Fiocchi and Fed shell issues

[Powersgt]

I’ve come across a problem either with my PW 375 or straight walled new/used cases. 12 gauge.

I’ve loaded a hundred new Federal clear PB hills and a hundred Fiocchi 2 3/4 hills with BW and LB12 wads respectively.

Started with the Fed’s and had good luck all the way through crimping but shot a few and the cases just collapse during crimping. So I thought it was just poor quality shells.

Now I’ve loaded the Fiocchi new cases and had the same thing happen plus a dozen or so first loads collapse during crimping.

I readjusted my crimp die, adjust less tapper and even went as far as checking and adjusting wad pressure. The Fiocchi loads are with a spreader added to the 1 1/8oz. 71/2 Mag shot.

I pulled the crimp die out and disassembled it, it wasn’t overly dirty but the internal stem looks worn. I would blame the stem but 85% of the shells look good and the reloads always collapse.

Question: Any one experience a similar issue? I don’t think I can blame the Fiocchi shells because the Fed’s seem to do the same thing.

For those that have a PW375, have you seen issues like this?

Thanks for the help.

Powersgt

[Ozark mike]

Oops need to read post more thoroughly

[Powersgt]

Picture of Shotgun shells
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[megasupermagnum]

Are the collapsing near the base, or just over the top of the die? If just over the top of the die, then the only time I had that, the spring for the taper was cranked way too far up. Either that or your load is way too tight a fit, but being basic target loads this should not be the problem. Please post a picture of a crumpled shell.

[Geezer in NH]

Gauge would help

[megasupermagnum]

Ok, I see the pictures. I've never had one buckle that bad, but had something similar where it slightly bulged in the same place. Try with the taper crimp spring turned way out.

[Geezer in NH]

Gauge would help, pics don't look 12 gauge

[Hogtamer]

Wad height. You need a slightly taller wad or an overshot card, will fix it right up. I don't know who talked you into those wads bit these wil work nicely for 1 1/8 oz loads. https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Trap-Commander-12ga-wad-250_bag/productinfo/020Z21/

[Powersgt]

Gauge would help


Added note - 12 gauge 23/4 loads with new shells.

[Powersgt]

Wad height. You need a slightly taller wad or an overshot card, will fix it right up.

Tried overshot cards, the crimp looked better but will still crinkle the edge of the new case; not every time but a dozen out of 100. Seems like all the once fired cases do this every time.

[Hogtamer]

See what I added.....

[Powersgt]

See what I added.....
Not really talked into it, just inexperience with loading shotguns and reading up on products. Not many people in my area reloading shotguns much anymore other then clay busters and they are not loading for hunting.

My goal was a better jump shot grouse load, again most everyone here in the north woods shots factory fodder or pistols off of UTV and doesn’t take stock in loading there own.

I’ll give them a try, need to make an order to BP anyway.

Thanks for the help.

[jsizemore]

Are you using the newer taper crimp tooling?

[Powersgt]

Are you using the newer taper crimp tooling?

Yes but new is a relative answer. I noticed when I took that station apart that the shaft for setting crimp depth is worn on one side enough for me to feel the grove near the small hole in the shaft. I’m now wondering if the crimp catches or torques a bit when doing the final crimp and tapper. These tools where from a friend who’s dad passed away in a plane crash a few years back. I was told he was an avid clays guy and loaded quite a bit.

[garrisonjoe]

Crimp starter, crimp die, and final (finish) mouth taper dies all have to be adjusted correctly.

It depends upon what machine you are running (yes, I see it's a PW 375) for the details. I don't have a 375. But here's the general rules for adjusting.

You are loading BRAND NEW shells? Are they skived already? If not, you will probably want to skive (taper the hull near case mouth). BPI has a skiving tool.

Crimp starter needs to leave good looking tent with room in the center of the tent for a 22 round to fit in the hole. Crimp starter teeth need to match whatever crimp folds are already in case. Only apply a 6 point starter to cases that are either BRAND NEW or were initially crimped as 6 point shells. Apply a little oil to the teeth of crimp starter if using on new hulls. Your picture seems to show the "crumpling" is just a failure to get a good, smooth crimp edge.

Crimp die will have two adjustments. The body needs to fold in the crimp at the spot (height) where the old crimp shows the crease, or where a factory shell rolls over from the body to the crimp. Hull material needs to fold to touch in the middle - no gaping hole and no or very little swirled petals. Second adjustment made after first adjustment works correctly. That is the crimp depth setting, done with the central punch rod. Lower that so the "inset" of the crimp is the depth of a US dime (coin). About 0.050" below the roll of the shell wall at the crimp. This dimension is critical to keeping the crimp locked in place until round fires. Crumpled walls of the case are usually because first adjustment is too low.

If you cannot get 1 and 2 adjustments on crimp die to work right to give a good shell, then you have to check the wad plus shot height that your load is producing. Too much "column height" (powder plus wad plus shot) means the shot level is higher than 3/8" below the mouth of the hull before you crimp. This usually leads to not being able to close the crimp to a level position, the crimp cones up in center. Too little column height means shot level is below about 1/2" below the case mouth. Leads to funnels in the crimp and a hole where shot runs out.

Finish crimp simply smooths out the hull's end (the roll of the crimp) so the shell will feed well in autos and pumps. Don't adjust this lower than what just smooths out the end of the shell to remove any ridge at the fold over point (the roll). Going too low here also crumples shell walls.

And, yes, you could have a bent shaft on crimp starter. Take it apart enough to eyeball the shaft for straightness.

Good luck, garrisonjoe

[centershot]

garrisonjoe, as I read through your post I was envisioning in my mind all those steps you described and the problems caused by, and cured by, what you were saying. This, after several years of fiddling with my Mec 600 Jr. on my own, to have what is now a smooth running press. Your post is excellent in it's detail, Thank You!

[edp2k]

If the crimp station parts are visibly worn asymmetrically (i.e on one side), then I think you found at least some of the problem. :)
Get some new parts and try again.
Also, if the parts are worn on one side, that tells me something else is not aligned and is causing wear on one side.
The wear should be even on all sides.
Something is bent/misaligned.
All the crimped shells are crushed on the same side, right?

After you get new parts and things are aligned, you may also need overshot wad or different wad per another poster.

[Powersgt]

All the crimped shells are crushed on the same side, right?

After you get new parts and things are aligned, you may also need overshot wad or different wad per another poster.

These where my thoughts exactly and new parts are already on the way. This tooling was out of a different loader I converted to 10 gauge and I just started using this press. I made several repairs adjustments to it when I got the press but the tooling I had from a previous press. I ordered the “True crimp” assembly from PW; hopefully this solves some of the issues.

A shot card did not help the once fired hulls, I think the wear problem caused the intermittent damage to the new halls but every once fired haul crushes even with the correct stack height. I don’t want to bash the brand but seems like a lot of people are dissatisfied with the Fiocchi hulls and through them out after one load. Trouble is that the new Federal hulls do the same.

I have fresh hulls coming along with a couple different wads ( just remembered I should of order more cork/felt :groner:). Will see what comes about.

Thanks for the input and help.

Powersgt

[dverna]

Great post garrisonjoe. Should be a sticky.

[garrisonjoe]

Also, make sure the shell plate is indexing PERFECTLY to line up directly under the crimping dies. Lots of problems with progressive loaders damaging one side of the hull are imperfect indexing when running at normal speed.

[Powersgt]

New parts arrived today, I have high hopes. Their is some significant difference in the True Crimp vs the taper crimp die from years past; mostly wear.
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