RCBS-200-FN : 1 Deer : 0

[chickenstripe]

Got this button buck on this past Monday. Funny thing is, I took him because he was the biggest deer of the 5 in the group. I was surprised he only weighed out at 90lbs field dressed.

But the most surprising thing is the entry wound, and the bruised meat. Looks like he was hit by a car. It also looks like he has two exit wounds, so I assume the bullet came apart inside. There was shock damage down to the last joint in his front leg, and you can see the rest.

Bullet was only moving at ~1500fps at impact, which was at 68yds. Slight raking shot from just behind the right leg at the bend, to the last rib on the left side.

Looks like I need a softer bullet? I've ordered a hardness tester. I alloyed at 30/70, lino/WW and air cooled. I used this because it was much more accurate than straight ACWW.

Thoughts?

[Glen]

How many bones did it hit?

[Bigjohn]

I don't know of anyone or anything that would appreciate being poked with 200grs of lead at 1,500fps.

You did not say what calibre? I have not seen a recent RCBS catalogue for many years so I don't know which boolit you are refering to.

John

[chickenstripe]

35cal, out of a 673 guide gun in 350 rem mag. I can't believe that the entry wound wold be affected by a rib bone?

It's hanging, so I can take a look, but I doubt it missed the rib bones.

[RugerFan]

Congrats on putting some venison in the freezer. I doubt that the bullet came apart. Most likely the second exit hole was caused by a bone fragment. A bullet that's 70% WW should hold together pretty good at 1700 fps (and beyond).

[chickenstripe]

The last wound I saw that was anywhere near that devistating, was from an 87gr V-max out of a 243.

[NHlever]

I've seen straight linotype boolits shatter when they hit bone so I guess that is possible. Antimony doesn't really alloy with lead, and there needs to be tin in the alloy. The tin surrounds the antimony, and alloys with the lead. In a linotype / wheelweight alloy there is very little tin, so maybe it does retain some characteristics of the lino. Softer is probably better for hunting, but perhaps just more tin would make it more mallable.

[Bigjohn]

I have not shot any deer that light with a calibre that heavy. IMO even at 1500fps, a deer that small at 68yds could show that sort of damage.

I agree, it is possible that your boolit broke up and exited in two place. IMO 30% Linotype is a waste, try 10% or less. Remember there is antimony in the WW already.
P.S. That size deer would be about the mid range for our fallow deer and most hunter settle for calibres upto .308" for the long shots and 7.62 x 39 M43 for the closer shots. A .30/30 would do the job. I've been thinking of trying the 311041 out on some of them.
John.

[Bullshop]

Forget the deer for a minute I want to know how you like that rifle. Its kinda funny about them rifles you know starting with the 660 I think it was. They made it and they didnt sell. The writers said it was the best thing ever and too bad they quit making it.
So then they made it again(sorta) and it seems about like the first time thier not selling so good. Seems like it should have about all bases covered and do it well. I was sure lookin at um but I have a 35 Whelen imp for about 25 years now so between the two the 350 would prolly get left home. Dang them fits of practicality!!! We shooters is a strange lot we is!
BIC/BS

[chickenstripe]

An RCBS 35cal 200gr bullet at 1700fps muzzle velocity, will have approx 1000fp of energy at 70yds. Whereas, a 30-30 with a 170gr factory load will have approx 1500fpe. I believe the bullet construction, and shape, has more to do with the damage than the magnum caliber. I’ve seen deer hit with a 35 Rem, 200gr core-lokt and they’ve had a lot less damage, and I’m just approaching the low end of 35 Rem ballistics. I believe the malleability is the key, but I’m taking everything into consideration.

I do have a load worked up with the 31141 for my 30-30. I believe it will be traveling into the woods with me this weekend. I’m shooting straight ACWW out of it at about 173gr and 1600fps.

Bullshop,
I absolutely love this rifle. Lightweight (I believe 7.5lbs loaded, with a sling), accurate (approx 1” @100yds when I do my part). I topped it with a Weaver V-3 to keep the weight down, and preserve the handling. Recoil is manageable, even with 250gr Hornady’s at 2400fps, and I don’t have to move my head when I cycle the action, as I sometimes have to do with a long action gun. I like the looks of it too, just something a bit different in the woods.

[Bigjohn]

I spoke with a fellow caster/shooter yesterday evening and he concurs with the opinion that the boolit broke in two. If it did not; then it may have punched out a piece of bone.

As to the bruising, this is on the boolit entry side?

Is it possible that the deer had been injured prior to you shooting it?

In all my years of hunting, I have never experienced anything like what you describe.

Which ever way you look at it and taking into account your questions; it is still meat in the freezer, well done. :drinks:

John

[chickenstripe]

It almost seems like I mad a typo, but the wound pictured is on the boolit entry side. That's the only reason I actually felt compelled to post. This is my first deer with cast, and I wanted to determine if this was typical.

I do not believe it was injured prior to shooting. I'm going to take a closer look at the wounds tomorrow during butchering, to see if a bone was hit upon entry.

I've seen damage like this, but it was using a varmint bullet on deer. I guess I'll have to do further "field testing". I was going to break out the 30-30, but I'll be back in the woods this weekend with the 673 in hand.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

When I determine the bullet hardness, I'll try and remember to post the result.

[NHlever]

If your high antimony bullet shattered, it could have well done that on impact, and still have enough energy left in a couple of larger fragments to make exit holes. It sure looks to me like that is what happened. Tougher, but not harder, mallable bullets won't do that.

[largom]

I believe your boolit is way too hard. I shot a nice doe Tue. with the same boolit in my 35 Rem. at 1800 fps. My alloy was 33% WW and 66% lead with an aged BHN of 13. I shot thru the left front shoulder and exited just behind the right shoulder. I missed the heart but everything else in the chest cavity was mush. I lost very little meat.
I believe your boolit blew up into many fragments.
Larry

[RugerFan]

Sorry guys, I’m not buying the whole shattered bullet thing. We’re not talk 100% lino here. I have shot a number of hogs and deer with an alloy of 75/25 - WW/linotype (including kills with the same bullet – RCBS 35-200-FN) at distances ranging from 10 to 125 yards and a muzzle velocity of 2,000 fps. I have never had a bullet come apart (I’m not talking about little flecks of lead, but rather major break up) even when hitting heavy bone. I don’t think 5% more lino would suddenly cause bullet break up. Of course anything’s possible and I could be wrong, but I really doubt that bullet came apart in two major pieces. I’m still betting on a bone fragment causing a secondary exit hole.

[chickenstripe]

Hopefully I'll be able to shed some light on the bullet breakup thing this evening.....
We're butchering everything tonight.

I'll check for bone displacement, and lead. Although, I found no signs of bullet when field dressing.

[Larry Gibson]

Chickenstripe

Was there any chance that bullet hit something in route to the deer like a piece of brush? There is way too much damage there for a straight on shot. Just asking...

Larry Gibson

[clodhopper]

I shot four deer this fall with RCBS 200 grain .35 launched from a 700 classic Whelen 1-16 twist. about 1800 FPS. 50/50 ww and range pickup lead. Water quenched from the mould
Two through the ribs shots. both blew right through, the deer died quickly.
One from high in the brisket to lower right side nice hole, deer died quickly.
The other one was leaving the haystack at a good clip when I walked around it.
Didnt lead enough and the bullet entered the forward part of the hindquarter and exited about mid gut. the deer died quickly but the meat around the entrance hole looked like a hit from a high velocity varmit bullet. There was a cavity about the size of a schoolboy apple. and some stringy gore in the hole.
Wondering if the bullet caught that muscle under tension and did that damage. I did not look real close but I only saw one exit wound.
I shot him at dusk, skinned him in the dark, and did a quick boneing job 36 hours later for 300 mile trip home in econo car.

[chickenstripe]

OK, after butchering I found four exit wounds. Two pairs. One set was a straight path through the deer exiting just behind the front left leg (mirrored from the entry hole). The other pair passed at an angled trajectory through the body of the deer and entered just in front of the last rib about 4" lower on the deer (passed through the stomach). I'd have to say it broke up..... I just don't understand why.

Didn't hut a rib on the way in, but it appears to have hit the front leg upon entry, just at the elbow or bend... a slight nick.

The path to the deer was clear, there was no brush or twigs to hit.

It almost seems that the bullet broke into 4 pieces, and the leg threw a pair of fragments to the rear of the deer, and two continued along the bullets original flight path.

I'll be able to determine a bullet hardness this weekend (hopefully).

[NHlever]

I've seen linotype bullets break up on woodchucks. The problem is that antimony doesn't alloy with lead, instead, it stays as separate crystals in the lead. If you magnify the mix enough you can see that. When tin is added to the alloy, it surrounds the antimony and in turn alloys with the lead. While the antimony / lead mixture, or more correctly composite is quite brittle, and fractures quite easily, the addition of tin does form an alloy. I did prototype work with an aluminum / carbide composite some time ago, and it behaved the same way, and for the same reasons. All your bullet had to do was impact the deer at a very slight angle to initiate the breakup. By adding linotype to wheelweights you perhaps increased the antimony content to a percent higher than there was available tin to alloy since both wheelweights, and linotype are both very low in tin.

[chickenstripe]

The boolit tested @ 9.8 BHN....

Anyone else have any suggestions as to why this happened?

I was under the impression I had obtained linotype, from a local print shop, to alloy with.... but apparently, what I obtained is much softer.

The straight WW bullets that I had cast are coming in @ 13.4 BHN. Which after searching the posts seems correct. This was the WW used for the alloying.

This hardness tester is going to change my casting alloys.

[C A Plater]

Well pure lead is around 5 BHN and 20 to 1 at around 10 BHN so you've got some pretty soft alloy there.