just a noticed fact on hunting power

[pocketace]

does the cartridge no longer mean a damned thing when using cast bullets?

not much distinction is made on MUZZLE ENERGY with cast bullets, a 30 caliber bullet pushing a given bullet to a stated velocity when loaded into a 30-30, .308, or 30-06 is given simply a " frontal mass is good, velocity is sufficient to punch through the shoulder .... good to hunt with"

why dont we ever break it down by cartridge? id never trust a 300 BO with jacketed bullets on deer past 100 yards, and only with 150 grain jsp loaded like a 30-30 or better..

But given a 170 grain cast flat point, and loaded to the same velocity as in a 30-30 or .308 winchester it doesnt seem as in effective.

[MT Chambers]

I think it is because for so many years all that "theory" stuff was believed, velocity, BC, energy, etc. Most of it is bunk if you aim straight.

[rking22]

What difference does it make what the headstamp is? The same bullet of the same alloy at the same velocity and rpm will have the same exterior ballistics and the same effect on game. Wheather it was breach seated in front of a 32-40 case or on a bunch more powder and filler from a 300 ultra mag. I get 2050fps with a 168 gr bullet on 24.5 gr of 2230c. Does it matter what the gun is chambered for? That’s as fast as I shoot that bullet out of anything. Nice that the lil 7.62x39 makes efficient use of powder.

[pocketace]

357 and deer or bear, no.

just wish rimfire was reliable enough for such an experiment... if it bounces off a squirrel id hate to think what would happen with a deer.

But on the other hand, i have a feeling a 200 grain super police would plow through a deer just fine.

[Norske]

Momentum is a much better measure of stopping/killing power than kinetic energy. This is important with anything built heavier than deer. With factory ammo, it's simple to calculate momentum. Divide the KE by the velocity and multiply that answer times 2. This is assuming similar bullets with similar penetration, expansion, bullet diameter, etc. Hornady's website used to have a simple knock down calculator in its ballistics link. Using that, you would learn the 460 S&W had about 80% the KO of the lowly 480 Ruger. The ballistics link has gotten much more technical since the those earlier days.

A Google search for "optimal ranges for big game animals" will also provide useful information.

[bmortell]

in say a 30 cal 10 twist it usually dont matter what cartrige it is because you cant normally get over 2000fps anyway or im shooting buckshot size groups. so my 300 magnum is basically a 30-30. so the distinction of how big it is dont really matter for external balistics

[waksupi]

The problem is people try to compare cast bullets to jacketed. They don't work the same.

[robg]

near miss is still a miss .

[scattershot]

I have a friend who killed a deer with a .380. It’s not so much what you hit ‘em with, it’s where you hit ‘em.

[versa-06]

I think twist rate, throat depth, alloy, & boolit weight are some of the more important things in a 30 cal. weapon trying to increase or decrease performance vs what is stamped on the base of a brass, Just my opinion? Jim

[versa-06]

Oh Yea & another thing, 357 won't kill deer & Bear?

[MUSTANG]

Many need to learn three concepts and their definition (and what each affects):

Internal ballistics
"Internal ballistics, a subfield of ballistics, is the study of the propulsion of a projectile." and how the bullet is affected while in the barrel

External ballistics
"External ballistics or exterior ballistics is the part of ballistics that deals with the behavior of a projectile in flight. The projectile may be powered or un-powered, guided or unguided, spin or fin stabilized, flying through an atmosphere or in the vacuum of space, but most certainly flying under the influence of a gravitational field."

Terminal ballistics
"Terminal ballistics, a sub-field of ballistics, is the study of the behavior and effects of a projectile when it hits and transfers its energy to a target. Bullet design and the velocity of impact largely determine the effectiveness of its impact."

[303Guy]

Terminal ballistics
"Terminal ballistics, a sub-field of ballistics, is the study of the behavior and effects of a projectile when it hits and transfers its energy to a target. Bullet design and the velocity of impact largely determine the effectiveness of its impact."
And this is where the real interest lies. For me anyway. Sure, getting the boolit to target is important too but it's what the boolit does on target that counts. To me, the simplest is to go 40 or 44 cal heavy and not too fast. But lacking the cash flow, I need to make what I have do the job as best I can. Hence my interest.

So in my mind, a heavy for caliber (31 cal) wide flat nosed boolit at the maximum accurate velocity which would be around 1800 fps should meet my requirements. (paper is damned hard to drop on the spot!). Well OK, we are talking live targets here but one has to actually hit the critter to bring it down. In my parts, I hear that feral pig can get quite large and getting in their way could be unhealthy, so being able to stop 'em is a high priority. Can't eat 'em if they duck away only to be lost to the worms. Not too many folk actually get taken out by big boars. Or big sows. Or maybe we just don't get to hear their story. Hah! My mate was actually charged by a pig!

[Texas by God]

I’m still trying to understand the first post here.

[dtknowles]

I think it was Jeff Cooper who said that you need at least 40 caliber 200 grain bullet at 1000 fps on impact to be a reliable deer killer for a non-expanding bullet. He did say that a hot .357 with an expanding bullet would probably work too. I am not sure a hard cast 30 caliber bullet at 2200 fps is going to be better. The margin for error and the size of the wound channel diminishes with small bullet diameters. Momentum or Kinetic Energy expended on the dirt on the other side of the target is useless.

Tim

[popper]

Cartridge just holds the powder - so no - makes NO difference. Energy - yes, some states have min. required for hunting. Caliber - depends on how big a hole you want. Momentum (power factor) is easier to calculate. Energy does the work - need enough (at range of target) to punch through hide, plow through organs and maybe break some bones. Any left over hits dirt? Simple enough.

[swheeler]

Muzzle energy was never anything more than something to brag about, KO value was of more use to a hunter.

[popper]

Taylor TKO equation = weight* fps*diameter/7000
So he added dia to the (momentum) equation, just bigger hole!

[303Guy]

Taylor TKO equation = weight* fps*diameter/7000
So he added dia to the (momentum) equation, just bigger hole!

But that doesn't take expansion into account. It is a starting point though.

[Stephen Cohen]

This was for me an interesting thread, I have never really considered barrel twist into my calculations. I agree with those here that it is a mute point if one does not hit where he aims, and if one does then as I have always believed a heavy for caliber rather soft bullet at 1700 odd fps will kill most game. For your American man eaters bigger would be my choice. Regards Stephen

[brewer12345]

Velocity isn't all that. I am fixing to hunt elk next month with a 278 grain round ball over 90 grains of black powder. Ballistics on paper are not impressive, but the ball will pass through a cow at 100 yards.

[megasupermagnum]

I think it was Jeff Cooper who said that you need at least 40 caliber 200 grain bullet at 1000 fps on impact to be a reliable deer killer for a non-expanding bullet. He did say that a hot .357 with an expanding bullet would probably work too. I am not sure a hard cast 30 caliber bullet at 2200 fps is going to be better. The margin for error and the size of the wound channel diminishes with small bullet diameters. Momentum or Kinetic Energy expended on the dirt on the other side of the target is useless.

Tim

I know we all like our cast bullets on this site, but there is a lot more to it than "bigger is better". There is no way to honestly quantify the effectiveness of a round based on basic mathematical formulas. Energy number, momentum numbers, TKO formula, etc. They are all junk.

Many, many, far too many are penetration is everything fiends. There is no doubt at all that a 44 special, 45 colt, 45 acp and so on are great hunting rounds with solid bullets, as they penetrate like crazy. What they do not have is the speed or expansion to cause a large wound channel. "Bigger is all that matters", is something repeated too often on this site. You state a 40 something caliber 200 grain bullet at 1000 fps vs a 200 grain 30 caliber bullet at 2200 fps. The latter would be a very strong 30-30 or a weak 308 round. I'll put a 308 winchester up against just about any handgun cartridge. More is more, and the 308 is WAY more.

[dtknowles]

I know we all like our cast bullets on this site, but there is a lot more to it than "bigger is better". There is no way to honestly quantify the effectiveness of a round based on basic mathematical formulas. Energy number, momentum numbers, TKO formula, etc. They are all junk.

Many, many, far too many are penetration is everything fiends. There is no doubt at all that a 44 special, 45 colt, 45 acp and so on are great hunting rounds with solid bullets, as they penetrate like crazy. What they do not have is the speed or expansion to cause a large wound channel. "Bigger is all that matters", is something repeated too often on this site. You state a 40 something caliber 200 grain bullet at 1000 fps vs a 200 grain 30 caliber bullet at 2200 fps. The latter would be a very strong 30-30 or a weak 308 round. I'll put a 308 winchester up against just about any handgun cartridge. More is more, and the 308 is WAY more.

30-06 military ball ammo is notorious for wounding but not dropping game. High velocity without an expanding bullet or at least a substantial meplat does not produce good outcomes. People here advocate for large diameter bullets because we use cast bullets.

Tim

[jaysouth]

357 and deer or bear, no.

just wish rimfire was reliable enough for such an experiment... if it bounces off a squirrel id hate to think what would happen with a deer.

But on the other hand, i have a feeling a 200 grain super police would plow through a deer just fine.

Where I grew up, half the deer killed were killed with a .22 rimfire and a carbide lamp or flashlight.

[trapper9260]

Where I grew up, half the deer killed were killed with a .22 rimfire and a carbide lamp or flashlight.

You right on the 22 rim fire , I read in different places that state that more deer are poaching with the 22 rim fire then any other cartridge. Like was stated is shot placement , also for the twist of the barrel is from what I read on here in different post is to match the bullet to the twist. I also found that out myself with one of my muzzle loaders and some other rifles.

[GhostHawk]

You don't need speed to kill. If you did the .45acp in the 1911 would never have risen to the position it holds.

.45 caliber 200 + grain bullet moving at 800 to 1200 leaves 2 holes, in almost everything.

Speed makes life easy, ballistic wise. But if you burn the ammo, learn the rainbow, it will do the job. Look at the .45-70.

Large for caliber bullet, lots of practice, knowing you can put the round where it needs to be at the range involved is going to put meat in the pot more times than not. But the caveat here is putting in the time, knowing the rainbow, learning it. Learning to judge the distance fairly accurately.

And the best part is you can probably load those for 8-12 cents a round compared to 1-2$ per round for factory high speed rounds. I know which I prefer, YMMV.

[Tripplebeards]

We all know with a well placed shot with using just about any bullet/boolit will kill just about anything. It’s how far and how long you have to look for the animal without a blood trail. Going from hard cast to soft cast and boolit design will play a HUGE outcome in Kinetic energy transferred as well. Hard cast if not hitting bone isn’t going to expand and very little to zero energy transfer IMO. Most hope the “wide“ metplate will rip and tear through the vitals. I would rather cast as soft as possible and get as much expansion as I can with soft cast. Can’t wait to see how my 10.4 BH, 50/50 COWW and pure lead mix, 200 grain hollow point does on deer loaded at 2100 FPS. I’m sure it will work just as good as jacketed ammo because of the design and boolit choice. It shoots three in the same hole pretty consistently at 100 yards as well. I just read an outdoor life or field and stream article last month about casting up a soft cast boolit vs hard cast and how the soft cast. They talked about expansion and energy transfer with soft cast expanding boolit and how it aids in better blood trails and putting an animal down quicker vs poking a hole straight through with a non expanding hard cast boolit. It was a good read.

[444ttd]

The religion of KE: proposed by the ignorant, and parroted by the unknowing.

hmmm.......i just can't remember.

[popper]

So the flat nose soft alloy cast just increases the diameter part of the Taylor KO formula - KO still 'works'. FMJ is often illegal for hunting as it was designed to puncture more than flesh. Hollow point and 'tipped' bullets just try to allow expansion and fed into KO, yup. More damage. Head on VW bug vs semi - who wins? Obviously KO does work! I would shoot a hog with the 150gr gold dot (1400 fps expansion) for BO or my 145gr FN cast @ 100. Both are loaded for 2k fps. Twist really only comes into the equation for accuracy (at HV) and maybe terminal if it tumbles on the target (expansion?). Examine Chitown shooting stats, <10% die. Or how many shots LEO uses on bad guy before the problem solved? I hit the south end of a running northbound 150# hog with 40sw @ 20 yds (on the 3rd shot), 165gr TC hard cast broke front leg and out the gullet. He still went 100 yds. Buddy (and wife) use blazer 115 9mm and often empty the mag into one. They use ar15 for stand shooting, still needs more than one shot! Terminal difference? yup.

[GLynn41]

I have killed deer with expanding and with WLN solids-- and I have not seen much difference. I did shoot a boar and the solids made good and big holes but he was not so impressed- took 3 or four shots. The deer also had very large holes but the holes were where they belong, so end result was the same-one shot drt or near by--my state says use expanding bullets - so I do-- cast hps or cast soft points. lever gun or handgun ---But both can and will work.

[BunkTheory]

I think this post was about how a cast bullet can make an ineffective cartridge into a decent cartridge for hunting deer with.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?435728-311008-works-for-deer-too!&p=5316148#post5316148

IF that author had used a conventional copper jacketed bullet, and hit the deer in the same spot, the bullet would have simply stuck inside the shoulder of impact. And required a follow up shot to dispatch the poor animal. Rather dismal result common with ultra fast low weight rifle loads, 223 243

But the usage of a cast bullet as a sane velocity give the hunter through and through penetration, structural damage, internal damage. And meat on the table.

Far too much of the modern hunting world is about muzzle energy, recoil energy, bullet energy, and ratios of velocity to impact energy to determine bullet performance.

The fact that a 30-30 and 30-06 can push the same cast bullet to the same velocity, hit identical twin deer in the same spot on the shoulder, punch the lungs out, can get nearly identical results after impact. Its a liberating thing for the person who gets suckered into going for the 80 grain 2500 fps "easy fragmenting" jsp load in their .243 deer gun who cant get exit holes on a deer. But its also a sucker punch as they realize that they havent gained anything by skipping out on a .308 or 30-30

[Beaverhunter2]

....Using that, you would learn the 460 S&W had about 80% the KO of the lowly 480 Ruger....

"Lowly" You mean a 380gr HP at 1325fps with 1480 Ft. Lbs at muzzle and still over 1000ft. lbs. at 100yds? That's 150fps faster than a 240gr 44 magnum and twice the muzzle energy with a bullet 50% heavier. And its actually enjoyable to shoot (which a 460S&W is not....)

I agree that none of the various mathematical formulas truly represent the terminal performance of bullets. How many times have you heard you need 1000 ft lbs to kill a deer, and then seen the uncountable number of pictures of deer killed with .357s? You'd have to shoot a deer twice with a .44 Magnum to put 1000 ft. lbs into it! LOL

[DDriller]

I’m still trying to understand the first post here.

Me too. I don't understand how our forefathers survived with lowly muskets.

[Larry Gibson]

Me too. I don't understand how our forefathers survived with lowly muskets.

A great many didn't.....

[centershot]

357 and deer or bear, no.

just wish rimfire was reliable enough for such an experiment... if it bounces off a squirrel id hate to think what would happen with a deer.

But on the other hand, i have a feeling a 200 grain super police would plow through a deer just fine.

Wow! I'll have to write that down. Can't kill deer with a .357. OK.

[oldblinddog]

Taylor KO values only apply to FMJ solids used on heavy game like elephant, buffalo, etc.

[versa-06]

Hey, Larry G. ; Really hurts inside when you stop & think.

[kingrj]

There is no "magic" to any bullet or caliber....To effectively kill an animal it first has to have enough penetration to get to vital organs from what ever shot angle is taken..then it has to be able to disrupt by the transfer of its kinetic energy to those organs. The more energy transferred the more damage done.. Both momentum AND energy are important...My .243 kills with a rapid deceleration of the bullet and the subsiquent expansion/disintegration of the bullet resulting in a very rapid energy transfer..but it cannot be counted on to penetrate and continue to deliver that same energy release. My 255 grain .45 cast bullet with large flat meplat will penetrate from almost any angle but delivers its energy over a longer path, though the rate of energy transfer is much less than the .243...most .30 cal and above rifles have the ability to penetrate AND release high amounts of energy via jacketed expanding bullets....Most handguns that will fit in a holster do not...They have to depend on penetration of a fat bullet with a big meplat...I have killed deer with .357 caliber 158 grain JHP at 1950 fps and a .45 caliber 255 grain hard cast Keith style bullet at 1200 fps...Some run a little ways..some drop on the spot...but both bullets were able to GET into the vital organs...and hade ENOUGH energy to create disruption..