Are you ready for the Rapture? [Archive]

GhostHawk

08-09-2020, 09:23 AM

No man knows the hour or the day, not even the Son of God or the Holy Spirit know. This one the Lord God Almighty is holding close to his chest.

Am I ready? Yes.

"As a theological milestone, how can we differentiate the Rapture from the Second Coming?"
Not sure you can or why you'd want to. IMO they are one and the same. He will come again.
" “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 "

"Is the idea of the rapture a solid theological premise or do only a few Christians believe in it?
Is the rapture a new idea or has it always been a concept present in church history?
Who first came up with the idea of a rapture of the church?"

No idea, and to me not really important.

"Can we predict when the rapture will take place or will it be a surprise?"
No we can not predict it, it will come when it comes. Most will not be ready.

"Is it possible to be ready for such a cataclysmic event?"

Of course. All you have to do is accept the lord totally.
Accept that it is HIS will that will be done, not ours.
Maintain a solid steadfast relaitinship with the Lord. Repent of your sins, try not to sin again. Do good works in his name.

The last does not have to be horrible terrible work. Spending an hour with an old friend visiting. Visit those you know who are sick and need of company.
"Mathew 25 :40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

So doing a few good works in his name is not hard. By their fruit you shall know them. Those who bring forth worthless fruit or no fruit shall be cut back and cast into the fire. But those who bring forth good fruit shall be pruned and encouraged.

When the Lord comes again in the air at the last trump he will seperate the sheep from the goats. And the sheep will all be of his flock, lovingly tended.
And the goats shall be cast down.

I am no bible scholar. And yet the Holy Spirit asked me to answer you as best I may.

Most of your questions IMO don't really apply.

Keep your faith polished bright.
Honor the Lord
Surrender to his will
Repent honestly of all your sins. Leave your burdens at his feet.
Go forth and try to spread the good news. Helping and loving others. Forgiving those who cause you pain.
Cleanse your heart of all ill feeling, anger, hate. The Holy Spirit can not stay in a heart cluttered with these.
Once you have a pure heart and a humble attitude pray that the Holy Spirit would visit you, guide you.
Once that happens, peace which surpasseth all understanding, peace like a river descends upon you. And it becomes much easier.

Once you learn to still your mind and listen you can hear him.

At that point the rapture has no fear for you. For you have been washed clean in the blood of the Lamb.

dtknowles

08-09-2020, 11:06 AM

I am ready but I don't believe the rapture will be. It is just a man made end of times story.

One should always be ready, not for our salvation but just because right is right and wrong is wrong and we should always do our best to be right. Sure I guess it is better if people to right because they want salvation. Sure it is better if people do what is right because they fear damnation and the fires of hell. Best is if people do what is right because they believe in doing what is right for its own reasons.

If you believe in God and do good so you will be saved you are committing the sin of selfishness - greed.

Praying for or even just hoping for the Rapture because you believe you are ready for it and want to experience it is selfish - evil.

Wanted to put humanity out of its misery now is like putting a dog down for a lame foot. There is still plenty of good in the world and hope for the future. I might be ready for the Rapture but the Planet is not we are far from the time.

A reminder, right and wrong are not limited to the ten commandments. The ten commandments are just an invitation to follow the letter but not the spirit of the law.

It is much better to demonstrate virtue than it is to work to avoid sin.

The guiding virture is Charity - Charity — Love for one’s neighbor as oneself - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Charity, which “binds everything together in perfect harmony” (Colossians 3:14, ESV).

Prudence is basically practical common sense. It’s saying or doing the proper thing, at the proper time, and in the appropriate manner. It’s also the ability to know and judge whether to say something or do nothing at all.

Justice is the virtue that seeks to promote fair play. It’s the desire and resolve to give each person his due. It demands that you reward goodness and punish evil. Justice can be one of three different types:

Commutative justice is based on the principle of quid pro quo, which is Latin for this for that. Commutative justice requires, for example, that a customer pay a fair price for worthwhile goods.

Distributive justice involves the relationship between one and many — between an individual and a group — a person and the government, for example.

Social justice concerns the relationships between individuals and groups between one another and everyone. The common good and equal treatment are the cornerstones of social justice.

Temperance is the virtue by which a person uses balance. It’s the good habit that allows a person to relax and have fun without crossing the line and committing sin.

Fortitude is the ability to persevere in times of trial and tribulation — the ability to hang in there when the going gets tough. It’s courage to do the right thing no matter what the cost.

If you feel some moral quandary, check to see what the Charitable thing to do would be. Who benefits and who is hurt. Remember hurt can be subtle or in the future. Does your comfort depend on indebting future generations. Did your stash of ammo come at the expense of others who came to find empty shelves. Did you leave the shelf empty, take the last box or did you leave more than you took.

When you bought your groceries did you give any to the food bank?

Are you doing God's work or just working for yourself.

Worrying about and calling for the Rapture is just working for yourself.

Tim

1hole

08-09-2020, 02:56 PM

Here it is: 1 Thess 4:17 "... we will be caught up.."

Paul wrote that to the church in Thessalonica to a people who feared those who had recently died would miss the coming of the Lord for his people. He wanted to assure them (and, by extension, us) that, dead or alive, no Christian can possibly miss that event. In fact, he stresses that the dead will arise first! Then, we who are alive will also be caught up to join them with the Lord in the air. The physically "caught up" of dead and living believers at that time is the Rapture of the church.

Rapture is simply an untranslated Greek word relating to raptors (meaning birds of prey such as hawks, owls and eagles) swooping down to grasp and carry away the sought objects.

Thus the Rapture of the church (the church is the "body/bride of Christ" and includes all believers) is a totally separate event from the Lord's second coming. The next time is when he will complete his second coming on a white horse, followed by all of us. That second coming is when he'll actually land and establish his one thousand year kingdom on earth.

The millenial (1,000 year) kingdom will end with one last Satanic rebellion.

After the 1K kingdom ends, the Great White Throne will see the resurrection and separation of the few remaining "sheep" of the kingdom age and the vast number of "goats" of all ages. After that there will be a Great White Throne judgement for sentencing the already condemned "goats".

See John 3:16-18 to see who will be rewarded and who will be sentenced. Note there is no reference to a heavenly court to see if anyone has been "good enough" to be saved so fears of not measuring up are misplaced. God measures the heart; get your heart right and everything else will be alright!

Now, this is a very brief overview of my "end times" scenerio; but, is it correct? Well, I think it is but it's not really mine and I sure wouldn't die for it! However, I have studied the questions and many expert's proposed answers for several decades. I don't like loose ends and it's the only view I've yet seen that answers all questions without leaving any loose scriptural strings hanging in unsupported space.

Anyone with web access to Youtube should search for Dr. David Jeremiah's messages on the end times. (And almost anything else! :))

Thundarstick

08-09-2020, 10:13 PM

Thunder Stick

08-10-2020, 08:17 AM

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." - Matthew 25:1-13

Stay woke. Don't be "left behind".

1hole

08-10-2020, 10:42 AM

Are any of these conjectures relevant to how I should live my life? Are answers to these questions going to have an effect on how you live and whom you serve? Personally, I find these wranglings about as useful to MY daily walk with God as "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?". The ONLY thing that matters to me is what I do from day to day. In the end (whenever that may be) my relationship with God through Christ is all that matters! If your not ready, get ready!

To YOU, the coming rapture has no great meaning and staying ready is certainly the proper goal for all of us. But eminence of the sudden call for God's people to "come up here" is exciting and the very thought of it has daily meaning to a lot of us. :)

It was Exile's specific "rapture" questions I addressed and none of what I posted is a daydream, every bit of it is written in God's Book.

Thundarstick

08-10-2020, 10:16 PM

To YOU, the coming rapture has no great meaning and staying ready is certainly the proper goal for all of us. But eminence of the sudden call for God's people to "come up here" is exciting and the very thought of it has daily meaning to a lot of us. :)

It was Exile's specific "rapture" questions I addressed and none of what I posted is a daydream, every bit of it is written in God's Book.

Get ready! Be ready! Stay ready! The scriptures where written to bolster the faith of those who become impatient and disillusioned because Jesus isn't come quick enough to please them. Don't become tired of doing good, keep the faith, fight a good fight, and run the race like there will only be one winner! Peace!

1hole

08-11-2020, 07:32 PM

Get ready! Be ready! Stay ready! The scriptures where written to bolster the faith of those who become impatient and disillusioned because Jesus isn't come quick enough to please them. Don't become tired of doing good, keep the faith, fight a good fight, and run the race like there will only be one winner! Peace!

There you go.

I get (I stay!) a bit excited contemplating the coming Rapture, and have for decades because there are no prophecies left to be fulfilled before it comes but, excited or not, your post is the bottom line for us all isn't it?

I do get frustrated with those who think and teach that only those who are prayed up, confessed up, worked up, paid up will get to go up! Truth is, IF any of us had to be worthy of heaven to get there none of us will ever get there but believers are accorded Jesus' perfect life record. Therefore no true believer is going to be "left behind" at the Rapture because the Son of God has already paid our sin penalty! Thus, regardless of our errors in minor doctrines, all Christians can live and eventually die (physically) in Jesus' perfect peace! I wish everyone knew that. :) <><

dtknowles

08-11-2020, 10:13 PM

There you go.

I get (I stay!) a bit excited contemplating the coming Rapture, and have for decades because there are no prophecies left to be fulfilled before it comes but, excited or not, your post is the bottom line for us all isn't it?

I do get frustrated with those who think and teach that only those who are prayed up, confessed up, worked up, paid up will get to go up! Truth is, IF any of us had to be worthy of heaven to get there none of us will ever get there but believers are accorded Jesus' perfect life record. Therefore no true believer is going to be "left behind" at the Rapture because the Son of God has already paid our sin penalty! Thus, regardless of our errors in minor doctrines, all Christians can live and eventually die (physically) in Jesus' perfect peace! I wish everyone knew that. :) <><

I know you already understand but this is where we differ. "Truth is, IF any of us had to be worthy of heaven to get there none of us will ever get there" I disagree, God can tell who of us is worthy, God know our deepest secrets and the depth of our love for our brothers and sisters. On this will we be judged. We can be worthy of heaven but is hard.

On this we will agree, "no true believer is going to be left behind" a true believer will have a deep and abiding love for his sisters and brothers.

Tim

dannyd

08-11-2020, 11:39 PM

Yes, because I may be Raptured tonight. Always be prepared.

1hole

08-12-2020, 10:05 AM

Anyone going to God's perfect heaven has to have a perfect, totally sin free life record but only ONE man has ever accomplished that. Therefore, in order to get to heaven, all imperfect men must be accorded that one man's perfect life record or perish.

Anyone can "believe" what he wishes about earning his own salvation but a "good works" based life, i.e., lived as imperfectly self-righteous as the scribes and pharisees of Jesus' day, won't get anyone anywhere with God because all our works are as filthy rags before Him and it's not arguable (Isa 64:6; Rom 3:19-25; 6:23; 10:2-4; Eph 2:8-9) THAT'S exactly why Jesus sacrificed himself in our stead! In doing that, a loving Jesus purchased our salvation and presents it to us as an unearned gift. Therefore, if we are saved at all, we are granted - gifted - a pure salvation based entirely on what HE has done for us. Any good things we may do in life are simply our love gifts back to him and we are NOT "earning" our salvation!

Bottomline, if men could possibly earn salvation there would have been no reason for Jesus to go to the Cross. Anyone saying salvation might be earned by doing good stuff diminishes the cost of Jesus' blood bought gift and demeans his suffering for us. Spiritually, following the path of our own "good works" are ego driven bad news and it leads proud men down the meandering broad road of life into the roaring gates of hell (Mat 7:13-14).

None of that's my idea, it's all clearly written in the Book.

ioon44

08-13-2020, 09:09 AM

Right on, good post it is all about Jesus and what he has done for us that we can not do for our selves'.

"All my hope is based on nothing less than Jesus Blood and Righteous."

dtknowles

08-13-2020, 10:25 AM

Right on, good post it is all about Jesus and what he has done for us that we can not do for our selves'.

"All my hope is based on nothing less than Jesus Blood and Righteous."

All your hope is based on the Bible you use being true.

Tim

dtknowles

08-13-2020, 10:26 AM

ioon44

08-13-2020, 11:46 AM

All your hope is based on the Bible you use being true.

Tim

Absolutely, What do place your hope in?

dannyd

08-13-2020, 12:48 PM

All your hope is based on the Bible you use being true.

Tim

Every word in the KJV is true so I'm good come on Rapture. To quote other individuals.

Not Looking for a hole in the looking for hole in the Air. Not Looking for the Undertaker Looking for the Uptaker. Helps me in to Sleep Good at Night. Just feels good writing it. :)

dtknowles

08-13-2020, 03:53 PM

Absolutely, What do place your hope in?

I place my hope in God.

Tim

ioon44

08-13-2020, 04:03 PM

I place my hope in God.

Tim

Which God?

1hole

08-13-2020, 08:41 PM

I know you already understand but this is where we differ. "Truth is, IF any of us had to be worthy of heaven to get there none of us will ever get there" I disagree,...

We disagree on that and a lot more than that. But, basically, you choose to agree with yourself and I chose to agree with scripture. ??? Only one of us can be right.

.... God can tell who of us is worthy.

He sure can! And God has said that none of us are worthy of heaven. But then I don't know which god you trust! I trust the One who says Jesus is the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6) and has written that all of our self righteousness - the very self righteousness you profess for yourself - is as filthy rags before Him (Isa 64:6; Rom 3:10). God tells us there is one narrow way and one name to access heaven but you wrongly seek to convince people that there are many ways and a wide path to heaven, and you "know" all that because you're really smart and have it all figured out (John 14:6; Act 4:12). Sadly, you know very much but you understand very little.

... On this will we be judged. We can be worthy of heaven but is hard.

Wrong. YOU say "we can be worthy of heaven" but God says we cannot, it's much worse than hard and He knows it. So, in his love, God provided a worthy substitute to pay sin's cost for those who would totally trust in his son, the Lord Jesus, as saviour. I do, all Christians do. But you do not; instead you're trusting in your self righteousness and expect God to see things your way instead of his way. Good luck with that.

On this we will agree, "no true believer is going to be left behind" a true believer will have a deep and abiding love for his sisters and brothers.

You don't understand that "a true believer" is one who believes in loving God in the Biblical way and that is what produces the good works and love you're hoping will get you into heaven - it won't.

Biblical "belief" includes trusting in, clinging to and submitting to the one believed in. But, you believe in an alphabet soup of gods, not Jesus, so you've chosen the wide path that leads to hell. I don't know you so I'll take your word for how deeply you love others but I know you only have a head knowledge belief in God and reject the rest. Therefore, you only have a comfortable religion and a wimpy god (Mat 7:21-23).

You think you grasp it all better than anyone else but you do not. Instead, you have fallen into Adam's original-ego driven sin-trap of choosing to be your own God and deciding for yourself what is good and evil, i.e., what is right and wrong. That's sad for you and it didn't work out very well for Adam either.

dannyd

08-13-2020, 09:44 PM

THE SEVEN DISPENSATIONS
1. Man innocent.
2. Man under conscience.
3. Man in authority over the earth.
4. Man under promise.
5. Man under law.
6. Man under grace.
7. Man under the personal reign of Christ.

We are in No 6 Saved by Grace and will be Raptured out before No 7 ether by Death or we will be called by the Trump of God.

The first 5 show the failure of man.

It's great to live in the age of Grace.

Sleep tight it may come tonight.

dtknowles

08-13-2020, 11:46 PM

Which God?

There is but one God. The creator of all that is.

Tim

dtknowles

08-13-2020, 11:52 PM

We disagree on that and a lot more than that. But, basically, you choose to agree with yourself and I chose to agree with scripture. ??? Only one of us can be right.

He sure can! And God has said that none of us are worthy of heaven. But then I don't know which god you trust! I trust the One who says Jesus is the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6) and has written that all of our self righteousness - the very self righteousness you profess for yourself - is as filthy rags before Him (Isa 64:6; Rom 3:10). God tells us there is one narrow way and one name to access heaven but you wrongly seek to convince people that there are many ways and a wide path to heaven, and you "know" all that because you're really smart and have it all figured out (John 14:6; Act 4:12). Sadly, you know very much but you understand very little.

Wrong. YOU say "we can be worthy of heaven" but God says we cannot, it's much worse than hard and He knows it. So, in his love, God provided a worthy substitute to pay sin's cost for those who would totally trust in his son, the Lord Jesus, as saviour. I do, all Christians do. But you do not; instead you're trusting in your self righteousness and expect God to see things your way instead of his way. Good luck with that.

You don't understand that "a true believer" is one who believes in loving God in the Biblical way and that is what produces the good works and love you're hoping will get you into heaven - it won't.

Biblical "belief" includes trusting in, clinging to and submitting to the one believed in. But, you believe in an alphabet soup of gods, not Jesus, so you've chosen the wide path that leads to hell. I don't know you so I'll take your word for how deeply you love others but I know you only have a head knowledge belief in God and reject the rest. Therefore, you only have a comfortable religion and a wimpy god (Mat 7:21-23).

You think you grasp it all better than anyone else but you do not. Instead, you have fallen into Adam's original-ego driven sin-trap of choosing to be your own God and deciding for yourself what is good and evil, i.e., what is right and wrong. That's sad for you and it didn't work out very well for Adam either.

I don't expect God to see things my way. God will see like God always does, God sees all, we can hide nothing from God. If God does not save me because I am not worthy then so be it.

Tim

Thundarstick

08-14-2020, 05:35 AM

I don't expect God to see things my way. God will see like God always does, God sees all, we can hide nothing from God. If God does not save me because I am not worthy then so be it.

Tim
If your not saved, it'll be because you didn't follow God's son and submit to his teachings (just like any of us). That, and being a false teacher. Subverting others away from the path of salvation.
We should ALL be extremely mindful of what we teach, as we WILL be held to account for it!

1hole

08-14-2020, 08:53 AM

I don't expect God to see things my way.... If God does not save me because I am not worthy then so be it.

Sooo ... you don't expect God to see things your way ... but if He doesn't see things your way then He can kiss off and He will have to live eternally deprived of yourself? We know you believe you're worth being saved as due payment for what you do and have therefore earned your hoped for salvation but you haven't told us WHY you think you are so worthy! ??

Tim, your inflated ego and self importance is driving you to death because I think God can handle your loss but you'll fry apart from Him. You most certainly know heaven or hell is your own eternal choice, not His; so be it (John 3:17/18).

Yeah Tim, I know you don't bother to check the scriptures I often submit but I have to do it because otherwise we'd just be swapping "I believe this but not that" arrogant nonsense.

dtknowles

08-14-2020, 04:13 PM

If your not saved, it'll be because you didn't follow God's son and submit to his teachings (just like any of us). That, and being a false teacher. Subverting others away from the path of salvation.
We should ALL be extremely mindful of what we teach, as we WILL be held to account for it!

Yes, we all should. Be careful what bible you teach or even careful about teaching the bible. It was written by men, if you believe it is the only words of God, you are probably mistaken. If I am not saved it could be for any number of reasons most of which have nothing to do with Jesus.

Tim

dtknowles

08-14-2020, 04:15 PM

Sooo ... you don't expect God to see things your way ... but if He doesn't see things your way then He can kiss off and He will have to live eternally deprived of yourself? We know you believe you're worth being saved as due payment for what you do and have therefore earned your hoped for salvation but you haven't told us WHY you think you are so worthy! ??

Tim, your inflated ego and self importance is driving you to death because I think God can handle your loss but you'll fry apart from Him. You most certainly know heaven or hell is your own eternal choice, not His; so be it (John 3:17/18).

Yeah Tim, I know you don't bother to check the scriptures I often submit but I have to do it because otherwise we'd just be swapping "I believe this but not that" arrogant nonsense.

Preaching to me from the bible only means to me that you believe the bible. Me, not so much, bible verses rarely change my beliefs.

Tim

1hole

08-14-2020, 07:25 PM

Preaching to me from the bible only means to me that you believe the bible. Me, not so much, bible verses rarely change my beliefs.

Yes, we know, nothing shakes your deep spiritual belief in yourself. Good luck.

dannyd

08-14-2020, 10:33 PM

I don't expect God to see things my way. God will see like God always does, God sees all, we can hide nothing from God. If God does not save me because I am not worthy then so be it.

Tim

None of us are worthy of being saved that's why Jesus died on the cross. It's his free gift to us for believing, realizing we are sinner and ask for forgiveness. My opinion, there as been many a man walk from their cell to Angola's (Louisiana State Penitentiary) death house and been saved on the way just like the thief on the cross got to go to Paradise. They were saved because like the thief they had a true repetitive heart.

Dieselhorses

08-15-2020, 02:36 PM

we disagree on that and a lot more than that. But, basically, you choose to agree with yourself and i chose to agree with scripture. ??? Only one of us can be right.

He sure can! And god has said that none of us are worthy of heaven. But then i don't know which god you trust! I trust the one who says jesus is the way, the truth and the life" (john 14:6) and has written that all of our self righteousness - the very self righteousness you profess for yourself - is as filthy rags before him (isa 64:6; rom 3:10). God tells us there is one narrow way and one name to access heaven but you wrongly seek to convince people that there are many ways and a wide path to heaven, and you "know" all that because you're really smart and have it all figured out (john 14:6; act 4:12). Sadly, you know very much but you understand very little.

Wrong. You say "we can be worthy of heaven" but god says we cannot, it's much worse than hard and he knows it. So, in his love, god provided a worthy substitute to pay sin's cost for those who would totally trust in his son, the lord jesus, as saviour. I do, all christians do. But you do not; instead you're trusting in your self righteousness and expect god to see things your way instead of his way. Good luck with that.

You don't understand that "a true believer" is one who believes in loving god in the biblical way and that is what produces the good works and love you're hoping will get you into heaven - it won't.

Biblical "belief" includes trusting in, clinging to and submitting to the one believed in. But, you believe in an alphabet soup of gods, not jesus, so you've chosen the wide path that leads to hell. I don't know you so i'll take your word for how deeply you love others but i know you only have a head knowledge belief in god and reject the rest. Therefore, you only have a comfortable religion and a wimpy god (mat 7:21-23).

You think you grasp it all better than anyone else but you do not. Instead, you have fallen into adam's original-ego driven sin-trap of choosing to be your own god and deciding for yourself what is good and evil, i.e., what is right and wrong. That's sad for you and it didn't work out very well for adam either.

amen!

frkelly74

08-15-2020, 02:47 PM

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth just as in Heaven.

dtknowles

08-15-2020, 05:59 PM

None of us are worthy of being saved that's why Jesus died on the cross. It's his free gift to us for believing, realizing we are sinner and ask for forgiveness. My opinion, there as been many a man walk from their cell to Angola's (Louisiana State Penitentiary) death house and been saved on the way just like the thief on the cross got to go to Paradise. They were saved because like the thief they had a true repetitive heart.

Repent and be saved, yes.

Jesus is just a character in a book. It is not his death that matters it is message to love one another that matters. Love your fellow humans, repent your sins and be saved.

Tim

dtknowles

08-15-2020, 06:12 PM

Yes, we know, nothing shakes your deep spiritual belief in yourself. Good luck.

This is not about me. This is about saving those that need to repent their evil, hateful, unloving ways. I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved. Those that do not take it to heart will not be saved.

When Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I believe he means that you must act toward your fellow humans as he has shown, believing Jesus is God is not what saves you, heeding his message is what saves you. it is not about the man it is about the message. The message is right even if Jesus was never born. The Bibles could be total fiction but the message would still be valid. Weigh you conscience against what Jesus would do, if you do not regret every time you did not do as Jesus would have done even if it meant your death then you might not be saved. If you would not die so that others would be saved, how could you be saved.

Tim

dannyd

08-15-2020, 06:12 PM

Repent and be saved, yes.

Jesus is just a character in a book. It is not his death that matters it is message to love one another that matters. Love your fellow humans, repent your sins and be saved.

Tim

That's your opinion and that's fine before long we will both know the answer.

dtknowles

08-15-2020, 07:39 PM

That's your opinion and that's fine before long we will both know the answer.

I am not sure we will know the answer but before long it will no longer matter. If we are wrong, I doubt God is going to explain and if we are wrong I don't think there will be anything to explain it too.

Tim

dannyd

08-15-2020, 07:58 PM

I am not sure we will know the answer but before long it will no longer matter. If we are wrong, I doubt God is going to explain and if we are wrong I don't think there will be anything to explain it too.

Tim

Time will tell.

Dieselhorses

08-16-2020, 01:36 PM

This is not about me. This is about saving those that need to repent their evil, hateful, unloving ways. I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved. Those that do not take it to heart will not be saved.

When Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I believe he means that you must act toward your fellow humans as he has shown, believing Jesus is God is not what saves you, heeding his message is what saves you. it is not about the man it is about the message. The message is right even if Jesus was never born. The Bibles could be total fiction but the message would still be valid. Weigh you conscience against what Jesus would do, if you do not regret every time you did not do as Jesus would have done even if it meant your death then you might not be saved. If you would not die so that others would be saved, how could you be saved.

Tim

Why you say...
I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved.? When you believe that Jesus was a fictitious character?

dtknowles

08-16-2020, 03:06 PM

Why you say...? When you believe that Jesus was a fictitious character?

I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved. First because I think it is right. I also think if you act in concert with Jesus' teachings even if you never heard of Jesus or even if you don't believe in Jesus, you will be saved.

I never said I was sure Jesus is a fictitious character I have said I think it is likely the Jesus portrayed in the new testament is a tall tale, exaggerated and it could be Jesus was never born.

What Jesus taught, to love one another, is not a message unique to Jesus. It is a self-evident truth. To not love all of God's creations is to be evil.

Good Christians will be saved, bad Christians will not be saved.

Tim

dtknowles

08-16-2020, 04:09 PM

So if you don't believe Jesus is the son of God, how can you be a Christian at all, more less a good one

I am not a Christian. I don't believe you have to be Christian to be saved. I believe you only need to be good to be saved, Christian or not.

Tim

1hole

08-16-2020, 04:20 PM

I am not a Christian. I don't believe you have to be Christian to be saved. I believe you only need to be good to be saved, Christian or not.

If you don't believe men must be Christians (meaning followers of the Lord Christ Jesus) to be saved then what do you think men need to be saved from ... and too? And on who, or on what, do you base YOUR beliefs and suggest others follow?

dtknowles

08-16-2020, 05:10 PM

If you don't believe men must be Christians (meaning followers of the Lord Christ Jesus) to be saved then what do you think men need to be saved from ... and too? And on who, or on what, do you base YOUR beliefs and suggest others follow?

It was right there in the post before yours. "I am not a Christian. I don't believe you have to be Christian to be saved. I believe you only need to be good to be saved, Christian or not."

It is not just men who are saved it is women too. Saved is what God does when good people die. I don't know what that is but I am certain it is better than not being saved. My beliefs are based on my experience, conscience and education. I have lived, read, and learned a lot. Somethings are obvious when you take a broader view of the universe.

I suggest everyone do the right thing, be good don't be evil. Follow the 7 Cardinal Virtues and avoid the 7 Deadly Sins. Follow the Golden Rule. Obey the 5th thru the 10th biblical commandments. Make the world a better place while you are here. If you do something wrong, make it right. Be a good Samaritan. Help the poor and disadvantaged. Try to help other people smile. Give comfort to those who are hurting.

Don't be a jerk.

Tim

Dieselhorses

08-16-2020, 06:44 PM

I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved. First because I think it is right. I also think if you act in concert with Jesus' teachings even if you never heard of Jesus or even if you don't believe in Jesus, you will be saved.

I never said I was sure Jesus is a fictitious character I have said I think it is likely the Jesus portrayed in the new testament is a tall tale, exaggerated and it could be Jesus was never born.

What Jesus taught, to love one another, is not a message unique to Jesus. It is a self-evident truth. To not love all of God's creations is to be evil.

Good Christians will be saved, bad Christians will not be saved.

Tim

Repent and be saved, yes.

Jesus is just a character in a book. It is not his death that matters it is message to love one another that matters. Love your fellow humans, repent your sins and be saved.

Tim

Yes, we are supposed to love our fellow man and do unto them as we would have done unto us, but that isn't what saves us. Yes, the Bible says "we will be judged according to our works" but that is referring to the rewards we will receive in Heaven. Not arguing the "Spirits", just saying what I learned since I was young. There was a time when thought exactly as you believe now. Then God made himself "real" in my life, touched my heart and I felt His love, mercy, grace and forgiveness all at one time. It was pretty overwhelming (in a good way!) But it was done HIS way, not the way anybody around depicted Him and in His time. And Jesus's death did matter. If it didn't then there would be NO Salvation. He was the ultimate sacrifice and this was the only way to cover the sins of all mankind-both then, now and forever. The resurrection of Jesus was necessary to fulfill God's promise.

1hole

08-16-2020, 07:46 PM

It was right there in the post before yours. "I am not a Christian. I don't believe you have to be Christian to be saved. I believe you only need to be good to be saved, Christian or not."

But my question was, and remains, to what and from what do you think people will be saved? And what evidence do you base your nebulous beliefs on?

dtknowles

08-16-2020, 11:08 PM

But my question was, and remains, to what and from what do you think people will be saved? And what evidence do you base your nebulous beliefs on?

I don't know to what or from what people will be saved. Saved is just the expression some people, mainly Christians use. I believe that when our mortal bodies perish, God will have a plan, a use maybe for some of us. I believe God will have a use for those of us who are good. If you are not good maybe your soul dies with your body or maybe you are reincarnated. Even the Bible is not clear on what comes after the death of our bodies.

Tim

dtknowles

08-16-2020, 11:24 PM

Yes, we are supposed to love our fellow man and do unto them as we would have done unto us, but that isn't what saves us. Yes, the Bible says "we will be judged according to our works" but that is referring to the rewards we will receive in Heaven. Not arguing the "Spirits", just saying what I learned since I was young. There was a time when thought exactly as you believe now. Then God made himself "real" in my life, touched my heart and I felt His love, mercy, grace and forgiveness all at one time. It was pretty overwhelming (in a good way!) But it was done HIS way, not the way anybody around depicted Him and in His time. And Jesus's death did matter. If it didn't then there would be NO Salvation. He was the ultimate sacrifice and this was the only way to cover the sins of all mankind-both then, now and forever. The resurrection of Jesus was necessary to fulfill God's promise.

I am glad you found your way. It might not be the same for others. There might not be just one way.

Tim

Thundarstick

08-17-2020, 08:24 AM

There might not be just one way.

Tim It's just as likely there might be just one way.

1hole

08-17-2020, 08:42 AM

It's just as likely there might be just one way.

Well noted. In this "what if ... ", stuff it seems some never admit their stance just may be a double edge sword. Oh well, determined self righteousness has no limits does it? Okay, yes, it does have one eternal limit and it's not a challenge or fun.

Thunder Stick

08-17-2020, 09:42 AM

I don't know to what or from what people will be saved. Saved is just the expression some people, mainly Christians use. I believe that when our mortal bodies perish, God will have a plan, a use maybe for some of us. I believe God will have a use for those of us who are good. If you are not good maybe your soul dies with your body or maybe you are reincarnated. Even the Bible is not clear on what comes after the death of our bodies.

Tim

Hi Tim!

My words mean nothing. But the Bible tells us that being good is no help. For there is no one who is good...

Romans 3:12

All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

Then what hope is there for us? We are justified freely by the grace* of Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

*Grace - God's Riches At Christ's Expense

Salvation is a free gift from God. It is not earned and there is no sliding scale of one person was more or less good than another. That would be a salvation by works. You see, Christianity is unique among all faiths. In every human religion, one must "do" something in order to obtain a reward. It is works based salvation. In Christianity it is "done" for you by Christ because He is the only one who was good among all mankind. But being our kinsman, fully human and fully God, he is our kinsman redeemer. He paid the price for our sins. We are reconciled to God through Christ alone. It is the free gift of a loving God. Gifts are not earned.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

1hole

08-17-2020, 12:21 PM

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

And that IS the gospel, i.e., the Good News of salvation is from God, not from self righteousness, lest any man should boast (Titus 3:5-7).

Virtually ALL of the (many) self righteous people I've ever met expect to "earn" their free gift and usually like to tell everyone about how many good things they do! When their error is shown they often say something like, "Well, I'm doing the best I can and if God isn't satisfied with that, so be it." They just don't get the wonderful point of the gospel so they can never know the peace of God; that's truly sad.

dannyd

08-17-2020, 01:10 PM

That's why I don't understand why more Liberals aren't saved. They will usually take anything that free.

Thunder Stick

08-17-2020, 01:44 PM

That's why I don't understand why more Liberals aren't saved. They will usually take anything that free.

LOL! :lol:

Dieselhorses

08-18-2020, 12:24 PM

That's why I don't understand why more Liberals aren't saved. They will usually take anything that free.

^^^That's classic!^^^

Dieselhorses

08-18-2020, 12:47 PM

266387

dtknowles

08-18-2020, 09:27 PM

It's just as likely there might be just one way.

If there were just one way then only one person would be saved.

There are certainly many ways but there could be a common trait, like love of Jesus and acceptance of him as your savior. I don't believe that is the case but others do. To each his own. I respect most people's beliefs. I think Buddhists, Muslims, Hindi, etc. are saved as well as Christians.

Tim

ioon44

08-19-2020, 08:32 AM

John ch 14 v 6.

1hole

08-19-2020, 08:50 AM

To each his own.

Sounds nice. But .... when the hazards are real, the failure to warn isn't nice, it's deadly neglect.

I respect most people's beliefs. I think Buddhists, Muslims, Hindi, etc. are saved as well as Christians.

You "respect" deadly error? That's sweet but it's hardly as wonderful as you seem to "think". God's heaven and hell are real, not day dreams. I respect everyone so much that I'm not indifferent to their spiritual mistakes and cry out to them in warning!

As a "highly eddicated liberal" locked in an empty spiritual world it seems you still can't grasp that Christians can - and do - respect other people without also believing we can "think" them into God's own salvation.

Christians speak for God's truth but, unlike you, we don't try to think for God.

It should be obvious even to you that God doesn't care what you think about who He is or what his salvation is. And he sure ain't Allah, et al.

exile

08-25-2021, 03:01 PM

"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (E.S.V.)

exile

Bloodman14

08-25-2021, 03:37 PM

I wanted to let all of you know that I have been paying rapt attention to this and a few other threads. I have not been in church for YEARS but have had a minor(?) relationship with God for all my life (at least since the age of accountability). Recent world events have re-awakened my interest in the end times, concerning timelines and such. Several of my questions have been answered, and the explanations have given me some comfort. I thank all of you for your comments and input.
God Bless.

dannyd

08-25-2021, 04:38 PM

It’s great to be Rapture Ready :)

Looking for the Uptaker not the Undertaker.

Spell checker: uptaker is not one word but undertaker is; guess we know how the World sees it.

Combatmedic63

01-05-2022, 05:45 PM

Maranatha Believer here! I'm definitely ready for the rapture and to leave this terrible world.

exile

01-13-2022, 05:33 PM

"Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him."

Genesis 5:24 (E.S.V.)

exile

Good Cheer

01-22-2022, 06:07 AM

Anyone familiar with Dave MacPherson's works concerning the origins of the pre-tribulation rapture theory?

augercreek

01-22-2022, 07:37 AM

Check out Johnathan Cahns' you tube videos. I believe his teachings will clarify some issues here.

Good Cheer

01-23-2022, 01:04 PM

2Thessalonians
Does it matter who's right about the theory as long as you were chosen from the beginning?
As long as you aren't deluded and believe the lie?

Good Cheer

01-24-2022, 07:58 AM

Anyone familiar with Dave MacPherson's works concerning the origins of the pre-tribulation rapture theory?

The ones I've kept are The Incredible Cover-Up and The Rapture Plot.

1hole

01-24-2022, 09:28 PM

The ones I've kept are The Incredible Cover-Up and The Rapture Plot.

Anyone wanting to get a glimpse of the when/where/why the pretrib rapture "plot" got started needs to read and understand 1 Thess 4.

Good Cheer

01-25-2022, 10:11 AM

Yeah, that's about it. Those who have already died rise first.
Then after that is when those few of us who are still in these meat suits are changed.
When that resurrection of the dead happens is really cut and dried but the many people twisting scripture to make it fit their needs are not going to put down their torque wrenches. With that in mind it would seem the best thing to do is to set the argument aside and pray they don't worship the first christ that shows up.

Fact of the matter is it's a lot more fun to discuss the birthing of the beast system any how. The system comes first and that rascal is getting ready to burst forth from Kane's chest before we know it.

1hole

01-25-2022, 12:04 PM

My "cut and paste" is broken so I'll use exile's Thess. post to give a brief pretribulation defense:

"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Paul had told the church at Thessalonica about the coming Rapture. They accepted the Rapture teaching but members of their group were dying and the living began to fear the already dead were going to miss out. Paul heard about their fear and wrote this second letter to them partly to correct that mistake in their expectations; i.e., Paul told them the dead in Christ will rise first and that information was comforting!

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

This is the Rapture, meaning it's an event to snatch up believers and it seems to occur pre-tribulation - it's a "SURPRISE!" event. Note that there is NOT a word about Christ coming all the way down here to set up his 1,000 year Kingdom on earth at the time, itonly says that believers - the Church - will be called UP into the heavens to be with Him.

The common idea that the Rapture and so called "End of Time as we Know It" is the same event is CLEARLY NOT TRUE!

Time wise, the broad historical sequence the Bible gives us is: Rapture; 7 Years of Tribulation/Great Tribulation; Return of the Lord; 1,000 Kingdom; release of Satan and his final war; seperation of sheep and goats and the Great White Throne Judgements; eternity! Thus, there will be not less than 1,007 years between the Rapture and the final - second death - judgements.

Finally, it's not knowing too much about end times that causes confusion. Confusion is caused by ignorance of the truth and ignorance is caused by too little personal study; seems people who actually know something about Bible prophecy are much less likely to swallow a load of religious B.S. from some half-baked end-times goofus.

Johnny Diamond

01-25-2022, 12:52 PM

1hole, I concur wholeheartedly, and see NO need to add or take away!
Johnny.

FINEM RESPICE ~ MEMENTO MORI

Good Cheer

01-26-2022, 11:41 AM

Anyone wanting to get a glimpse of the when/where/why the pretrib rapture "plot" got started needs to read and understand 1 Thess 4.

After a few decades of looking at the different theories I've decided that it is divisiveness, that not one of the rapture theories is unambiguously supported by scripture, that the diehard proponents of each theory refuse to relinquish their torque wrenches, that whatever happens is going to be His way and that the toes on my meat suit will likely curl up first.

1hole

01-26-2022, 12:59 PM

After a few decades of looking at the different theories I've decided that it is divisiveness, that not one of the rapture theories is unambiguously supported by scripture, ....

You're right that the doctrines of eschatology are not neatly gathered in one small place to simplify it for casual examination by casual people and without study. In fact, that's what Biblical "study" is about as Paul put it to Timothy (2 Tim 5:15) and, by extension, to the rest of us. If all understanding was childishly easy it wouldn't require much "study" at all ... but we are grown ups and study is exactly what we are told to do!

Division comes when one child disagrees with another without a firm foundation. Forcefully proclaiming, "I believe thus and so..." without accurate Biblical support is childish.

... that the diehard proponents of each theory refuse to relinquish their torque wrenches, that whatever happens is going to be His way ...

Doctrinal positions often get established by denominational traditions and/or some established firmly "prophet", often totally devoid of any significant Bible support. Left unchallenged a traditional theory becomes "truth" to its unquestioning followers. THAT is why the religious Jews of Jesus' day rejected their Messiah and THAT was, and still is about a lot of other details, a meaningful mistake!

Thing is, a lot of ideas can be formed on isolated bits of scripture but wrong ideas always leave stray bits that just don't fit the theory. WHEN WE FINALLY GET IT RIGHT ALL OF THE BIBLICAL DATA MUST FIT WITHOUT FORCE! It's taken me decades of study to get my beliefs loose strings to fit together properly.

Good Cheer

01-26-2022, 03:07 PM

1hole,
As you are aware I'm not a devotee of pretrib rapture theory. You are and I don't have a problem with that.

1hole

01-26-2022, 07:56 PM

1hole,
As you are aware I'm not a devotee of pretrib rapture theory.

I gave a short but focused response to the rapture issue as Paul discussed it in 2 Thess. Now you tell me you're not a devotee of pretrib rapture but you don't say a thing about WHY you're not a pretriib "devotee", OR anything at all about what you do think about the rapture. So, okay, you disagree with me but we already knew that. But, knowing no more about your rapture belief than you disagree with me really doesn't advance your no doubt sincerely held point of view an inch does it?

You are and I don't have a problem with that.

Do we have "a problem"? Heavens no!

Cheer, I believe you're a blood bought brother in Christ. So, even with your obvious theological imperfections (;)), I would be delighted to share a lengthy huntin', fishin' or Christian mission trip with you.

I fully agree that nothing about theological disagreements with anyone here should or ever would be personally offensive to me.

If respectful and friendly doctrinal disagreements, even while strongly searching for answers, were impossible very few of us would have many church friends. (I have a lot of church friends and I suspect you do too!) Now I ask:

1) What do you believe is the biggest error to a pretrib rapture?
2) What scripture(s) do you base your belief on?

Good Cheer

01-27-2022, 06:08 AM

I'm not playing with your wrench.
We need to be ready for when we meet Him.

Lloyd Smale

01-27-2022, 06:19 AM

when one trys to tell me how God thinks and has to use big words and fancy talk. I tend to avoid it. God is much more simple then that. I always got a kick out of bible experts preaching on a gun forum. In my opinion it should even be allowed. If you want to argue scripture go to a bible fourm or your preacher. Problem with that is most that post on gun fourm would get burried by someone that really knows. Thats why there here.

Good Cheer

01-27-2022, 07:50 AM

I like it because I'm a happy clinger.:guntootsmiley:

1hole

01-27-2022, 09:20 PM

... I always got a kick out of bible experts preaching on a gun forum. In my opinion it should even be allowed. If you want to argue scripture go to a bible fourm or your preacher.

Lloyd, if I can follow all that correctly, and IF the "Deep Theology" label on this forum is correct, and if the label with "The Rapture" on this thread tells you anything at all it seems you should know we have done exactly what you have taken the time to suggest.

What puzzles me is why you seem to feel compelled to read and make negative comments on forums, threads, people and topics you profess to object to. It's really easy for people like you to avoid people like us.

You don't even need an "Ignore" feature to prevent yourself from reading anything we post and we won't be offended if you don't. In due respect for your deeply held religious sensitivities, why don't you try that? :)

Kosh75287

01-27-2022, 09:39 PM

Are you SERIOUS?!? I'M not even ready for the rush-hour TRAFFIC that I must face in the morning!
RAPTURE?!?! You want me to ponder the deeper metaphysical and theological implications of the world suddenly ending, while I'M still trying to figure out what makes TEFLON stick to FRYING PANS!?! No more, I BEG YOU!

1hole

01-27-2022, 10:38 PM

But Kosh, the Rapture of believers is easy. And heaven will be much better for blood bought Christians than most people understand; that's why I LOVE to talk about it!

The next prophetic event in the Bible is the "Surprise guys, here I am!" rapture. Right then, both "dead" and living Christians get remade and we'll finally be really alive, then, in the twinkling of an eye, we'll all be "caught up" (raptured) and leave to be with Jesus in heaven for at least seven years. During that time nothing that happens back on Earth will have any impact on us.

(After the seven years of Tribulation will be the second coming of the Lord, him along with us, all wearing white choir robes and riding on white horses, to set up His 1,000 year kingdom on earth!)

That's it buddy, that's the sum total of the Rapture to the end in a nutshell. And I do look forward to it!. :)

.429&H110

01-28-2022, 12:00 AM

Don't miss the Boat:
You might sit on the dock waiting for the Boat, and argue with the crowd on the dock about what the Boat will look like or who can get on it. You could sit on the dock and read the Book about the Boat. For me, I want to go find those who might miss the Boat, time is short to reach people who don't know about Jesus, so they can choose or be chosen. I believe the Lord's arrival will settle all doubts and fears. Forever. Soon.

Even so, Lord Jesus come quickly. Amen.

Rfeustel

01-28-2022, 12:16 AM

After a few decades of looking at the different theories I've decided that it is divisiveness, that not one of the rapture theories is unambiguously supported by scripture, that the diehard proponents of each theory refuse to relinquish their torque wrenches, that whatever happens is going to be His way and that the toes on my meat suit will likely curl up first.

GC: I kind of got to the same place. I find it fascinating how our adversary can create division over topics of debate within the Church (ala Screwtape Letters kind of stuff). Pre, Mid, Post has split churches.

Lloyd Smale

01-28-2022, 06:34 AM

Lloyd, if I can follow all that correctly, and IF the "Deep Theology" label on this forum is correct, and if the label with "The Rapture" on this thread tells you anything at all it seems you should know we have done exactly what you have taken the time to suggest.

What puzzles me is why you seem to feel compelled to read and make negative comments on forums, threads, people and topics you profess to object to. It's really easy for people like you to avoid people like us.

You don't even need an "Ignore" feature to prevent yourself from reading anything we post and we won't be offended if you don't. In due respect for your deeply held religious sensitivities, why don't you try that? :)

because as long as i stick by the rules i can post my opinion. EVEN if it contridicts yours. there are moderators here that determine if my posts break rules. Not self appointed forum police. Want my real opinion. Ive been on this site since its inception. For at least half of that time NOBODY talked religion or even politics. It was about casting bullets. Boggles my mind that someone would even come to a cast bullet forum and want to talk religion. Theres hundreds of religion sites you can post on and argue your belief that your right and someone else is wrong. What ive found is on about any gun site that allows religion to be talked about is it doesnt nothing but cause bad feelings. Most of the time posts are from people who come here because theyd get ate for lunch on a forum where people actually knew and studied the bible. So dont judge me unless you want to be judged. But i believe the bible says theres only ONE judge. But if i broke a rule feel free to contact a moderator. Maybe im wrong and have broke some rule (forum rule not your rule) i have done it in the past. But until i do break a rule please dont tell me what i can read and what i can reply to,

Good Cheer

01-28-2022, 06:46 AM

GC: I kind of got to the same place. I find it fascinating how our adversary can create division over topics of debate within the Church (ala Screwtape Letters kind of stuff). Pre, Mid, Post has split churches.

Uh oh. Went to my semi-annual check up yesterday.
Blood pressure is great, cholesterol is great...
Might live longer than I thought.

You know Rfeustel, there are so many wonderfully amazing aspects and happenings in this reality that others call a religion, so much we can discuss and enjoy without butting heads over where in the chain of events we'll see Jesus face to face. Yeah, we shouldn't concentrate on something that's so custom made to order for driving a wedge. But, that's my opinion and that said, I'm bowing out of this thread because obviously it was started with pretrib rapture acceptance as baseline.

1hole

01-28-2022, 11:52 AM

because as long as i stick by the rules i can post my opinion.

Lloyd, I don't know what you're objecting to. Note that I didn't even hint you not post anything you wish, I only suggested you not read posts you object to if they bring you pain. Rules or no rules, your strongly worded objections to posts on this site's clearly labeled religious forum seems to be a bit overbearing. :)

Ive been on this site since its inception.

Ah. Perhaps we've gotten to the real basis of your presumptions!

Actually, I've been here quite awhile myself but I've never presumed my date of enlistment grants me any automatic stature over newer guys.

For at least half of that time NOBODY talked religion or even politics. It was about casting bullets.

Okay. Do you feel the site managers have allowed topics that are too far outside your comfort range? If so, the genie is really out of the bottle now so what do you think they should do?

Boggles my mind that someone would even come to a cast bullet forum and want to talk religion. Theres hundreds of religion sites you can post on...

Some minds are more easily boggled than others but the clear path to you not seeing religion threads at all is still before us.

But until i do break a rule please dont tell me what i can read and what i can reply to,

Fully agree. And, ditto to you. :2_high5:

Hoping you have a very nice day.....

1hole

01-28-2022, 02:36 PM

Don't miss the Boat: You might sit on the dock waiting for the Boat, and argue with the crowd on the dock about what the Boat will look like or who can get on it. You could sit on the dock and read the Book about the Boat.

I may be wrong but I believe everyone seriously interested in the Boat is already in it.

For me, I want to go find those who might miss the Boat, time is short to reach people who don't know about Jesus, so they can choose or be chosen.

Time is indeed short and your's is a common hope but it has to ignore that each day far more people die going to hell than to heaven. Therefore, I hope the Lord comes for his church soon but I also hope he won't be asking me if his timing is right!

I believe the Lord's arrival will settle all doubts and fears. Forever. Soon.

Right on!

Lloyd Smale

01-28-2022, 03:29 PM

Lloyd, I don't know what you're objecting to. Note that I didn't even hint you not post anything you wish, I only suggested you not read posts you object to if they bring you pain. Rules or no rules, your strongly worded objections to posts on this site's clearly labeled religious forum seems to be a bit overbearing. :)

Ah. Perhaps we've gotten to the real basis of your presumptions!

Actually, I've been here quite awhile myself but I've never presumed my date of enlistment grants me any automatic stature over newer guys.

Okay. Do you feel the site managers have allowed topics that are too far outside your comfort range? If so, the genie is really out of the bottle now so what do you think they should do?

Some minds are more easily boggled than others but the clear path to you not seeing religion threads at all is still before us.

Fully agree. And, ditto to you. :2_high5:

Hoping you have a very nice day.....

takes more then that kind of crap to pull my chain. God bless you!!!

1hole

01-28-2022, 04:10 PM

I'm bowing out of this thread because obviously it was started with pretrib rapture acceptance as baseline.

Cheer, IF you're right about the O.P.'s point of view, so what, change our minds! We have no fixed borders surrounding our discussions, this is an open forum and everyone is free to speak.

You said you don't believe in a "pre-trib" rapture. However, the only reason you've given so far is simply that you don't "believe" in a pre-tribulation rapture. Okay, so you don't believe in it but this being the "Deep Theology" forum invites discussions based on more than "I believe this but I don't believe that." Just posting "I do/don't believe" anything is hardly a convincing position.

By definition, "Deep Theology" means a serious study of scripture. But, a deep - or even shallow - theological "study" without scriptural backing really isn't theology at all, it's just human religious opinion and there are some dangerously stormy waters there!

So, again I'll ask you to cross the invisible topic lines and tell us What you DO believe according to your own pre/mid/post trib Rapture "theory" and what scripture(s) do you base your beliefs on?

Who knows, you may prove yourself to be right .... but it'll probably take more than just saying "I believe this and that and you should too!"

exile

11-19-2023, 08:51 PM

"And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.'"

Acts 1:9-11 (E.S.V.)

exile

Bloodman14

11-21-2023, 04:50 PM

Alabama358

11-21-2023, 07:03 PM

320207

Recent events have prompted me to do something I haven't done in 30 years; open my Bible. I've been questioning my own salvation in regards to the rapture, and along the way, I found this. Very helpful to me. I am going to make an appointment to speak with the pastor at one of the facilities (nursing home) that I service to speak further.

Bravo Brother!!
The best course of action a person can take when they have doubts is to open the bible with a glad heart and get in to the Word of GOD.

Some folks can really get on Tilt when they start to have doubts... but consider this, John the Baptist doubted Christ himself and Jesus said that there was never a better man born to a woman. that's a pretty awesome reference considering the competition with the likes of Moses, Elijah, Joshua, David and all the other greats.

Matthew 11:3-4
2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

Matthew11:11
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

The Chart is a good one... I only see a few discrepancies. Thanks for posting it

Bloodman14

11-22-2023, 06:03 PM

Alabama, what discrepancies do you note? I read the appropriate verses and it seems to be right in line with scripture.

Alabama358

11-22-2023, 11:13 PM

Alabama, what discrepancies do you note? I read the appropriate verses and it seems to be right in line with scripture.

The biggest discrepancy is that whomever built that chart (and it is a nice one) assumed that 1 Thessalonians 16-17 happens before even the first Seal is opened but with a little study and comparing Scripture to Scripture it is easy to see it just isnt so... For example

The First letter Paul wrote to the Christian church members of Thessalonica

1 Thessalonians 16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Second letter Paul regarding the same subject to the same church members to relieve some doubt that they had missed the day of the Lord

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

As one can easily see, Paul's second letter tells the church not to let anyone deceive them that the day of the LORD has already happened, and it will not happen until there is a great falling away (apostasy, many folks turning their back on Christ teachings) and the man of sin, the son of perdition revealed and the abomination of desolation has taken place.
Pretty much everyone agrees that the abomination of desolation happens at the midpoint of the 7 years.

Matthew 24:1-51 (Christ disciples came to him and ask for the details of his return, and he lays it out plain and simple)
Mark 13:1-37
Luke 21 1-38
Revelation 6: 1-17

All of the above are great books, chapter and verses with regards to end times rapture study... they all show Christ return at the midpoint of the 7 years after the abomination of desolation and also after the Sun & Moon are darkened

So the red arrow that shows the rapture happening before even the first seal is opened is just not Biblical, I would move that to just after the 6th seal (that is how Christ describes it in Matthew 24 to the earliest Church members and I think he knows)
If anyone starts trying to feed you the "it has to be a total surprise" or "7 year marriage" and church members are secretly disappeared before even the wars and rumors of wars (1st seal) Ask them for chapter and verse to back it up...
My guess is that they will not provide any actual scripture but will give you a bunch of platitudes and cute sayings and finally will tell you that you just need to be able to rightfully divide the word to understand.

If a person reads and studies the above listed chapters with an open mind for understanding they will probably get it

I have them all (book chapter and verse) laid out in a spreadsheet so that you can look at them side by side... but I cant figure out how to insert it into the thread... if anyone can tell me how to do it I would be happy to share it.

Bloodman14

11-23-2023, 10:18 AM

Alabama, if you could do that, I will print it off and show it to my pastor, just to see what he says.

Thundarstick

11-23-2023, 01:44 PM

https://youtu.be/Oaogr-DtKjI?si=MTa0ebHSgD-lYmpM

The latest in Dr. Tabor's review of end time prophecies.

ioon44

11-24-2023, 09:40 AM

https://youtu.be/Oaogr-DtKjI?si=MTa0ebHSgD-lYmpM

The latest in Dr. Tabor's review of end time prophecies.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=Dr.+Tabor&mid=9A462E4397D3442DB5279A462E4397D3442DB527&FORM=VIRE

Thundarstick

11-25-2023, 07:29 AM

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=Dr.+Tabor&mid=9A462E4397D3442DB5279A462E4397D3442DB527&FORM=VIRE

What's this video have to do with rapture theology, or prophecies?

Good Cheer

04-20-2024, 10:52 AM

It sure is quiet around here.

JonB_in_Glencoe

04-20-2024, 11:05 AM

It sure is quiet around here.

Last night, I went to the movie "Civil War"
I hope I get raptured outta here before that happens.

Nines&Twos

04-20-2024, 11:32 AM

It sure is quiet around here.

Let's hope it's quiet cause everyone's got their nose buried in our Father's Word ....curing the biblical illiteracy that is rampant in the world today.

Adam Helmer

04-20-2024, 01:21 PM

I am ready for the Rapture. I hope it comes long before Trump gets indicted a dozen more times while NO Democrat beginning with AG Halder and others are immune from prosecution.

I know the Lord is in charge, but why does He permit ongoing Trump persecution? This is His world and we are not privy to His works, but I pray daily for insight.

Be well.

Adam

Nines&Twos

04-20-2024, 01:45 PM

Uh oh. Went to my semi-annual check up yesterday.
Blood pressure is great, cholesterol is great...
Might live longer than I thought.

You know Rfeustel, there are so many wonderfully amazing aspects and happenings in this reality that others call a religion, so much we can discuss and enjoy without butting heads over where in the chain of events we'll see Jesus face to face. Yeah, we shouldn't concentrate on something that's so custom made to order for driving a wedge. But, that's my opinion and that said, I'm bowing out of this thread because obviously it was started with pretrib rapture acceptance as baseline.

You mean you don't wanna fly away?...even though no one's actually flying anywhere

Yeshua comes one time. ONE time. When his feet hit the mount of olives all who are here will be changed into our celestial bodies in the twinkling of an eye and the 1K yr reign begins.
I can't understand why anyone wants to fly away knowing when the 7th trump sounds...that's the farthest one out, we can all count....Christ comes HERE. Not here, then, there and back again (that's a hobbits tale) HERE. People can fly away with the 1st messiah if they chose to and many will for many will be deceived...but as for me...I'm here waiting and working in the field NOT to be the 1st taken by the spurious messiah.
I feel sorry for those deceived...so desperate to escape that they would believe a lie...with a bit of help from our Father who will help you believe a lie if one chooses (2Thess2:11)

This won't win me any friends but its an honest question...is it fear? Does the little pissant false messiah frighten people SO bad that instead of making a stand as one of Father's elect, they'd desire to run from the enemy? Pfft!!! Satan can do as he pleases...if he wants my head....Molon Labe...The 1st prophecy of the Word SHALL come to pass...half of it already has....Lucifer will bruise HIS heels but HE will bruise his head ...His heels were bruised when they were nailed to the cross....Who wants to share some popcorn and watch the show when The Master bruises his head?

As my earthly teacher loved to say...Just winnin' friends and influencing people here.

Bowdrie

04-20-2024, 01:55 PM

I've sometimes found that when going over Scripture that one kind of has to become like Chief Inspector Clouseau. LOL.
In other words, when you are trying to conflate/compare different verses to examine the Who/What/Where/When/Why.
God's plan thru the Bible covers two courses, the first course is Believer vs Unbeliever, the second is Jew vs Gentile.
Much of the Bible is written to Jewish people, (God's plan for them,) and some is written for the Gentiles, and some is written for both.
The apostle Paul wrote much about how gentiles were to be included just as much as Jews when they became believers.
So as we move into the "Church Age" in Acts there takes a turn where the Jews have to accept the gentile believers as being "spiritually circumcised" just as the Jewish believers and become "one and all" of the same spirit.
When Jesus was speaking in Matthew 24 He was speaking to Jews, they asked Him what would be the signs of His return.
They were not asking about a "Rapture", they were asking about the signs of His "return", ie., His physical return to earth, and He told them what would take place before He did return, not about a "Rapture" event.
If taken to the extreme of being "literal" one could say that the "Falling Away" started with Adam/Eve, most assuredly the whole world had "fallen away" when God closed the door of the Ark.
In Ezekial God said that when Israel was re-born as a nation that they would worship Him, and they did, (for a while,) now Israel is almost completely secular.
The entire 7 years of Tribulation is "God's Wrath". In 1st Thessalonians Paul says that "Us" are NOT appointed unto wrath.
Who is the "Us"? It's the "Church" the body of believers.
The pictures that Paul shows in 1st. Thessalonians and 2nd, Thessalonians are not depicting the same thing.
A Who/What/Where/When/Why chart will show that, and even the description of the signs in the heavens/sky makes it pretty clear.
The Rapture "Comes as a thief in the night", in the "coming to earth" the whole sky blows up, (so to speak,) and the whole world mourns at seeing the Lord return.
In 1st, Thessalonians Paul is writing about the Rapture.
In 2nd. Thessalonians Paul is writing about the physical return of Jesus to earth.

Bowdrie

04-20-2024, 05:58 PM

We can find several symbolic passages in Scripture about a "Rapture event", here are a couple of them;
Rahab got out of Jericho before the destruction and escaped being killed and 7 years of war by having "Faith".
The parable of the prodigal son, the son left the "world of sin", the Father ran to greet him.
They met in the middle, the Father didn't enter the sinful world, but met his son and took him "home".
Jesus said "You believe because you have seen, blessed are those who believe without seeing".
We haven't seen the Rapture or Jesus yet, but we believe by "faith".
After the Rapture many will believe, they will be "saved", (and give their lives for their belief,) but they do not receive the "blessings" that we who believe by Faith will receive.

Bowdrie

04-20-2024, 11:18 PM

One can come to their own conclusions about numbers/percentages of those who believe in the Rapture. I think that a few believe in a post-trib, many believe in a mid-trib, and most believe in a pre-trib.
Those who believe in "no rapture" are the ones that really are out in left field.
That completely negates what Paul wrote.
It's spread all over that some Anglican Priest named John Darby "invented" the rapture, nothing could be farther from the truth.
He did a similar thing to what Martin Luther had done almost 400 years before. He stood-up to the false teachings of the so-called "church" and called them out on their failure to recognize what I tried to say a couple of posts back; That from Isaiah 32, That Israel and the Church were distinct, that God "had a separate plan" for Israel vs Church, a different Dispensation if you will.
I've a friend who subscribes to the "no rapture" school of thought, asking him about Christians going thru the Tribulation. His answer is; "Well, all the Christians got to get together and have food/water/medicine stored-up so they don't have to take the mark to buy or sell, and if they have "Faith" they'll be able to hang on till the end when Jesus will come back to save them",,,, and so on and so forth.
He clearly doesn't have a clue. Will you watch all the older Christians die from no medicine/doctors? Will you watch your babies/children die from starvation?
He has no idea that 1/2 of the entire population left on this earth will die during that 7 years.
The life expectancy of a Christian during that time is almost zero. Christians will all end-up like Anne Frank, they'll be reported to the anti-christ authorities in exchange for some clean water or a 1/2lb of hamburger.
If you told someone who you were trying to lead to Christ that they would have to go thru that for 7 years they'd tell you they wouldn't want any part of Christianity.

.429&H110

04-21-2024, 01:18 AM

I believe in the rapture, but not the world's arguments or explanations...
Been through Revelation in Sunday school four (4) times in two churches
Excellent teachers, deacons, went through word by word, Greek and all
Compare Revelation 1 the description of Christ with the armor of God, Ephesian 6
Beautiful!
Ever notice that Revelation is written in the present tense?
Like it was written as it happened?
When Christ came to rapture John?
Like He did Enoch and Elijah?
I believe I am a Preterist, that God kept his Promise to John.
And I believe God will keep His promise to me.

I will warn that the world is using fear to persuade, fear of dying,
fear of the unknown, fear of God's Judgement, fear of a Second Coming.
Certainly does sell books, keeps utube busy.
But fear keeps people out of church, fear of rejection.
Won't work, people won't stay scared, they get angry.
And yah, they are angry...

If we vote down the anti-christ(s) they are powerless
If we us all of us stand up to the heathen, we win every time.
Christ gave us the Great Commission for this purpose.
Do It. Or die trying, Christ gave us that option, too.

The nattering acolytes of scientism believe in their creation
and they believe that someday the proton will decay, or gravity will make a big crunch
the difference between a young and old earther is funding
I do not need a telescope to see the sky.

What did Jesus say in Matthew 24 and at the end of John?

John 21
...Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

18Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. 19This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Jesus and the Beloved Apostle

20Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? 21Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

24This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Yup, I'm a Preterist.
Not a Johnian or Paulian or Danielian but a Gospel Christian.
Glad He didn't leave me as He found me.

Bowdrie

04-21-2024, 04:03 AM

Yup, I'm a Preterist.

So, you believe that the prophecies in Daniel were all fulfilled by the first century AD, and that Israel found the end of its fulfillment as a "Christian" church when it was destroyed in 70AD?
Ah, it's sad for the Jesuits that started that whole concept and the misguided Protestants who accepted it, trying their best to mold Catholicism and Protestantism into a happy family.
For the Catholics it was a good way to eliminate any thoughts or hope for a better future, thereby keeping their "flock" to the grindstone of "pray and pay" or God will throw you away.
For the Protestants who went along it had a similar appeal, "All that stuff in the NT is old-hat, WE will tell you what to believe",, after all, WE are the "educated ones".
Mores the pity.

Thundarstick

04-21-2024, 05:06 AM

Preterist is about as close as I could come to describe my beliefs. I get a chuckle reading all the "rapture" theorists mumblings. It's well-known there where no repture teachings in the early church, and none until Darby's influence followed by Schofield latching onto it and publishing his reference Bible. Rapture theology, with the condoning of the state Israel paving the way for Christ return,is an almost wholly American based belief.

Nines&Twos

04-21-2024, 06:28 AM

Don't leave out Margret Macdonald...the great dreamer...:roll:

Thundarstick

04-21-2024, 08:42 AM

Don't leave out Margret Macdonald...the great dreamer...:roll:

Didn't remember her name at the time.

Good Cheer

04-21-2024, 09:09 AM

Considering the extent of the desired depopulation indicated in the public statements and published writings of our betters, well, perhaps it won't quite be the means envisioned by many but to all appearances lots of us are going to be with Jesus in this run up to the third day before He sets foot upon the mount.

I'm not persuaded with the arguments either way though I've paid attention to both sides.
I recognize the fallacious interpretations of scripture and just have to shake my head that people willingly fall to it because it supports their preferred scenario. And it makes me think there's something we're all missing because there has never been a preacher / teacher that I didn't have at least some controversy with.

.429&H110

04-21-2024, 07:17 PM

My idea is about the time Paul was writing Thessalonians
Our Savior was bringing John home
Must have been something amazing to see.
Too bad Enoch didn't write his account too. Oh, wait, he did.

The Holy Spirit compelled everybody to write all this down.

As a Bible literalist, to me this is a history written by God.
The Prophesy part is God's Promises.
America has forgotten our promise to God.

I have a crew of tinfoil hats in the family,
and it's either the second coming of Trump or Jesus,
told them to go read their Bible this time.

Nines&Twos

04-21-2024, 07:31 PM

I'm not persuaded with the arguments either way though I've paid attention to both sides.
I recognize the fallacious interpretations of scripture and just have to shake my head that people willingly fall to it because it supports their preferred scenario. And it makes me think there's something we're all missing because there has never been a preacher / teacher that I didn't have at least some controversy with.

Setting aside ALL differences...THIS is why anyone who is serious about understanding our Father's Word MUST have a Strong's concordance at minimum and a Green's Interlinear is really nice as well. I like Moffat's translation too but E.W. Bullinger's Companion bible is my current study bible. Having only one translation .....and one of the newer translations especially.... is a pretty bad idea. Don't get me wrong...I'd heap rather have a person content with their NIV and never getting any deeper... than some creep reading anton lavey's filth....but this IS the 'Deep Theological Discussion' sub-forum and how deep can you get on only one translation? Father preserves his word and if you seek Him and His wisdom...he WILL show you what He wants you to know. ....maybe not what you want to know...but what HE wants you to know so he can put you to use. ....that's my 2¢ and with current inflation thats worth....yeah.:-P

Good Cheer

04-21-2024, 08:50 PM

Setting aside ALL differences...THIS is why anyone who is serious about understanding our Father's Word MUST have a Strong's concordance at minimum and a Green's Interlinear is really nice as well. I like Moffat's translation too but E.W. Bullinger's Companion bible is my current study bible. Having only one translation .....and one of the newer translations especially.... is a pretty bad idea. Don't get me wrong...I'd heap rather have a person content with their NIV and never getting any deeper... than some creep reading anton lavey's filth....but this IS the 'Deep Theological Discussion' sub-forum and how deep can you get on only one translation? Father preserves his word and if you seek Him and His wisdom...he WILL show you what He wants you to know. ....maybe not what you want to know...but what HE wants you to know so he can put you to use. ....that's my 2¢ and with current inflation thats worth....yeah.:-P

[smilie=w:

https://i.imgur.com/8dLzu3C.jpg

Bowdrie

04-21-2024, 10:40 PM

Having several Bibles of various translative efforts is all well and good.
I'm quite sure that people in many repressive areas of the world feel fortunate if they can have, (and perhaps have to keep hidden,) one or two of the Gospels, yet they believe in the Lord with all their heart.
I believe we have a "finished work", and John warns us against either adding-to or taking away.
Whether one wishes to include the Apocrypha could be argued without gain.
That said, one can only imagine the scrolls of "first person" accounts written during the span of perhaps 200BC to 200AD, more specifically during the years of our Lords "life and times".
The library at Alexandria most certainly contained some treasures that are only imaginable.
What might be hidden away in the bowels of the Vatican?
Let us give Praise to the Lord that much of what we discuss, (or viewpoints taken,) are not "mission critical" to the main objective; To spread the Gospel of Salvation.

Nines&Twos

04-22-2024, 05:19 AM

Good Cheer

04-22-2024, 05:59 AM

NICE Good Cheer! Some day I'd like a 'good' printing of the original 1611. Not that I would ever read much of it...confusing as Olde English is...but the translators and scholars who compiled what we know as 'The Bible' wrote a letter and attached it warning against translation and interpretation errors, fully admitting their work was not without flaws. One fine example can be found in Luke 14:26. Its a sad person indeed that really believes Christ would tell anyone they must hate their family. The Greek word used in this instance actually translates to 'Love Less' and that is exactly as it should be...you must love your family less than Christ if you are to be a true follower. I think Jesus Christ was/is rather put out by the idea someone would imply He means for you to hate your family. Several more instances occur and even MORE when you get out of KJV translations and get into more modern translations.

The Strong's, the Companion and the Interlinear are some power packed study tools.
Once the computers came along to let us do searches and compile searchable lists they complement our studies but the best computers are still between our ears and the very best study tools are still ink on paper.

Hey, by the way, yesterday we traveled a couple of hours to the christening of a new member of the family and were treated to a pastor's presentation on the four different words for the four different kinds of love featured in scripture. It's a fun example of translations.

Alabama358

04-22-2024, 10:49 AM

This is the kind of garbage people pushing a false (John Nelson Darby) doctrine spew.

Bowdie... Please explain which parts of the New Testament is written mostly to the Jews? The 4 Gospels? Acts? Romans? I could go on listing the books but that would be kind of silly. one might be able to say the book of Hebrews was written to the Jews but then a person would have to read it to find out that its purpose is to say that there is no separate program for the Jews.

Much of the Bible is written to Jewish people, (God's plan for them,) and some is written for the Gentiles, and some is written for both.

Why is it some folks would have you believe that most of the Bible is written to "the Jews"

It is possible that from this construct they have created a platform to rebuke someone making any of the multitudes of scripture references that totally crush the John Nelson Darby false teachings, by simply saying "that part is written to the Jews"

But What does the actual Scripture say about the Jew and the gentile... For the sake of space I will only list a few below

Galatians 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

1Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

When Jesus was speaking in Matthew 24 He was speaking to Jews, they asked Him what would be the signs of His return.
They were not asking about a "Rapture", they were asking about the signs of His "return", ie., His physical return to earth, and He told them what would take place before He did return, not about a "Rapture" event.
Who are the "They" that ask him??? not some random Jews, it was only his apostles

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

So you think that the Apostles, The born again followers of Christ... Those who were at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended etc. are considered "the Jews" and not" the church."
Or you believe that they are the members of the Bride of Christ and went to him as "the Body of Christ" "The Church" and said Lord gives us the playbook of the end times? So the Lord gave them his teaching in Matthew 24 but forgot to say "oh by the way....forget all that I just said because that is for "the Jews" there is a different program for ya'll.

The entire 7 years of Tribulation is "God's Wrath". In 1st Thessalonians Paul says that "Us" are NOT appointed unto wrath.

Hogwash....Supply one solid chapter & verse (from the Bible) that says the whole 7 year period is "Gods Wrath" there isn't one, that again is just more Darby Dung!
According to scripture the actual sequence of events goes Tribulation - Great Tribulation - Gods wrath

A Who/What/Where/When/Why chart will show that, and even the description of the signs in the heavens/sky makes it pretty clear.
The Rapture "Comes as a thief in the night", in the "coming to earth" the whole sky blows up, (so to speak,) and the whole world mourns at seeing the Lord return.
In 1st, Thessalonians Paul is writing about the Rapture. (see below)
In 2nd. Thessalonians Paul is writing about the physical return of Jesus to earth.

If 1st Thessalonians as you say is "the Rapture" then the whole thief in the night thingy goes out the window if you are a child of the light (born again saved person)

1 Thessalonians 5: 4-5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Alabama358

04-22-2024, 01:17 PM

Bowdrie

04-22-2024, 02:34 PM

Alabama358, please, don't be pedantic.
You ask me about what parts of NT are written mostly to Jews, but then you quote me as saying that much of the Bible is written to Jews.
Yes, much of the Bible is written to Jews, why would you hammer me on what I didn't say.
Consider this; If we think that Adam/Eve are ~4,000BC and Genisis ends with the death of Jacob, we can see that about 1/3 of the entire timeline from Adam to us now in 2024 is contained in just that first book.
The NT is a "new" covenant, the cross event changed things, that is so self-evident that it can't be argued.
You asked about who are "they",, please consider CONTEXT, it ain't rocket science.
I expect that someone would already know that Jesus was speaking to His disciples in Matt 24, when I said "they" one should know that "they" were the disciples.
The "Church"?
I never said that the "church" excluded Jews, nor was the "church" only for Gentiles.
But I ask you to consider this; studies/reports conclude that only about 1% of the Jewish population of Israel today self-identifies as "Born Again Christian", and Israel has less than 10M people, it doesn't take much math to figure out that across the entire world that the "Church" of "Born Again Believers" is probably somewhere ~99.9999% Gentile, if not more.
The "Thief in the night"?
Of course, when Paul references "children of light" vs "children of darkness", he's differentiating between saved and un-saved, that's so easy to see.
We, the saved will "see" the day approaching, the un-saved will not, Jesus will come as a thief in the night to them, (the unsaved).
Paul had to tell them all that, some of them thought the Rapture had already happened and Paul is saying, "No, you're in the Light, why would you even need to ask me?"
Many theologians consider the Bible, (taken as a whole, both OT/NT,) is somewhere between ~20>30% prophetic, some even more.
But when time overtakes prophesy than the prophesy is no longer, it becomes history.
If someone takes the view of a Preterist, in that all had been fulfilled by ~100AD, then to that person the whole Bible is just a history book with the exceptions of passages relating to our "going to Heaven" when we die, (we assume we're not dead yet).
For that viewpoint I have no answer except to type a quote;
"For those who believe no explanation is necessary, for those who don't believe no explanation is possible".

Alabama358

04-22-2024, 04:51 PM

You asked about who are "they",, please consider CONTEXT, it ain't rocket science.
I expect that someone would already know that Jesus was speaking to His disciples in Matt 24, when I said "they" one should know that "they" were the disciples.
The "Church"?
I never said that the "church" excluded Jews, nor was the "church" only for Gentiles.

OK... let us make it super simple.

- Is the New Testament written to everyone... all inclusive, without respect of persons, without exception, Jews/Gentiles, Same rules rewards and punishments for everyone?

- Where do you think the disciples fall under? Are they "The Church" or "The Jews"? (will they be raptured right along side you?)

- With regards to end times, is there two different programs? One for "The Jews" and one for the "Non Jews"

Stated differently
- A Gentile or Jew that believes on the Lord Jesus (born again saved) are raptured together in the same twinkling of an eye when that time has come? Yes or No?
- A Christ rejecting Gentile or Jew at the time of death or when the Lord Christ returns to collect his elect are both doomed to destruction? Yes or No?

Bowdrie

04-22-2024, 08:23 PM

I'll try to answer in as few words as I can.
I'll preface by saying that the path to salvation has always been open to all people thru out all time, from the time God created Adam.
Yes, the NT is written to all, with no respecter of persons.
Some may argue, it's ok, I believe that the Apostles are part of the "Church". I could easily be wrong, but I believe that the "Church age" started with Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit, (for the first time,) came into and stayed within believers on a 24/7/365 basis.
And I do believe that the Apostles, and all the believers of both Jew and Gentile, whether having died or are living at the time of the Rapture will be "Taken away/snatched away/raptured", "The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive will be caught-up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air".
You asked me about programs for Jew/non-Jew in regards to "end times".
How do we define "end times", 2,000 years ago the Thessalonians thought they were in "end times".
The modern thought is that "end times" started in 1948 with the re-birth of the nation of Israel.
My personal view is that the "real end times", (so to speak,) started when there were no prophecies left that "had" be fulfilled before a rapture could take place, I believe the Rapture could happen any day.
Jesus told the disciples a list of things that would happen before He returned, (Jesus was talking about when He would physically return to earth, not a "rapture").
When the disciples were asking Jesus all this stuff the cross event had not yet taken place, Jesus had not risen, and the Holy Spirit had not yet descended, and the disciples were still "under the law".
Even though Jesus had talked to them about the "Kingdom of Heaven" they still were looking for Him to be their King on an earthly kingdom.
They were shocked when He told them He must die/rise/go back to heaven.
So, they were asking him what the signs of would be his coming back to earth, and He answered them.
Jesus was not teaching "Rapture Theology" to the disciples, He was simply telling them things that would take place, and when they saw the "beginning" of those things to "Look-Up" that their redemption was near.
Different programs?
Yes, during the 7 years of Tribulation, (some say 3-1/2 years of Tribulation plus 3-1/2 years of Great Tribulation,) that's ok, there are different programs.
That's easy to see, suffice to say that the "man of sin" does not declare himself god in China, and the Armageddon battle doesn't take place on the plains of Kansas.
Both Jew and Gentile, if they die having rejected Christ both go to destruction.
Sin had enveloped the world, so God re-started with Noah and then chose Abraham to father a people that would (hopefully,) show the world that salvation from sin would come from God giving grace to those who would follow Him.
In effect, the Jewish people were supposed to do two things; 1, Be the caretakers of Gods Land, (Israel). 2, Be the "missionaries" of the world , (so to speak),
Well, for 2,000 years that didn't work out so well, so God sent Jesus, and the Jews rejected Him.
What could God do? From the snake in the Garden to Noah was roughly 2,000 years of rejection, then came rejection of the Messiah after roughly 2,000 years since Abraham, so then God gave the Gentiles about 2,000 years to accept Him as Lord and Savior over all.
Well, we've seen how the roughly three periods of about 2,000 years have worked out, right?
I'm not saying this lightly by any means, but God has been an "equal opportunity employer" in trying to get mans attention for the last ~6,000 years, and man has had his "3 strikes and you're out".
1, Adam to Noah, sin take over, God is rejected, that's strike 1.
2, Abram/Jews, reject the messiah, that's strike 2.
3, "The time of the Gentiles", further rejection of God, that's strike 3.
Man is OUT, and God comes to bat.
When the Tribulation starts God is going to be at home-plate, and He's going to be swinging a big bat, and the world is going to learn how hard He hits the ball.

Good Cheer

04-23-2024, 08:01 AM

Someone may have written in the 6000 year time line after the fact but that doesn't alter the assurance that we are indeed on the cusp of the third day. Not to worry though seeing as my meat suit is just about worn out.

Alabama358

04-23-2024, 01:15 PM

I'll try to answer in as few words as I can.

Dang Brother, that was the short version? :kidding:

All kidding aside... I appreciate your honest, well thought out candid answers. many folks want to speak in riddles, talk in circles and cryptic sayings for fear that they might offend someone or worst yet draw a challenge and have to defend their position with scripture.

I actually thought we were further apart on the aforementioned questions but it seems that we are pulling on the same end of the rope on most everything with the exception of Matthew 24 (Mark 13, Luke 21) and the timing of the day of redemption.

- What is the Day of redemption?
- Which "Elect" is the Lord collecting
- When the Lord returns physically he will be on a white horse and with his saints in tow not collecting them... would you agree?

Jesus told the disciples a list of things that would happen before He returned, (Jesus was talking about when He would physically return to earth, not a "rapture"). He never mentions returning physically to earth... only that they will see him in the clouds. Is that just an assumption, because I don't see it written?
When the disciples were asking Jesus all this stuff the cross event had not yet taken place, Jesus had not risen, and the Holy Spirit had not yet descended, and the disciples were still "under the law".
Even though Jesus had talked to them about the "Kingdom of Heaven" they still were looking for Him to be their King on an earthly kingdom. Point of fact...they were asking him precisely about the end of the world as stated in verse 3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
They were shocked when He told them He must die/rise/go back to heaven.
So, they were asking him what the signs of would be his coming back to earth, Actually, they were asking him about the end of the world and He answered them.
Jesus was not teaching "Rapture Theology" to the disciples, He was simply telling them things that would take place, and when they saw the "beginning" of those things to "Look-Up" that their redemption was near. If Jesus was teaching about his 2nd coming and not the Rapture... why would he tell them to look up that their redemption is nigh if they had been Raptured (redeemed) approx. 3 1/2 years ago???

A few things to consider...
Christ never physically returns to earth in Matthew 24, Mark 13 or Luke 21. He appears in the clouds in all his glory and sends his angels with a great sound trumpet to collect his elect

Matthew 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:26
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:27
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

At the risk of getting long-winded [smilie=l: I'll stop there

Bowdrie

04-23-2024, 04:52 PM

When the nations see the Lord coming in power and glory, and great trumpet sounds, and all the tribes mourn is not a picture of the Rapture, in the rapture no one sees anything, the church just disappears before their eyes, "in the twinkle of an eye".
You'll also see if you back-up a few verses to Matt 24:15>21, you'll see that the "abomination" and Jesus telling the Jews to flee has already happened.
The passages about gathering the elect from the corners of the earth and the uttermost part of heaven, is not about the rapture either.
Would Jesus gather the elect from the uttermost parts of heaven for a "rapture" if some of the elect were already in heaven?
No, the "Elect" that the angels "gather" from the earth and heaven are the Jews, both those who are still alive and scattered around the earth, and the Jews in heaven.
What Matt/Mark/Luke are describing are extremely condensed versions of things taking place.
If you go back to Daniel 12:11>12, you'll see a 45 day period that is AFTER the 1290 days since the abomination.
This is the time in which the Jews are all gathered back to Israel, the "church" that returns with Jesus goes to their assignments all over the world, and the separation of the sheep/goats takes place, and Jesus restores order on the earth.
The tribulation ends with the return of Jesus at the end of the 1290 days, (when the whole world sees Him return,) but then there is that 45 day period where Jesus/the angels/the returned church, are busy "cleaning up the mess" so to speak.
That period is also when Satan is bound and his followers are tossed.
It's a busy 45 days.
I've tried to be short winded, LOL.

Alabama358

04-24-2024, 03:32 PM

When the nations see the Lord coming in power and glory, and great trumpet sounds, and all the tribes mourn is not a picture of the Rapture, in the rapture no one sees anything, the church just disappears before their eyes, "in the twinkle of an eye". I always ask folks from the Darby Pre-trib camp for a specific, crystal clear verse that confirms that "the Church" (as we have already established to include all Jew/Greek, bond/free, male/female which have believed on Jesus) Just disappears right in front of everyone's eyes and no one sees anything, no signs no wonders... just gone, (a bible verse that clearly states that this happens before the start of the 7 year period spoken of by Daniel the prophet.)

Is it...
1 Corinthians 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(if so, I just don't see anything that delineates a timeline... we can be pulled out at the beginning, the middle or the end in a twinkling of an eye. Of course the 2nd half is God's wrath so that rules that out)

Is it...
1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(a quick and easy read will show that God's wrath doesn't start until the 2nd half of the 7 year period)

- 3 1/2 years of tribulation
- Abomination of desolation (1/2 way point of the 7 year period)
- Brief period of Great Tribulation
- Almost 3 1/2 years of Gods Wrath

Your take is that the Church is pulled out before the start of first 3 1/2 year period of tribulation???

There must be a verse of scripture that clearly state (one that you don't need to do biblical gymnastics to discern) that the day of redemption happens at the start of the week.