Are you ready for the Rapture? [Archive]

GhostHawk

08-09-2020, 09:23 AM

No man knows the hour or the day, not even the Son of God or the Holy Spirit know. This one the Lord God Almighty is holding close to his chest.

Am I ready? Yes.

"As a theological milestone, how can we differentiate the Rapture from the Second Coming?"
Not sure you can or why you'd want to. IMO they are one and the same. He will come again.
" “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 "

"Is the idea of the rapture a solid theological premise or do only a few Christians believe in it?
Is the rapture a new idea or has it always been a concept present in church history?
Who first came up with the idea of a rapture of the church?"

No idea, and to me not really important.

"Can we predict when the rapture will take place or will it be a surprise?"
No we can not predict it, it will come when it comes. Most will not be ready.

"Is it possible to be ready for such a cataclysmic event?"

Of course. All you have to do is accept the lord totally.
Accept that it is HIS will that will be done, not ours.
Maintain a solid steadfast relaitinship with the Lord. Repent of your sins, try not to sin again. Do good works in his name.

The last does not have to be horrible terrible work. Spending an hour with an old friend visiting. Visit those you know who are sick and need of company.
"Mathew 25 :40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

So doing a few good works in his name is not hard. By their fruit you shall know them. Those who bring forth worthless fruit or no fruit shall be cut back and cast into the fire. But those who bring forth good fruit shall be pruned and encouraged.

When the Lord comes again in the air at the last trump he will seperate the sheep from the goats. And the sheep will all be of his flock, lovingly tended.
And the goats shall be cast down.

I am no bible scholar. And yet the Holy Spirit asked me to answer you as best I may.

Most of your questions IMO don't really apply.

Keep your faith polished bright.
Honor the Lord
Surrender to his will
Repent honestly of all your sins. Leave your burdens at his feet.
Go forth and try to spread the good news. Helping and loving others. Forgiving those who cause you pain.
Cleanse your heart of all ill feeling, anger, hate. The Holy Spirit can not stay in a heart cluttered with these.
Once you have a pure heart and a humble attitude pray that the Holy Spirit would visit you, guide you.
Once that happens, peace which surpasseth all understanding, peace like a river descends upon you. And it becomes much easier.

Once you learn to still your mind and listen you can hear him.

At that point the rapture has no fear for you. For you have been washed clean in the blood of the Lamb.

dtknowles

08-09-2020, 11:06 AM

I am ready but I don't believe the rapture will be. It is just a man made end of times story.

One should always be ready, not for our salvation but just because right is right and wrong is wrong and we should always do our best to be right. Sure I guess it is better if people to right because they want salvation. Sure it is better if people do what is right because they fear damnation and the fires of hell. Best is if people do what is right because they believe in doing what is right for its own reasons.

If you believe in God and do good so you will be saved you are committing the sin of selfishness - greed.

Praying for or even just hoping for the Rapture because you believe you are ready for it and want to experience it is selfish - evil.

Wanted to put humanity out of its misery now is like putting a dog down for a lame foot. There is still plenty of good in the world and hope for the future. I might be ready for the Rapture but the Planet is not we are far from the time.

A reminder, right and wrong are not limited to the ten commandments. The ten commandments are just an invitation to follow the letter but not the spirit of the law.

It is much better to demonstrate virtue than it is to work to avoid sin.

The guiding virture is Charity - Charity — Love for one’s neighbor as oneself - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Charity, which “binds everything together in perfect harmony” (Colossians 3:14, ESV).

Prudence is basically practical common sense. It’s saying or doing the proper thing, at the proper time, and in the appropriate manner. It’s also the ability to know and judge whether to say something or do nothing at all.

Justice is the virtue that seeks to promote fair play. It’s the desire and resolve to give each person his due. It demands that you reward goodness and punish evil. Justice can be one of three different types:

Commutative justice is based on the principle of quid pro quo, which is Latin for this for that. Commutative justice requires, for example, that a customer pay a fair price for worthwhile goods.

Distributive justice involves the relationship between one and many — between an individual and a group — a person and the government, for example.

Social justice concerns the relationships between individuals and groups between one another and everyone. The common good and equal treatment are the cornerstones of social justice.

Temperance is the virtue by which a person uses balance. It’s the good habit that allows a person to relax and have fun without crossing the line and committing sin.

Fortitude is the ability to persevere in times of trial and tribulation — the ability to hang in there when the going gets tough. It’s courage to do the right thing no matter what the cost.

If you feel some moral quandary, check to see what the Charitable thing to do would be. Who benefits and who is hurt. Remember hurt can be subtle or in the future. Does your comfort depend on indebting future generations. Did your stash of ammo come at the expense of others who came to find empty shelves. Did you leave the shelf empty, take the last box or did you leave more than you took.

When you bought your groceries did you give any to the food bank?

Are you doing God's work or just working for yourself.

Worrying about and calling for the Rapture is just working for yourself.

Tim

1hole

08-09-2020, 02:56 PM

Here it is: 1 Thess 4:17 "... we will be caught up.."

Paul wrote that to the church in Thessalonica to a people who feared those who had recently died would miss the coming of the Lord for his people. He wanted to assure them (and, by extension, us) that, dead or alive, no Christian can possibly miss that event. In fact, he stresses that the dead will arise first! Then, we who are alive will also be caught up to join them with the Lord in the air. The physically "caught up" of dead and living believers at that time is the Rapture of the church.

Rapture is simply an untranslated Greek word relating to raptors (meaning birds of prey such as hawks, owls and eagles) swooping down to grasp and carry away the sought objects.

Thus the Rapture of the church (the church is the "body/bride of Christ" and includes all believers) is a totally separate event from the Lord's second coming. The next time is when he will complete his second coming on a white horse, followed by all of us. That second coming is when he'll actually land and establish his one thousand year kingdom on earth.

The millenial (1,000 year) kingdom will end with one last Satanic rebellion.

After the 1K kingdom ends, the Great White Throne will see the resurrection and separation of the few remaining "sheep" of the kingdom age and the vast number of "goats" of all ages. After that there will be a Great White Throne judgement for sentencing the already condemned "goats".

See John 3:16-18 to see who will be rewarded and who will be sentenced. Note there is no reference to a heavenly court to see if anyone has been "good enough" to be saved so fears of not measuring up are misplaced. God measures the heart; get your heart right and everything else will be alright!

Now, this is a very brief overview of my "end times" scenerio; but, is it correct? Well, I think it is but it's not really mine and I sure wouldn't die for it! However, I have studied the questions and many expert's proposed answers for several decades. I don't like loose ends and it's the only view I've yet seen that answers all questions without leaving any loose scriptural strings hanging in unsupported space.

Anyone with web access to Youtube should search for Dr. David Jeremiah's messages on the end times. (And almost anything else! :))

Thundarstick

08-09-2020, 10:13 PM

Thunder Stick

08-10-2020, 08:17 AM

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." - Matthew 25:1-13

Stay woke. Don't be "left behind".

1hole

08-10-2020, 10:42 AM

Are any of these conjectures relevant to how I should live my life? Are answers to these questions going to have an effect on how you live and whom you serve? Personally, I find these wranglings about as useful to MY daily walk with God as "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?". The ONLY thing that matters to me is what I do from day to day. In the end (whenever that may be) my relationship with God through Christ is all that matters! If your not ready, get ready!

To YOU, the coming rapture has no great meaning and staying ready is certainly the proper goal for all of us. But eminence of the sudden call for God's people to "come up here" is exciting and the very thought of it has daily meaning to a lot of us. :)

It was Exile's specific "rapture" questions I addressed and none of what I posted is a daydream, every bit of it is written in God's Book.

Thundarstick

08-10-2020, 10:16 PM

To YOU, the coming rapture has no great meaning and staying ready is certainly the proper goal for all of us. But eminence of the sudden call for God's people to "come up here" is exciting and the very thought of it has daily meaning to a lot of us. :)

It was Exile's specific "rapture" questions I addressed and none of what I posted is a daydream, every bit of it is written in God's Book.

Get ready! Be ready! Stay ready! The scriptures where written to bolster the faith of those who become impatient and disillusioned because Jesus isn't come quick enough to please them. Don't become tired of doing good, keep the faith, fight a good fight, and run the race like there will only be one winner! Peace!

1hole

08-11-2020, 07:32 PM

Get ready! Be ready! Stay ready! The scriptures where written to bolster the faith of those who become impatient and disillusioned because Jesus isn't come quick enough to please them. Don't become tired of doing good, keep the faith, fight a good fight, and run the race like there will only be one winner! Peace!

There you go.

I get (I stay!) a bit excited contemplating the coming Rapture, and have for decades because there are no prophecies left to be fulfilled before it comes but, excited or not, your post is the bottom line for us all isn't it?

I do get frustrated with those who think and teach that only those who are prayed up, confessed up, worked up, paid up will get to go up! Truth is, IF any of us had to be worthy of heaven to get there none of us will ever get there but believers are accorded Jesus' perfect life record. Therefore no true believer is going to be "left behind" at the Rapture because the Son of God has already paid our sin penalty! Thus, regardless of our errors in minor doctrines, all Christians can live and eventually die (physically) in Jesus' perfect peace! I wish everyone knew that. :) <><

dtknowles

08-11-2020, 10:13 PM

There you go.

I get (I stay!) a bit excited contemplating the coming Rapture, and have for decades because there are no prophecies left to be fulfilled before it comes but, excited or not, your post is the bottom line for us all isn't it?

I do get frustrated with those who think and teach that only those who are prayed up, confessed up, worked up, paid up will get to go up! Truth is, IF any of us had to be worthy of heaven to get there none of us will ever get there but believers are accorded Jesus' perfect life record. Therefore no true believer is going to be "left behind" at the Rapture because the Son of God has already paid our sin penalty! Thus, regardless of our errors in minor doctrines, all Christians can live and eventually die (physically) in Jesus' perfect peace! I wish everyone knew that. :) <><

I know you already understand but this is where we differ. "Truth is, IF any of us had to be worthy of heaven to get there none of us will ever get there" I disagree, God can tell who of us is worthy, God know our deepest secrets and the depth of our love for our brothers and sisters. On this will we be judged. We can be worthy of heaven but is hard.

On this we will agree, "no true believer is going to be left behind" a true believer will have a deep and abiding love for his sisters and brothers.

Tim

dannyd

08-11-2020, 11:39 PM

Yes, because I may be Raptured tonight. Always be prepared.

1hole

08-12-2020, 10:05 AM

Anyone going to God's perfect heaven has to have a perfect, totally sin free life record but only ONE man has ever accomplished that. Therefore, in order to get to heaven, all imperfect men must be accorded that one man's perfect life record or perish.

Anyone can "believe" what he wishes about earning his own salvation but a "good works" based life, i.e., lived as imperfectly self-righteous as the scribes and pharisees of Jesus' day, won't get anyone anywhere with God because all our works are as filthy rags before Him and it's not arguable (Isa 64:6; Rom 3:19-25; 6:23; 10:2-4; Eph 2:8-9) THAT'S exactly why Jesus sacrificed himself in our stead! In doing that, a loving Jesus purchased our salvation and presents it to us as an unearned gift. Therefore, if we are saved at all, we are granted - gifted - a pure salvation based entirely on what HE has done for us. Any good things we may do in life are simply our love gifts back to him and we are NOT "earning" our salvation!

Bottomline, if men could possibly earn salvation there would have been no reason for Jesus to go to the Cross. Anyone saying salvation might be earned by doing good stuff diminishes the cost of Jesus' blood bought gift and demeans his suffering for us. Spiritually, following the path of our own "good works" are ego driven bad news and it leads proud men down the meandering broad road of life into the roaring gates of hell (Mat 7:13-14).

None of that's my idea, it's all clearly written in the Book.

ioon44

08-13-2020, 09:09 AM

Right on, good post it is all about Jesus and what he has done for us that we can not do for our selves'.

"All my hope is based on nothing less than Jesus Blood and Righteous."

dtknowles

08-13-2020, 10:25 AM

Right on, good post it is all about Jesus and what he has done for us that we can not do for our selves'.

"All my hope is based on nothing less than Jesus Blood and Righteous."

All your hope is based on the Bible you use being true.

Tim

dtknowles

08-13-2020, 10:26 AM

ioon44

08-13-2020, 11:46 AM

All your hope is based on the Bible you use being true.

Tim

Absolutely, What do place your hope in?

dannyd

08-13-2020, 12:48 PM

All your hope is based on the Bible you use being true.

Tim

Every word in the KJV is true so I'm good come on Rapture. To quote other individuals.

Not Looking for a hole in the looking for hole in the Air. Not Looking for the Undertaker Looking for the Uptaker. Helps me in to Sleep Good at Night. Just feels good writing it. :)

dtknowles

08-13-2020, 03:53 PM

Absolutely, What do place your hope in?

I place my hope in God.

Tim

ioon44

08-13-2020, 04:03 PM

I place my hope in God.

Tim

Which God?

1hole

08-13-2020, 08:41 PM

I know you already understand but this is where we differ. "Truth is, IF any of us had to be worthy of heaven to get there none of us will ever get there" I disagree,...

We disagree on that and a lot more than that. But, basically, you choose to agree with yourself and I chose to agree with scripture. ??? Only one of us can be right.

.... God can tell who of us is worthy.

He sure can! And God has said that none of us are worthy of heaven. But then I don't know which god you trust! I trust the One who says Jesus is the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6) and has written that all of our self righteousness - the very self righteousness you profess for yourself - is as filthy rags before Him (Isa 64:6; Rom 3:10). God tells us there is one narrow way and one name to access heaven but you wrongly seek to convince people that there are many ways and a wide path to heaven, and you "know" all that because you're really smart and have it all figured out (John 14:6; Act 4:12). Sadly, you know very much but you understand very little.

... On this will we be judged. We can be worthy of heaven but is hard.

Wrong. YOU say "we can be worthy of heaven" but God says we cannot, it's much worse than hard and He knows it. So, in his love, God provided a worthy substitute to pay sin's cost for those who would totally trust in his son, the Lord Jesus, as saviour. I do, all Christians do. But you do not; instead you're trusting in your self righteousness and expect God to see things your way instead of his way. Good luck with that.

On this we will agree, "no true believer is going to be left behind" a true believer will have a deep and abiding love for his sisters and brothers.

You don't understand that "a true believer" is one who believes in loving God in the Biblical way and that is what produces the good works and love you're hoping will get you into heaven - it won't.

Biblical "belief" includes trusting in, clinging to and submitting to the one believed in. But, you believe in an alphabet soup of gods, not Jesus, so you've chosen the wide path that leads to hell. I don't know you so I'll take your word for how deeply you love others but I know you only have a head knowledge belief in God and reject the rest. Therefore, you only have a comfortable religion and a wimpy god (Mat 7:21-23).

You think you grasp it all better than anyone else but you do not. Instead, you have fallen into Adam's original-ego driven sin-trap of choosing to be your own God and deciding for yourself what is good and evil, i.e., what is right and wrong. That's sad for you and it didn't work out very well for Adam either.

dannyd

08-13-2020, 09:44 PM

THE SEVEN DISPENSATIONS
1. Man innocent.
2. Man under conscience.
3. Man in authority over the earth.
4. Man under promise.
5. Man under law.
6. Man under grace.
7. Man under the personal reign of Christ.

We are in No 6 Saved by Grace and will be Raptured out before No 7 ether by Death or we will be called by the Trump of God.

The first 5 show the failure of man.

It's great to live in the age of Grace.

Sleep tight it may come tonight.

dtknowles

08-13-2020, 11:46 PM

Which God?

There is but one God. The creator of all that is.

Tim

dtknowles

08-13-2020, 11:52 PM

We disagree on that and a lot more than that. But, basically, you choose to agree with yourself and I chose to agree with scripture. ??? Only one of us can be right.

He sure can! And God has said that none of us are worthy of heaven. But then I don't know which god you trust! I trust the One who says Jesus is the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6) and has written that all of our self righteousness - the very self righteousness you profess for yourself - is as filthy rags before Him (Isa 64:6; Rom 3:10). God tells us there is one narrow way and one name to access heaven but you wrongly seek to convince people that there are many ways and a wide path to heaven, and you "know" all that because you're really smart and have it all figured out (John 14:6; Act 4:12). Sadly, you know very much but you understand very little.

Wrong. YOU say "we can be worthy of heaven" but God says we cannot, it's much worse than hard and He knows it. So, in his love, God provided a worthy substitute to pay sin's cost for those who would totally trust in his son, the Lord Jesus, as saviour. I do, all Christians do. But you do not; instead you're trusting in your self righteousness and expect God to see things your way instead of his way. Good luck with that.

You don't understand that "a true believer" is one who believes in loving God in the Biblical way and that is what produces the good works and love you're hoping will get you into heaven - it won't.

Biblical "belief" includes trusting in, clinging to and submitting to the one believed in. But, you believe in an alphabet soup of gods, not Jesus, so you've chosen the wide path that leads to hell. I don't know you so I'll take your word for how deeply you love others but I know you only have a head knowledge belief in God and reject the rest. Therefore, you only have a comfortable religion and a wimpy god (Mat 7:21-23).

You think you grasp it all better than anyone else but you do not. Instead, you have fallen into Adam's original-ego driven sin-trap of choosing to be your own God and deciding for yourself what is good and evil, i.e., what is right and wrong. That's sad for you and it didn't work out very well for Adam either.

I don't expect God to see things my way. God will see like God always does, God sees all, we can hide nothing from God. If God does not save me because I am not worthy then so be it.

Tim

Thundarstick

08-14-2020, 05:35 AM

I don't expect God to see things my way. God will see like God always does, God sees all, we can hide nothing from God. If God does not save me because I am not worthy then so be it.

Tim
If your not saved, it'll be because you didn't follow God's son and submit to his teachings (just like any of us). That, and being a false teacher. Subverting others away from the path of salvation.
We should ALL be extremely mindful of what we teach, as we WILL be held to account for it!

1hole

08-14-2020, 08:53 AM

I don't expect God to see things my way.... If God does not save me because I am not worthy then so be it.

Sooo ... you don't expect God to see things your way ... but if He doesn't see things your way then He can kiss off and He will have to live eternally deprived of yourself? We know you believe you're worth being saved as due payment for what you do and have therefore earned your hoped for salvation but you haven't told us WHY you think you are so worthy! ??

Tim, your inflated ego and self importance is driving you to death because I think God can handle your loss but you'll fry apart from Him. You most certainly know heaven or hell is your own eternal choice, not His; so be it (John 3:17/18).

Yeah Tim, I know you don't bother to check the scriptures I often submit but I have to do it because otherwise we'd just be swapping "I believe this but not that" arrogant nonsense.

dtknowles

08-14-2020, 04:13 PM

If your not saved, it'll be because you didn't follow God's son and submit to his teachings (just like any of us). That, and being a false teacher. Subverting others away from the path of salvation.
We should ALL be extremely mindful of what we teach, as we WILL be held to account for it!

Yes, we all should. Be careful what bible you teach or even careful about teaching the bible. It was written by men, if you believe it is the only words of God, you are probably mistaken. If I am not saved it could be for any number of reasons most of which have nothing to do with Jesus.

Tim

dtknowles

08-14-2020, 04:15 PM

Sooo ... you don't expect God to see things your way ... but if He doesn't see things your way then He can kiss off and He will have to live eternally deprived of yourself? We know you believe you're worth being saved as due payment for what you do and have therefore earned your hoped for salvation but you haven't told us WHY you think you are so worthy! ??

Tim, your inflated ego and self importance is driving you to death because I think God can handle your loss but you'll fry apart from Him. You most certainly know heaven or hell is your own eternal choice, not His; so be it (John 3:17/18).

Yeah Tim, I know you don't bother to check the scriptures I often submit but I have to do it because otherwise we'd just be swapping "I believe this but not that" arrogant nonsense.

Preaching to me from the bible only means to me that you believe the bible. Me, not so much, bible verses rarely change my beliefs.

Tim

1hole

08-14-2020, 07:25 PM

Preaching to me from the bible only means to me that you believe the bible. Me, not so much, bible verses rarely change my beliefs.

Yes, we know, nothing shakes your deep spiritual belief in yourself. Good luck.

dannyd

08-14-2020, 10:33 PM

I don't expect God to see things my way. God will see like God always does, God sees all, we can hide nothing from God. If God does not save me because I am not worthy then so be it.

Tim

None of us are worthy of being saved that's why Jesus died on the cross. It's his free gift to us for believing, realizing we are sinner and ask for forgiveness. My opinion, there as been many a man walk from their cell to Angola's (Louisiana State Penitentiary) death house and been saved on the way just like the thief on the cross got to go to Paradise. They were saved because like the thief they had a true repetitive heart.

Dieselhorses

08-15-2020, 02:36 PM

we disagree on that and a lot more than that. But, basically, you choose to agree with yourself and i chose to agree with scripture. ??? Only one of us can be right.

He sure can! And god has said that none of us are worthy of heaven. But then i don't know which god you trust! I trust the one who says jesus is the way, the truth and the life" (john 14:6) and has written that all of our self righteousness - the very self righteousness you profess for yourself - is as filthy rags before him (isa 64:6; rom 3:10). God tells us there is one narrow way and one name to access heaven but you wrongly seek to convince people that there are many ways and a wide path to heaven, and you "know" all that because you're really smart and have it all figured out (john 14:6; act 4:12). Sadly, you know very much but you understand very little.

Wrong. You say "we can be worthy of heaven" but god says we cannot, it's much worse than hard and he knows it. So, in his love, god provided a worthy substitute to pay sin's cost for those who would totally trust in his son, the lord jesus, as saviour. I do, all christians do. But you do not; instead you're trusting in your self righteousness and expect god to see things your way instead of his way. Good luck with that.

You don't understand that "a true believer" is one who believes in loving god in the biblical way and that is what produces the good works and love you're hoping will get you into heaven - it won't.

Biblical "belief" includes trusting in, clinging to and submitting to the one believed in. But, you believe in an alphabet soup of gods, not jesus, so you've chosen the wide path that leads to hell. I don't know you so i'll take your word for how deeply you love others but i know you only have a head knowledge belief in god and reject the rest. Therefore, you only have a comfortable religion and a wimpy god (mat 7:21-23).

You think you grasp it all better than anyone else but you do not. Instead, you have fallen into adam's original-ego driven sin-trap of choosing to be your own god and deciding for yourself what is good and evil, i.e., what is right and wrong. That's sad for you and it didn't work out very well for adam either.

amen!

frkelly74

08-15-2020, 02:47 PM

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth just as in Heaven.

dtknowles

08-15-2020, 05:59 PM

None of us are worthy of being saved that's why Jesus died on the cross. It's his free gift to us for believing, realizing we are sinner and ask for forgiveness. My opinion, there as been many a man walk from their cell to Angola's (Louisiana State Penitentiary) death house and been saved on the way just like the thief on the cross got to go to Paradise. They were saved because like the thief they had a true repetitive heart.

Repent and be saved, yes.

Jesus is just a character in a book. It is not his death that matters it is message to love one another that matters. Love your fellow humans, repent your sins and be saved.

Tim

dtknowles

08-15-2020, 06:12 PM

Yes, we know, nothing shakes your deep spiritual belief in yourself. Good luck.

This is not about me. This is about saving those that need to repent their evil, hateful, unloving ways. I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved. Those that do not take it to heart will not be saved.

When Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I believe he means that you must act toward your fellow humans as he has shown, believing Jesus is God is not what saves you, heeding his message is what saves you. it is not about the man it is about the message. The message is right even if Jesus was never born. The Bibles could be total fiction but the message would still be valid. Weigh you conscience against what Jesus would do, if you do not regret every time you did not do as Jesus would have done even if it meant your death then you might not be saved. If you would not die so that others would be saved, how could you be saved.

Tim

dannyd

08-15-2020, 06:12 PM

Repent and be saved, yes.

Jesus is just a character in a book. It is not his death that matters it is message to love one another that matters. Love your fellow humans, repent your sins and be saved.

Tim

That's your opinion and that's fine before long we will both know the answer.

dtknowles

08-15-2020, 07:39 PM

That's your opinion and that's fine before long we will both know the answer.

I am not sure we will know the answer but before long it will no longer matter. If we are wrong, I doubt God is going to explain and if we are wrong I don't think there will be anything to explain it too.

Tim

dannyd

08-15-2020, 07:58 PM

I am not sure we will know the answer but before long it will no longer matter. If we are wrong, I doubt God is going to explain and if we are wrong I don't think there will be anything to explain it too.

Tim

Time will tell.

Dieselhorses

08-16-2020, 01:36 PM

This is not about me. This is about saving those that need to repent their evil, hateful, unloving ways. I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved. Those that do not take it to heart will not be saved.

When Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I believe he means that you must act toward your fellow humans as he has shown, believing Jesus is God is not what saves you, heeding his message is what saves you. it is not about the man it is about the message. The message is right even if Jesus was never born. The Bibles could be total fiction but the message would still be valid. Weigh you conscience against what Jesus would do, if you do not regret every time you did not do as Jesus would have done even if it meant your death then you might not be saved. If you would not die so that others would be saved, how could you be saved.

Tim

Why you say...
I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved.? When you believe that Jesus was a fictitious character?

dtknowles

08-16-2020, 03:06 PM

Why you say...? When you believe that Jesus was a fictitious character?

I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved. First because I think it is right. I also think if you act in concert with Jesus' teachings even if you never heard of Jesus or even if you don't believe in Jesus, you will be saved.

I never said I was sure Jesus is a fictitious character I have said I think it is likely the Jesus portrayed in the new testament is a tall tale, exaggerated and it could be Jesus was never born.

What Jesus taught, to love one another, is not a message unique to Jesus. It is a self-evident truth. To not love all of God's creations is to be evil.

Good Christians will be saved, bad Christians will not be saved.

Tim

dtknowles

08-16-2020, 04:09 PM

So if you don't believe Jesus is the son of God, how can you be a Christian at all, more less a good one

I am not a Christian. I don't believe you have to be Christian to be saved. I believe you only need to be good to be saved, Christian or not.

Tim

1hole

08-16-2020, 04:20 PM

I am not a Christian. I don't believe you have to be Christian to be saved. I believe you only need to be good to be saved, Christian or not.

If you don't believe men must be Christians (meaning followers of the Lord Christ Jesus) to be saved then what do you think men need to be saved from ... and too? And on who, or on what, do you base YOUR beliefs and suggest others follow?

dtknowles

08-16-2020, 05:10 PM

If you don't believe men must be Christians (meaning followers of the Lord Christ Jesus) to be saved then what do you think men need to be saved from ... and too? And on who, or on what, do you base YOUR beliefs and suggest others follow?

It was right there in the post before yours. "I am not a Christian. I don't believe you have to be Christian to be saved. I believe you only need to be good to be saved, Christian or not."

It is not just men who are saved it is women too. Saved is what God does when good people die. I don't know what that is but I am certain it is better than not being saved. My beliefs are based on my experience, conscience and education. I have lived, read, and learned a lot. Somethings are obvious when you take a broader view of the universe.

I suggest everyone do the right thing, be good don't be evil. Follow the 7 Cardinal Virtues and avoid the 7 Deadly Sins. Follow the Golden Rule. Obey the 5th thru the 10th biblical commandments. Make the world a better place while you are here. If you do something wrong, make it right. Be a good Samaritan. Help the poor and disadvantaged. Try to help other people smile. Give comfort to those who are hurting.

Don't be a jerk.

Tim

Dieselhorses

08-16-2020, 06:44 PM

I believe that Christians who follow Jesus' messages about how we should treat our fellow man will be saved. First because I think it is right. I also think if you act in concert with Jesus' teachings even if you never heard of Jesus or even if you don't believe in Jesus, you will be saved.

I never said I was sure Jesus is a fictitious character I have said I think it is likely the Jesus portrayed in the new testament is a tall tale, exaggerated and it could be Jesus was never born.

What Jesus taught, to love one another, is not a message unique to Jesus. It is a self-evident truth. To not love all of God's creations is to be evil.

Good Christians will be saved, bad Christians will not be saved.

Tim

Repent and be saved, yes.

Jesus is just a character in a book. It is not his death that matters it is message to love one another that matters. Love your fellow humans, repent your sins and be saved.

Tim

Yes, we are supposed to love our fellow man and do unto them as we would have done unto us, but that isn't what saves us. Yes, the Bible says "we will be judged according to our works" but that is referring to the rewards we will receive in Heaven. Not arguing the "Spirits", just saying what I learned since I was young. There was a time when thought exactly as you believe now. Then God made himself "real" in my life, touched my heart and I felt His love, mercy, grace and forgiveness all at one time. It was pretty overwhelming (in a good way!) But it was done HIS way, not the way anybody around depicted Him and in His time. And Jesus's death did matter. If it didn't then there would be NO Salvation. He was the ultimate sacrifice and this was the only way to cover the sins of all mankind-both then, now and forever. The resurrection of Jesus was necessary to fulfill God's promise.

1hole

08-16-2020, 07:46 PM

It was right there in the post before yours. "I am not a Christian. I don't believe you have to be Christian to be saved. I believe you only need to be good to be saved, Christian or not."

But my question was, and remains, to what and from what do you think people will be saved? And what evidence do you base your nebulous beliefs on?

dtknowles

08-16-2020, 11:08 PM

But my question was, and remains, to what and from what do you think people will be saved? And what evidence do you base your nebulous beliefs on?

I don't know to what or from what people will be saved. Saved is just the expression some people, mainly Christians use. I believe that when our mortal bodies perish, God will have a plan, a use maybe for some of us. I believe God will have a use for those of us who are good. If you are not good maybe your soul dies with your body or maybe you are reincarnated. Even the Bible is not clear on what comes after the death of our bodies.

Tim

dtknowles

08-16-2020, 11:24 PM

Yes, we are supposed to love our fellow man and do unto them as we would have done unto us, but that isn't what saves us. Yes, the Bible says "we will be judged according to our works" but that is referring to the rewards we will receive in Heaven. Not arguing the "Spirits", just saying what I learned since I was young. There was a time when thought exactly as you believe now. Then God made himself "real" in my life, touched my heart and I felt His love, mercy, grace and forgiveness all at one time. It was pretty overwhelming (in a good way!) But it was done HIS way, not the way anybody around depicted Him and in His time. And Jesus's death did matter. If it didn't then there would be NO Salvation. He was the ultimate sacrifice and this was the only way to cover the sins of all mankind-both then, now and forever. The resurrection of Jesus was necessary to fulfill God's promise.

I am glad you found your way. It might not be the same for others. There might not be just one way.

Tim

Thundarstick

08-17-2020, 08:24 AM

There might not be just one way.

Tim It's just as likely there might be just one way.

1hole

08-17-2020, 08:42 AM

It's just as likely there might be just one way.

Well noted. In this "what if ... ", stuff it seems some never admit their stance just may be a double edge sword. Oh well, determined self righteousness has no limits does it? Okay, yes, it does have one eternal limit and it's not a challenge or fun.

Thunder Stick

08-17-2020, 09:42 AM

I don't know to what or from what people will be saved. Saved is just the expression some people, mainly Christians use. I believe that when our mortal bodies perish, God will have a plan, a use maybe for some of us. I believe God will have a use for those of us who are good. If you are not good maybe your soul dies with your body or maybe you are reincarnated. Even the Bible is not clear on what comes after the death of our bodies.

Tim

Hi Tim!

My words mean nothing. But the Bible tells us that being good is no help. For there is no one who is good...

Romans 3:12

All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

Then what hope is there for us? We are justified freely by the grace* of Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

*Grace - God's Riches At Christ's Expense

Salvation is a free gift from God. It is not earned and there is no sliding scale of one person was more or less good than another. That would be a salvation by works. You see, Christianity is unique among all faiths. In every human religion, one must "do" something in order to obtain a reward. It is works based salvation. In Christianity it is "done" for you by Christ because He is the only one who was good among all mankind. But being our kinsman, fully human and fully God, he is our kinsman redeemer. He paid the price for our sins. We are reconciled to God through Christ alone. It is the free gift of a loving God. Gifts are not earned.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

1hole

08-17-2020, 12:21 PM

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

And that IS the gospel, i.e., the Good News of salvation is from God, not from self righteousness, lest any man should boast (Titus 3:5-7).

Virtually ALL of the (many) self righteous people I've ever met expect to "earn" their free gift and usually like to tell everyone about how many good things they do! When their error is shown they often say something like, "Well, I'm doing the best I can and if God isn't satisfied with that, so be it." They just don't get the wonderful point of the gospel so they can never know the peace of God; that's truly sad.

dannyd

08-17-2020, 01:10 PM

That's why I don't understand why more Liberals aren't saved. They will usually take anything that free.

Thunder Stick

08-17-2020, 01:44 PM

That's why I don't understand why more Liberals aren't saved. They will usually take anything that free.

LOL! :lol:

Dieselhorses

08-18-2020, 12:24 PM

That's why I don't understand why more Liberals aren't saved. They will usually take anything that free.

^^^That's classic!^^^

Dieselhorses

08-18-2020, 12:47 PM

266387

dtknowles

08-18-2020, 09:27 PM

It's just as likely there might be just one way.

If there were just one way then only one person would be saved.

There are certainly many ways but there could be a common trait, like love of Jesus and acceptance of him as your savior. I don't believe that is the case but others do. To each his own. I respect most people's beliefs. I think Buddhists, Muslims, Hindi, etc. are saved as well as Christians.

Tim

ioon44

08-19-2020, 08:32 AM

John ch 14 v 6.

1hole

08-19-2020, 08:50 AM

To each his own.

Sounds nice. But .... when the hazards are real, the failure to warn isn't nice, it's deadly neglect.

I respect most people's beliefs. I think Buddhists, Muslims, Hindi, etc. are saved as well as Christians.

You "respect" deadly error? That's sweet but it's hardly as wonderful as you seem to "think". God's heaven and hell are real, not day dreams. I respect everyone so much that I'm not indifferent to their spiritual mistakes and cry out to them in warning!

As a "highly eddicated liberal" locked in an empty spiritual world it seems you still can't grasp that Christians can - and do - respect other people without also believing we can "think" them into God's own salvation.

Christians speak for God's truth but, unlike you, we don't try to think for God.

It should be obvious even to you that God doesn't care what you think about who He is or what his salvation is. And he sure ain't Allah, et al.

exile

08-25-2021, 03:01 PM

"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (E.S.V.)

exile

Bloodman14

08-25-2021, 03:37 PM

I wanted to let all of you know that I have been paying rapt attention to this and a few other threads. I have not been in church for YEARS but have had a minor(?) relationship with God for all my life (at least since the age of accountability). Recent world events have re-awakened my interest in the end times, concerning timelines and such. Several of my questions have been answered, and the explanations have given me some comfort. I thank all of you for your comments and input.
God Bless.

dannyd

08-25-2021, 04:38 PM

It’s great to be Rapture Ready :)

Looking for the Uptaker not the Undertaker.

Spell checker: uptaker is not one word but undertaker is; guess we know how the World sees it.

Combatmedic63

01-05-2022, 05:45 PM

Maranatha Believer here! I'm definitely ready for the rapture and to leave this terrible world.

exile

01-13-2022, 05:33 PM

"Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him."

Genesis 5:24 (E.S.V.)

exile

Good Cheer

01-22-2022, 06:07 AM

Anyone familiar with Dave MacPherson's works concerning the origins of the pre-tribulation rapture theory?

augercreek

01-22-2022, 07:37 AM

Check out Johnathan Cahns' you tube videos. I believe his teachings will clarify some issues here.

Good Cheer

01-23-2022, 01:04 PM

2Thessalonians
Does it matter who's right about the theory as long as you were chosen from the beginning?
As long as you aren't deluded and believe the lie?

Good Cheer

01-24-2022, 07:58 AM

Anyone familiar with Dave MacPherson's works concerning the origins of the pre-tribulation rapture theory?

The ones I've kept are The Incredible Cover-Up and The Rapture Plot.

1hole

01-24-2022, 09:28 PM

The ones I've kept are The Incredible Cover-Up and The Rapture Plot.

Anyone wanting to get a glimpse of the when/where/why the pretrib rapture "plot" got started needs to read and understand 1 Thess 4.

Good Cheer

01-25-2022, 10:11 AM

Yeah, that's about it. Those who have already died rise first.
Then after that is when those few of us who are still in these meat suits are changed.
When that resurrection of the dead happens is really cut and dried but the many people twisting scripture to make it fit their needs are not going to put down their torque wrenches. With that in mind it would seem the best thing to do is to set the argument aside and pray they don't worship the first christ that shows up.

Fact of the matter is it's a lot more fun to discuss the birthing of the beast system any how. The system comes first and that rascal is getting ready to burst forth from Kane's chest before we know it.

1hole

01-25-2022, 12:04 PM

My "cut and paste" is broken so I'll use exile's Thess. post to give a brief pretribulation defense:

"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Paul had told the church at Thessalonica about the coming Rapture. They accepted the Rapture teaching but members of their group were dying and the living began to fear the already dead were going to miss out. Paul heard about their fear and wrote this second letter to them partly to correct that mistake in their expectations; i.e., Paul told them the dead in Christ will rise first and that information was comforting!

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

This is the Rapture, meaning it's an event to snatch up believers and it seems to occur pre-tribulation - it's a "SURPRISE!" event. Note that there is NOT a word about Christ coming all the way down here to set up his 1,000 year Kingdom on earth at the time, itonly says that believers - the Church - will be called UP into the heavens to be with Him.

The common idea that the Rapture and so called "End of Time as we Know It" is the same event is CLEARLY NOT TRUE!

Time wise, the broad historical sequence the Bible gives us is: Rapture; 7 Years of Tribulation/Great Tribulation; Return of the Lord; 1,000 Kingdom; release of Satan and his final war; seperation of sheep and goats and the Great White Throne Judgements; eternity! Thus, there will be not less than 1,007 years between the Rapture and the final - second death - judgements.

Finally, it's not knowing too much about end times that causes confusion. Confusion is caused by ignorance of the truth and ignorance is caused by too little personal study; seems people who actually know something about Bible prophecy are much less likely to swallow a load of religious B.S. from some half-baked end-times goofus.

Johnny Diamond

01-25-2022, 12:52 PM

1hole, I concur wholeheartedly, and see NO need to add or take away!
Johnny.

FINEM RESPICE ~ MEMENTO MORI

Good Cheer

01-26-2022, 11:41 AM

Anyone wanting to get a glimpse of the when/where/why the pretrib rapture "plot" got started needs to read and understand 1 Thess 4.

After a few decades of looking at the different theories I've decided that it is divisiveness, that not one of the rapture theories is unambiguously supported by scripture, that the diehard proponents of each theory refuse to relinquish their torque wrenches, that whatever happens is going to be His way and that the toes on my meat suit will likely curl up first.

1hole

01-26-2022, 12:59 PM

After a few decades of looking at the different theories I've decided that it is divisiveness, that not one of the rapture theories is unambiguously supported by scripture, ....

You're right that the doctrines of eschatology are not neatly gathered in one small place to simplify it for casual examination by casual people and without study. In fact, that's what Biblical "study" is about as Paul put it to Timothy (2 Tim 5:15) and, by extension, to the rest of us. If all understanding was childishly easy it wouldn't require much "study" at all ... but we are grown ups and study is exactly what we are told to do!

Division comes when one child disagrees with another without a firm foundation. Forcefully proclaiming, "I believe thus and so..." without accurate Biblical support is childish.

... that the diehard proponents of each theory refuse to relinquish their torque wrenches, that whatever happens is going to be His way ...

Doctrinal positions often get established by denominational traditions and/or some established firmly "prophet", often totally devoid of any significant Bible support. Left unchallenged a traditional theory becomes "truth" to its unquestioning followers. THAT is why the religious Jews of Jesus' day rejected their Messiah and THAT was, and still is about a lot of other details, a meaningful mistake!

Thing is, a lot of ideas can be formed on isolated bits of scripture but wrong ideas always leave stray bits that just don't fit the theory. WHEN WE FINALLY GET IT RIGHT ALL OF THE BIBLICAL DATA MUST FIT WITHOUT FORCE! It's taken me decades of study to get my beliefs loose strings to fit together properly.

Good Cheer

01-26-2022, 03:07 PM

1hole,
As you are aware I'm not a devotee of pretrib rapture theory. You are and I don't have a problem with that.

1hole

01-26-2022, 07:56 PM

1hole,
As you are aware I'm not a devotee of pretrib rapture theory.

I gave a short but focused response to the rapture issue as Paul discussed it in 2 Thess. Now you tell me you're not a devotee of pretrib rapture but you don't say a thing about WHY you're not a pretriib "devotee", OR anything at all about what you do think about the rapture. So, okay, you disagree with me but we already knew that. But, knowing no more about your rapture belief than you disagree with me really doesn't advance your no doubt sincerely held point of view an inch does it?

You are and I don't have a problem with that.

Do we have "a problem"? Heavens no!

Cheer, I believe you're a blood bought brother in Christ. So, even with your obvious theological imperfections (;)), I would be delighted to share a lengthy huntin', fishin' or Christian mission trip with you.

I fully agree that nothing about theological disagreements with anyone here should or ever would be personally offensive to me.

If respectful and friendly doctrinal disagreements, even while strongly searching for answers, were impossible very few of us would have many church friends. (I have a lot of church friends and I suspect you do too!) Now I ask:

1) What do you believe is the biggest error to a pretrib rapture?
2) What scripture(s) do you base your belief on?

Good Cheer

01-27-2022, 06:08 AM

I'm not playing with your wrench.
We need to be ready for when we meet Him.

Lloyd Smale

01-27-2022, 06:19 AM

when one trys to tell me how God thinks and has to use big words and fancy talk. I tend to avoid it. God is much more simple then that. I always got a kick out of bible experts preaching on a gun forum. In my opinion it should even be allowed. If you want to argue scripture go to a bible fourm or your preacher. Problem with that is most that post on gun fourm would get burried by someone that really knows. Thats why there here.

Good Cheer

01-27-2022, 07:50 AM

I like it because I'm a happy clinger.:guntootsmiley:

1hole

01-27-2022, 09:20 PM

... I always got a kick out of bible experts preaching on a gun forum. In my opinion it should even be allowed. If you want to argue scripture go to a bible fourm or your preacher.

Lloyd, if I can follow all that correctly, and IF the "Deep Theology" label on this forum is correct, and if the label with "The Rapture" on this thread tells you anything at all it seems you should know we have done exactly what you have taken the time to suggest.

What puzzles me is why you seem to feel compelled to read and make negative comments on forums, threads, people and topics you profess to object to. It's really easy for people like you to avoid people like us.

You don't even need an "Ignore" feature to prevent yourself from reading anything we post and we won't be offended if you don't. In due respect for your deeply held religious sensitivities, why don't you try that? :)

Kosh75287

01-27-2022, 09:39 PM

Are you SERIOUS?!? I'M not even ready for the rush-hour TRAFFIC that I must face in the morning!
RAPTURE?!?! You want me to ponder the deeper metaphysical and theological implications of the world suddenly ending, while I'M still trying to figure out what makes TEFLON stick to FRYING PANS!?! No more, I BEG YOU!

1hole

01-27-2022, 10:38 PM

But Kosh, the Rapture of believers is easy. And heaven will be much better for blood bought Christians than most people understand; that's why I LOVE to talk about it!

The next prophetic event in the Bible is the "Surprise guys, here I am!" rapture. Right then, both "dead" and living Christians get remade and we'll finally be really alive, then, in the twinkling of an eye, we'll all be "caught up" (raptured) and leave to be with Jesus in heaven for at least seven years. During that time nothing that happens back on Earth will have any impact on us.

(After the seven years of Tribulation will be the second coming of the Lord, him along with us, all wearing white choir robes and riding on white horses, to set up His 1,000 year kingdom on earth!)

That's it buddy, that's the sum total of the Rapture to the end in a nutshell. And I do look forward to it!. :)

.429&H110

01-28-2022, 12:00 AM

Don't miss the Boat:
You might sit on the dock waiting for the Boat, and argue with the crowd on the dock about what the Boat will look like or who can get on it. You could sit on the dock and read the Book about the Boat. For me, I want to go find those who might miss the Boat, time is short to reach people who don't know about Jesus, so they can choose or be chosen. I believe the Lord's arrival will settle all doubts and fears. Forever. Soon.

Even so, Lord Jesus come quickly. Amen.

Rfeustel

01-28-2022, 12:16 AM

After a few decades of looking at the different theories I've decided that it is divisiveness, that not one of the rapture theories is unambiguously supported by scripture, that the diehard proponents of each theory refuse to relinquish their torque wrenches, that whatever happens is going to be His way and that the toes on my meat suit will likely curl up first.

GC: I kind of got to the same place. I find it fascinating how our adversary can create division over topics of debate within the Church (ala Screwtape Letters kind of stuff). Pre, Mid, Post has split churches.

Lloyd Smale

01-28-2022, 06:34 AM

Lloyd, if I can follow all that correctly, and IF the "Deep Theology" label on this forum is correct, and if the label with "The Rapture" on this thread tells you anything at all it seems you should know we have done exactly what you have taken the time to suggest.

What puzzles me is why you seem to feel compelled to read and make negative comments on forums, threads, people and topics you profess to object to. It's really easy for people like you to avoid people like us.

You don't even need an "Ignore" feature to prevent yourself from reading anything we post and we won't be offended if you don't. In due respect for your deeply held religious sensitivities, why don't you try that? :)

because as long as i stick by the rules i can post my opinion. EVEN if it contridicts yours. there are moderators here that determine if my posts break rules. Not self appointed forum police. Want my real opinion. Ive been on this site since its inception. For at least half of that time NOBODY talked religion or even politics. It was about casting bullets. Boggles my mind that someone would even come to a cast bullet forum and want to talk religion. Theres hundreds of religion sites you can post on and argue your belief that your right and someone else is wrong. What ive found is on about any gun site that allows religion to be talked about is it doesnt nothing but cause bad feelings. Most of the time posts are from people who come here because theyd get ate for lunch on a forum where people actually knew and studied the bible. So dont judge me unless you want to be judged. But i believe the bible says theres only ONE judge. But if i broke a rule feel free to contact a moderator. Maybe im wrong and have broke some rule (forum rule not your rule) i have done it in the past. But until i do break a rule please dont tell me what i can read and what i can reply to,

Good Cheer

01-28-2022, 06:46 AM

GC: I kind of got to the same place. I find it fascinating how our adversary can create division over topics of debate within the Church (ala Screwtape Letters kind of stuff). Pre, Mid, Post has split churches.

Uh oh. Went to my semi-annual check up yesterday.
Blood pressure is great, cholesterol is great...
Might live longer than I thought.

You know Rfeustel, there are so many wonderfully amazing aspects and happenings in this reality that others call a religion, so much we can discuss and enjoy without butting heads over where in the chain of events we'll see Jesus face to face. Yeah, we shouldn't concentrate on something that's so custom made to order for driving a wedge. But, that's my opinion and that said, I'm bowing out of this thread because obviously it was started with pretrib rapture acceptance as baseline.

1hole

01-28-2022, 11:52 AM

because as long as i stick by the rules i can post my opinion.

Lloyd, I don't know what you're objecting to. Note that I didn't even hint you not post anything you wish, I only suggested you not read posts you object to if they bring you pain. Rules or no rules, your strongly worded objections to posts on this site's clearly labeled religious forum seems to be a bit overbearing. :)

Ive been on this site since its inception.

Ah. Perhaps we've gotten to the real basis of your presumptions!

Actually, I've been here quite awhile myself but I've never presumed my date of enlistment grants me any automatic stature over newer guys.

For at least half of that time NOBODY talked religion or even politics. It was about casting bullets.

Okay. Do you feel the site managers have allowed topics that are too far outside your comfort range? If so, the genie is really out of the bottle now so what do you think they should do?

Boggles my mind that someone would even come to a cast bullet forum and want to talk religion. Theres hundreds of religion sites you can post on...

Some minds are more easily boggled than others but the clear path to you not seeing religion threads at all is still before us.

But until i do break a rule please dont tell me what i can read and what i can reply to,

Fully agree. And, ditto to you. :2_high5:

Hoping you have a very nice day.....

1hole

01-28-2022, 02:36 PM

Don't miss the Boat: You might sit on the dock waiting for the Boat, and argue with the crowd on the dock about what the Boat will look like or who can get on it. You could sit on the dock and read the Book about the Boat.

I may be wrong but I believe everyone seriously interested in the Boat is already in it.

For me, I want to go find those who might miss the Boat, time is short to reach people who don't know about Jesus, so they can choose or be chosen.

Time is indeed short and your's is a common hope but it has to ignore that each day far more people die going to hell than to heaven. Therefore, I hope the Lord comes for his church soon but I also hope he won't be asking me if his timing is right!

I believe the Lord's arrival will settle all doubts and fears. Forever. Soon.

Right on!

Lloyd Smale

01-28-2022, 03:29 PM

Lloyd, I don't know what you're objecting to. Note that I didn't even hint you not post anything you wish, I only suggested you not read posts you object to if they bring you pain. Rules or no rules, your strongly worded objections to posts on this site's clearly labeled religious forum seems to be a bit overbearing. :)

Ah. Perhaps we've gotten to the real basis of your presumptions!

Actually, I've been here quite awhile myself but I've never presumed my date of enlistment grants me any automatic stature over newer guys.

Okay. Do you feel the site managers have allowed topics that are too far outside your comfort range? If so, the genie is really out of the bottle now so what do you think they should do?

Some minds are more easily boggled than others but the clear path to you not seeing religion threads at all is still before us.

Fully agree. And, ditto to you. :2_high5:

Hoping you have a very nice day.....

takes more then that kind of crap to pull my chain. God bless you!!!

1hole

01-28-2022, 04:10 PM

I'm bowing out of this thread because obviously it was started with pretrib rapture acceptance as baseline.

Cheer, IF you're right about the O.P.'s point of view, so what, change our minds! We have no fixed borders surrounding our discussions, this is an open forum and everyone is free to speak.

You said you don't believe in a "pre-trib" rapture. However, the only reason you've given so far is simply that you don't "believe" in a pre-tribulation rapture. Okay, so you don't believe in it but this being the "Deep Theology" forum invites discussions based on more than "I believe this but I don't believe that." Just posting "I do/don't believe" anything is hardly a convincing position.

By definition, "Deep Theology" means a serious study of scripture. But, a deep - or even shallow - theological "study" without scriptural backing really isn't theology at all, it's just human religious opinion and there are some dangerously stormy waters there!

So, again I'll ask you to cross the invisible topic lines and tell us What you DO believe according to your own pre/mid/post trib Rapture "theory" and what scripture(s) do you base your beliefs on?

Who knows, you may prove yourself to be right .... but it'll probably take more than just saying "I believe this and that and you should too!"

exile

11-19-2023, 08:51 PM

"And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.'"

Acts 1:9-11 (E.S.V.)

exile

Bloodman14

11-21-2023, 04:50 PM

Alabama358

11-21-2023, 07:03 PM

320207

Recent events have prompted me to do something I haven't done in 30 years; open my Bible. I've been questioning my own salvation in regards to the rapture, and along the way, I found this. Very helpful to me. I am going to make an appointment to speak with the pastor at one of the facilities (nursing home) that I service to speak further.

Bravo Brother!!
The best course of action a person can take when they have doubts is to open the bible with a glad heart and get in to the Word of GOD.

Some folks can really get on Tilt when they start to have doubts... but consider this, John the Baptist doubted Christ himself and Jesus said that there was never a better man born to a woman. that's a pretty awesome reference considering the competition with the likes of Moses, Elijah, Joshua, David and all the other greats.

Matthew 11:3-4
2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

Matthew11:11
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

The Chart is a good one... I only see a few discrepancies. Thanks for posting it

Bloodman14

11-22-2023, 06:03 PM

Alabama, what discrepancies do you note? I read the appropriate verses and it seems to be right in line with scripture.

Alabama358

11-22-2023, 11:13 PM

Alabama, what discrepancies do you note? I read the appropriate verses and it seems to be right in line with scripture.

The biggest discrepancy is that whomever built that chart (and it is a nice one) assumed that 1 Thessalonians 16-17 happens before even the first Seal is opened but with a little study and comparing Scripture to Scripture it is easy to see it just isnt so... For example

The First letter Paul wrote to the Christian church members of Thessalonica

1 Thessalonians 16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Second letter Paul regarding the same subject to the same church members to relieve some doubt that they had missed the day of the Lord

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

As one can easily see, Paul's second letter tells the church not to let anyone deceive them that the day of the LORD has already happened, and it will not happen until there is a great falling away (apostasy, many folks turning their back on Christ teachings) and the man of sin, the son of perdition revealed and the abomination of desolation has taken place.
Pretty much everyone agrees that the abomination of desolation happens at the midpoint of the 7 years.

Matthew 24:1-51 (Christ disciples came to him and ask for the details of his return, and he lays it out plain and simple)
Mark 13:1-37
Luke 21 1-38
Revelation 6: 1-17

All of the above are great books, chapter and verses with regards to end times rapture study... they all show Christ return at the midpoint of the 7 years after the abomination of desolation and also after the Sun & Moon are darkened

So the red arrow that shows the rapture happening before even the first seal is opened is just not Biblical, I would move that to just after the 6th seal (that is how Christ describes it in Matthew 24 to the earliest Church members and I think he knows)
If anyone starts trying to feed you the "it has to be a total surprise" or "7 year marriage" and church members are secretly disappeared before even the wars and rumors of wars (1st seal) Ask them for chapter and verse to back it up...
My guess is that they will not provide any actual scripture but will give you a bunch of platitudes and cute sayings and finally will tell you that you just need to be able to rightfully divide the word to understand.

If a person reads and studies the above listed chapters with an open mind for understanding they will probably get it

I have them all (book chapter and verse) laid out in a spreadsheet so that you can look at them side by side... but I cant figure out how to insert it into the thread... if anyone can tell me how to do it I would be happy to share it.

Bloodman14

11-23-2023, 10:18 AM

Alabama, if you could do that, I will print it off and show it to my pastor, just to see what he says.

Thundarstick

11-23-2023, 01:44 PM

https://youtu.be/Oaogr-DtKjI?si=MTa0ebHSgD-lYmpM

The latest in Dr. Tabor's review of end time prophecies.

ioon44

11-24-2023, 09:40 AM

https://youtu.be/Oaogr-DtKjI?si=MTa0ebHSgD-lYmpM

The latest in Dr. Tabor's review of end time prophecies.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=Dr.+Tabor&mid=9A462E4397D3442DB5279A462E4397D3442DB527&FORM=VIRE

Thundarstick

11-25-2023, 07:29 AM

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=Dr.+Tabor&mid=9A462E4397D3442DB5279A462E4397D3442DB527&FORM=VIRE

What's this video have to do with rapture theology, or prophecies?

Good Cheer

04-20-2024, 10:52 AM

It sure is quiet around here.

JonB_in_Glencoe

04-20-2024, 11:05 AM

It sure is quiet around here.

Last night, I went to the movie "Civil War"
I hope I get raptured outta here before that happens.

Nines&Twos

04-20-2024, 11:32 AM

It sure is quiet around here.

Let's hope it's quiet cause everyone's got their nose buried in our Father's Word ....curing the biblical illiteracy that is rampant in the world today.

Adam Helmer

04-20-2024, 01:21 PM

I am ready for the Rapture. I hope it comes long before Trump gets indicted a dozen more times while NO Democrat beginning with AG Halder and others are immune from prosecution.

I know the Lord is in charge, but why does He permit ongoing Trump persecution? This is His world and we are not privy to His works, but I pray daily for insight.

Be well.

Adam

Nines&Twos

04-20-2024, 01:45 PM

Uh oh. Went to my semi-annual check up yesterday.
Blood pressure is great, cholesterol is great...
Might live longer than I thought.

You know Rfeustel, there are so many wonderfully amazing aspects and happenings in this reality that others call a religion, so much we can discuss and enjoy without butting heads over where in the chain of events we'll see Jesus face to face. Yeah, we shouldn't concentrate on something that's so custom made to order for driving a wedge. But, that's my opinion and that said, I'm bowing out of this thread because obviously it was started with pretrib rapture acceptance as baseline.

You mean you don't wanna fly away?...even though no one's actually flying anywhere

Yeshua comes one time. ONE time. When his feet hit the mount of olives all who are here will be changed into our celestial bodies in the twinkling of an eye and the 1K yr reign begins.
I can't understand why anyone wants to fly away knowing when the 7th trump sounds...that's the farthest one out, we can all count....Christ comes HERE. Not here, then, there and back again (that's a hobbits tale) HERE. People can fly away with the 1st messiah if they chose to and many will for many will be deceived...but as for me...I'm here waiting and working in the field NOT to be the 1st taken by the spurious messiah.
I feel sorry for those deceived...so desperate to escape that they would believe a lie...with a bit of help from our Father who will help you believe a lie if one chooses (2Thess2:11)

This won't win me any friends but its an honest question...is it fear? Does the little pissant false messiah frighten people SO bad that instead of making a stand as one of Father's elect, they'd desire to run from the enemy? Pfft!!! Satan can do as he pleases...if he wants my head....Molon Labe...The 1st prophecy of the Word SHALL come to pass...half of it already has....Lucifer will bruise HIS heels but HE will bruise his head ...His heels were bruised when they were nailed to the cross....Who wants to share some popcorn and watch the show when The Master bruises his head?

As my earthly teacher loved to say...Just winnin' friends and influencing people here.

Bowdrie

04-20-2024, 01:55 PM

I've sometimes found that when going over Scripture that one kind of has to become like Chief Inspector Clouseau. LOL.
In other words, when you are trying to conflate/compare different verses to examine the Who/What/Where/When/Why.
God's plan thru the Bible covers two courses, the first course is Believer vs Unbeliever, the second is Jew vs Gentile.
Much of the Bible is written to Jewish people, (God's plan for them,) and some is written for the Gentiles, and some is written for both.
The apostle Paul wrote much about how gentiles were to be included just as much as Jews when they became believers.
So as we move into the "Church Age" in Acts there takes a turn where the Jews have to accept the gentile believers as being "spiritually circumcised" just as the Jewish believers and become "one and all" of the same spirit.
When Jesus was speaking in Matthew 24 He was speaking to Jews, they asked Him what would be the signs of His return.
They were not asking about a "Rapture", they were asking about the signs of His "return", ie., His physical return to earth, and He told them what would take place before He did return, not about a "Rapture" event.
If taken to the extreme of being "literal" one could say that the "Falling Away" started with Adam/Eve, most assuredly the whole world had "fallen away" when God closed the door of the Ark.
In Ezekial God said that when Israel was re-born as a nation that they would worship Him, and they did, (for a while,) now Israel is almost completely secular.
The entire 7 years of Tribulation is "God's Wrath". In 1st Thessalonians Paul says that "Us" are NOT appointed unto wrath.
Who is the "Us"? It's the "Church" the body of believers.
The pictures that Paul shows in 1st. Thessalonians and 2nd, Thessalonians are not depicting the same thing.
A Who/What/Where/When/Why chart will show that, and even the description of the signs in the heavens/sky makes it pretty clear.
The Rapture "Comes as a thief in the night", in the "coming to earth" the whole sky blows up, (so to speak,) and the whole world mourns at seeing the Lord return.
In 1st, Thessalonians Paul is writing about the Rapture.
In 2nd. Thessalonians Paul is writing about the physical return of Jesus to earth.

Bowdrie

04-20-2024, 05:58 PM

We can find several symbolic passages in Scripture about a "Rapture event", here are a couple of them;
Rahab got out of Jericho before the destruction and escaped being killed and 7 years of war by having "Faith".
The parable of the prodigal son, the son left the "world of sin", the Father ran to greet him.
They met in the middle, the Father didn't enter the sinful world, but met his son and took him "home".
Jesus said "You believe because you have seen, blessed are those who believe without seeing".
We haven't seen the Rapture or Jesus yet, but we believe by "faith".
After the Rapture many will believe, they will be "saved", (and give their lives for their belief,) but they do not receive the "blessings" that we who believe by Faith will receive.

Bowdrie

04-20-2024, 11:18 PM

One can come to their own conclusions about numbers/percentages of those who believe in the Rapture. I think that a few believe in a post-trib, many believe in a mid-trib, and most believe in a pre-trib.
Those who believe in "no rapture" are the ones that really are out in left field.
That completely negates what Paul wrote.
It's spread all over that some Anglican Priest named John Darby "invented" the rapture, nothing could be farther from the truth.
He did a similar thing to what Martin Luther had done almost 400 years before. He stood-up to the false teachings of the so-called "church" and called them out on their failure to recognize what I tried to say a couple of posts back; That from Isaiah 32, That Israel and the Church were distinct, that God "had a separate plan" for Israel vs Church, a different Dispensation if you will.
I've a friend who subscribes to the "no rapture" school of thought, asking him about Christians going thru the Tribulation. His answer is; "Well, all the Christians got to get together and have food/water/medicine stored-up so they don't have to take the mark to buy or sell, and if they have "Faith" they'll be able to hang on till the end when Jesus will come back to save them",,,, and so on and so forth.
He clearly doesn't have a clue. Will you watch all the older Christians die from no medicine/doctors? Will you watch your babies/children die from starvation?
He has no idea that 1/2 of the entire population left on this earth will die during that 7 years.
The life expectancy of a Christian during that time is almost zero. Christians will all end-up like Anne Frank, they'll be reported to the anti-christ authorities in exchange for some clean water or a 1/2lb of hamburger.
If you told someone who you were trying to lead to Christ that they would have to go thru that for 7 years they'd tell you they wouldn't want any part of Christianity.

.429&H110

04-21-2024, 01:18 AM

I believe in the rapture, but not the world's arguments or explanations...
Been through Revelation in Sunday school four (4) times in two churches
Excellent teachers, deacons, went through word by word, Greek and all
Compare Revelation 1 the description of Christ with the armor of God, Ephesian 6
Beautiful!
Ever notice that Revelation is written in the present tense?
Like it was written as it happened?
When Christ came to rapture John?
Like He did Enoch and Elijah?
I believe I am a Preterist, that God kept his Promise to John.
And I believe God will keep His promise to me.

I will warn that the world is using fear to persuade, fear of dying,
fear of the unknown, fear of God's Judgement, fear of a Second Coming.
Certainly does sell books, keeps utube busy.
But fear keeps people out of church, fear of rejection.
Won't work, people won't stay scared, they get angry.
And yah, they are angry...

If we vote down the anti-christ(s) they are powerless
If we us all of us stand up to the heathen, we win every time.
Christ gave us the Great Commission for this purpose.
Do It. Or die trying, Christ gave us that option, too.

The nattering acolytes of scientism believe in their creation
and they believe that someday the proton will decay, or gravity will make a big crunch
the difference between a young and old earther is funding
I do not need a telescope to see the sky.

What did Jesus say in Matthew 24 and at the end of John?

John 21
...Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

18Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. 19This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Jesus and the Beloved Apostle

20Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? 21Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

24This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Yup, I'm a Preterist.
Not a Johnian or Paulian or Danielian but a Gospel Christian.
Glad He didn't leave me as He found me.

Bowdrie

04-21-2024, 04:03 AM

Yup, I'm a Preterist.

So, you believe that the prophecies in Daniel were all fulfilled by the first century AD, and that Israel found the end of its fulfillment as a "Christian" church when it was destroyed in 70AD?
Ah, it's sad for the Jesuits that started that whole concept and the misguided Protestants who accepted it, trying their best to mold Catholicism and Protestantism into a happy family.
For the Catholics it was a good way to eliminate any thoughts or hope for a better future, thereby keeping their "flock" to the grindstone of "pray and pay" or God will throw you away.
For the Protestants who went along it had a similar appeal, "All that stuff in the NT is old-hat, WE will tell you what to believe",, after all, WE are the "educated ones".
Mores the pity.

Thundarstick

04-21-2024, 05:06 AM

Preterist is about as close as I could come to describe my beliefs. I get a chuckle reading all the "rapture" theorists mumblings. It's well-known there where no repture teachings in the early church, and none until Darby's influence followed by Schofield latching onto it and publishing his reference Bible. Rapture theology, with the condoning of the state Israel paving the way for Christ return,is an almost wholly American based belief.

Nines&Twos

04-21-2024, 06:28 AM

Don't leave out Margret Macdonald...the great dreamer...:roll:

Thundarstick

04-21-2024, 08:42 AM

Don't leave out Margret Macdonald...the great dreamer...:roll:

Didn't remember her name at the time.

Good Cheer

04-21-2024, 09:09 AM

Considering the extent of the desired depopulation indicated in the public statements and published writings of our betters, well, perhaps it won't quite be the means envisioned by many but to all appearances lots of us are going to be with Jesus in this run up to the third day before He sets foot upon the mount.

I'm not persuaded with the arguments either way though I've paid attention to both sides.
I recognize the fallacious interpretations of scripture and just have to shake my head that people willingly fall to it because it supports their preferred scenario. And it makes me think there's something we're all missing because there has never been a preacher / teacher that I didn't have at least some controversy with.

.429&H110

04-21-2024, 07:17 PM

My idea is about the time Paul was writing Thessalonians
Our Savior was bringing John home
Must have been something amazing to see.
Too bad Enoch didn't write his account too. Oh, wait, he did.

The Holy Spirit compelled everybody to write all this down.

As a Bible literalist, to me this is a history written by God.
The Prophesy part is God's Promises.
America has forgotten our promise to God.

I have a crew of tinfoil hats in the family,
and it's either the second coming of Trump or Jesus,
told them to go read their Bible this time.

Nines&Twos

04-21-2024, 07:31 PM

I'm not persuaded with the arguments either way though I've paid attention to both sides.
I recognize the fallacious interpretations of scripture and just have to shake my head that people willingly fall to it because it supports their preferred scenario. And it makes me think there's something we're all missing because there has never been a preacher / teacher that I didn't have at least some controversy with.

Setting aside ALL differences...THIS is why anyone who is serious about understanding our Father's Word MUST have a Strong's concordance at minimum and a Green's Interlinear is really nice as well. I like Moffat's translation too but E.W. Bullinger's Companion bible is my current study bible. Having only one translation .....and one of the newer translations especially.... is a pretty bad idea. Don't get me wrong...I'd heap rather have a person content with their NIV and never getting any deeper... than some creep reading anton lavey's filth....but this IS the 'Deep Theological Discussion' sub-forum and how deep can you get on only one translation? Father preserves his word and if you seek Him and His wisdom...he WILL show you what He wants you to know. ....maybe not what you want to know...but what HE wants you to know so he can put you to use. ....that's my 2¢ and with current inflation thats worth....yeah.:-P

Good Cheer

04-21-2024, 08:50 PM

Setting aside ALL differences...THIS is why anyone who is serious about understanding our Father's Word MUST have a Strong's concordance at minimum and a Green's Interlinear is really nice as well. I like Moffat's translation too but E.W. Bullinger's Companion bible is my current study bible. Having only one translation .....and one of the newer translations especially.... is a pretty bad idea. Don't get me wrong...I'd heap rather have a person content with their NIV and never getting any deeper... than some creep reading anton lavey's filth....but this IS the 'Deep Theological Discussion' sub-forum and how deep can you get on only one translation? Father preserves his word and if you seek Him and His wisdom...he WILL show you what He wants you to know. ....maybe not what you want to know...but what HE wants you to know so he can put you to use. ....that's my 2¢ and with current inflation thats worth....yeah.:-P

[smilie=w:

https://i.imgur.com/8dLzu3C.jpg

Bowdrie

04-21-2024, 10:40 PM

Having several Bibles of various translative efforts is all well and good.
I'm quite sure that people in many repressive areas of the world feel fortunate if they can have, (and perhaps have to keep hidden,) one or two of the Gospels, yet they believe in the Lord with all their heart.
I believe we have a "finished work", and John warns us against either adding-to or taking away.
Whether one wishes to include the Apocrypha could be argued without gain.
That said, one can only imagine the scrolls of "first person" accounts written during the span of perhaps 200BC to 200AD, more specifically during the years of our Lords "life and times".
The library at Alexandria most certainly contained some treasures that are only imaginable.
What might be hidden away in the bowels of the Vatican?
Let us give Praise to the Lord that much of what we discuss, (or viewpoints taken,) are not "mission critical" to the main objective; To spread the Gospel of Salvation.

Nines&Twos

04-22-2024, 05:19 AM

Good Cheer

04-22-2024, 05:59 AM

NICE Good Cheer! Some day I'd like a 'good' printing of the original 1611. Not that I would ever read much of it...confusing as Olde English is...but the translators and scholars who compiled what we know as 'The Bible' wrote a letter and attached it warning against translation and interpretation errors, fully admitting their work was not without flaws. One fine example can be found in Luke 14:26. Its a sad person indeed that really believes Christ would tell anyone they must hate their family. The Greek word used in this instance actually translates to 'Love Less' and that is exactly as it should be...you must love your family less than Christ if you are to be a true follower. I think Jesus Christ was/is rather put out by the idea someone would imply He means for you to hate your family. Several more instances occur and even MORE when you get out of KJV translations and get into more modern translations.

The Strong's, the Companion and the Interlinear are some power packed study tools.
Once the computers came along to let us do searches and compile searchable lists they complement our studies but the best computers are still between our ears and the very best study tools are still ink on paper.

Hey, by the way, yesterday we traveled a couple of hours to the christening of a new member of the family and were treated to a pastor's presentation on the four different words for the four different kinds of love featured in scripture. It's a fun example of translations.

Alabama358

04-22-2024, 10:49 AM

This is the kind of garbage people pushing a false (John Nelson Darby) doctrine spew.

Bowdie... Please explain which parts of the New Testament is written mostly to the Jews? The 4 Gospels? Acts? Romans? I could go on listing the books but that would be kind of silly. one might be able to say the book of Hebrews was written to the Jews but then a person would have to read it to find out that its purpose is to say that there is no separate program for the Jews.

Much of the Bible is written to Jewish people, (God's plan for them,) and some is written for the Gentiles, and some is written for both.

Why is it some folks would have you believe that most of the Bible is written to "the Jews"

It is possible that from this construct they have created a platform to rebuke someone making any of the multitudes of scripture references that totally crush the John Nelson Darby false teachings, by simply saying "that part is written to the Jews"

But What does the actual Scripture say about the Jew and the gentile... For the sake of space I will only list a few below

Galatians 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

1Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

When Jesus was speaking in Matthew 24 He was speaking to Jews, they asked Him what would be the signs of His return.
They were not asking about a "Rapture", they were asking about the signs of His "return", ie., His physical return to earth, and He told them what would take place before He did return, not about a "Rapture" event.
Who are the "They" that ask him??? not some random Jews, it was only his apostles

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

So you think that the Apostles, The born again followers of Christ... Those who were at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended etc. are considered "the Jews" and not" the church."
Or you believe that they are the members of the Bride of Christ and went to him as "the Body of Christ" "The Church" and said Lord gives us the playbook of the end times? So the Lord gave them his teaching in Matthew 24 but forgot to say "oh by the way....forget all that I just said because that is for "the Jews" there is a different program for ya'll.

The entire 7 years of Tribulation is "God's Wrath". In 1st Thessalonians Paul says that "Us" are NOT appointed unto wrath.

Hogwash....Supply one solid chapter & verse (from the Bible) that says the whole 7 year period is "Gods Wrath" there isn't one, that again is just more Darby Dung!
According to scripture the actual sequence of events goes Tribulation - Great Tribulation - Gods wrath

A Who/What/Where/When/Why chart will show that, and even the description of the signs in the heavens/sky makes it pretty clear.
The Rapture "Comes as a thief in the night", in the "coming to earth" the whole sky blows up, (so to speak,) and the whole world mourns at seeing the Lord return.
In 1st, Thessalonians Paul is writing about the Rapture. (see below)
In 2nd. Thessalonians Paul is writing about the physical return of Jesus to earth.

If 1st Thessalonians as you say is "the Rapture" then the whole thief in the night thingy goes out the window if you are a child of the light (born again saved person)

1 Thessalonians 5: 4-5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Alabama358

04-22-2024, 01:17 PM

Bowdrie

04-22-2024, 02:34 PM

Alabama358, please, don't be pedantic.
You ask me about what parts of NT are written mostly to Jews, but then you quote me as saying that much of the Bible is written to Jews.
Yes, much of the Bible is written to Jews, why would you hammer me on what I didn't say.
Consider this; If we think that Adam/Eve are ~4,000BC and Genisis ends with the death of Jacob, we can see that about 1/3 of the entire timeline from Adam to us now in 2024 is contained in just that first book.
The NT is a "new" covenant, the cross event changed things, that is so self-evident that it can't be argued.
You asked about who are "they",, please consider CONTEXT, it ain't rocket science.
I expect that someone would already know that Jesus was speaking to His disciples in Matt 24, when I said "they" one should know that "they" were the disciples.
The "Church"?
I never said that the "church" excluded Jews, nor was the "church" only for Gentiles.
But I ask you to consider this; studies/reports conclude that only about 1% of the Jewish population of Israel today self-identifies as "Born Again Christian", and Israel has less than 10M people, it doesn't take much math to figure out that across the entire world that the "Church" of "Born Again Believers" is probably somewhere ~99.9999% Gentile, if not more.
The "Thief in the night"?
Of course, when Paul references "children of light" vs "children of darkness", he's differentiating between saved and un-saved, that's so easy to see.
We, the saved will "see" the day approaching, the un-saved will not, Jesus will come as a thief in the night to them, (the unsaved).
Paul had to tell them all that, some of them thought the Rapture had already happened and Paul is saying, "No, you're in the Light, why would you even need to ask me?"
Many theologians consider the Bible, (taken as a whole, both OT/NT,) is somewhere between ~20>30% prophetic, some even more.
But when time overtakes prophesy than the prophesy is no longer, it becomes history.
If someone takes the view of a Preterist, in that all had been fulfilled by ~100AD, then to that person the whole Bible is just a history book with the exceptions of passages relating to our "going to Heaven" when we die, (we assume we're not dead yet).
For that viewpoint I have no answer except to type a quote;
"For those who believe no explanation is necessary, for those who don't believe no explanation is possible".

Alabama358

04-22-2024, 04:51 PM

You asked about who are "they",, please consider CONTEXT, it ain't rocket science.
I expect that someone would already know that Jesus was speaking to His disciples in Matt 24, when I said "they" one should know that "they" were the disciples.
The "Church"?
I never said that the "church" excluded Jews, nor was the "church" only for Gentiles.

OK... let us make it super simple.

- Is the New Testament written to everyone... all inclusive, without respect of persons, without exception, Jews/Gentiles, Same rules rewards and punishments for everyone?

- Where do you think the disciples fall under? Are they "The Church" or "The Jews"? (will they be raptured right along side you?)

- With regards to end times, is there two different programs? One for "The Jews" and one for the "Non Jews"

Stated differently
- A Gentile or Jew that believes on the Lord Jesus (born again saved) are raptured together in the same twinkling of an eye when that time has come? Yes or No?
- A Christ rejecting Gentile or Jew at the time of death or when the Lord Christ returns to collect his elect are both doomed to destruction? Yes or No?

Bowdrie

04-22-2024, 08:23 PM

I'll try to answer in as few words as I can.
I'll preface by saying that the path to salvation has always been open to all people thru out all time, from the time God created Adam.
Yes, the NT is written to all, with no respecter of persons.
Some may argue, it's ok, I believe that the Apostles are part of the "Church". I could easily be wrong, but I believe that the "Church age" started with Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit, (for the first time,) came into and stayed within believers on a 24/7/365 basis.
And I do believe that the Apostles, and all the believers of both Jew and Gentile, whether having died or are living at the time of the Rapture will be "Taken away/snatched away/raptured", "The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive will be caught-up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air".
You asked me about programs for Jew/non-Jew in regards to "end times".
How do we define "end times", 2,000 years ago the Thessalonians thought they were in "end times".
The modern thought is that "end times" started in 1948 with the re-birth of the nation of Israel.
My personal view is that the "real end times", (so to speak,) started when there were no prophecies left that "had" be fulfilled before a rapture could take place, I believe the Rapture could happen any day.
Jesus told the disciples a list of things that would happen before He returned, (Jesus was talking about when He would physically return to earth, not a "rapture").
When the disciples were asking Jesus all this stuff the cross event had not yet taken place, Jesus had not risen, and the Holy Spirit had not yet descended, and the disciples were still "under the law".
Even though Jesus had talked to them about the "Kingdom of Heaven" they still were looking for Him to be their King on an earthly kingdom.
They were shocked when He told them He must die/rise/go back to heaven.
So, they were asking him what the signs of would be his coming back to earth, and He answered them.
Jesus was not teaching "Rapture Theology" to the disciples, He was simply telling them things that would take place, and when they saw the "beginning" of those things to "Look-Up" that their redemption was near.
Different programs?
Yes, during the 7 years of Tribulation, (some say 3-1/2 years of Tribulation plus 3-1/2 years of Great Tribulation,) that's ok, there are different programs.
That's easy to see, suffice to say that the "man of sin" does not declare himself god in China, and the Armageddon battle doesn't take place on the plains of Kansas.
Both Jew and Gentile, if they die having rejected Christ both go to destruction.
Sin had enveloped the world, so God re-started with Noah and then chose Abraham to father a people that would (hopefully,) show the world that salvation from sin would come from God giving grace to those who would follow Him.
In effect, the Jewish people were supposed to do two things; 1, Be the caretakers of Gods Land, (Israel). 2, Be the "missionaries" of the world , (so to speak),
Well, for 2,000 years that didn't work out so well, so God sent Jesus, and the Jews rejected Him.
What could God do? From the snake in the Garden to Noah was roughly 2,000 years of rejection, then came rejection of the Messiah after roughly 2,000 years since Abraham, so then God gave the Gentiles about 2,000 years to accept Him as Lord and Savior over all.
Well, we've seen how the roughly three periods of about 2,000 years have worked out, right?
I'm not saying this lightly by any means, but God has been an "equal opportunity employer" in trying to get mans attention for the last ~6,000 years, and man has had his "3 strikes and you're out".
1, Adam to Noah, sin take over, God is rejected, that's strike 1.
2, Abram/Jews, reject the messiah, that's strike 2.
3, "The time of the Gentiles", further rejection of God, that's strike 3.
Man is OUT, and God comes to bat.
When the Tribulation starts God is going to be at home-plate, and He's going to be swinging a big bat, and the world is going to learn how hard He hits the ball.

Good Cheer

04-23-2024, 08:01 AM

Someone may have written in the 6000 year time line after the fact but that doesn't alter the assurance that we are indeed on the cusp of the third day. Not to worry though seeing as my meat suit is just about worn out.

Alabama358

04-23-2024, 01:15 PM

I'll try to answer in as few words as I can.

Dang Brother, that was the short version? :kidding:

All kidding aside... I appreciate your honest, well thought out candid answers. many folks want to speak in riddles, talk in circles and cryptic sayings for fear that they might offend someone or worst yet draw a challenge and have to defend their position with scripture.

I actually thought we were further apart on the aforementioned questions but it seems that we are pulling on the same end of the rope on most everything with the exception of Matthew 24 (Mark 13, Luke 21) and the timing of the day of redemption.

- What is the Day of redemption?
- Which "Elect" is the Lord collecting
- When the Lord returns physically he will be on a white horse and with his saints in tow not collecting them... would you agree?

Jesus told the disciples a list of things that would happen before He returned, (Jesus was talking about when He would physically return to earth, not a "rapture"). He never mentions returning physically to earth... only that they will see him in the clouds. Is that just an assumption, because I don't see it written?
When the disciples were asking Jesus all this stuff the cross event had not yet taken place, Jesus had not risen, and the Holy Spirit had not yet descended, and the disciples were still "under the law".
Even though Jesus had talked to them about the "Kingdom of Heaven" they still were looking for Him to be their King on an earthly kingdom. Point of fact...they were asking him precisely about the end of the world as stated in verse 3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
They were shocked when He told them He must die/rise/go back to heaven.
So, they were asking him what the signs of would be his coming back to earth, Actually, they were asking him about the end of the world and He answered them.
Jesus was not teaching "Rapture Theology" to the disciples, He was simply telling them things that would take place, and when they saw the "beginning" of those things to "Look-Up" that their redemption was near. If Jesus was teaching about his 2nd coming and not the Rapture... why would he tell them to look up that their redemption is nigh if they had been Raptured (redeemed) approx. 3 1/2 years ago???

A few things to consider...
Christ never physically returns to earth in Matthew 24, Mark 13 or Luke 21. He appears in the clouds in all his glory and sends his angels with a great sound trumpet to collect his elect

Matthew 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:26
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:27
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

At the risk of getting long-winded [smilie=l: I'll stop there

Bowdrie

04-23-2024, 04:52 PM

When the nations see the Lord coming in power and glory, and great trumpet sounds, and all the tribes mourn is not a picture of the Rapture, in the rapture no one sees anything, the church just disappears before their eyes, "in the twinkle of an eye".
You'll also see if you back-up a few verses to Matt 24:15>21, you'll see that the "abomination" and Jesus telling the Jews to flee has already happened.
The passages about gathering the elect from the corners of the earth and the uttermost part of heaven, is not about the rapture either.
Would Jesus gather the elect from the uttermost parts of heaven for a "rapture" if some of the elect were already in heaven?
No, the "Elect" that the angels "gather" from the earth and heaven are the Jews, both those who are still alive and scattered around the earth, and the Jews in heaven.
What Matt/Mark/Luke are describing are extremely condensed versions of things taking place.
If you go back to Daniel 12:11>12, you'll see a 45 day period that is AFTER the 1290 days since the abomination.
This is the time in which the Jews are all gathered back to Israel, the "church" that returns with Jesus goes to their assignments all over the world, and the separation of the sheep/goats takes place, and Jesus restores order on the earth.
The tribulation ends with the return of Jesus at the end of the 1290 days, (when the whole world sees Him return,) but then there is that 45 day period where Jesus/the angels/the returned church, are busy "cleaning up the mess" so to speak.
That period is also when Satan is bound and his followers are tossed.
It's a busy 45 days.
I've tried to be short winded, LOL.

Alabama358

04-24-2024, 03:32 PM

When the nations see the Lord coming in power and glory, and great trumpet sounds, and all the tribes mourn is not a picture of the Rapture, in the rapture no one sees anything, the church just disappears before their eyes, "in the twinkle of an eye". I always ask folks from the Darby Pre-trib camp for a specific, crystal clear verse that confirms that "the Church" (as we have already established to include all Jew/Greek, bond/free, male/female which have believed on Jesus) Just disappears right in front of everyone's eyes and no one sees anything, no signs no wonders... just gone, (a bible verse that clearly states that this happens before the start of the 7 year period spoken of by Daniel the prophet.)

Is it...
1 Corinthians 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(if so, I just don't see anything that delineates a timeline... we can be pulled out at the beginning, the middle or the end in a twinkling of an eye. Of course the 2nd half is God's wrath so that rules that out)

Is it...
1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(a quick and easy read will show that God's wrath doesn't start until the 2nd half of the 7 year period)

- 3 1/2 years of tribulation
- Abomination of desolation (1/2 way point of the 7 year period)
- Brief period of Great Tribulation
- Almost 3 1/2 years of Gods Wrath

Your take is that the Church is pulled out before the start of first 3 1/2 year period of tribulation???

There must be a verse of scripture that clearly state (one that you don't need to do biblical gymnastics to discern) that the day of redemption happens at the start of the week.

Bowdrie

04-24-2024, 04:49 PM

Your take is that the Church is pulled out before the start of first 3 1/2 year period of tribulation???

Yes.

Alabama358

04-25-2024, 12:04 PM

Yes.

Ok great...

I look forward to your scripture reference that clearly unambiguously spells out a Darby type disappearance right in front of everyone's eyes with no other signs... Before even the start of (as Christ calls it) the beginning of sorrows.

The Book of Revelation was written to his children to give them clear information and details regarding end times. There must be clear chapter and verse there that unequivocally spell out the great disappearance (pre-tribulation doctrine) even before the beginning of sorrows.

Furthermore, if we are indeed the justified children of the light... One would think that Christ during his earthly ministry would have spoken clearly to his faithful elect regarding the timing (not day and hour) and method of gathering them similar to what he said (to the Jews as you say) in Matthew 24

Bowdrie

04-25-2024, 02:24 PM

The rapture is for the "church", also known as "the bride", or "the bride of Christ".
Some posit that the "church age" started with "died on the cross/rose from the dead", others, (me too,) believe that the church age started with Pentecost, at 50 days after the resurrection.
No, Jesus did not say, "Listen-up you guys, I'm gonna take you all away before "The wrath of the Lamb" gets started".
Jesus was not teaching rapture theology in Matt 24. He was teaching the Jewish disciples what would happen before He returned to earth at the end of the tribulation.
Paul, in 1st Thessalonians is speaking to the "Church/Bride" saying "God did NOT appoint us to suffer wrath,,,,".
To understand a Pre-Tribulation rapture, one must understand that the WHOLE 7-years IS God's wrath/The wrath of the Lamb.
Now let's fast forward for a bit; Right now, there are 193 countries that have delegations at the UN. Each delegation has 6 seats, 3 for the full delegates and 3 for the alternates, that is 1,158 seats in total.
The seats are all numbered, seat number 666 is vacant, nobody sits there right now, but soon someone will, ("The number of a man").
Ok, now we'll go back to John, writing in Rev. 6:2, this is the opening of the FIRST seal, and describes a rider on a white horse that's carrying a bow, BUT NO ARROWS, he rides out overcome and conquer.
What does he "overcome/conquer"?, he has the means of war, (the bow,) but does not use his weapons, he "overcomes/conquers" the nations by promising Peace and Safety, (and signs the covenant).
That rider of the first horse is the "unrevealed" man of sin who claims, "I can fix everything that's wrong" and the nations follow him
But it doesn't last, the 2nd horse is war, the third horse is famine, (famine always follows war), the 4th horse is all kinds of famine and death.
So, we've already had the 4 horses, and when we get to the 5th seal we see those who are under the alter who have believed and been slain for their belief, and they are told they have to wait a little longer.
God's wrath starts right after the man of sin signs/confirms the "covenant of/between many" that IS the start of the 7 year tribulation, the last 3-1/2 years is "Great" tribulation, ALL 7 years is "wrath".
Those first 16 verses in Rev 6 are not the whole story, it's a condensed "synopsis", (if you will,) of much of the tribulation.
When Jesus opens the 7th seal is when their is a silence in Heaven before the trumpet judgements start.
The book of Rev is not written in "perfect" sequential order, John goes back-and-forth a few times talking about things that are happening at once.
So, as a re-cap; Paul writes that the "church", all the believers living or dead will NOT suffer the "Wrath of God".
And that "Wrath" does indeed start with the first horse, (the man of sin signing the covenant).
Edit; I should clarify, there are more seats at the UN, there are additional seats to accommodate more delegates should additional countries join the UN.

Nines&Twos

04-25-2024, 03:01 PM

:popcorn:

Someone may have written in the 6000 year time line after the fact but that doesn't alter the assurance that we are indeed on the cusp of the third day. Not to worry though seeing as my meat suit is just about worn out.

Depending on how we count...we are in the 7th millennium from the beginning of the 2nd earth age. That would make this a sabbatical millennium. That probably doesn't mean anything. ....and I'm with you brother...I'm ready to trade in the corruptible for the incorruptible. No arthritis sounds like heaven to me.

Alabama358

04-25-2024, 04:44 PM

The rapture is for the "church", also known as "the bride", or "the bride of Christ"....

So....NO specific actual chapter and verse of scripture, just a bunch of Darby pre-Trib talking points. (If that sounds offensive or argumentative... sorry I don't mean it that way, I just cant come up with another way to say it)

I ask the same question every time I have this discussion (Chapter and verse please) and get no applicable scripture or non-relevant scripture but the same old misguided talking points.
For example

- We are not appointed to GOD's wrath and the whole 7 years is Wrath (completely ignoring that Rev 6:12-17)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

After the Sun and Moon are darkened, stars falling from the sky etc. 1/2 way point of the 7 years, (hmmm just like Matthew 24)... THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH "IS" COME... is come, you know like just happened this day. Not 3 1/2 years ago... Keep in mind this is after the 6th Seal is opened

My original question

I always ask folks from the Darby Pre-trib camp for a specific, crystal clear verse that confirms that "the Church" (as we have already established to include all Jew/Greek, bond/free, male/female which have believed on Jesus) Just disappears right in front of everyone's eyes and no one sees anything, no signs no wonders... just gone, (a bible verse that clearly states that this happens before the start of the 7 year period spoken of by Daniel the prophet.)

I am still open to pondering the Pre-Trib doctrine if someone can give a specific, applicable, relevant scripture backing it up...

One would have to think that something as big as the LORD collecting his elect... there would be a least one unambiguous scripture. Unless it is just a doctrine of man formed from torturing scripture to... I am not even sure what it accomplishes.

Bowdrie

04-25-2024, 06:07 PM

Back at the 5th seal you see those who have been "slain" as under the alter crying out "when will we be revenged".
These are not people who were killed by a hailstone or a building falling on them.
These are the ones that the anti-christ has had killed for not worshipping him or taking his mark.
That alone tells us that the 5th seal is almost at the end of the 7 years, Jesus tells them they have to wait "just a little longer,,,,,,".
God's plan for the 7 years is in ONE SCROLL that has 7 seals.
You can't read the scroll until all 7 seals have been broken. John is told that only Jesus can open the scroll.
The first 4 seals depict the first 4 horses, and the false peace wars/famines/pestilence that accompany them and the last 3 seals depict all kinds of other things that happen up to the point of Jesus setting foot on the earth.
The whole 7 years is "wrath" the last 3-1/2 years is "Great Wrath", and the "Great DAY of Wrath" is NOT a 3-1/2-year period, it is a final culmination of events before Jesus sets foot and destroys the armies that have encircled Jerusalem.
If you don't see the carnage that happens in the first 3-1/2 years as being "wrath", I have nothing to say that would make you, (or anybody,) believe it.
Rev 6:6 is only the 3rd seal, and people are already going to have to work all day just for enough grain to bake a loaf of bread.
Many theologians equate the "hurt not the oil and the wine" as being symbolic of the "rich people who don't worry about how much it costs to buy wheat/barley for bread to eat", that's ok, they get their comeuppance later in the 6th seal.
As far as the "One would think that Christ,,,,,,,,,,,," that you previously wrote, have you not wondered why Christ didn't lead anybody else to get on the Ark?
Noah sat there for a week to see if anybody else would join him and his family, no one did.
Jesus said the latter days would be like Noah.
Salvation thru Jesus has been preached all over the world for 2,000 years and the door of the Ark is going to close right soon.
God didn't send the "tribulation" of the flood until the door of the Ark was closed, and then "tribulation" came.
When the 1st seal is opened, and the rider arrives, the "door", (as it were,) is closed, the "Church/Bride" is gone and those left will go thru the tribulation of 7 years.

exile

04-25-2024, 06:45 PM

Alabama358

04-25-2024, 08:51 PM

You might consider the idea that the church is not mentioned in the book of Revelation after the second chapter. And who is this Darby fellow anyway? Just kidding, it's all in good fun! If the church is not mention in the Book of Revelation after the second chapter... then who do you suppose the great multitude, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, which just appear in Revelation Chapter 7?
Well, read down a few verses and he tells you... the elect/church (not the Jews because it obviously says all nations, kindreds, and people) that were just pulled out of GREAT Tribulation... Hmmmm that seems to match up Perfect with Matthew 24, Wonder why???
Take a moment to study the two side by side and it will become manifestly clear

Revelation 7:9-14
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Matthew 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Has anyone read any of David Jeremiah's books on the Rapture?

exile David Jeremiah is another huckster making money hand over fist selling books and making and selling movies aimed at the folks that have bought in to the great disappearing nonsense

Alabama358

04-25-2024, 09:21 PM

Bowdrie

My question was in search of... a crystal clear verse that confirms that "the Church" (as we have already established to include all Jew/Greek, bond/free, male/female which have believed on Jesus) Just disappears right in front of everyone's eyes and no one sees anything, no signs no wonders... just gone, (a bible verse that clearly states that this happens before the start of the 7 year period spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

And you give me some made up junk like "the last 3-1/2 years is "Great Wrath", and the "Great DAY of Wrath" is NOT a 3-1/2-year period"

My guess is that you have no clear Scripture that validates the this disappearing right in front of everyone's eyes and no one sees anything, no signs no wonders doctrine.

This is usually where people go when they cant come up with clear chapter and verse and pull out the "your not rightly dividing the word of truth". 2 Timothy 2:15 and try to apply it to lack of scripture

Alabama358

04-25-2024, 09:26 PM

And who is this Darby fellow anyway? Just kidding, it's all in good fun!

exile
It did give me a chuckle... thanks for the humor

Bowdrie

04-25-2024, 09:47 PM

The "church" does not come "Out" of the tribulation, it's gone beforehand.
If you go back to Rev. 6:11 you'll see that the "great multitude" are all wearing white robes.
We, (the church,) get robes too, but we ain't carrying palm branches.
That great multitude are those who have been martyred for their faith during the tribulation.
It's generally accepted that the tribulation will see the greatest revival in history, the number of them maybe exceeding the number who believe now by "faith only", (the church).
They are the ones who have "seen" and now believe.
If you think that David Jerimiah is just a "huckster" then I suppose that Cyrus Scofield, Vernon McGee, Billy Graham, and Chuck Smith were all hucksters too.
And I guess that you would think that Jack Hibbs, Mark Hitchcock, Jonathon Cahn, and a few thousand others are also hucksters.
I believe that all those I mentioned are "Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth" at a higher degree than you are, (or probably anyone else on this forum, including me).

Good Cheer

04-26-2024, 07:02 AM

Best path forward...
With an open mind and honest heart closely study the teachings those who you think are incorrect.
They will not only teach you where they have been in error but also where you yourself have erred.
Be prepared to surrender to the truth and lay aside lies that you have cherished.

Good Cheer

04-26-2024, 07:06 AM

:popcorn:

Depending on how we count...we are in the 7th millennium from the beginning of the 2nd earth age. That would make this a sabbatical millennium. That probably doesn't mean anything. ....and I'm with you brother...I'm ready to trade in the corruptible for the incorruptible. No arthritis sounds like heaven to me.

When that all consuming fire burns away the corruptible, what a great day it will be!

Nines&Twos

04-26-2024, 07:32 AM

When that all consuming fire burns away the corruptible, what a great day it will be!

You got that right. Some read and fail to get out of the english...erroneously reading 'elements' as the whole world. The word is RUDIMENTS. I look forward to that day where the rudiments are melted away with fervent heat...I look forward to seeing my own rudiments burned away and whatever is left can bask peacefully in the warm shekhinah breeze.

...of course...a lot of errors could be avoided if people understood the english they are reading (and blindly trusting) didn't exist until a century or so after Christ ascended. The scholars and scribes that worked under King James orders did a spectacular job but as I have mentioned before...they admitted in their preface letter in the original 1611 version...errors exist. Making a prayerful effort to get further back in the language will reward you beyond measure. Father WILL give wisdom if you seek it. He promised it. He cannot lie.

dverna

04-26-2024, 08:35 AM

dannyd

04-26-2024, 09:24 AM

Woke up today thinking of the Rapture, great way to get up in the Morning, Horn Blows and as Jackie Gleason said, " And away we go".

If you divide your KING JAMES BIBLE properly there is Nothing in the Book of Matthew for a Saved Christian, everything in that Book is said to a Jew.

Divide that Bible properly. :)

Alabama358

04-26-2024, 10:33 AM

The Bible tells us repeatedly that there is NO difference between the Jew and the Gentile...below is just a few examples

So stating that the entire book of Matthew (one of the 4 books of the Gospel) is written entirely to the Jews and in your words there is Nothing for the "Saved Christian" in the entire book of Matthew even though the King James Bible tells us we are all one in Christ!

This is what you call rightly dividing the Word???

Woke up today thinking of the Rapture, great way to get up in the Morning, Horn Blows and as Jackie Gleason said, " And away we go".

If you divide your KING JAMES BIBLE properly there is Nothing in the Book of Matthew for a Saved Christian, everything in that Book is said to a Jew.

Divide that Bible properly. :)

Galatians 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

1Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Nines&Twos

04-26-2024, 11:16 AM

This exchange confirms my belief that the Bible is not "divinely inspired". God's word has been corrupted by man for thousands of years. When people who are honest believers cannot agree on what the Bible says, it should concern all of us!!

God knows we are sheep. Why would He inspire scripture the average man cannot fully comprehend? Why does it take "biblical scholars" to pry "the truth" out of God's word? And which scholar is a normal man to believe? Why would He leave us dependent on men to understand His word?

In my limited study of this part of the Bible I have concluded. IT DOES NOT MATTER! You may ask why?

How Jesus returns does affect how we should live our lives. It does not affect our need to accept Jesus if we want salvation. It does not affect the fact He will return. It does not draw me closer to Him. In short....IT DOES NOT MATTER.

People getting their undies in a knot over this is not constructive. It does not bring others to Christ. It does not boost our faith in Him. It does not make us better people...in fact it seems to foster divisiveness amongst believers.

If someone can succulently explain to me why this matters, I am all ears!!! If it is an exercise of who is smarter, or more "learned" I am not interested. We are all dumber than rocks compared to Him.

You are pretty much right on. One REALLY needs a Strong's and the desire to go look at what words mean instead of assuming they know by reading English. One should also be at the point of getting on our Father's nerves asking for wisdom and guidance. ...I jest at that, there is no point at which he tires of hearing from a loving child of His but if you want results...push that hard none the less.
It is good to debate but arguing does NOTHING to glorify our Father. Likewise...as long as you do not worship the wrong one...it makes no difference when Christ returns....you should be in the field working until you die or He arrives. One thing about it...if you have ANY doubt if it's Jesus...it's not HIM. When he returns we will all KNOW.

Alabama358

04-26-2024, 12:52 PM

The "church" does not come "Out" of the tribulation, it's gone beforehand.
If you go back to Rev. 6:11 you'll see that the "great multitude" are all wearing white robes.
We, (the church,) get robes too, but we ain't carrying palm branches.
Because "we ain't carrying palm branches" HA!!! That has got to be the best argument for Pre-Trib that I have EVER heard!!!

That great multitude are those who have been martyred for their faith during the tribulation.
"a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues"

So I guess you think there was a 2nd rapture of a great multitude that no man could number (of the martyred or is it the Jews that Christ is collecting in Matthew 24) 3 1/2 years after the Church was raptured... If not a 2nd rapture, how did they get there

Speaking of the Church...Where are they at this gathering? Are they waiting in the non-palm branch carrying room.

I believe that all those I mentioned are "Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth" at a higher degree than you are, (or probably anyone else on this forum, including me). Just as predicted... Out comes the "Rightly Dividing the Truth" argument.

Bowdrie

04-26-2024, 04:52 PM

I'm sorry Alabama358, a couple of the previous posts served to re-remind me of the futility of getting bogged down in arguments about Scripture which are not "mission critical" to the primary task of spreading the word/scattering the seed/plant and water.
As Christians it's all too easy to get 12 opinions from 10 believers, and that's probably one of the main reasons we have a bazillion different denominations.
In any event, if the rapture happens before the tribulation you'll be surprised, and if it happens in or at the end I'll be surprised, but both of us will still be happy beyond belief.
That said, I'll excuse myself from this thread.

exile

04-26-2024, 06:49 PM

All four of the gospels were written by a different person with a different cultural perspective on the same events. That does not mean that they are not written for all of us and do not have immeasurable, eternal value for us all.

God chose not to spell out every little thing for us in Scripture. I think He did that so that each one of us would have cause to search the Word for ourselves, and discover what it means for each of us individually.

That is a good thing, because each one of us will stand before God someday, alone, responsible for our own beliefs and actions.

At that time what we think about all these interesting points of doctrine will not matter.

The only thing that will matter is whether each one of us, individually, have placed our faith in Christ alone for our salvation.

I am convinced that there will be Christians from every creed and denomination in heaven, such that God will be true and every man a liar.

Until then, I commend each one you (not that my opinion matters) for searching the Word for yourselves, and I look forward to the Day when we will all sing praises to the Living Word with one voice.

Until then, may God bless each one of you! We do make for an interesting mix of perspectives, don't we?

And I am so thankful that we have a place where we can do that!

Amen?

exile

Thundarstick

04-27-2024, 11:15 AM

This exchange confirms my belief that the Bible is not "divinely inspired". God's word has been corrupted by man for thousands of years. When people who are honest believers cannot agree on what the Bible says, it should concern all of us!!

God knows we are sheep. Why would He inspire scripture the average man cannot fully comprehend? Why does it take "biblical scholars" to pry "the truth" out of God's word? And which scholar is a normal man to believe? Why would He leave us dependent on men to understand His word?

In my limited study of this part of the Bible I have concluded. IT DOES NOT MATTER! You may ask why?

How Jesus returns does affect how we should live our lives. It does not affect our need to accept Jesus if we want salvation. It does not affect the fact He will return. It does not draw me closer to Him. In short....IT DOES NOT MATTER.

People getting their undies in a knot over this is not constructive. It does not bring others to Christ. It does not boost our faith in Him. It does not make us better people...in fact it seems to foster divisiveness amongst believers.

If someone can succulently explain to me why this matters, I am all ears!!! If it is an exercise of who is smarter, or more "learned" I am not interested. We are all dumber than rocks compared to Him.

And if you look at the history of the Bible, you'll find there was quite the fight, both for and against including Revelation in the Bible as we know it at all. The Revelation could be completely stricken from our scripture and have ZERO impact on one becoming a Christian and trying to live as Christ would have us live. The biggest thing I personally have gleaned from Revelation is that Christ is victorious and has the power to keep his charge!

exile

04-27-2024, 05:45 PM

The book of Revelation was written as a warning, to the Body of Christ, to look up, for their redemption is near, and to an unbelieving world, to repent while they still have the opportunity.

In addition, the book of Revelation serves several purposes. It is a confirmation that God's word is true, and that his purposes for mankind do not change, and neither does He.

Considering the fact that prophecy is being fulfilled daily in the nation of Israel and around the world (God's judgment upon the nations that hate Israel, the gathering together of all the nations to attack Israel in the Valley of Armageddon, [Joel 3:1-3], the rebuilding of the third temple, etc...) you would think that the churches in this country would renew the interest in the book of Revelation and other prophetic passages that they once had, but sadly, they are asleep at the wheel.

Finally, the book of Revelation is the only book in the Bible that promises a special blessing for those who read and understand it.

Of course the book of Revelation matters. Why else would God go to the trouble of writing it and preserving it for our understanding and edification for over two thousand years?

exile

Nines&Twos

04-27-2024, 07:58 PM

Of course the book of Revelation matters. Why else would God go to the trouble of writing it and preserving it for our understanding and edification for over two thousand years?

exile

Very good, thank you. Our Father took the time to dictate a letter written specifically to you...if man has mistranslated some of it...that's irrelevant. The very idea that our Father couldn't communicate through man's errors shows a blasphemous lack of faith. If HE took the time to write me a letter then I want to read ALL of it and with His guidance, navigate through errors in translation as they present themselves. Our Father certainly blessed men such as E.W. Bullinger and James Strong...all men are fallible but when combined with prayer, HE can and will show you the truth He wants you to see. He promised wisdom for those who seek it...I ask multiple times a day for 3 things...open eyes, open ears and a closed mouth.

As for Revelation...the very name means to be revealed....There is SO MUCH to learn from it. Christ addresses 7 churches and that should teach you volumes. 2 out of 7 got a good report. Christ was not happy with the other 5. Logic demands you compare the two he was pleased with, find the common denominator and use that as a litmus test for whatever church you attend. The two churches Christ was happy with both knew who the kenites are....those who CLAIM to be our brother Judah but do lie. If your church does not address that, perhaps you should consider it....if Christ thought it was important and your church doesn't....well....who do you follow?
Knowing who they are lets you know who your enemy is(one of them)...even if you cannot do anything about it, for Christ also told you in Matthew 13, parable of the tares...and if you don't understand that parable...the rest of them will not make much sense either.....You are to leave them alone. Don't attack them or draw attention to them, the angels will reap, bundle and burn them at our Fathers order...not ours. BUT, we are called to watch. Be alert. How can you watch if you don't know what you're watching for??? It breaks my heart to know people ignore parts of The Word...laboring under the delusion they don't need it. Sad.

exile

04-28-2024, 12:40 AM

Open eyes, open ears and a closed mouth. Such amazing wisdom there, brother! I struggle daily with all three.

As you quoted some time ago (and I wrote down)

"I am a sojourner on the earth; hide not your commandments from me!"

Psalm 119:19 (E.S.V.)

"and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."

Ephesians 6:17 (E.S.V.)

exile

dverna

04-28-2024, 01:53 AM

Very good, thank you. Our Father took the time to dictate a letter written specifically to you...if man has mistranslated some of it...that's irrelevant. The very idea that our Father couldn't communicate through man's errors shows a blasphemous lack of faith. If HE took the time to write me a letter then I want to read ALL of it and with His guidance, navigate through errors in translation as they present themselves. Our Father certainly blessed men such as E.W. Bullinger and James Strong...all men are fallible but when combined with prayer, HE can and will show you the truth He wants you to see. He promised wisdom for those who seek it...I ask multiple times a day for 3 things...open eyes, open ears and a closed mouth.

As for Revelation...the very name means to be revealed....There is SO MUCH to learn from it. Christ addresses 7 churches and that should teach you volumes. 2 out of 7 got a good report. Christ was not happy with the other 5. Logic demands you compare the two he was pleased with, find the common denominator and use that as a litmus test for whatever church you attend. The two churches Christ was happy with both knew who the kenites are....those who CLAIM to be our brother Judah but do lie. If your church does not address that, perhaps you should consider it....if Christ thought it was important and your church doesn't....well....who do you follow?
Knowing who they are lets you know who your enemy is(one of them)...even if you cannot do anything about it, for Christ also told you in Matthew 13, parable of the tares...and if you don't understand that parable...the rest of them will not make much sense either.....You are to leave them alone. Don't attack them or draw attention to them, the angels will reap, bundle and burn them at our Fathers order...not ours. BUT, we are called to watch. Be alert. How can you watch if you don't know what you're watching for??? It breaks my heart to know people ignore parts of The Word...laboring under the delusion they don't need it. Sad.

My opinions on the veracity of every word in bible may be blasphemous but God knows I believe in Him and that is all that matters.

The fact that we have over 1200 Christian sects is something to ponder. Why has that happened if the Word is divinely inspired and perfect. Which church has the right interpretation? And, more importantly, does God care? Man can never answer that question, "Who is right?", because we do not know. I believe anyone who tells me they know which sect is "right" is deluded. We chose the sect that fits our needs and it does not matter to God as long as we accept Jesus.

Man touched the Bible and man is corrupt. God lost one third of His angels in the first few days after creation. Think about that. Not a handful, but 1/3. If He could not "divinely inspire" His newly created angels, what make us think He can control man to give us a perfect Bible over centuries of time and numerous translations?

God could have controlled His angels and prevented sin from entering the world, but He chose not to. There was no sin until He created it. The first sin happened in heaven. Adam and Eve did not commit the first sin. They did not create Satin. Christians cannot accept this obvious conclusion because it is too difficult for them to face the truth. Our loving God created sin. He created everything.

Revelations tells us God eventually defeats the sin He unleashed on the world. The timeline of events is irrelevant. All that matters is that God is victorious in the end. Sin is defeated. Some day we may know why God created sin. The reason is not in the Bible.

Good Cheer

04-28-2024, 06:45 AM

Nines&Twos

04-28-2024, 08:12 AM

That should set some teeth on edge.

I will not apologize for the Word of my Father. I do NOT set out to hurt anyone, nor do I direct that at anyone specific...but if that hits home for anyone...put it on, snug it up and wear it. If I am wrong i will thankfully take correction from a Father that loves me....He sends Christ with a rod of iron and the rod will drive foolishness far from anyone.
I can admit when I am wrong but the conviction my Father puts in me gives me a peace I have not felt in nearly 5 decades of life. What does man have to offer?
When others believe contrary to what I understand from HIS word...I will sometimes comment....but I won't keep up the argument for it's incumbent upon each of us to choose this day.......Make your choice and be a workman that ain't ashamed.

Alabama358

04-28-2024, 10:58 AM

Until then, I commend each one you (not that my opinion matters) for searching the Word for yourselves, and I look forward to the Day when we will all sing praises to the Living Word with one voice.

exile

Make no mistake about it... the opinions of fellow Justified brothers always matter...

And Lord knows there is probably no other member of this forum that has posted more pure scripture then you. (albeit some of them from suspect versions :kidding:)
Keep up the good work

exile

04-29-2024, 12:45 AM

Good Cheer

04-29-2024, 08:47 AM

I will not apologize for the Word of my Father. I do NOT set out to hurt anyone, nor do I direct that at anyone specific...but if that hits home for anyone...put it on, snug it up and wear it. If I am wrong i will thankfully take correction from a Father that loves me....He sends Christ with a rod of iron and the rod will drive foolishness far from anyone.
I can admit when I am wrong but the conviction my Father puts in me gives me a peace I have not felt in nearly 5 decades of life. What does man have to offer?
When others believe contrary to what I understand from HIS word...I will sometimes comment....but I won't keep up the argument for it's incumbent upon each of us to choose this day.......Make your choice and be a workman that ain't ashamed.

If you're gonna plant seeds sometimes you need to break the sod.

Nines&Twos

04-29-2024, 09:09 AM

If you're gonna plant seeds sometimes you need to break the sod.

Tough love is still love. Emmanuel, GOD with us, Jesus Christ returns with a rod of iron. ....Show of hands, who thinks he's gonna use it to pet you on the head and tell you it's OK?
If I offend someone to the point they MUST prove me wrong...there's only ONE way and that's in our Father's word. We can never know the mind of our Father but a good guess can be made on rare occasions. What would our Father have to say to me: You made that guy SO upset, he turned to ME and made a swan dive into my word. Pull brothers and sisters out the fire by any means*....there is a literal party in heaven for each one that comes out of iniquity and into the fold of the Shepherd.

*I do NOT believe that gives people a license to go ramming religion down other peoples' throat. To everything there is a time and place.

Thundarstick

04-29-2024, 09:33 AM

Why Dispensationalism is Wrong,Unbiblical, and Deceptive!

https://youtu.be/WhXSrFLQ374?si=DHHhOd9zTKV2D7Zy

I doubt many here will take the 30 mins to hear this young man's scriptural explanation of why, but here it is.

One huge question about the great apostasy. Will believers in rapture theology become apostate when they are left to endure the great tribulation?

Nines&Twos

04-29-2024, 02:28 PM

One huge question about the great apostasy. Will believers in rapture theology become apostate when they are left to endure the great tribulation?

Good question....How will the masses react indeed when the 1st messiah appears....he will be beautiful...he will have an answer to everything...he will come in peacefully and properously...he will put a chicken in every pot...pay all your bills...How will they react when he starts collecting the masses with the message "I've come to fly you away children...come and love me and I will save you!"
Be careful brothers...Christ returns at the 7th trump....the spurious messiah shows up at the 6th. 6 comes before 7.

Will they become apostate? Hmm, maybe not in the way we see 'apostate'.....intentionally wicked...I don't think so. Take the bait and be deceived? Oh yeah...hook line and sinker. Many will be deceived. When they realize what they have done and who they have bowed their knee too they will be crying for the mountains to fall upon them out of shame.

Alabama358

04-30-2024, 09:27 AM

Thank you for your kind words, they mean a lot to me. I can only hope that someone is encouraged to keep on going with the Lord in a world that just keeps getting tougher every day.

God bless.

exile

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

My wife ask me "why do you even fool around on that forum" My answer was something along the lines of...

Christ gave us what has come to be known as "The Great Commission"

In a way, this forum is like going out and knocking doors, maybe even better because folks actually come here looking for some portion of God's word.
When you see thousands of views on some threads, think of it like you have knocked a 1,000 doors or witnessed to thousands of folks... sharing the LORD's word is never a waste of time and is always fruitful.

Alabama358

04-30-2024, 09:54 AM

Why Dispensationalism is Wrong,Unbiblical, and Deceptive!

https://youtu.be/WhXSrFLQ374?si=DHHhOd9zTKV2D7Zy That was a pretty solid video... The guy didn't get all weird or drop down any rabbit holes

One huge question about the great apostasy. Will believers in rapture theology become apostate when they are left to endure the great tribulation?
I think your question is that... will believers (born again, folks believing on Christ instead of their on works as a Christian) be fooled by all the shenanigans that the False Christ will play in the end times. The answer is No.

Matthew 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

IF it were Possible... That is to say, that it is NOT POSSIBLE for a born again, spirit indwelled elect christian to get hoodwinked.

On the other hand the folks that are just playing Christian will stand in line to get deceived.

Bowdrie

04-30-2024, 04:02 PM

Sorry, I felt I had to return to this thread.

We DO have proof of the rapture for all those who have been so deceived by Satan's lies.
Darby was NOT some lunatic who "invented" the rapture.
In reality he should be accorded respect for calling out the false teachings that the Roman Catholic church had been teaching and jamming into people for about 1,500 years.
It's SO sad that today it's estimated that about 50% of the Church doesn't believe in the rapture.
Satan has been successful in propagating the lies about Darby, that evil one has caused so many believers to think that they have to endure the unspeakable horrors that those 7 years will bring to earth, and by doing so he has robbed too many in the "Church" of the peace of knowing that we will not have to go thru that time.

Anyway, go thru all the verses that describe the "Second Coming", you see stuff like; The mountains shake, the earth trembles, lightning and thunder, the sky rolls back, AND EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM as He arrives on the scene with an uncountable number of angels to set foot on, and split the mountain and destroy the armies at Armageddon and save the Jewish remnant that finally "Calls upon Him who comes in the name of the Lord".

Now remember that after Jesus had risen, He was ONLY seen by BELIEVERS for the days He was on earth before He ascended.
With this in mind, read John 14:3, and then Acts 1:11, and then Rev. 3:10.
John tells us that He will welcome us into His presence.
Acts tells us that He will come back THE SAME WAY YOU SAW HIM GO TO HEAVEN, NO drama, NO earth shaking, NO mountains trembling, AND ONLY BELIEVERS WILL SEE HIM WHEN HE CALLS FOR US.
NO un-believers saw Him ascend, and NO un-believers will see Jesus in the clouds when He calls us, (the Church,) to Him.
And in Rev. we are specifically told that we would be kept from the hour of trial that is coming on the WHOLE world.
That verse in Rev is "Red Letter", it's Jesus speaking His own self, HE said that we as believers would NOT go thru the tribulation.
Jesus said that unless the days were shortened that even the Elect would be deceived.
For the Gentiles who accept the Lord during the tribulation there is no Petra to go to for safety, they will be killed or starve to death because they won't accept the mark to get food.
The tribulation is judgement upon the world of un-believers both Jew and Gentile.
During that time ~1/2 of the Gentiles WILL DIE, and ~2/3rds of the Jews WILL DIE.
Put those numbers into proportion, do some math, it makes the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao look like kindergarten bullies.
Those guys killed many millions, the tribulation will kill perhaps 3 BILLION.
Not many of those who accept the Lord during the tribulation will survive the horrors or the efforts of the anti-christ.
If you don't believe what Jesus said in Acts 1:11 or Rev. 3:10, then by default you are believing that our Lord and Savior will just sit there in Heaven and watch most all of His Church/His Bride to be killed/starve/tormented by demons/bitten by scorpions and beheaded.
And Jesus said in Rev. 3:10 that the rapture is Pre-Tribulation.

Bowdrie

04-30-2024, 06:59 PM

Alabama358

04-30-2024, 08:55 PM

Sorry, I felt I had to return to this thread.

No reason to feel sorry... Happy to help :grin:

We DO have proof of the rapture for all those who have been so deceived by Satan's lies.
Darby was NOT some lunatic who "invented" the rapture.
In reality he should be accorded respect for calling out the false teachings that the Roman Catholic church had been teaching and jamming into people for about 1,500 years.
Darby started off as a Catholic and quit them and joined the Plymouth Brethren and quit them and started his own program "The Exclusive Brethren" also a defender of the Calvinist doctrine.
At its heart is the concept of predestination. Calvinists believe that, at the beginning of time, God selected a limited number of souls to grant salvation and there's nothing any individual person can do during their mortal life to alter their eternal fate.

The Exclusive Brethren the church Darby founded calls to mind where Christ said in Mark 12:38-40
38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,
39 And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:
40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Doesn't really should like a guy that the Lord would send to fix all the lost souls... your mileage may differ

Now remember that after Jesus had risen, He was ONLY seen by BELIEVERS for the days He was on earth before He ascended.
With this in mind, read John 14:3, and then Acts 1:11, and then Rev. 3:10.
. I inserted them below for your review... Nothing even resembles Pre-Trib teaching

And in Rev. we are specifically told that we would be kept from the hour of trial that is coming on the WHOLE world. So You can twist and contort "Hour of temptation" to mean "7 years of Tribulation-Great Tribulation-God's Wrath"? If so...WOW!

That verse in Rev is "Red Letter", it's Jesus speaking His own self, HE said that we as believers would NOT go thru the tribulation. It says nothing of the sort... That is probably why you didn't actually insert the actual scripture but chose to tell people what you want it to say...
Just a point of fact, probably not a good idea to say "thus sayeth the Lord" when he really didn't. see actual scripture below

Jesus said that unless the days were shortened that even the Elect would be deceived. Again....says nothing of the sort. Your just making stuff up?
What it actually says is " And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Nothing about the days being shortened to keep the elect from being deceived

And Jesus said in Rev. 3:10 that the rapture is Pre-Tribulation. I am not sure how you can make the hour of temptation a 7 year period... it is obviously the desperation of someone trying to make a scripture fit to a false teaching.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Acts 1:11
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

John 14:3
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Matthew 24:22
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Alabama358

04-30-2024, 09:30 PM

Oh, and by the way, if you don't believe in a rapture then the next time you're trying to lead someone to the Lord, tell them that after the 1st horseman, (the anti-christ,) arrives and signs the covenant that the other 3 horsemen will bring war, (probably nuclear,) and famine and a bunch of other horrors, and pestilence from all the rotting bodies that will get buried with bulldozers, and there'll be no Walmart's, no electricity, no sewage, and no gasoline.
And this is all BEFORE the anti-christ goes into the Temple.
And then there won't be any buying or selling without the mark, and then you can tell them that without the mark they can watch their children and dogs die of starvation, and since they will have no money, they'll lose their home and can live in a cave and boil pinecones for food if they can find any clean water.
Then tell them that their neighbors who have taken the mark will turn them in to the authorities, where if their "lucky" they'll just get their heads chopped off.
And what about all the islands vanishing and the 100lb hailstones, the demons set loose, the sun that will burn-up everything.
I could go on for pages, hopefully you'll have even 1/10th of an idea of what that 7 years is going to be like.
If you told that person what they had all that to look forward to, do you think any of them would want to follow the Lord?
And then you tell them that "those who endure" will be saved?
Get real, those who think they'll just go in a bunker with some C-rations and "stick-it-out" are severely misguided.
The "Bridegroom", (that's Jesus,) is NOT going to let His Bride/His Church/His Children all be slaughtered.
Those who accept the Lord during the tribulation WILL have all that to look forward to.

If I had my choice... I would choose the Pre-Trib easy way out every-time. BUT I cant find it in GOD's word and there doesn't seem to be anyone pushing that doctrine that can come up with any solid clear scripture to validate it.

And I see no reason to try and trick people and lead them to the Lord under false pretenses because it will be easier bring them in to the fold.
I suppose if you were running a church and wanted to bring the membership numbers up as a means to increase the $$$ in the collection plate, one might toy with the idea of bending the Word to make it seem more appealing.
Maybe, if one was trying to write a best selling book it might be profitable to try and make it as appealing as possible to increase its popularity.
Usually false doctrine can be traced back to the Love of Money

John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Bowdrie

04-30-2024, 11:33 PM

Once again, Matt.24 is not about the rapture, it's a picture of the tribulation, that if Jesus didn't come to earth no one would survive, "But for the "Elect's" sake those days would be shortened".
The "Elect" are the Jews surrounded in Israel/Jerusalem facing annihilation from the anti-christ armies.
When they face that, then they will finally after 2,000 years call out for him as the Messiah to save them.
They are His "Remnant" who remain, (along with the ones in Petra). That many others around the world who are not Jews survive is simply a consequence of His, (That's Jesus,) return.
Yes, I made a typo in using "deceived", and when I didn't quote again the verse in Rev. 3:10 I assumed that anybody with a brain would know what verse I was talking about, I had already listed it before, and it was the only verse in Rev. that I used.
You can rant all you want about Darby, but nobody can refute the differences between the "coming" of the Lord as told by the angels in Acts 1:11 and the "2nd Coming" of the Lord in Revelation.
If one cannot see those differences they are truly blind.
The early church knew all about the rapture from Paul, it was one of the "Mysteries" that he was shown, and he revealed to the church.
Rapture theology was widely taught up until between 300>400AD, then the Romans took over the church and the "Church" became the "Roman Catholic" church, and it was in the best interests of the Satanic marriage between Church and State to suppress rapture teaching.
When the "Roman" church could replace the teaching of a rapture away from tribulation with "Paying money to the church to escape tribulation" it brought in the dough hand-over-fist, the "Roman" church got all the gold, the statues, and the beautiful paintings and buildings they wanted, and the secular Govt. got a big piece of the action.
That continued for centuries, do you think that Michaelangelo worked for free?
It's only been in VERY recent times that many in the "Church" have been seduced by Satan into recanting their believe in the rapture or refusing to accept its Biblical support.
When Darby, the Anglican priest finally called the Roman Church out on its suppression of rapture teaching after 1,500 years of indoctrination and brainwashing by the Roman church it was as if the veil had been lifted and true teaching once again started.
Only a generation ago almost all Christians believed in it, but now in the "last days" we've got an increasing number of "church members" who have come under a delusion that Satan started over 1,500 years ago with the marriage of church and state.
It was really not all that different from what the "church" had become when Jesus drove the "money changers" out of the Temple, the "money changers" didn't "change" money, they made a profit from the people who came to worship by selling sacrificial animals, (for sin forgiveness,) from doves to sheep/oxen at huge mark-ups.
The Roman church did the same thing, but instead of selling animals for the sacrificial forgiveness of sin, they just said "Give us the Money", and we'll pray for you and get your loved ones out of purgatory, and you'll be saved from harm in the tribulation that God will be sending, (course that might cost a little more).
Darby saw thru that BS 200 years ago, but now we have a resurgence of those who refuse to accept that God indeed has had different dispensational plans in the Bible.

Bowdrie

05-01-2024, 02:36 AM

I would add that the word "Dispensation" comes from one or more groups being exempted from certain things, or giving out certain things to preferred groups.
By 300>400AD, and continuing later, when Israel was long gone as a nation and its people scattered to the four winds, the Roman church just threw away the "Dispensations" of the Bible and claimed that all God had promised to Israel and the Jewish people were now to be incorporated as promises/dispensations to the "New Church" of Gentiles, which is the "Church of Rome" and its believers/followers.
And thus it continued for 1,500 years,,, until Darby came along and up-set the Roman applecart.
When Martin Luther nailed his writ to the door, he opened up the door for the Protestant Reformation, had he opined what Darby did he would probably not escaped with his life.
But the Roman church didn't give up.
When Father Serra went up the Ca. coast in the 1700s building missions, the "tireless work of converting the heathens to Christ" was the side-line that got the good press.
Getting the Native Americans to work the fields, (Faith + works or money= Salvation,) it brought in the bucks with big crops to sell.

Alabama358

05-01-2024, 12:32 PM

I would add that the word "Dispensation" ...

Long on Talk (doctrines of men)...

Short on actual chapter and verse quotes directly from scripture (doctrines of the LORD)

You also didn't say if you believe the Calvinism doctrine. Where God has already picked the winners and the losers, that is to say those bound for glory and those that are heading to destruction...
Those born to destruction can call on the name of the Lord and still not be saved?

Romans 10:13
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Bowdrie

05-01-2024, 03:35 PM

Long on Talk (doctrines of men)...

Short on actual chapter and verse quotes directly from scripture (doctrines of the LORD)

You also didn't say if you believe the Calvinism doctrine. Where God has already picked the winners and the losers, that is to say those bound for glory and those that are heading to destruction...
Those born to destruction can call on the name of the Lord and still not be saved?

Romans 10:13
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You pose an interesting question, one that far more knowledgeable people than I have no doubt been pondering over for much longer than Calvin.
From Scripture I believe that God has prior knowledge of any decisions we make, He gave us free will, but he already knows which way we would decide.
I don't believe that God sits in Heaven and "decides" that "Joe will go to hell, and Ben won't".
Wasn't it in Psalms that David writes that God knew us before we were born?
Romans 10:13 is most certainly true, but that doesn't negate the fact that God already knows who the "whosoever's" are.
Go back to the parable that Jesus said about the seed landing on different kinds of ground.
And read what Paul wrote about "some plant and some water", and God gets the increase.
We're told to preach the Gospel, (sow the seeds,) and help those who show interest, (water the seeds,) but we don't know the soil, (the heart,) of those who we sow to, that's where the Holy Spirit comes in.
To put things in a lighter perspective, I'll quote a line from an old movie;
"Heaven only knows Mr. Allison".
We need to realize that for many things, "Heaven only knows" is the real truth.
In Amos 3:7 we're told that God reveals His plans to His servants and prophets, but nowhere are we told that God would or will reveal all the smaller details.

Alabama358

05-01-2024, 06:16 PM

You pose an interesting question, one that far more knowledgeable people than I have no doubt been pondering over for much longer than Calvin.
From Scripture I believe that God has prior knowledge of any decisions we make, He gave us free will, but he already knows which way we would decide.
I don't believe that God sits in Heaven and "decides" that "Joe will go to hell, and Ben won't".
Wasn't it in Psalms that David writes that God knew us before we were born?
Romans 10:13 is most certainly true, but that doesn't negate the fact that God already knows who the "whosoever's" are.
Go back to the parable that Jesus said about the seed landing on different kinds of ground.
And read what Paul wrote about "some plant and some water", and God gets the increase.
We're told to preach the Gospel, (sow the seeds,) and help those who show interest, (water the seeds,) but we don't know the soil, (the heart,) of those who we sow to, that's where the Holy Spirit comes in.
To put things in a lighter perspective, I'll quote a line from an old movie;
"Heaven only knows Mr. Allison".
We need to realize that for many things, "Heaven only knows" is the real truth.
In Amos 3:7 we're told that God reveals His plans to His servants and prophets, but nowhere are we told that God would or will reveal all the smaller details.

It is a whole lot simpler then all of that philosophical speak.

(estimated numbers)

Christians - 31.6%
Muslims - 25.8%
Hindus - 15.1%
Other - 27.5%

Assuming that all people who say they are Christians are saved (even the ones playing Christians) and you believed in Calvinism... then in essence you believe that God created 2/3s of the worlds souls for eternal torment and suffering with no chance of redemption and or salvation... for his amusement? That doesn't sound like my GOD

Furthermore, you would have to disregard everything that the Bible says about salvation... carrying that thought forward you would have to then question the need for Christ's death burial and resurrection because both saved and doomed were already decided before creation.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

If God would have ALL men to be saved... and he decided before creation the outcome of all souls, why would we need hell or the lake of fire? The rumor is that it has something to do with Free Will and being saved by Grace through Faith

When you combine faith in God's word, The Holy Spirit and critical thinking it is pretty easy to sort out false teachings.

So if Darby was a modern day prophet of God (as you say) anointed with the Holy Spirit sent to fix 1,500 years of false teaching... Then how could he get hoodwinked into this other garbage doctrine.

Bowdrie

05-01-2024, 07:44 PM

Nothing I wrote was "philosophical", it was all simple and straightforward without any hidden meanings.
I said nothing about God "deciding any outcomes", I said I don't believe He does.
Yes, Tim2:3 is right, that doesn't mean all will be saved.
God did give us free will, do you not think so? Adam had a choice, and he was created perfect.
The angels who followed Satan had a choice.
God gives everybody a choice, GOD DOES NOT CONDEMN ANYBODY, men condemn themselves by not choosing God.
That God already knows the choice someone makes does not mean he pre-ordained that choice.
God did not destroy Sodom/Gomorrah because of sin, He destroyed them because there were not enough righteous people to meet the bargain that He and Abraham had worked-out.
Your last couple of sentences about Darby have nothing to do with what I wrote, I never said he was any kind of anointed prophet or any kind of prophet, that's just you once again running out of bounds.
No, God did not create 2/3rds of the worlds souls for torment, I didn't insinuate or imply that at all.
But, since you seem to have a reasonable grasp on connecting verses with books and chapters, perhaps you already know where that passage is where Jesus is talking about a wide road and a narrow road?
It was something about many shall take the wide path, and few in number will take the narrow path, right?
I think that passage may help you when you say something like, "that doesn't sound like my God".
You seem to think that most of the mainstream preachers/teachers/scholars are just hucksters, maybe it's you who is conflicted and searching for what ain't there.

exile

05-01-2024, 08:33 PM

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (E.S.V.)

exile

Alabama358

05-02-2024, 12:39 PM

Nothing I wrote was "philosophical", it was all simple and straightforward without any hidden meanings. Maybe I was trying not to say noncommittal, fence-sitting and Lukewarm

I said nothing about God "deciding any outcomes", I said I don't believe He does. Try not to make this all about you... we were discussing Calvinism

Yes, Tim2:3 is right, that doesn't mean all will be saved.
God did give us free will, do you not think so? Adam had a choice, and he was created perfect.
The angels who followed Satan had a choice.
God gives everybody a choice, GOD DOES NOT CONDEMN ANYBODY, men condemn themselves by not choosing God. Well that sounds almost like a condemnation of Calvinism

That God already knows the choice someone makes does not mean he pre-ordained that choice. I think most folks understand the difference between foreknowing and predestination/pre-ordained.
Are you suggesting that Calvinist do not think salvation was predestination/pre-ordained?

God did not destroy Sodom/Gomorrah because of sin, He destroyed them because there were not enough righteous people to meet the bargain that He and Abraham had worked-out.
I think a re-read of (Genesis 18) and (2 Peter 2) might clear that up for you

Genesis 18:20-21
20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

2 Peter 2:
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

Your last couple of sentences about Darby have nothing to do with what I wrote, I never said he was any kind of anointed prophet or any kind of prophet, that's just you once again running out of bounds. "Running Out of Bounds"

Well someone that God anoints with the Holy Spirit to correct 1500 years of wrong doctrine... To get the Bride of Christ back on track for when he returns to collect his elect... would actually be a prophet by definition.

Oxford Languages: 1. a person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God.

Unless you think Darby is just some worldly guy that wrote down his own doctrine for his own ends and was not of God?

But, since you seem to have a reasonable grasp on connecting verses with books and chapters, perhaps you already know where that passage is where Jesus is talking about a wide road and a narrow road? It was something about many shall take the wide path, and few in number will take the narrow path, right? I was actually going to use that bible verse to prove my point.
Matthew 7:13-17
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

I wonder who these modern day false prophets/teachers/scholars are?

I think that passage may help you when you say something like, "that doesn't sound like my God". I think you misunderstood me... I think GOD will condemn 2/3 of mankind and probably many more to eternal torment, but not because he pre-ordained (predestination ) it before creation but because THEY have chosen death over life by rejecting Christ

You seem to think that most of the mainstream preachers/teachers/scholars are just hucksters, maybe it's you who is conflicted and searching for what ain't there.

Mainstream worldly preachers... (a bit off topic so I will just say)

1 John 2:15-16
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Psalms 119:19
19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.

Try being a stranger to this world and the clarity of HIS Word may change for you.

Bowdrie

05-02-2024, 02:24 PM

You should have kept reading further down in Genesis.
Read Genesis 18:22>32, you'll see that what I said was right, God did indeed strike a bargain with Abraham.
Had God found even ten righteous He would not have destroyed the cities.
Anyway, the title of this thread is; "Are you ready for the Rapture".
And I can answer the question posed as the original reason for this thread; YES, I'm ready for the Rapture.
For those who don't believe in it, maybe they should start their own thread instead of mocking those who do.

Alabama358

05-02-2024, 09:59 PM

You should have kept reading further down in Genesis.
Read Genesis 18:22>32, you'll see that what I said was right, God did indeed strike a bargain with Abraham.
Had God found even ten righteous He would not have destroyed the cities. God destroyed the two cities because they were dens of wicked filthy sodomites ... He was on his way to burn them down when Abraham tried to intervene and get God to repent, the decision to destroy them had already been made before any of the Bargaining began

But give Abraham credit, he did a pretty good job of negotiating and got God to commit that if he could find just ten that were not filthy wicked then he would spare them but... Sodom was so deranged and wicked that the towns men came and tried to break down Lot's door and rape the two angels that the Lord had sent...

You said and I quote..."God did not destroy Sodom/Gomorrah because of sin, He destroyed them because there were not enough righteous people to meet the bargain that He and Abraham had worked-out."
That is possibly the most far-fetched thing that I have ever heard and it reeks of a LGBTQ2S+++++ Appeasement doctrine

Not destroyed because of sin???? (mocking is sometimes a tool to try to illustrate how ridiculous something is)

Anyway, the title of this thread is; "Are you ready for the Rapture".
And I can answer the question posed as the original reason for this thread; YES, I'm ready for the Rapture.
For those who don't believe in it, maybe they should start their own thread instead of mocking those who do.

If you are under the impression that I do not believe in The Rapture then this has been an epic communication failure on my part. .

I believe exactly what Christ said in Matthew 24... We will be gathered up after the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

So to be clear...raptured-snatched-gathered, post Tribulation and shortly after the Great tribulation... just as Christ said when ask by "The Church" not "The Jews" but The Church

Post Tribulation, shortly after the Great Tribulation, but Pre-Wrath
Shortly beyond the 1/2 way point of the 7 year period... Just as Christ says in Matthew 24

I know you said... Matthew 24 is for the Jews but that was right after you agreed that there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile. :veryconfu
You offer no supporting Chapter and verse scripture but just offer your opinion and regurgitated Darby talking points

So to answer the question...yes I too am ready for the Rapture.

Bowdrie

05-03-2024, 01:07 AM

You offer no supporting Chapter and verse scripture but just offer your opinion and regurgitated Darby talking points
So to answer the question...yes I too am ready for the Rapture.

That's wonderfull, glad you're ready cause it ain't long in coming.
You're just off on your timelines, it's ok you'll be in for a bigger surprise when it happens.
Here's the deal Alabama, I'm now an old man, been a believer for well over 60 years, remember my parents taking me to Billy Graham crusades as a kid.
In all those years I've heard/seen a lot of different preachers and viewpoints from churches with 2,000 people and churches with 40 people.
And I've seen how the word has been changed in its presentation over all those years.
Am I some expert on the Bible? No Way, No How, No Sir, but thru the years I've managed to grasp a few things.
One of them is that under rigorous examination/cross examination, the viewpoints of the rapture taking place after the signing of the "covenant" do not hold up, there's just too many holes in those views that can't be plugged up.
There will never be anything that I can say, or some verse to quote that will make you change your mind, I can only say that the timeline you defend puts you in a very small minority of believers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZJQ4XGDQyI

Alabama358

05-03-2024, 04:05 PM

There will never be anything that I can say, or some verse to quote that will make you change your mind, I can only say that the timeline you defend puts you in a very small minority of believers.

It gladdens my heart to have you say that I am in a very small minority...
Most folks want to roll with whatever is popular and worldly mostly because they either do not want to put in the study time in to sort things out for themselves, or they may think they don't have the capacity to understand the complexity's of Bible scripture and look for someone to tell them what it means (this is one of the most dangerous scenarios, think of a time when the catholic church would burn people alive for even having a bible because the church needed to tell the uneducated folks what scripture said and meant)... and then there is the fear of rejection for being on the outside of group-think.
All of those paths usually lead away from the narrow strait (or narrow path) to truth and glory.

If I am fortunate enough to be here for the end show... I think there will be many thumb sucking saved crybabies... bellyaching that "they were told" that they were not suppose to be here for any of the bad stuff and will need comforted because they were not emotionally prepared for "the Tribulation" and "Great Tribulation" spoken of by Christ.
Since we will not be able to buy or sell without the mark... I am considering putting up a few cases of tissues for my pre-trib brothers and sisters.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Luke 13-24
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Romans 12:2
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 Corinthians 3:18
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

1 John 5:5
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Thundarstick

05-03-2024, 05:52 PM

In the world wide Christian community, rapture theology is mostly an American doctrine.

Alabama358

05-03-2024, 06:11 PM

In the world wide Christian community, rapture theology is mostly an American doctrine.

How many countries have you actually traveled to that would cause you to form that opinion?
Or, is that something you read on the internet?

Bowdrie

05-03-2024, 06:12 PM

There is not one single sentence in Matt. 24 which can be ascribed to a rapture event.
There is no "there" there, and you can't find a rapture in Matt.24.
The verses 40 and 41 are NOT about a rapture, those verses come AFTER Jesus returns physically.
Look at verse 39, Who were taken away? Jesus says who are taken away, THE BAD PEOPLE WERE TAKEN AWAY, just like in the days of Noah when the bad people were taken away.
In verses 40 and 41 THE BAD PEOPLE ARE TAKEN AWAY.
Verses 40 and 41 are those who have taken the mark and they are removed.
You'll also notice in verse 31 that the angels gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of heavens to the other.
The angels are NOT gathering the elect from earth.
The angels are gathering the elect from heaven, why? To bring them down to earth.
And when Jesus said. "Upon this rock I will build my church,,,,,,,,," you might notice He used the word "Will", the word "will" denotes a future event, there was no "church" while Jesus was still alive.
The "Church", or the "Church Age" did not start until Jesus rose from the tomb, any many would say that the "Church" did not start until 50 days later when the Holy Spirit descended upon the gathered disciples in Jerusalem.
Trying to use Matt 24 as a rapture happening somewhere between the abomination and Christ's return to earth is false doctrine.

Alabama358

05-03-2024, 06:45 PM

There is not one single sentence in Matt. 24 which can be ascribed to a rapture event...

I had hoped your were done barfing up Darbyite talking points... Just stating your opinion as if it is an established fact, doesn't make it true and factual... it makes you look desperate.

I will set a box of tissues aside for you.

Good Cheer

05-03-2024, 08:29 PM

How many countries have you actually traveled to that would cause you to form that opinion?
Or, is that something you read on the internet?

Do the research and you won't be asking that question?
As observation of mankind over time goes on and on, I question why our individual cognitive abilities would be relied upon to determine who among us should qualify for redemption.

Bowdrie

05-03-2024, 08:52 PM

Why are you absolutely incapable of reading the words of Matt. 24 and understanding what it is so plain and easy to grasp?
Read it slowly, words mean things.
If you can't understand that the word "will" is future tense you need to go back to school.
Can't you see that Jesus spoke in plain language, and spoke in chronological order the things that would happen?
Jesus laid out very plainly just what He was asked by the disciples.
If you think I just made stuff up you're sadly mistaken.
Show me any place in Matt. 24 where the angels gather anybody from earth.
Show me the part about the rapture in Matt.24, which words, which sentence, which verse that you find a rapture in.
Instead of attacking me, show me where you're right.
Speak in your own words how you understand a passage, continually just quoting Scripture shows no understanding of what you're quoting, a parrot can do that, if you can't explain what the words mean, you can't teach it.
Many others are probably following this thread, explain to all of us how you interpret Matt.24 in your own words.
If you can't do that, then you don't understand it.

.429&H110

05-03-2024, 09:30 PM

"And then the end shall come."

We have work to do yet.

dverna

05-03-2024, 10:09 PM

As I said a few posts ago…this is so sad…seeing believers arguing about something that does not matter.

Generations of believers have anticipated the return of Jesus. When that happens, do you think it will not be apparent?

Will you have a better place in heaven if your beliefs, or lack of them, wrt to Rapture are correct?

Alabama358

05-03-2024, 11:44 PM

Speak in your own words how you understand a passage, continually just quoting Scripture shows no understanding of what you're quoting, a parrot can do that, if you can't explain what the words mean, you can't teach it.

Folks that are pedaling garbage usually have a problem with chapter and verse type conversations

You have already been weighed and measure ... and you have been found wanting

Matthew 10:14
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet

(In my own words... your like a rock, you have bought into, what I think is a false a doctrine hook-line-sinker and only want to propagate said doctrine. If I thought I could be of any help to you I would continue... but rocks are rocks, so I am shaking the dust off as far as going back and forth with you)

I ask you for a single clear bible verse that says (with no need of twisting) that clearly states that the Church will be secretly raptured before the 7 year period, just disappeared with no signs or wonders... and you had no deliverables.

If you are worried about edifying others following this thread... I would suggest they go back to Post #164 to see the misleading manner in which "using your own words" you twist scripture to compensate for your weak doctrine...

You said

Jesus said that unless the days were shortened that even the Elect would be deceived.

I said

Again....says nothing of the sort. Your just making stuff up?
What it actually says is " And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Nothing about the days being shortened to keep the elect from being deceived

and you said

Yes, I made a typo in using "deceived"

You see... a typo is a missed spelled word or using too instead of two or even a punctuation error... when you completely change and twist scripture to push your own ideas it is intellectually dishonest at best and fraudulent at worst.

This type of "using your own words" without putting it next to scripture is often how folks that are still on the milk of the word get sucked into false doctrine.

There are other regular members here that don't believe the pre-trib Darby thingy...play with them

Bowdrie

05-04-2024, 01:10 AM

Please tell us in your own words the meaning of any of the verses in Matt. 24.
If you can't explain what it means, then you don't understand it.
Endlessly attacking me does not make your position stronger, it only serves to show your lack of understanding.
If you think my analysis of Matt. 24 is wrong, then show me, (and us,) how you are right.
If the Holy Spirit gave you the wisdom to understand the true meaning of that that chapter, then explain it to all of us that we may understand its true meaning.
Don't just quote Scripture, endlessly quoting Scripture has nothing to do with understanding God's word.

Thundarstick

05-04-2024, 05:18 AM

Here is THE most important verse in Matthew 24.

Mat 24:44 - So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Then in a parable he warns servants (teachers, shepards).

Mat 24:45 - 51 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Kosh75287

05-11-2024, 09:26 PM

Is ANY of us REALLY ready for ANY of this?

exile

05-12-2024, 02:10 AM

"whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come-all are yours. And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's."

1 Corinthians 3:22-23 (NKJV)

exile

exile

05-13-2024, 01:37 AM

"in him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

Ephesians 1:13-14 (E.S.V.)

exile

Good Cheer

05-13-2024, 07:28 PM

Is ANY of us REALLY ready for ANY of this?

Well, no, but it mite feel good to try to prepare ones self.

exile

05-13-2024, 09:01 PM

"So to Noah and into the ark they went by twos-all flesh in which was the spirit of life. Those that came, male and female of all flesh, came just as God commanded him. Then ADONAI shut him in."

Genesis 7:15-16 (TLV)

Christ is the Ark. Get in and let God close the door!

Then you are in Christ and Christ is in God.

As someone once said, "Now you are double-bagged."

Now you are safe.

Now you can face the future with confidence. Don't wait any longer. Ask Christ to dwell in your heart today.

exile

exile

05-13-2024, 09:26 PM

"and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 2:6-7 (E.S.V.)

exile

Bowdrie

05-13-2024, 09:59 PM

Christ is the Ark. Get in and let God close the door.

Amen, Noah preached to all the mockers and scoffers for over 100 years, and then waited for 7 days.
During those 7 days any of those mockers and scoffers could have banged on the door before God sealed it.
It's the same today, the mockers and scoffers think everything will be alright, and nothing will change.
They think that if the "right people" are elected and Israel is split-up so the "Palestinians", (whoever they are,) get their own state that everything will be all smiles.
They have no clue of what's coming down the pike in very short order.

exile

05-14-2024, 03:36 AM

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the day of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water."

1 Peter 3:18-20 (E.S.V.)

exile

Nines&Twos

05-14-2024, 08:18 AM

Matthew 24:37
“But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Is not the flood here already? Our Father may have promised not to destroy the earth with a flood again...but that was a flood of water. The deluge is upon the earth now and the flood is a flood of lies. People are drowning in it and the majority do not care. When you look around and compare...I begin to wonder if it isn't worse than the days of Noah due to the fact we have instant global communication available to everyone. That ability is one of lucifer's greatest tools for deception.
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it...people will come to believe it. ....Joseph Gnobbels

Bowdrie

05-15-2024, 01:26 AM

A few pages back I was greatly attacked by saying, "We ain't carrying palm branches", this pertains to the verse in Rev. 7:7>17 about those in white robes, and so I'll say it again with, (hopefully,) more clarity.
My point was that the multitude described is NOT we the "Church", and that multitude with the palm branches represent those who have been martyred for Jesus during the tribulation.
So, to clarify that, if you go to 1st John 1:7 you see where we, (the church,) ",,,,,the blood of Jesus His son cleanses US from all sin", WE are cleansed, note the word "US", it's important.
And in Rev. 1:5 we're told, ",,,,,,,has freed US from our sins by His blood", the word "Us" again is used.
The crowd that's carrying palm branches in Rev. 7:7>17 have ROBES washed in the blood.
It's a BIG difference, the church is "WE/US" who are washed in the blood, those with the palm branches wear ROBES that are washed in the blood.
Even the "jobs" we will have are different. Those "with the palm branches and washed robes" are the servants who serve God day and night in His temple.
We, the "church" have "jobs" such as Paul described in 1st Corinthians 6:2>3.
When you compare the "work/jobs" of those with the palm branches in Rev. 7:15 with "Us the Church" in 1st Corinthians 6:2>3 you can easily see that the two groups are different.
We, the church have accepted the Lord by FAITH, the palm branch people have accepted the Lord by SEEING the works of God during the tribulation and are martyred for it.
We the church have a special blessing, and Jesus himself spoke of it in John 20:29.
As an aside, remember when Jesus appeared to the disciples in the room?
Judas had already hanged himself and Thomas WAS NOT THERE.
When Jesus left Thomas shows up and the others tell him that Jesus has risen and is really alive and Thomas refuses to believe.
Eight days later, (they counted the partial day,) Thomas see's Jesus and believes.
Now, remember the "70th week" of Daniel, it's the same typography.
Those who believe BEFORE the 70th week are the church, (represented by the disciples who believed BEFORE seeing Jesus, (or Gods wrath during the tribulation).
Thomas is representative of the "palm branch people" who only believe DURING or AFTER seeing/hearing/feeling Gods wrath in the tribulation.
And YES, we the "Church" are raptured before the 70th week, or in essence we would be like Thomas and little if any different from those waving the palm branches.

Good Cheer

05-15-2024, 04:44 AM

Bowdrie, if you happen to have read The Coming Prince by Robert Anderson, are you basically in alignment with the structure of his beliefs concerning the 70th week?
https://archive.org/details/comingprince01ande/page/n5/mode/2up
https://i.imgur.com/pLtTNTZ.jpg

Bowdrie

05-15-2024, 06:55 AM

Bowdrie, if you happen to have read The Coming Prince by Robert Anderson, are you basically in alignment with the structure of his beliefs concerning the 70th week?

No sir, I have not read it, but as time allows I will make an attempt.

exile

05-15-2024, 04:21 PM

"Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to annoint a most holy place. Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of the annointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time."

Daniel 9:24-25 (E.S.V.)

exile

Alabama358

05-15-2024, 09:12 PM

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The Midway point of the 7 Year point is 1,290 days (Tribulation)

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
But for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened... shortened to only 45 days of Great Tribulation?

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days..

Blessed is he that makes it to the 1,335 Day mark... 45 days after the midpoint of 1,290 days (45 days of Great Tribulation before the Lord's elect are gathered)

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;.

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So, who are "The Elect" being gathered at the 1,335 day mark... from all kindreds and people and tongues that have just came out of Great Tribulation??

The Church, The Elect, The Justified , Born again Folks

Kosh75287

05-15-2024, 09:20 PM

Bowdrie

05-16-2024, 12:32 AM

Alabama, We already know from Daniel 12:11 that there will be 1290 more days after the anti-christ stops the sacrifices in the temple, and that the total time will be a full seven years.
Ok, so follow me a bit on this.
I will admit that I don't know if this is right or wrong, but it's something we can all roll-over in our minds a bit.
In Rev. 6:12>14, (this is the 6th seal opening,) we're told about "a GREAT earthquake", the sun becoming black, and stars of heaven, (meteors?.) fall to earth, and then "Every mountain and Island were MOVED OUT OF THEIR PLACES.
Can any of us even begin to imagine the force needed to do that? It's way beyond our comprehension.
And after that in Rev. 8:12 we're told that both the day and the night, (sun and moon,) give-up a 1/3 of their light.
So, that "might" mean that the "day" was only 8 hours long and the "night" was only 8 hours long, so you would have a 16-hour day instead of a 24-hour day?
Now that would "shorten the days" "Unless the days be shortened,,,,,,,,,," Matt. 24:22.
The earth would still go around the sun once a year, (365 days,) but each "day" would only be 16 hours long.
As I said before, I'm not so sure about that hypothesis, or explanation, it's something that I've read/heard others write or say.
Could giant meteor strikes and great earthquakes and mountains/islands moving out of their places change the rotation of the earth?
Any of this obviously is supernatural by Gods hand, after all He made the sun stand still and the moon stop for a full day in Joshua 10.
I do think there are many things that we'll never know, and Jesus did, (and probably said,) a LOT more than our Bible tells us according to John 21:25.
Many have explained that the "extra" 45 days are at the end of the 1290 days from the midpoint.
The idea being that no "Groom/Husband"" would carry/bring his new "bride" into a home that was totally ruined and demolished from seven years of catastrophes and death/blood everywhere.
The "Groom/Husband" would need some time to clean-up the mess, get-rid of the evil ones, (separate the sheep/goats,) and recall all the Jewish people that have survived from around the world back to Israel, (less than 1/2 of the Jewish people in the world live in Israel today).
Anyway, the wording of Daniel is that there is a full seven years and the "extra" 45 days is "tacked on" at the end of the seven years, (but not part of it).
Lots to consider and think about, I'm glad none of it is a Salvational issue.
I think that our big job is to "spread the Word" as best we can, and God will get the increase.
Addition: One may think that theory/hypothesis I described as simple or childish, but if you give it some thought it's actually pretty profound.
It comes from what Jesus did NOT say, He did not say the NUMBER of days would be shortened, He said the "Days" would be shortened.
How do you "shorten" a day? You put less hours in it.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, and I first read about it ~20 years ago.

Good Cheer

05-16-2024, 09:00 AM

CAN'T we all just STOP, thank whatever higher power we believe in for what already has BEEN, and tell them we'll be grateful for whatever WILL BE? I mean, if it's all as out of our hands as it is advertised to be, WHAT ELSE should we do?

You know, about all we can do is what we're told and these conversations really do boil down to disagreements about what we're told to do. For instance, we're told to not be deceived, to beware of worshiping the coming false messiah and to not premeditate what we will say when we are delivered up to it. At the same time of course we're told to not sweat it because our true creator is in control. And then you have many people who blow off what they're told to do because they think they will be flown out of here before they go through what our Father told them. And then there's a myriad variations in between, much of which looks a whole lot like marketing strategies rather than scripture.

Me myself I know that:
This is the generation of the fig tree.
We're about to enter into the third day.
Father is in control.
The devil will make its appearance.
We will all leave these corruptible bodies one way or the other but relatively few people will do so in the transformation that occurs when Jesus returns.
So reckon I'll be here as long as I'm here, here where we were told to go, are being provided for and hope to live in faith for the remainder of our days.

Nines&Twos

05-16-2024, 10:11 AM

WHAT ELSE should we do?

Watch. We are called to be watchers so watch! Keep your eyes open, watch and pray. Christ told us this more than once. Mark 13:23 ..I have foretold you all things......13:33 Watch and pray....13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

If you don't watch...you just might miss the wicked one when he slips in...peacefully and prosperously. The Antichrist comes 1st....Watch...don't be deceived.

Nines&Twos

05-16-2024, 11:40 AM

We will all leave these corruptible bodies one way or the other but relatively few people will do so in the transformation that occurs when Jesus returns.

I would like to respectfully disagree with you my friend. :D

1 Corinthians Chapter 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

7th trump is the last trump...ALL be changed.
Why everyone? Well....scoot back to verse 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Before ANYONE receives reward or punishment...what must happen? Judgment before the White Throne of our Father. .....in verse 50 it says Kingdom. What is a kingdom? The King and his Dominion. Wherever our Father is...THAT is the Kingdom of God. ...and since he made and owns EVERYTHING...that's that. So your celestial body will stand before judgment. ....but here's the rub....move down one verse to 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Notice the change of subject halfway through? We ALL leave this flesh to be judged but NOT everyone will put on an immortal soul. Mortal means likely to die....and many will perish in the consuming fire.

Did I come close to making sense or did I miss the mark again? Well, even if I'm wrong your 3rd observation is, for a fact, beyond contestation.

Good Cheer

05-16-2024, 12:33 PM

I would like to respectfully disagree with you my friend. :D

1 Corinthians Chapter 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

7th trump is the last trump...ALL be changed.
Why everyone? Well....scoot back to verse 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Before ANYONE receives reward or punishment...what must happen? Judgment before the White Throne of our Father. .....in verse 50 it says Kingdom. What is a kingdom? The King and his Dominion. Wherever our Father is...THAT is the Kingdom of God. ...and since he made and owns EVERYTHING...that's that. So your celestial body will stand before judgment. ....but here's the rub....move down one verse to 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Notice the change of subject halfway through? We ALL leave this flesh to be judged but NOT everyone will put on an immortal soul. Mortal means likely to die....and many will perish in the consuming fire.

Did I come close to making sense or did I miss the mark again? Well, even if I'm wrong your 3rd observation is, for a fact, beyond contestation.

Hey there Nines&Twos.
Not a problem. From my perspective we aren't disagreeing.
I think most people will already be dead by that time but then there's various ideas on what was meant about shortening the time less no flesh would be saved.

Nines&Twos

05-16-2024, 12:39 PM

Yeah, I'm inclined to think if he was given the full 7 years...there would be a handful and not much more.

Bowdrie

05-16-2024, 02:48 PM

There are TWO judgements, and TWO resurrections 1, The judgement seat of Christ. 2, The Great White Throne, and the 1st resurrection unto life, the 2nd resurrection unto death.
#1 resurrection/judgement is for the Righteous/Saved, where we are judged NOT for sin, but for rewards/crowns, and yes, our positions in the "pecking order", if you will. Yes, there is a pecking order in the Kingdom.
That judgement comes before we enter into the millennial Kingdom.
#2, resurrection/judgement is The Great White Throne judgement, and it takes place after the 1,000 years of the millennial kingdom reign of our Lord and is ONLY for the unbelievers.
The unbelievers who have died in the past or during the tribulation, and those children born to the mortal people who are in the millennial reign who die during that 1,000 years without accepting the Lord will NOT be resurrected to face that judgement until the millennial reign is over.
In Rev. 20:6 you see both resurrections, the 1st unto life, the second is for those who have the "second death", the first death they had here on earth, the second death when thrown into everlasting torment.

Alabama358

05-16-2024, 03:16 PM

Many have explained that the "extra" 45 days are at the end of the 1290 days from the midpoint.
I don't think anyone (including Daniel) said that there is an EXTRA 45 days tacked on to the 7 year period

- 1290 days (Beginning of sorrows/Tribulation)

- 45 days (Great Tribulation)

- Twinkling of an eye... dead in Christ (Dan 12:1 ...thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book both Jew and Gentile) shall rise first and Then we which are alive and remain (both Jews and Gentiles) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

- 1245 days God's Wrath poured out on the wicked

The idea being that no "Groom/Husband"" would carry/bring his new "bride" into a home that was totally ruined and demolished from seven years of catastrophes and death/blood everywhere.
The "Groom/Husband" would need some time to clean-up the mess, get-rid of the evil ones, (separate the sheep/goats,) and recall all the Jewish people that have survived from around the world back to Israel, (less than 1/2 of the Jewish people in the world live in Israel today).

If you believe in creation as stated in Genesis... God created the Heavens and the Earth on the first day.
- The idea that God would need extra time to clean up is is laughable
- Needing time to recall Jews back to Israel is just more made up stuff that has no Scriptural backing

Anyway, the wording of Daniel is that there is a full seven years and the "extra" 45 days is "tacked on" at the end of the seven years, (but not part of it). Well if that is not something just made up... you should be able to supply chapter and verse that clearly says that the "45 days are tacked on" and "not part of the 7 years"

I think that our big job is to "spread the Word" as best we can, and God will get the increase.
If the "Word" being spread is false doctrine... Does God really get the increase? But if through vigorous discussion (which some brethren are afraid of) just one soul should move from false doctrine to the Truth of the Word... then God gets the increase?

Addition: One may think that theory/hypothesis I described as simple or childish, but if you give it some thought it's actually pretty profound.
It comes from what Jesus did NOT say, He did not say the NUMBER of days would be shortened, He said the "Days" would be shortened.
How do you "shorten" a day? You put less hours in it.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, and I first read about it ~20 years ago.
No not so much childish or simple...
More like in search of scripture to fit a false doctrine but cant find it... resulting in story telling and jawboning.

You have said words matter... let us take it down to a grade school level

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Subject - Great Tribulation
Conjunction - And (connecting verse 22 to 21)
Idioms - Days should be shortened (which days...the days of Great tribulation being brought to an abrupt end by means of gathering his Elect)

So, in short "Those days should be shortened" is not the earth being struck by a giant meteor slowing its rotation so that the actual unit of measure of a day changes from 24 hours to 16 hours and thus shortening the hours of Days. WOW!!! it is hard to believe that anyone would submit that as a cogent option to "those days being shortened" meaning

What it actually means is what it says... The Lord will return and gather his people, the Justified, the Church, His Elect cutting short the days of "Great Tribulation" for Those found in the Lambs book of Life

The remaining 1,245 days will be God's wrath poured out on a world that chose to reject Christ and the Gift of salvation.

Bowdrie

05-16-2024, 04:23 PM

exile

05-16-2024, 05:53 PM

"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you."

John 14:18-20 (E.S.V.)

exile

Alabama358

05-16-2024, 08:09 PM

You're sadly misinformed.
Those "remaining 1245 days" that you think of are in reality 1245 days of the anti-christ seeking out any and all who refuse his mark, seeking out any Jews to kill, and seeking out to kill any who profess belief/acceptance of the Lord. Well I would take that under advisement if you would or could produce some biblical grounds to justify your stance

Settle down, and don't accuse me of spreading false doctrine, more than once I said that I DID NOT subscribe to the hypothesis I posted, but only posted it as something I had heard/read about that others might want to think about.You said it was "profound" (but you left that part out) which I took to mean that you subscribe to it. My bad

Profound: (of a person or statement) having or showing great knowledge or insight.

As far as the "Groom/Bride" thing and the 45 days, I SPECIFFICLY said it was an IDEA that many have proposed, I did NOT say that it was doctrine that I believed in. Normally folks post stuff that they believe... Again, my bad

At some point you need to stop putting words in people's mouths that they did not say, it's bad form and it doesn't help any meaningful discussions between believers, it only shows your anger towards any thoughts that others may or may not have.

Putting words in your mouth??? I had never even heard of either one of those comically absurd ideas/doctrines before you posted them. So I am not sure how that qualifies for me putting words in to your mouth.
Here is a thought... it is a good idea and good form to post things that you believe in as opposed to things you do not or have not thought through, and if you do... then don't feel indignant when someone calls you out on it

Think of it this way, this may have saved a fella 20 years in the future from regurgitating that dribble and having someone flesh it out and make him feel foolish for even presenting it as profound.

Bowdrie

05-16-2024, 09:03 PM

For a relatively new person on the forum, I've posted a lot of words/paragraphs.
I'm sure that a lot of forum members have read at least some of what I've said, and they are welcome to disagree or to point out where they think I'm wrong in my opinions or how I interpret a passage.
That's the normal way of "discussion", and perhaps Revelation is the most talked about book where there are a million points of view.
But referring to someone's words as absurd, or drivel, or silly, or false doctrine, or stupid, or blather, or any such as, is just being combative and antagonistic, and Paul's epistles warn against such behavior within the body of believers.
Of all those who've replied to any posts I've made you are the only one who has acted that way.
That tells me that the problem with viewpoints/interpretations/opinions lies with you.
If you want to read some Scripture that might really cause some varied opinions try Daniel chapter 11, or Revelation chapters 17 and 18.
To get back to the title of the thread, "Are you ready for the Rapture"
Yes, I am. I wish it had happened yesterday, I'm ready for today, and I'll keep the "Blessed Hope" that it happens tomorrow.

Good Cheer

05-17-2024, 08:24 AM

Nines&Twos

05-17-2024, 09:29 AM

I know a lot of people have different ideas on why He would say that to people who think they are saved.

Like getting in the sack with the 1st one to come along peacefully and prosperously...performing miracles, calling fire from the sky and claiming 'i am god"
Woe unto those who are with child and giving suck ....has nothing to do with childbirth...it's a warning against infidelity....how would you like to come home after a long journey and find your bride nursing someone else's baby? You'd tell that ole gal real quick...get out...I don't know you!

God Bless you Good Cheer. Have a great day friend.

Alabama358

05-20-2024, 03:05 PM

Hey Bowdrie.
My blessed hope is that I am not one of the surprised ones, that He doesn't look at me and say "I never knew you", that I may be found acceptable. Yeah, I know a lot of people have different ideas on why He would say that to people who think they are saved. I'm just saying what my particular blessed hope is.

Yeah Cheer, you are right on point there... it all boils down to hearing the sweet words "Well done, thou good and faithful servant"

It sure does make one ponder about the fellas in Matthew 7 that said "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" and got the "...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." judgement

Prophesying, casting out devils and doing many wonderful works... all without actually believing on the Lord for their salvation, hard to imagine... but it is there so it is profitable to think and talk about. My guess would they did all their works for filthy lucres sake as in Titus 1
Titus 1:11-13
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

It should be as easy as Just believing on the Lord as seen with the thief hanging next to Christ in Luke 23... he did no works, no good deeds, the only box he had checked was belief

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

.429&H110

05-20-2024, 08:25 PM

A few threads were treading on Calvinism.
Old Calvin might have been right, he might have been wrong...
He was a man.

Calvin launched my Puritans, the Congregationalists, who despised wealth.
And so the Commonwealth of Massachusetts

Calvin split the faith yet again and caused what Timothy was warned of.
"Vain..."

Are you ready for the rapture is a push question asking for a yes.
Can't be no or maybe
but you are assuming a fact not in evidence (yet)
but we have enough evidence of salvation right here right now.
Evidence of people saved, lives changed, prayers answered.

We must evangelize, apologize, lead from the front, die trying,
"and then the end shall come" (Matthew 24) in a way God sees fit as He Wills.
Soon.

Alabama358

05-21-2024, 10:40 AM

...but we have enough evidence of salvation right here right now.
Evidence of people saved, lives changed, prayers answered.

Amen!!!

Bowdrie

05-25-2024, 12:13 AM

For those who believe in a pre-trib rapture, the most common passage to use in defense of that position is 1st Thessalonians 4:15>17, and that the first few verses in 2nd Thessalonians are talking about the man of sin/tribulation.
Well, actually 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 shows the rapture before the man of sin is revealed.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

The words "Falling away" have been used for over 400 years to describe somehow that people lose their faith, or they stop believing, or they give-up faith/believe.
Those words "Falling away" only started in 1611 with the KJV.
The original Greek text uses, "n apostaooia", (sorry, I can't type the accent marks,) and the original meaning did not mean what we call "Apostate", as in "become an apostate", or "fall away from faith".
The original meaning of "apostaooia" was "Departing", the little "n" prefix signified A ONE TIME EVENT.
People have been "falling away" from the faith since Adam, that's been ongoing since then, where "n apostaooia" is a singular event.

1, 382AD Jerome's Latin Vulgate, "Departure first".
2, 1384 Wycliff Bible, "Departynge first".
3, 1526 Tyndale Bible, "Departynge first".
4, 1535 Cloverdale Bible, "Departynge first".
5, 1539 Crammer Bible, "Departing first".
6, 1576 Breeches Bible, "Departing first".
7, 1583 Beeza Bible, "Departing first".
8, 1608 Geneva Bible, "Departing first".
9, 1611 King James Bible, "Falling away".

The word "Harpazo" is a "snatching away", the difference between Harpazo and "n apostaoosia" is a matter of degree not one of different action, the two might be considered as "will vs shall", they both imply the same outcome.
One might also notice that Paul didn't say anything about "departing from the faith", to use the original language, what he said was: ",,,,,that day shall not come, unless there come a departure first".
The "departure" is the church "departing first" before the man of sin is revealed.
How did it get changed in the KJV? I have no idea, perhaps one of the scribes had an extra glass of wine at lunchtime.

Good Cheer

05-27-2024, 10:17 AM

About mistranslations, thought you might enjoy this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPeSCcFLYR4&t=1644s

Alabama358

06-04-2024, 09:54 PM

For those who believe in a pre-trib rapture, the most common passage to use in defense of that position is 1st Thessalonians 4:15>17,
I am not sure how one could boast the most common passage to defend a pre-Trib rapture doctrine is 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17...
Just to be CLEAR, there is not one word (NOTHING) in this passage talking about the regeneration (rapture) taking place before the 7 year period spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Nothing clear or even remotely ambiguous that suggest a pre-trib doctrine. it is just not there, not one word...
It is however talking about the rapture

Also I thought the pre-tib thing was suppose to be a secret disappearance with no Signs and Wonders but just "the Church" " the Bride" is disappeared (The Lord descending from heaven with a shout of the Archangel, The Trump of God Blasting doesn't sound secret or low key to me)...

So I am not certain how this could be the most common passage to defend said doctrine.
The passage does seem to line up with Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Daniel 12 etc. all which are detailing the rapture.

and that the first few verses in 2nd Thessalonians are talking about the man of sin/tribulation.
Well, actually 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 shows the rapture before the man of sin is revealed.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

The words "Falling away" have been used for over 400 years to describe somehow...

In this passage Paul is offering encouragement to the church of the Thessalonians (They thought they had missed the rapture that he had spoke of in 1 Thessalonians) and rebuking the false doctrine that the day of Christ was at hand or that they somehow had missed it.

2 Thessalonians 2:2-3
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Through some word-smithing some have tried to change the "falling away"... to "the departure"... to "the rapture" thus creating something to point at as a pre-trib thingy
Wow... what a stretch... Some folks think that they are smarter then the 47+ scholars, theologians, expert linguist that labored for 7 years to put the KJV together

Lets go ahead and try to re-write that scripture with your translation.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Which day? The day of Christ, The Rapture) shall not come, except there come a falling away(according to your translation "the Rapture") first,

So "The Rapture" shall not come, except there come "the Rapture", first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It really does not make much sense when you you think it through and write it out...

Also it is worth mentioning that you seem to disregard the word AND... Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And is a coordinating conjunction. It is used to connect two words, phrases, clauses or prefixes together... The falling away and the revealing of the man of sin are connected as the same time reference ... not separated by 3 1/2 years

How did it get changed in the KJV? I have no idea, perhaps one of the scribes had an extra glass of wine at lunchtime.

The suggestion that the KJV Bible is some how corrupt in translation because of a drinking scribe is very telling

I like to think that the 47+ scholars, theologians, expert linguist that assembled the KJV were guided by the Holy Ghost similar to what Peter had to say

2 Peter 1:21
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Bowdrie

06-04-2024, 11:54 PM

It's become quite plain that you can't even realize the last sentence I wrote was in jest, tongue-in-cheek.
Anyway, the man of sin comes on the scene very shortly after the rapture but he is not shown to the Jews as the anti-christ until the mid-point when he kills the two witnesses and defiles the temple and declares himself god.
Hey, I'm tired of being baited by someone who has swallowed all the Replacement Theology.
You want to stay on earth for the tribulation?
Be my guest, you know, sometimes God gives people what they want even if it's not good for them.
So go ahead, crawl in your bunker, eat bugs and drink piss, and then get your head chopped off, if you're lucky maybe one of those 100lb hailstones will smash you before someone turns you in to the head choppers.
Me, I'm outta here, flying up to heaven with millions of others.
In the short time we got left on this earth you might want to watch this, but you'll need some courage to take the risk of being offended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rczHh_6RHKc&t=992s

Alabama358

06-05-2024, 11:52 AM

Anyway, the man of sin comes on the scene very shortly after the rapture but he is not shown to the Jews as the anti-christ until the mid-point when he kills the two witnesses and defiles the temple and declares himself god.That is what you would like it to say... but what does it really say?

2 Thessalonians 2:2-3
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

What it does not say is ..."the man of sin comes on the scene very shortly after the rapture but he is not shown to the Jews as the anti-christ until the mid-point when he kills the two witnesses and defiles the temple and declares himself god."

What is Does say... Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

SO... Before that day can happen... FIRST there must be a falling away and the man of sin be revealed as the son of perdition...(abomination of desolation, how else would he be revealed as the son of perdition?)

Nothing about coming on scene later or being revealed to the Jews later on...in 3 1/2 years

In fact this is being written to the Thessalonians... you know Greek Christian brethren

Hey, I'm tired of being baited by someone who has swallowed all the Replacement Theology. lol....simply responding to your post is not baiting you

Replacement Theology... is that one of those youtube things?

You want to stay on earth for the tribulation?
Be my guest, you know, sometimes God gives people what they want even if it's not good for them.
So go ahead, crawl in your bunker, eat bugs and drink piss, and then get your head chopped off, if you're lucky maybe one of those 100lb hailstones will smash you before someone turns you in to the head choppers.
Me, I'm outta here, flying up to heaven with millions of others.
It is somewhat hilarious that I give you solid scripture and doctrine and you give me... bunker living, eating bugs and drinking urine.
Just a point of fact... Redemption is not like the Progressive choice thing where one chooses whether you identify male or female... Redemption is what the Lord says it is... in his word, the Bible...

The only choice you have is "Believe on Jesus to Life" or "Reject Jesus on to Death"...

You do not get to choose the timing of the Lords return and day of redemption.

In the short time we got left on this earth you might want to watch this, but you'll need some courage to take the risk of being offended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rczHh_6RHKc&t=992sNo thanks... Youtube is for entertainment and not to shape or define doctrine, That is the Job of the Holy Ghost. (and FYI, it doesn't take courage to sit in front of your computer and watch youtube)...
If you are looking for doctrine, I would suggest you spend more time between the covers of your bible and less time zoned out on youtube videos or reading worthless rags written by man.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Bowdrie

06-05-2024, 02:56 PM

It's Ok brother, when the rapture happens all the truly saved will be caught-up even if they don't believe in the rapture.
(If we see each other in the air, we can high-five each other,)
But it's sad that so many Christians deprive themselves of the "Blessed Hope" that Paul speaks about.
They somehow think that all the verses that say that believers are not subject to "The Wrath" means that God will protect them during the seven years.
They've missed the entire message; they've talked themselves into a position that if they have enough faith that they'll be able to "Endure to the end".
The end of what? The end of their lives, or the end of the tribulation?
Too many Christians still think that the tribulation is for the Church, it's not for the Church, we've already been saved, we don't have to go thru God's wrath to prove our faith, (we're in the "Age of Grace").
When the rapture happens the "Age of Grace" is over, and those who do accept the Lord during that seven years WILL have to "prove" their faith, they'll prove it by shedding their own blood, (head chopped off,) because they would not accept the blood that Jesus shed on the cross for salvation.
The tribulation is God's judgement on an unbelieving world and on Israel.
During those seven years ~1/2 of the world's population will die, but in Israel ~2/3rds will die, and if Jesus didn't come back down to earth when He does all of Israel would be wiped-out from the advancing armies of the antichrist.
Yes, at the beginning of those seven years the antichrist will be welcomed by Israel, he signs the covenant that allows the Israelites to rebuild their temple and re-institute animal sacrifices.
But when the abomination of desolation, (the antichrist,) defiles the temple, stops the sacrifices and declares that everyone worship him, that is when he is "revealed" to the Jews as an imposter.
Yes, the antichrist will be "revealed" to many at the very beginning of the seven years, there will no doubt be millions of people around the world that after the rapture will say to themselves, "Hey, what my Christian friends told me about is really true and that guy I see on TV must be the antichrist that Joe mentioned".
Christians right here and now in this age of grace need to stop thinking about a "Faith plus Works" equals salvation.
When the age of grace ends at the rapture, those next seven years WILL be a "faith plus works" to be saved, for most, the "works" will be not taking the mark, (so no food or medical care for you,) and allowing themselves to be killed.
When the "age of grace" ends at the rapture God re-institutes Mosaic Law, and "faith alone" will not save anybody.
The book of James is a good "owner's manual" for those in general and the Jews in particular to get thru those seven years.
Actually, all of the books after the epistles of Paul, (James to Jude,) are written as if they were handbooks to survive what's written in Revelation.
Christians today need to put aside all this non-scriptural thinking about bunkers/guns/ammo/food/water and fighting or enduring till the "End".
Be joyful and thankful that Jesus is taking us out of here before an insane bloody world destroying period of time

Alabama358

06-05-2024, 03:56 PM

Bowdrie

06-05-2024, 06:51 PM

Sorry Alabama, there will never be enough chapter and verse to satisfy someone who thinks the whole Bible is written just for the "Church/Church Age/Age of Grace/Time of the Gentiles.
On another point, in the months/years past there seemed to be a lot more people on this forum who actually had a good working knowledge of scripture.
Where did they all go? Were they chased away by angry posts from those who had different opinions?
Oh well, maybe they just gave-up and got tired of being personally attacked for every word they said.

Alabama358

06-05-2024, 08:31 PM

Sorry Alabama, there will never be enough chapter and verse to satisfy someone who thinks the whole Bible is written just for the "Church/Church Age/Age of Grace/Time of the Gentiles. I am not really even sure what that means
On another point, in the months/years past there seemed to be a lot more people on this forum who actually had a good working knowledge of scripture.
Where did they all go? Were they chased away by angry posts from those who had different opinions? Or maybe other folks do not consider different opinions to be angry post
Oh well, maybe they just gave-up and got tired of being personally attacked for every word they said.

The whole thing kind of sounds like a passive/aggressive shot to me. [smilie=l:

327225

Good Cheer

06-11-2024, 07:24 AM

That is what you would like it to say... but what does it really say?

2 Thessalonians 2:2-3
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

What it does not say is ..."the man of sin comes on the scene very shortly after the rapture but he is not shown to the Jews as the anti-christ until the mid-point when he kills the two witnesses and defiles the temple and declares himself god."

What is Does say... Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

SO... Before that day can happen... FIRST there must be a falling away and the man of sin be revealed as the son of perdition...(abomination of desolation, how else would he be revealed as the son of perdition?)

Nothing about coming on scene later or being revealed to the Jews later on...in 3 1/2 years

In fact this is being written to the Thessalonians... you know Greek Christian brethren

lol....simply responding to your post is not baiting you

Replacement Theology... is that one of those youtube things?

It is somewhat hilarious that I give you solid scripture and doctrine and you give me... bunker living, eating bugs and drinking urine.
Just a point of fact... Redemption is not like the Progressive choice thing where one chooses whether you identify male or female... Redemption is what the Lord says it is... in his word, the Bible...

The only choice you have is "Believe on Jesus to Life" or "Reject Jesus on to Death"...

You do not get to choose the timing of the Lords return and day of redemption.
No thanks... Youtube is for entertainment and not to shape or define doctrine, That is the Job of the Holy Ghost. (and FYI, it doesn't take courage to sit in front of your computer and watch youtube)...
If you are looking for doctrine, I would suggest you spend more time between the covers of your bible and less time zoned out on youtube videos or reading worthless rags written by man.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

We should have a fun thread evaluating what the world looks like (political, economic, religious characteristics) when the man of sin is revealed.

Nines&Twos

06-11-2024, 10:09 AM

We should have a fun thread evaluating what the world looks like (political, economic, religious characteristics) when the man of sin is revealed.

That could be a nice learning tool. It won't be death and beheadings and other mindless violence. Lucy is far too intelligent for that. I think too many times people grossly underestimate the enemy. Our Father made him from top shelf materials and did not cut any corners in doing so. Ezekiel 28 will tell you exactly what he is like. Horns, tail, pitchfork and red long johns?? NO! How will the world be deceived by a Hitler 2.0? They wouldn't. The most godless on earth will not tolerate that behavior. MANY will be deceived as Revelation 13:8 so declares. You won't get the world to wh0re after you with openly evil behavior. Daniel 11:21 Peacefully and with flatteries he comes.

What will the world look like? The most beautiful creature you have ever laid eyes upon will be making promises and solving all your problems...just worship me. He will fix the broken world systems, make peace between all nations. Put a chicken in everybody's pot. Perform miracles...fire from the sky Revelation 13:13...that's NOT the 1st time he's done that trick BTW...go back to the oldest book in the KJV and read Job 1:16...........It'll be Happy Happy Happy. ......until the 7th trump sounds....then they will beg for the mountains to fall upon them.

Start the thread GoodCheer...sounds like fun.

Alabama358

06-11-2024, 12:36 PM

We should have a fun thread evaluating what the world looks like (political, economic, religious characteristics) when the man of sin is revealed.

Fun indeed!!! [smilie=l:

I think you would see folks "opinions" light-years apart, with everything from...

Man of sin Character - Handsome debonair James Bond righteous dude To Greek Medusa Gorgon type with snakes in the hair and glowing eyes to turn you to stone.

Political environment - Freedom and Love To Cruel abusive tyranny

Economic environment - Booming eat drink and be merry To Starvation and wickedness abounding

Religious Characteristics - Independent fundamental Baptist To Muzzies To Judaism

I was recently down in Florida visiting kin folk... I was blown away at the divide...

One household they were like a perfect programed well tuned MSNBC bloviating that Trump is the Devil, all republicans are evil and the Supreme Court is worthless and have been taken over by the republicans

At the Next household they were Biden and the Demon-crats are wicked and treasonous and the worst examples of human-beings that mankind has ever seen.

These were well seasoned folks in the senior years and 100% non-flexible ready to fight for their cause!!! lol

It would be really fun to see it in Poll Form to get the tally on where folks are here at CB

Bowdrie

06-11-2024, 05:05 PM

That could be a nice learning tool. It won't be death and beheadings and other mindless violence. It'll be Happy Happy Happy. ......until the 7th trump sounds....then they will beg for the mountains to fall upon them.

If you think it'll be "Happy, Happy, Happy, until the 7th Trump sounds" you need to go back and start at Rev. 6:1 when the seals start to be opened.
1st Seal, Man-of Sin arrives on world stage.
2nd, Seal, take peace from the earth, people kill each other, no peace.
3rd. Seal, pestilence, no food, work all day for a couple loaves of bread.
4th. Seal, death and Hades, 1/4 of the population dies by sword. famine. plague.
5th. Seal, now we see the millions of martyrs that have already been killed by the antichrist for their faith.
6th. Seal, huge earthquakes, sun turns black, stars fall, mountains and islands removed from their places.
7th. Seal, this just starts the "Trumpet judgements", the first 6 Seals were just the opening act.

Rounding off the numbers we have ~8 billion people on earth.
Between the 4th and 5th Seals there are already ~2 billion dead.
They'll be using excavators to dig holes and pushing bodies into those holes with road graders and bulldozers.
With the Trumpet Judgements and the Bowl Judgements there are still another ~2 billion left to die.
None of it's going to be "Happy",
If you think it won't be "death and beheadings", then check-out Rev. 6:9, the 5th Seal.
When you go to Rev. 8:7 that's only the 1st. Trumpet, and everything in the opening of the first 6 Seals has already happened.

Good Cheer

06-11-2024, 09:33 PM

Well hot doggies! It's fun already!

Nines&Twos

06-12-2024, 09:19 AM

Well hot doggies! It's fun already!

Now, how would you weave the abomination known as 'artificial intelligence' into this tapestry. AI has got to be top of the list for man's hubris. Nothing more than an attempt to be like our Father but man cannot create a single thing. By the very laws of physics 'man' so sottishly thinks are unbreakable....nothing can be created or destroyed..only changed from one form to another. ...another subject for another time.
Man is desperate to prove he can make something. Reminds me of a joke I heard a while back....man finally discovered the process by which clay can be fashioned into life...Our Father showed up and said.."Wow, that's pretty impressive...Show me how you do it." Man reached down and scooped up a handful of clay to get started and Our Father said "Oh no!! Not with MY clay. Show me the clay YOU made.".....more digression...sorry.

It's my personal belief the 'Mark of the Beast' is not a mark you wear. It's not a stupid chip under your skin of a tattoo or some other nonsense. To have his mark IN your head as it says...you believe in your mind and heart he IS the messiah. His mark in your hand? What do you do with your hands...you work. So the mark in your hand is the work you do for the beast system and worshipping the wicked one. How then will this AI play into that? I'm not well educated but I'm no fool either..in the world we live in today...AI is extremely powerful. Just go to facebook or youtube and see all the fake junk and some of it is so very well made. AI can literally conjure an image or video of whatever you tell it. When the sheep cannot tell real from fiction...the people feeding that information to the masses become very powerful. Perhaps that's the system that breaks and is fixed by lucifer's office of antichrist.

Don't want to get too longwinded but while we are talking about technology....how is it that ole lucy is gonna get to the earth when the 6th trump sounds? We know Micheal will cast him out with his cronies but how will they get here? Short/small minded to think he just gets tossed like a rock and pfft! here he is. Our Father doesn't work that way. HE always works within the nature of HIS own construct. He's certainly not bound to it but it's been his choice to operate in more or less 'natural' methods. He didn't zap Korah and his followers like some dungeons and dragons wizard....the earth swallowed them up...at the command of our Father. Earth quake, sink hole...very natural. So how will the little horn box cedar 'physically' get to earth? Could it be he uses the same method our Father used when he visited with His throne during Ezekiel's lifetime? What Ezekiel describes is pretty obvious when you consider he was doing the best he could for a man who hadn't seen anything more advanced than the wheel. In the manuscripts you will find the Hebrew says Finely Polished Bronze. Now look at all the "UFO" sightings....sooner or later the truth of all that WILL come out.
You want to see the world go stupid and bow before one entity? Have him be beautiful beyond description, call fire from the sky, have the answers to all the world's problems and have him travel to and from upon the earth (as he said in Job) and have him do it in an amber disk. The sheeple will come down with a case of the dumb like you have never seen. ......lastly...He ain't coming alone. We know the fallen angels will be coming back too. This is why a woman should have her head covered...not her HAIR and not with a stupid veil...she sould be covered with Christ for God forbid she be seduced by one them. Look at how disgusting (sexually) this world is....I don't believe they will HAVE to seduce the people of earth....the whor3s will be lined up and willing.

Far fetched for the milk drinkers I know. Read it. Make up your own mind and NEVER let anyone but Yeshua Jesus the Christ tell you different.

Good Cheer

06-12-2024, 12:34 PM

Now, how would you weave the abomination known as 'artificial intelligence' into this tapestry. AI has got to be top of the list for man's hubris. Nothing more than an attempt to be like our Father but man cannot create a single thing. By the very laws of physics 'man' so sottishly thinks are unbreakable....nothing can be created or destroyed..only changed from one form to another. ...another subject for another time.
Man is desperate to prove he can make something. Reminds me of a joke I heard a while back....man finally discovered the process by which clay can be fashioned into life...Our Father showed up and said.."Wow, that's pretty impressive...Show me how you do it." Man reached down and scooped up a handful of clay to get started and Our Father said "Oh no!! Not with MY clay. Show me the clay YOU made.".....more digression...sorry.

It's my personal belief the 'Mark of the Beast' is not a mark you wear. It's not a stupid chip under your skin of a tattoo or some other nonsense. To have his mark IN your head as it says...you believe in your mind and heart he IS the messiah. His mark in your hand? What do you do with your hands...you work. So the mark in your hand is the work you do for the beast system and worshipping the wicked one. How then will this AI play into that? I'm not well educated but I'm no fool either..in the world we live in today...AI is extremely powerful. Just go to facebook or youtube and see all the fake junk and some of it is so very well made. AI can literally conjure an image or video of whatever you tell it. When the sheep cannot tell real from fiction...the people feeding that information to the masses become very powerful. Perhaps that's the system that breaks and is fixed by lucifer's office of antichrist.

Don't want to get too longwinded but while we are talking about technology....how is it that ole lucy is gonna get to the earth when the 6th trump sounds? We know Micheal will cast him out with his cronies but how will they get here? Short/small minded to think he just gets tossed like a rock and pfft! here he is. Our Father doesn't work that way. HE always works within the nature of HIS own construct. He's certainly not bound to it but it's been his choice to operate in more or less 'natural' methods. He didn't zap Korah and his followers like some dungeons and dragons wizard....the earth swallowed them up...at the command of our Father. Earth quake, sink hole...very natural. So how will the little horn box cedar 'physically' get to earth? Could it be he uses the same method our Father used when he visited with His throne during Ezekiel's lifetime? What Ezekiel describes is pretty obvious when you consider he was doing the best he could for a man who hadn't seen anything more advanced than the wheel. In the manuscripts you will find the Hebrew says Finely Polished Bronze. Now look at all the "UFO" sightings....sooner or later the truth of all that WILL come out.
You want to see the world go stupid and bow before one entity? Have him be beautiful beyond description, call fire from the sky, have the answers to all the world's problems and have him travel to and from upon the earth (as he said in Job) and have him do it in an amber disk. The sheeple will come down with a case of the dumb like you have never seen. ......lastly...He ain't coming alone. We know the fallen angels will be coming back too. This is why a woman should have her head covered...not her HAIR and not with a stupid veil...she sould be covered with Christ for God forbid she be seduced by one them. Look at how disgusting (sexually) this world is....I don't believe they will HAVE to seduce the people of earth....the whor3s will be lined up and willing.

Far fetched for the milk drinkers I know. Read it. Make up your own mind and NEVER let anyone but Yeshua Jesus the Christ tell you different.

Is predictive programming a tool of social engineering?
Or is it the chance product of creative minds exposed to like content?

I asked that because of various examples of fiction media content that actually deal with the very scenario you're venturing into. Take the spiritual contest between Count Iblis and the beings of light that was featured in the original Battlestar Galactica series. Or how about Earth: Final Conflict created by Gene Roddenberry (a fellow who it seems never could keep his fingers out of his customers' religious beliefs). And speaking of Roddenberry, the story lines in the original Star Trek series were all over the place trying to sideswipe Christianity and plant seeds of doubt in the minds of the viewers. There are many other examples. And really, I brought that up to say this...

Seems to me that content in fictional comedy and dramas is just about as composed and manicured as it is for the infotainment daily deception broadcasts. And when you give their themes a really good Jack Elam stare what you're gonna see is that they're preaching a message. One of those messages has long been the space brothers. So yeah, even if I was biblically illiterate I'd have to suspect the public was being prepped for that.

Bowdrie

06-12-2024, 01:02 PM

It's my personal belief the 'Mark of the Beast' is not a mark you wear. It's not a stupid chip under your skin of a tattoo or some other nonsense.

Oh boy, now that's one of those things that those with an alphabet of letters after their names have discussed for a couple thousand years.
They most often reference the "Mark of Cain" that God put on him.
I don't think God put some kind of tattoo or disfigurement on Cain either, I think God did something that made Cain look "different".
Some of the scholars think the "mark" is something similar, that it makes those who receive it look "different", as though their DNA was changed, and they became no longer redeemable by God, either thru the shed blood of Jesus or by their own shed blood like the martyrs.
It does say in 2nd Thessalonians 2:11 that God sends those people a "strong delusion", I think the strong delusion will cause them to line-up and get that "mark", whatever it is.
I'm also reminded that God said our wisdom was as foolishness to Him.

Nines&Twos

06-12-2024, 03:00 PM

Is predictive programming a tool of social engineering?
Or is it the chance product of creative minds exposed to like content?

I asked that because of various examples of fiction media content that actually deal with the very scenario you're venturing into. Take the spiritual contest between Count Iblis and the beings of light that was featured in the original Battlestar Galactica series. Or how about Earth: Final Conflict created by Gene Roddenberry (a fellow who it seems never could keep his fingers out of his customers' religious beliefs). And speaking of Roddenberry, the story lines in the original Star Trek series were all over the place trying to sideswipe Christianity and plant seeds of doubt in the minds of the viewers. There are many other examples. And really, I brought that up to say this...

Seems to me that content in fictional comedy and dramas is just about as composed and manicured as it is for the infotainment daily deception broadcasts. And when you give their themes a really good Jack Elam stare what you're gonna see is that they're preaching a message. One of those messages has long been the space brothers. So yeah, even if I was biblically illiterate I'd have to suspect the public was being prepped for that.

I'm completely with you...it does feel as though we are being 'groomed' to accept something.
Tommy Lee Jones can be appropriately quoted here (from MIB no less!)

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous creatures and you know it.

...and that's EXACTLY how it'll be when the 'instead-of-christ' shows up claiming to be whatever lie he choses to propagate. The masses are NOT prepared for it. The sheeple can NOT process an entity that can do the things that have only ever existed in fiction. They are going to lose their minds [as if they had much to lose] and go plum bonkers. If people will trample one another to death [sadly;literally] over some loser rock star or celebrity...how much more will they go ape for one who glistens in the sun and cannot be harmed by any bullet man has ever cast?

Alabama358

06-12-2024, 03:40 PM

Joel 2:28-31 (KJV)
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Alabama358

06-12-2024, 03:49 PM

The sheeple can NOT process an entity that can do the things that have only ever existed in fiction. They are going to lose their minds [as if they had much to lose] and go plum bonkers.

I thought we were the Sheep?

Matthew 25
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

:kidding:

Nines&Twos

06-12-2024, 05:14 PM

The sheep know the voice of their shepherd.

The sheeple are sottish idolators.

Bowdrie

06-12-2024, 06:47 PM

The terms, "Sheep, Flock, Shepard" are Jewish terms that were only used by Jesus and the Jewish people/Israel.
Matt. 15:24 tells us exactly who Jesus came to minister to.
In the epistles of Paul, he not once refers to "we the Church", (saved under the Gospel of Grace as written in 1st Corinthians 15:1>4,) as "Sheep" or a "Flock", or to Jesus as a "Shepard".
When Jesus spoke the parable(s) in Matt. 25:31>46 the "Age of Grace" had not yet come about, Jesus is speaking about the Jews who will enter the "Kingdom".
Notice that the parables contain, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like,,,,,,,: etc.
They were for the Jews, Jesus was a Jew, his audiences were Jews, He was the Messiah that they didn't accept, and in Matt. 13 Jesus switched over to parables, as the Pharisees wouldn't understand them.
We the Church were never promised any "Kingdom", we were told by Paul that we will inhabit "Heavenly Places".
Notice all the words in the verses about "feeding, visiting, providing clothes/water" etc.
Those words all pertain to "Works".
When the tribulation starts the "Age of Grace" ends, and the Mosaic Law comes back. During the tribulation people will not be saved by believing in 1st Corinthians 15:1>4, they will only be saved just as they were under Mosaic Law, "Faith + Works".
John 1:11, Jesus came as the Messiah for the Jews, they'd been waiting for their Messiah but were blind and wouldn't accept Him.
Romans 1:16 is after His death/burial/resurrection, and the new Gospel was given to Paul to preach to the Gentiles.
If an unsaved person wants to get saved during the tribulation they need to read the books of Hebrews thru Jude.
Hebrews will get your faith up-to-speed, and James thru Jude will show you how to get your "works" meshed with your faith, James to Jude are good "owner's manuals" to get thru the tribulation.
If an unsaved person right now before the tribulation wants to get saved and follow a Christian path/life, then they need to read the epistles of Paul.

Alabama358

06-12-2024, 09:01 PM

:roll: [smilie=1:

Alabama358

06-14-2024, 11:47 PM

John 1:11, Jesus came as the Messiah for the Jews, they'd been waiting for their Messiah but were blind and wouldn't accept Him.
Romans 1:16 is after His death/burial/resurrection, and the new Gospel was given to Paul to preach to the Gentiles.

"The New Gospel" as in different from the one Jesus preached???

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Galatians 1:6-8
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Paul says the Gospel of Christ Which is not another... not the "New Gospel given unto me after the death/burial/resurrection to preach to you Gentiles" (you see... it is hard to defile scripture with some bogus interpretation when you actually insert the scripture chapter and verse)

So any other or "New" Gospel is only meant to pervert the Gospel of Christ... for example: there are two separate programs... one for the Jew and a different one for the Gentile/Greek

Bowdrie

06-15-2024, 02:19 AM

You just won't stop will you Alabama, you're like the Pharisees who leaped at every chance to trip Jesus up.
I should take it as a badge of honor, if they would attack Jesus who am I to think I wouldn't be attacked.
Anyway, yes, there were different Gospels preached over a fairly short period of time, if you know scripture like the Pharisees did, (or claim to,) then you would know that.

Read Matt. 4:17, "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

You "Might" notice that Jesus preached the "Kingdom of Heaven", guess what, that was BEFORE he died to save people from sin, Jesus was preaching the Mosaic Law of salvation, (read the Psalms where David is always asking for forgiveness).

Now go to Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

That is what He told the disciples to preach AFTER He had resurrected and paid the price for sin.
You "Might" notice that Jesus is now speaking about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
You "Might" notice that Jesus didn't say anything about a "Kingdom"

Why?, because He had been rejected as "King", (and crucified,) and now things had changed.
But, notice that Jesus told the disciples to still "Baptize" people, and that's what Peter and James, and John and Phillip did,
But when Paul was commissioned by Jesus in Acts 9, the Gospel changed again, now people were "Baptized" by the Holy Spirit" when they believed in what Paul wrote in 1st. Corinthians 15"1>4

Can you see?, Can you rightly divide? Can you understand now how there were three Gospels in just ~4 years.
1, Matt 4:17, Before Jesus was crucified, "Repent for the Kingdom is at hand", or "Repent and be baptized for the Kingdom is at hand".
2, Matt 28:19, After Jesus rose, "Baptizing in the name of Father, Son, Holy Spirit".
3, 1st, Corinthians 15:1>4, After Paul's commission, "By this are you saved,,, that Christ died for our sins,,,,etc., and no water baptism.

Can you see now Alabama?

Hey, since you know all about scripture maybe you can tell me the difference between the meanings of what Jesus says in John 3:3 and John 3:5.
3:3, Except a man be "Born Again", he cannot "See" the kingdom of God., (Emphasis mine).).
3:5, Except a man be "Born of Water" AND of the "Spirit, he cannot "ENTER" into the kingdom of God., (Emphasis mine).

What say you?

Alabama358

06-15-2024, 11:54 AM

You just won't stop will you Alabama, you're like the Pharisees who leaped at every chance to trip Jesus up.
I should take it as a badge of honor, if they would attack Jesus who am I to think I wouldn't be attacked.

So I represent the Pharisees (as in the synagogue of Satan) and you represent Jesus, Lord of Lords. (except Christ did not make "typos" tell lies or revise scripture or translation there of to suit a weak false doctrine, or flip flop from week to week on what his dividing of the word was) other then that... I could see where consider yourself a christ (little c)

Maybe we are in the end times... and this sort of hogwash is what Paul described as the Falling away...

2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Timothy chapter 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Most folks have been watching for "wars and rumors of wars" or "A Third Temple" and missing The Falling away/Apostasy that is being pushed right in front of their eyes.

Isaiah 5:20-21
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Sounds like he was describing Portland or Sanfransicko or any of the other Liberal progressive cesspools

Bowdrie

06-15-2024, 01:19 PM

I make no comparison of myself to Jesus, rather all of us who are saved are somewhat represented by John the Baptist in Luke 3:16.
Unless we're a pastor that does baptisms, we don't go around baptizing people, but we're still trying to reach the lost by proclaiming the gospel.
I might add that John 15:20>21 seems indicative of your actions towards me.

Also, do you have an answer yet for what Jesus meant in John 3:3 and 3:5?
I'm sure that many of us on this forum would be interested in your interpretation.
Instead of attacking others, let's hear what your interpretations are.

Alabama358

06-17-2024, 12:58 PM

I might add that John 15:20>21 seems indicative of your actions towards me.

John 15:20-21
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

First... let us have a quick class on rightfully dividing the word... Persecute vs Rebuke (strange that a fellow that opened a thread on rightfully dividing the word actually struggles with doing just that)

In John 15:20-21 that you reference, Christ is talking about being persecuted by the Judaizers (the unbelieving Jews who knew not God... Non-Saved)

So, when you say (and I quote) "I might add that John 15:20>21 seems indicative of "your" actions towards "me"."

The comparison you are making is that I am the unbelieving Judaiser persecuting you playing the role of Christ (strange and kind of weird...that is the 2nd time you have made this comparison)

Persecute VS Rebuke (let us rightly divide the meaning of the two)

When a born again saved man hears another alleged saved christian speaking of foolish things such as

- "Sodom was not destroyed because of sin"
- "The earth being struck by a giant meteor throwing it off its axis thus shortening the days refereed to in Matt 24"
- "The days were shortened so that the very elect would not be deceived" (Total twisting)
- "Much of the Bible was written to the Jews only"
- "The Entire 7 year period is all God's Wrath"
- "after His death/burial/resurrection, and the new Gospel was given to Paul" as if there is more then 1 gospel
To name a few of your whoppers..

You see, when you as a believer hear bad or false doctrine you should (and are even commanded to) rebuke such bad information With Scripture to keep it from spreading amongst the brethren.

Was Christ Persecuting beloved Peter... or rebuking???

- Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

- 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

- Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

- 1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

- 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

- Proverbs 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.

I hope now you can see the difference between being Rebuked and being Persecuted

And a point of fact... I think there are way to many weak-knead saved men that are afraid to rebuke foolishness or bad doctrine because they are afraid they will offend some thumb sucker that is always whining about "why cant we all just get along" These are often aged folks that love to sit around and complain about the decline of humanity and the church but keep their candle under a bushel.

Matthew 5:15-16
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.