Pistol Smiths - I need some help and advice on a Pietta .44 1860 Colt Army

[bedbugbilly]

I am hoping that someone on here can help give me some advice on a Pietta 1860 Army C & Ball revolver that I recently acquired for a “project gun”. I have no issues on working on rifles, but I am not a “Pistol Smith” – but I know there are some on here who are familiar working on revolvers and who know what they are doing. I have owned many C & B revolvers over the years, Uberti, Pietta, ASM and several other brands – and I guess I was lucky as I never had to have any work done on them with the exception of one, and I had a good friend at the time (now deceased) who was good at pistol work and he got it all tune up for me. I figured it was time to get familiar with doing some tune up work on a C & B revolver so it’s time to start my “education” and I figured this pistol would be a good one to learn on. I will mention that I have read Larsen Petifogger’s “Tuning The Pietta Cap and Ball” as well as some threads on this site but it’s going to be a matter of rolling up my sleeves and getting in to it and learning by doing. I am in hopes that by describing the issues with this revolver, someone with experience in tuning them up can possibly tell me what to look for as well as what internal parts I will need to locate to fix it. So here goes . . .

The Revolver:

Pietta 1860 Army – date code of “BP” which puts it as made in 2001. I have no idea of how many owners this revolver has gone through – the bore is pretty much pristine as are the chambers. It shows outside wear – my guess is possibly a re-enactor’s pistol at some point but overall, they kept it pretty clean. Some minor pitting on the right side on the barrel near the wedge area – this is one of the first pistols I have had where the wedge actually has the wedge spring in the profile it is supposed to have. Steel backstrap/brass trigger guard and cut for stock. My plans are that once I have the action fixed, I will strip the finish, remove the Pietta billboard signs on the barrel and then give the pistol an “antique finish”. The once piece grip is nice walnut so I may strip them, work them down to fit the grip frame (they are “proud” of the metal overall) and either distress/antique them or possibly opt for a set of aged faux ivory grips.

Overall, the screw heads on the frame look good – no buggered slots – but the screws holding the brass trigger guard on to the frame have obviously been in and out a number of times as the slots show it. So, it makes me wonder if someone “tuned” the revolver that didn’t know what they were doing.

So, I will try and describe what is going on in the hopes that it may provide an idea as to what the issue/s is/are.

A. When the hammer is pulled back, you hear the distinct half cock click and the full cock click. I have to put my ear close to the cylinder/frame to hear the click right after the half cock click where the bolt is tapping the cylinder. So, instead of the distinctive Colt 3 click cocking, the second click where the bolt taps the cylinder is very light.
B. On the cylinder, the bolt is making a slight drag line on the scooped “approach” adjacent to the rectangular slot in the cylinder where the bolt fits in. It does not appear that the bolt is “peening” the rectangular notch.
C. When the hammer is pulled back to begin the cocking sequence, the cylinder rotates and when fully cocked, the cylinder cannot be turned by hand (as in by-passing the bolt) but the “lock up” is quite sloppy. If you were to hold the pistol with the butt towards your body and the muzzle pointed away from your body and look down on the top of the revolver, the nipple slot in the cylinder appears to line up with the hammer slot, but, if you have the pistol cocked and reach down, the cylinder will rotate in the opposite direction of normal cylinder rotation so that the nipple slot in the cylinder is offset from the hammer slot by approximately 1/8”. i.e. the cylinder chamber would be offset from the bore. This occurs the same for each chamber.

I am no expert, but my question would be, “on full cock, is the bolt not extending up into the bolt slot in the cylinder far enough to “lock” the cylinder so that the chamber is in line with the bore”?” and, if so, why?

Does the “pawl” (if my terms are correct) that pushes on the notches at the rear of the cylinder to advance and index the cylinder to the next chamber, when on full cock is it still pushing on the rear ratchet of the cylinder putting side pressure on the bolt (which I presume is all the way into the bolt notch when on full cock) to lock up the cylinder in place or does it retract once the hammer is on full cock?

Something is really “amiss” on this pistol to allow the cylinder to rotate out of time by about 1/8” when in full cock – i.e. the cylinder be able to rotate 1/8” when it should be locked up - so should I be looking for a complete set of new internal parts for this pistol? I have also read that the bolt cam on a hammer can get worn or mis-adjusted by someone who does not know what they are doing, so, should I also be looking for a new hammer to replace the one on this pistol? I’m not worried about having spare parts on hand as I’m sure that once I can get this Pietta fixed, I’ll probably be looking for more “project” pieces that I might be able to use them on – I’d rather have them and not need them than to need them and not have them.

I have not torn this pistol down yet as I am waiting on a new set of decent hollow ground screwdriver bits, a set of honing stones and a set of small files – both regular and diamond. I know there is a “fix” for this pistol as it is too good not to fix so it operates correctly. Right now, if I know what parts I should be looking for, I can start trying to find them as, because of the virus issue, etc., I have a feeling that supplies will be limited from Italy for quite some time. Any suggestions or ideas of what to look for as far as what is out of whack on this pistol would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

It sounds to me: (A) You need to check the hammer notches, have they been filed, and the main spring. If the gun was tuned up by someone they may have replaced or altered the main spring for a lighter let-off, and perhaps polished the hammer notches. But, since you do hear a faint click, this may prove not to be a problem. (B) Drag marks are caused by the falling (rising) of the locking bolt. It is a rare revolver of any type that does not show some drag line. Starting in the dished area just preceding the locking notch is considered just about ideal. No problem seen there by myself. (C) Sloppy lockup when fully cocked would indicate (to me) the need to fit a new locking lug and spring. Yes, the pawl (hand) does remain in contact with the ratchet, and perhaps the sloppiness and reverse rotation problems stem from the combination of pawl and locking bolt. A specific diagnosis is difficult without having it in front of me, and it could be either or both, but from your description I'm thinking it is the fit of the locking bolt and that's where I would start.

[Hellgate]

I'm a little confused here.... Does the cylinder over travel when cocked? (i.e. rotate past battery) Whenever I try out a new C&B I hold the trigger down and forcefully cock the hammer repeatedly to see if the cylinder bypasses the bolt. I have few Piettas (tons of ASMs, Ubertis & ASPs) but have READ that the Piettas often have bolts that are too wide to reliably engage the cylinder notches and need thinning so they seat into the notches.

[Bent Ramrod]

A worthwhile investment for the aspiring revolversmith is Jerry Kuhnhausen’s book on pistolsmithing the Colt single action revolvers. Although it is primarily aimed at the 1873 Colt cartridge guns (and says a lot of unkind, and IME, not entirely accurate) things about the Italian replicas, the basic operations of troubleshooting, repairing and tuning these revolvers carry over to the cap-and-ball pistols rather well.

Larsen Pettifogger’s essays are pretty good, although he kind of lost me on his insistence that the grips of the replicas are misshapen, and need to be redone.

[bedbugbilly]

Der Gebirgsjager - thanks very much for your suggestions and they give me a good place to get started. I'm hoping my new set of hollow ground screwdrivers will get her quickly as I'm anxious to be able to take a look at these things.

Hellgate - If I hod the trigger back and cock as you describe, the cylinder inxexs in the normal rotation on each chamber and the nipple cutout in the cylinder lines up with the hammer cutout in the frame - i.e. in batter. BUT . . while it lines up on initial cocking, once cocked and lock, the cylinder is able to move 1/8" (approx) in the opposite direction of normal rotation so that the nipple notch in the notch in the cylinder is misaligned with the hammer channel in the frame by about 1/8" (out of battery) so that chambers wold be misaligned with the bore - this is on all six chambers. So . . if you cocked the revolver but shook it around, the cylinder could move in reverse of normal rotation and the chamber could be off from the bore alignment - not a safe thing! :-)

Petifogger refers to what you say about the Pietta bolts sometimes being too wide to properly fit in the notches and he shows how to ark the area above e the frame, carefully file and thin the bolt head that is above the frame to fit the notch correctly but leave the thickness of the bolt that fits in the hole in the frame to maintain correct alignment. I son't know the history of this revolver or who did what to it but what you say may very well be part of the issue as it makes sense that if the bolt was to seated in the cylinder slot fully, the cylinder could move in reverse rotation of normal roatation so that I will check out. I have a feeling that it is a combination of more than one thing.

Bent Ramrod - thanks on the recommendation of Kuhnhusen's book. That was going to be my next question as to whether there are any good books out there on the SA revolvers that a person could read and study. I'm going to hunt that book up later this afternoon and try and get a copy ordered as it sounds like a good one to have for reference. I also have two Uberti 1873 SAA revolvers (which I love) and it wouldn't hurt to have the book to get the basics on those revolvers as well.

I understand your comment about Petifogger article in regards to the frame - I know some have a fit over the Pietta frame but I have never found them much to worry about - all in the eye of the beholder - and the Piettas I have had felt fine in my hand and shot decently. I found a listing of a number of his articles and have been reading (and re-reading) them. He does do a good job of providing photos, etc. so once I get in to this project, I'm sure I'll be referring back to them but for me, it's a lot easier when I can actually see and handle rather than just relying on photos and descriptions.

Thanks fellas - you have all given me a good place to start on this pistol and I'll keep posting on this thread to get more advice as I go along I'm sure!

[Hellgate]

Billy,
I'm wondering if the bolt being too wide (or cylinder notches being too narrow [take your pick]) that when the hammer is let down a bit at full cock, maybe the hand is puling down on the cylinder ratchet and rotating the cylinder out of alignment. The bolt has to be loose for that to happen. If the bolt is seated well the hand dragging on the ratchet would not be enough to turn the cylinder at all and should slip over the ratchet tooth. I wouldn't mess with the hand spring but I'd wonder if it were weaker whether it would no longer rotate out the cylinder. The best thing would be to widen the cylinder notches. If you totally botch it, I have a spare 44 cal Pietta cylinder I'd ship to you out of respect and pity.:violin:

[Battis]

I think that when you tear it completely down, the problem and solution will be evident.

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you Hellgate - when I tear ti down, the first thing I want to check is the bolt fit to the cylinder bolt slots - I pulled the barrel and cylinder off but I couldn't get an accurate reading on the bolt head width versus the cylinder notches with my dial calibers - when the boot is bolt is out a quick check of fit should tell me in regards to that possible issue. I think that Battis is probably right in what he says.

I spent th afternoon on the computer and making calls and was finally able to locate all the parts for the inside including a new hammer and mainspring - I'm thinking that repacking all fo the internals might be the best way to go.. The one comment I will make is it is obvious that part supplies are might thin out there - with the Chinese virus issue - Italy getting hit so hard - it makes a person wonder on just how fast new ubertis, Piettas, etc as well as parts will be able to be brough tin to this country to stock the shelves. It's nobody's fault and just another thing that has been affected by all that has and is going on.

[45 Dragoon]

LOL!!!
Best to wait on the Kuhnhausen book so you can learn the correct sequence of fitting the parts. If not, go ahead and get another set! Free tip, it's easier to fit the bolt to the locking notches than the notches to the bolt.

Bent ramrod, what's not accurate?
Jim Martin was a huge contributor for that book and I learned personally from him. He was a consult for an Italian company for their products. I would love to here the "inaccuracies".

Mike

[Bent Ramrod]

He insisted that the Italian parts fits were sloppy, the holes drilled for pins&screws were at angles to surfaces rather than normal, and other things I don’t remember now. I haven’t found this to be the case with any Beretta, Uberti or Cimarron revolver.

Maybe he was referring to some Armi San Marcos or early Piettas, although it looks like Pietta learned from its few early mistakes and has come up to quality quickly. I haven’t found any angled or badly located pins, even in those brands that had minor timing or other “issues,” though.

A friend has a “real” Colt Signature Series 1860 that was extremely poorly fitted, but polished and blued to a fare-thee-well in an obvious effort to distract the owner from the defects. My Pietta double-action Starr, for all its mechanical problems, outshot it pretty handily, too. The Starr’s troubles were related more to the original design than Pietta’s execution, if the evaluations of the Union officers who used them are accurate.

Of course, a lot depends on the importer and price point. Maybe what Kuhnhausen saw in for repair were the remainders left after the quality importers high-graded the available offerings over there in Brescia; the leftovers offered for cheap in those one-square-inch ads by No-Name-O companies in the back of the gun mags.

[bedbugbilly]

45 Dragoon - I plan on waiting until I can get a copy of Kuhnhausens's book before I get into this - I have no intention of ruining a set of parts that are hard to come by - I guess I learned things like that during the past 55 + years of shooting and working on and tuning up rifled muskets and percussion/flintlock rifles when I wasn't building them.

And while you are "LOL" . . . thanks so much for your "free tip" about it being easier to fit a bolt to the cylinder notches than the notches to the bolt . . . . I guess I couldn't have figured that out through "common sense". And . . oh . . . thanks for the valuable suggestions as to what the issue/issues might be with this revolver. . . . which was the purpose of this post.

As I said, I am not a "pistol smith" but I do have a genuine interest in learning how to trouble shoot and be able to correct problems . . . and I learned a long time ago that the best way to help anyone learn anything, is to listen to the experiences of others and to read as much as you can on whatever the subject is . . . . and . . . that a person is never too old to learn something new.

Thanks so much for your valuable input . . . and thanks for sharing your expert knowledge . . . . I'm sure it has helped others, besides myself, who may be reading this thread that also have an interest in working on their own pistols.

[45 Dragoon]

Bent Ramrod, well to be honest, all S.A.s are somewhat sloppy. Parts fit on the screws /screw pins, hand fit on the hammer and in the hand slot, bolt head through the bolt window . . . and, like you point out, the alignment accuracy of the screw holes . . . the tolerances sometimes stack this way, sometimes that way. When closing the tolerances /clearances down on any S.A., they all are as individual as you or I. Installing bolt blocks and action stops give you fairly exacting parameters and can turn the S.A. into a marvelous mechanical machine!

Bedbugbilly, I apologize if I was a little bit harsh, I may have had you mixed up with someone else.
For tuning a working S.A. :
You'll want to start with the understanding that the hammer installed and the trigger installed determine the length of cycle. It's best to determine if the trigger engagement is what you want - positive (actually rocks hammer back before letoff), neutral (no hammer movement before letoff) or negative (very dangerous! hammer moving forward as the trigger is pulled . . . accident waiting to happen!!). The reason I bring this up now is "correcting" engagement last may change your "length of cycle" which means you get to go back and "fix" everything you just got done with!! I always make sure there is positive engagement for safety.
When you're satisfied with the engagement, you need to pay attention to the hand length. The bolt should lock the cylinder at the same instant full cock is reached. If the cyl locks early, the hand is too long. If the cyl locks after reaching full cock it's too short. Once you've achieved simultaneous lock-up and full cock, you're most of the way done!!! All that's left is "bolt drop". The bolt should drop (off the hammer cam) and contact the cyl in the middle of the " approach ". Bolt drop is determined by the length of the left bolt arm. Go slow and check often when removing material from the rear most vertical area of the bolt arm.

This is a rather simplified "overall view" of the tuning process. Adding the mentioned bolt block and action stop make for a much more precise action and cycle length.

Mike

[bedbugbilly]

My apologies as well Mike and I thank you greatly for the information. I have copied it off, broken it down into steps and put it in my notebook - I have had a lot going on this week and hope to get into the pistol this weekend. You've provided info and steps that will be a great help - thank you! I sent you a PM as well.

Jim