-to-read-the-mirage-to-control-for-wind

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2016/8/17/how-to-read-mirage-to-estimate-wind-speed/

http://www.mssblog.com/2017/03/01/shooting-skills-shooting-the-breeze-3/

https://www.targettamers.com/guides/reading-mirage-spotting-scope/

[1hole]

You obviously have zero competitive long range experience. I have 30 plus years and I do recommend you stop digging a hole.

Ah! My apologies, but you should have told us you're a long range expert from the git-go. :)

[M-Tecs]

If you mean the little RCBS Partner press


That's why serious BR shooters use hand dies and arbor presses; you can't get "sloppier" than that.

You ever been to an actual BR match?????? Lots of BR shooters load at the range with almost everything under the sun. Some use an arbor press and some use a variety of small little presses like the Harrell's or Hood. Some use threaded dies exclusively and some use a combination of threaded press and arbor press. Some even use Lyman 310 type tong tools and I am sure something like the Partner does see some use. The point is lots of serious shooters use something other that hand dies with an arbor.

http://harrellsprec.com/index.php/products/compact-reloading-press

http://www.benchrest.com/hoodpress/hood_press.html

https://buchananprecisionmachine.com/products/buchanan-precision-machine-lnl-hand-reloading-press-with-case

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/05/loading-at-the-range-why-it-works-for-the-benchrest-game/

[M-Tecs]

Ah! My apologies, but you should have told us you're a long range expert from the git-go. :)

Far from an expert but I do know enough (unlike some) to have an intelligent conversion on this subject.

[jmorris]

If you mean the little RCBS Partner press, I have a young friend (mid 50s) who uses a .338 Win Mag for his southern white tail deer rifle.

No, like these, couldn’t reload anything as long as the .338 mag on one and wouldn’t want to use the force on some that it would take to size a case back fired out of a factory rifle.

The rifles are built so tight, that case necks must be turned so the case and bullet can chamber and custom dies for the chamber also size them minimally.

For example, out of my .262nk 6mm PPC rifles I can load and fire the same case 3 times and not even have to size it, to load and fire it. Try that with your friends .338 and after the first shot the case is blown out so much the bullet will fall right to the bottom. Moving all that brass back where it belongs requires a lot more force than the things we are playing with.

[Lloyd Smale]

Im sure not a bench rest shooter but id bet my time working up loads off a bench is measured in years not days. Anyone who claims a guy cant make GOOD ammo on a progressive press is usually a guy who cant afford one or most likely doesnt shoot enough to justify one. PLEASE dont tell my ar15s ar10s and 223 varmint guns im cheating and theyve been overperforming for decades. Im surely not a long range competitive shooter and have never even been to a match but id dare wager ive shot more long range deer then anyone on here. Now im talking at a piddling 4-500 yards though not at a 1000. Many of those shot with ammo i loaded on my lnl's and 550. My point in all of this is most of us here are not competitive long range shooters and like anyone thats actually used a 550 will tell you. It will make ammo that is good enough for 99.9 percent of us.

[jmorris]

How about top score at US Palma Team trials loading with a 550?

https://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek059.html

[Lloyd Smale]

How about top score at US Palma Team trials loading with a 550?

https://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek059.html

Id about bet he won it because he had much more time to practice actual shooting then trying to buy an edge with high dollar tools. I load to shoot. Less time loading=more time shooting. More time shooting=me being a better shot. I think some do most of there shooting with a keyboard.