Casting for 45 long colt

[slk]

Guys I have just purchased a SAA 45 long colt. I have always used Lyman molds for casting but they have gone sky high. Are there any other molds that you might recommend that are good?

Steve

[DougGuy]

What make and model? Colt? Ruger? Italian clone?

[slk]

Cimarron/Uberti SAA pre-war 5 1/2" barrel

[DougGuy]

My boolit of choice for the Uberti (avatar pic) is the 454190 seated over 9 grains of Herco, very accurate and clean shooting. Throats are .4565" :shock: so I size to .456" and it works very well never have to clean this one.

[Ozark mike]

Lee molds are good for the money i repeat for the money. With a little work the make good boolits used em for years got a whole bunch of em for diffrent calibers if ya dont like working molds over i highly suggest lookin at toms catalog he makes the best molds out there and they will cast to perfect size if using the correct alloy just one exception he cant do rn molds

[slk]

Lee molds are good for the money i repeat for the money. With a little work the make good boolits used em for years got a whole bunch of em for diffrent calibers if ya dont like working molds over i highly suggest lookin at toms catalog he makes the best molds out there and they will cast to perfect size if using the correct alloy just one exception he cant do rn molds

What do you have to do to Lee molds to make them better/good

Steve

[Ozark mike]

I lapped some of mine others were good enuf as is. I do believe there are several pages of lee mold work on this forum just type in lee molds in the search heres one

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?31455-Lee-brand-Molds&highlight=Lee+molds

[bedbugbilly]

U gave both lyman 452-190 and 454-190 - both shoot great out of my Uberti 7 1/2" 45 Colt Cattleman. NOE makes a duplicate of that boolit - I have a 4 cavity - ,454. If you are looking to get a budget mold - then the Lee mold that duplicates that boolit will work just fine. My molds are back in MI and I am in AZ. I am getting ready to order the lee in the 200 and 255 grain versions (round nose flat point) to use in a Uberti 1858 Remington NMA with a Howell conversion cylinder and I anticipate the will work just fine over BP and smokeless. Yea . . . seems like the prices of used lymans/ideals are going up - but while a $20 lee mold will cast just fine, I personally would rather spend more for a lyman/ideal mold (been casting in them for 55+ years) or a good NOE, Accurate, etc. but since I don't have them with me, I can still do a whole lot of shooting with the droppings of a lee mold. All depends on how much you want to lay out. Good luck - you'll enjoy the 45 SAA.

[John Boy]

Accurate mold clone of the Ideal 454190 bullet ... http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-250D-D.png

[Tripplebeards]

I bought a lee 255 grain mold for my new vaquero. I load them long (almost touching my forcing cones) with 5.2 grains of trail boss. I can hit shotgun shells with every trigger pull at 25 yards when I have the correct finger placement on my trigger. I have them sized at .451” so I push them through my forcing cones with my finger using very little effort. At 15 yards I can stack them on top of each other with this load. I did nothing to my mold...just poured and PCd. Never even sorted by weight since I knew I wasn’t planning on shooting long range with them.

https://i.imgur.com/mxBhbqj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kgiiOTi.jpg

[Ozark mike]

Check yore chambers and make sure they are not small then you should be able to do the same at 50

[Tripplebeards]

My barrel slugged at .4505” and my forcing cones are .451” so my boolit sizes down just enough for zero leading and excellent accuracy as fast as I can push it. Been down that road the day I picked up my pistol and talked back and forth with Doug. I got tired of asking questions and went to the range to let my fingers do the walking and found I out I bought a good one!

[Ozark mike]

Glad to hear

[slk]

I bought a lee 255 grain mold for my new vaquero. I load them long (almost touching my forcing cones) with 5.2 grains of trail boss. I can hit shotgun shells with every trigger pull at 25 yards when I have the correct finger placement on my trigger. I have them sized at .451” so I push them through my forcing cones with my finger using very little effort. At 15 yards I can stack them on top of each other with this load. I did nothing to my mold...just poured and PCd. Never even sorted by weight since I knew I wasn’t planning on shooting long range with them.

https://i.imgur.com/mxBhbqj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kgiiOTi.jpg

Are you using the Lee MOLD DC 452-255-RF

Steve

[big bore 99]

Having good results with the Lee 255gr in my Ruger.

[Castaway]

I’m a fan of the Lee 255 RNFP for both plinking and hunting. If you go with the Lee, suggest you get a six cavity version. I use it with black powder, it’s useable, but the two narrow lube grooves makes it not the best choice. I like my RCBS 270 Keith mould too. Carries enough lube for black powder, is more accurate than I am, but is a 2 cavity mould. As a starter mould, overall, I’d go with the Lee version. Half the cost of the RCBS or other steel moulds with three times more bullets. Let’s you determine if you want to keep casting before you invest a lot of money.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Steve,

I've been casting & loading these with good results.

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690234/double-cavity-mold-452-200-rf

AntiqueSledMan.

[CastingFool]

I, too, use the lee 452-200 rf, cast with 50%coww, 50% soww, 2% pewter, unsized, no problems, out of my Henry BBS

[Tripplebeards]

Are you using the Lee MOLD DC 452-255-RF

Steve

Yes I am. Works great! Picked my 2 cavity mold up on eBay brand new for $26 shipped. I did tons of research and everything I read said it was a great hunting, target, plinking, and great accuracy boolit. I casted mine up in 50/50 COWW and pure air cooled with 2% pewter added. I size mine through a lee push sizer. Mold number 90358. Looks like they run a little more now. Very easy to cast with it.

[LenH]

I am a fan of the Lyman 454-424, I have itin Lyman 2cavity and a NOE clone. I still have the Lyman but don't cast with it much as the NOE is a 4 cavity mold.
It has been my go to for nearly 45 years. I used to load it with 8 gr of Unique and it is a thumper. I don't load it so high any more but even at 7.2 of Unique
it can b a handful.

I guess the closest thing I have to a Lyman 454-190 is a NOE 454-265 WFN it has cup point pins and is also a accurate bullet.
One of my favorite is a NOE 452-230 RF that mold is closer to the to the Lyman 454-190 and is a good bullet also and has small HP pins,
I found it from a member here on the Swappin & selling. He had 2 that were close and sold one and it resides in my collection.

I have never had but one Lee mold and still use it some but never got any deeper in the Lee Catalogue.

[Larry Gibson]

I've a couple Uberti SAs [Evil Roy w/4 3/4" barrel and an Artillery w/5 1/2" barrel] and shot a lot of 454190s, 454490s and 45-255-KTs through them. Also have a Uberti 1873 lever action and a Contender barrel in 45 Colt. Over the last 10+ years I've become more partial to shooting lighter weight bullets. I used the Lee 452-200-RF but lately have been using the Lee 452-230-TC, both with excellent accuracy. I load them over Bullseye or 700X for 950 & 900 fps out of the SAs and 1150 & 1050 fps out of the Uberti carbine, very comfortable and accurate loads. I'm a traditional size and lube guy.

[slk]

So back in the day when the SAA first came out (like the days of the old west) what was the weight of the bullet? I am assuming it was 255gn..

Steve

[Drm50]

I’ve personally wore out 357 and 44 Lee Molds years ago. I don’t buy them anymore. I have Lyman Ideal molds that are over 100yrs old. Most likely several owners and thousands of bullets and casting good as new. RCBS, SAACO, H&G, ect . My suggestion is to look in classifieds and pick up good quality mold at good price. I’ve been in this game my whole life and found that top quality molds and tools are a better investment in the long run.

[Dusty Bannister]

So back in the day when the SAA first came out (like the days of the old west) what was the weight of the bullet? I am assuming it was 255gn..

Steve

One Google search source says:
What bullet does a Colt 45 fire?
The .45 Colt-or .45 (Long) Colt as it is irritatingly known-was originally loaded with 40 grains of FFg black powder, under a 255-grain lead bullet, at a muzzle velocity of just over 875 fps, as has been shown by testing original loads over a modern chronograph. This made for a very powerful combination, and for the stuff of legend.

[Larry Gibson]

One Google search source says:
What bullet does a Colt 45 fire?
The .45 Colt-or .45 (Long) Colt as it is irritatingly known-was originally loaded with 40 grains of FFg black powder, under a 255-grain lead bullet, at a muzzle velocity of just over 875 fps, as has been shown by testing original loads over a modern chronograph. This made for a very powerful combination, and for the stuff of legend.

However, for use in Army SAAs the arsenals loaded the 45 Gvmt cartridge with a 230 gr bullet over 28 or 29 gr of BP so the cartridge could be used in both the Schofield and the Colt SAAs. The original 45 Scofield cartridge has to large a rim so only 3 cartridges could be loaded in the SAAs. Because of the shorter 45 Gvmt cartridge the 45 Colt was erroneously given the moniker "45 Long Colt". There never was a "45 Short Colt" .

It was found the 45 Gvmt earned a reputation as being more "accurate"...more than likely because it was easier to shoot (much less recoil) and was better regulated to the fixed sights of the SAA.

[Ozark mike]

I thought the first colt cartridge was kinda like a collar button maybe im jus loosing it very possible

[c0wb0y84]

However, for use in Army SAAs the arsenals loaded the 45 Gvmt cartridge with a 230 gr bullet over 28 or 29 gr of BP so the cartridge could be used in both the Schofield and the Colt SAAs. The original 45 Scofield cartridge has to large a rim so only 3 cartridges could be loaded in the SAAs. Because of the shorter 45 Gvmt cartridge the 45 Colt was erroneously given the moniker "45 Long Colt". There never was a "45 Short Colt" .

I find it humorous when people get worked up about calling a 45 colt a “long colt”. (I’m not referring to Larry he just reminded me of some that I’ve talked to that get worked up about it)

It was not a name given in error but to differentiate between two cartridges and reduce confusion. There were two lengths of rounds that would fit in the 45 colt, the shorter round being the schofield that fit in both pistols and then the long one was the colt thus the long colt.

This was not the first, nor will it be the last time the military calls things by different names to suit their purposes. But it is not done in error.

[Larry Gibson]

"There were two lengths of rounds that would fit in the 45 colt, the shorter round being the schofield that fit in both pistols and then the long one was the colt thus the long colt."

I know that's been said and printed over and over until it has become the "truth" so to speak. The original 45 Schofield cases had rims that were too large to fit in the Colt SAAs. The original 45 Colt rims were .483 and the 45 Schofield rims were .514+. Thus sometimes only 3 Schofield cartridges could be put in the Colt SAA at a time and sometimes not if the arsenal case with folded rim was too big. Also on many Colt SAAs of the time the ratchet diameter at the rear of the cylinder was also too large to allow the 45 Schofield cartridges to seat fully. The Army was using both Scofield S&W revolvers and Colt SAA revolvers at the same time. Many units had both kinds of revolvers, especially cavalry units, so there was a supply problem. The arsenals (Frankford I believe) in 1873/74 began producing the 45 Gvmt cartridge. The manual of the day [Description and Rules of Management of the Springfield Rifle, Carbine and Army revolvers, 1874] describes the cartridge and load. It was an inside "centre" primed (Benet' primer) case the length of the Scofield case but with the folded rims smaller in diameter to fit 6 cartridges in the Colt SAA cylinder. It contained 28 gr of BP under a 230 gr bullet.

Also, Colt and perhaps Springfield Armory decreased the diameter of the ratchet on the rear of Colt cylinders and dished them out so the 45 Schofield cartridges could easily chamber. Commercial 45 Colt cases today have rime of .505 +/- and the commercial Starline 45 Schofield case rims run right around .514 +/-. Those Starline cases fit into both 45 Colt cylinders of my Uberti clones of the Colt SA. However, in order to pressure test the 45 Schofield loads in the recessed chamber of my Contender 45 Colt barrel I had to reduce the rim diameter of the 45 Schofield cases to .505.

I also find it humorous when the 45 Colt is referred to as the "Long Colt"......:drinks:

[c0wb0y84]

All the more reason to be more descriptive in differentiating them.

What’s even funnier is that it doesn’t really matter what people call them, everyone knows what your talking about either way.

Back to topic- I like the lee mold and for the price of a higher quality mold you can wear out 3-4 of the lees. I also have a Lyman 454424 that I recently got and is showing some promise.

I was given some Boolits cast by an mp mold that if I’d really like to have. It’s around 255 with a cup and 263ish flat nose. For now though I’ll have to make do with what I have. 8gr of win 231 under everything.

[slk]

Is there anything special you have to do with the Lee molds before poring lead? On the lyman ones I do have, I have always smoked them up pretty good. I have heard you can warp the Lee molds if not careful, but if you are just pouring lead into them I do not see how one could be damaged.

Steve

[Tripplebeards]

When I research 45 cal bullets for my new Vaquero it seemed that the original old west cowboy load was 255 grains. At the time every other review said it was more accurate than the lighter versions. I’d like to try Lee 200 grainers through it some day. I do smoke my Lee molds before I cast them. Never wrecked one yet. If I did they’re pretty cheap... Id just buy another one anyways. I tried Rockford arsenal mold release a couple of times. It works really good but it puts little dimples all over the boolits which don’t make them look nice so I stopped using the release spray. I’m pretty hard on my molds and haven’t warped one yet.

[Ozark mike]

I dont smoke mine i just dip a corner in the lead until the lead that stuck at first melts then i know its up to temp

[c0wb0y84]

Is there anything special you have to do with the Lee molds before poring lead? On the lyman ones I do have, I have always smoked them up pretty good. I have heard you can warp the Lee molds if not careful, but if you are just pouring lead into them I do not see how one could be damaged.

Steve

Open them and check for burrs. If present carefully remove the burrs with a knife or razor blade (carefully!). I then check the sprue plate and usually use some very fine sand paper to smooth up the surface that contacts the aluminum. Other than that I lube and use as any other mold with good results. Some people go to greater lengths but that’s all I do.

[Mk42gunner]

I have the Lyman 452424 that works well in both a Ruger Vaquero and my 1894CB Marlin, haven't tried it in the 1892 Rossi yet. I also have the aforementioned 454190, but it is a single cavity so I haven't really tried it out.

If I were starting now, I think I would look very hard at one of the ~250 RNFP molds, the Lee comes to mind as being the least expensive.

Robert

[Larry Gibson]

I dont smoke mine i just dip a corner in the lead until the lead that stuck at first melts then i know its up to temp

^^^^^^^
What I do after deburring and lubing the alignment pins and sprue plate. I've been using Lee moulds since '73/'74(?) and still have yet to ruin one. Figured out long ago that beating on the sprue plate does an aluminum mould no good so I use a heavy leather glove and twist the sprue plate open by hand. Of course that's not needed with the 6 cavities. Also have not warped any mould using the above method.

I do not smoke the cavities. it is not necessary.

[Ozark mike]

If the mold gets to hot it just takes longer for the sprue to solidify. If i get to that point i jus cool it a touch with the water i drop my boolits in then off i go no need to wack anything like larry said should be able to slide the sprue plate with little force to cut the sprue if the cutter is sharp

[Tripplebeards]

I casted up a huge pile of lee 300 grain FN .452’s in WQCOWW, sized to .452, PC’d, and GC’d. I casted them up for my 450BM and found out they won’t feed. I will eventually resize them to .451” and try them through my new vaquero. Don’t know what else to do with them and I’m guessing 300 grainers are probably not going to Stabilize very well out of my pistol at slower velocities.

[Ozark mike]

For a bh 452 should be fine how thick is your pc job

[Tripplebeards]

One coat tumbled.

[Ozark mike]

Got a diameter after powdercoating. Never powdercoated bullets just car and motorcycle parts i couldn't tell ya what the thickness was if ya was to beat me with it

[elmacgyver0]

I have never had to do anything to a Lee mold.
I do smoke the cavities though and lube the rub points with a little beeswax.
I find them easier to cast with than my Lyman molds.
I never have ruined one yet.

[farmbif]

I wouldn't trade my mp 454640 for anything

[Tripplebeards]

Got a diameter after powdercoating. Never powdercoated bullets just car and motorcycle parts i couldn't tell ya what the thickness was if ya was to beat me with it


I size after coating... .452 and I will resize to .451. It's not the size that's in question....its the question if a heavy 300 grain bullet will stabilize at lower velocities. Guess I'll have to try it so I can answer my own question.

[slk]

With the Lee MOLD DC 452-255-RF does anyone have any suggestions as to what top punch to use with the Lyman sizer system. I have a .452 sizing die that I think I will be ok using, but do not have a top punch to match the bullet from the lee mold.

Steve

[Onty]

45 Colt, 45 Long Colt, 45 Short Colt:

The Long & the Short of the .45 Colt, By: Jim Taylor

The debate over whether there is a .45 "Long" Colt cartridge is an on-going one that has been active for probably 75 years. Elmer Keith alluded to the arguments many years ago when he wrote "...Some newcomers to the game claim there is no such animal, but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned out in such profusion before, during and after World War I they would see there was some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long..." (Elmer Keith, Sixguns, page 285)

266291

These are not S&W or Schofield cartridges. The rim diameter is the same as the long .45 Colts, which is smaller than the Schofield rim diameter. These are true .45 Short Colts. The cartridge is listed in Cartridges of the World on page 306 as ".45 Colt - .45 Colt Government".

Whole article http://www.lasc.us/TaylorLongShort45Colt.htm

[joatmon]

With the Lee MOLD DC 452-255-RF does anyone have any suggestions as to what top punch to use with the Lyman sizer system. I have a .452 sizing die that I think I will be ok using, but do not have a top punch to match the bullet from the lee mold.

Steve

I just use a flat top punch in my Lyman, made it out of a bolt.

Aaron

[slk]

I just use a flat top punch in my Lyman, made it out of a bolt.

Aaron

So when you make it are you using the head of the bolt to push the bullet? Is the set screw good enough to keep the thread part of the bolt from moving or do you use a nut also so it can't move.

Steve

[Larry Gibson]

45 Colt, 45 Long Colt, 45 Short Colt:

The Long & the Short of the .45 Colt, By: Jim Taylor

The debate over whether there is a .45 "Long" Colt cartridge is an on-going one that has been active for probably 75 years. Elmer Keith alluded to the arguments many years ago when he wrote "...Some newcomers to the game claim there is no such animal, but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned out in such profusion before, during and after World War I they would see there was some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long..." (Elmer Keith, Sixguns, page 285)

266291

These are not S&W or Schofield cartridges. The rim diameter is the same as the long .45 Colts, which is smaller than the Schofield rim diameter. These are true .45 Short Colts. The cartridge is listed in Cartridges of the World on page 306 as ".45 Colt - .45 Colt Government".

Whole article http://www.lasc.us/TaylorLongShort45Colt.htm

There are several cartridges actually named "short' and "long"; the 32 Colts and the 41 Colts. S&W differentiated the 32 S&WL (Long) from the 32 S&W yet never called the 32 S&W a 32 S&WS ("Short"). The 45 Government is the same basic cartridge as the 45 S&W (Schofield) except it has the smaller rim diameter of the 45 Colt so it would fit in original 45 Colt SAAs. It never was named a 45 "Short Colt" but was called the 45 Government as it was developed and named by the arsenals (Frankford if I recall correctly?)to be used in both the 45 S&W Schofield revolver and the Colt SAA revolvers. It is described in the 1874 manual. Some cartridge manufacturers called it 45 Colt Government to differentiate it from the 45 S&W cartridge meaning it could be used in Colt SAAs.

Again, the name "45 Long Colt" is a misnomer as it is, correctly, the "45 Colt" cartridge. Never was a "true" 45 Short Colt as Mr. Taylor surmises to justify or rationalize the use of "45 Long Colt" Calling the 45 Colt a "Long Colt" is no more correct than calling the 357 Magnum a "Long 38 SPL". There are many colloquial names of things used which may be consider okay I guess. Calling bullets "boolets" or "heads" is acceptable on this and other forums. However, simply making up a name, even if it becomes common in usage, still does not make it correct.

BTW; I found no such reference on page 306 or any other page in my edition of "Cartridges Of The World". Could be Mr. Taylor is referencing a different edition?

[Gunslinger1911]

I haven't found a 45 boolet that dosn't work in the 45 Colt as long as it fits the cyl throat / bore.
I like the MiHec 45-225. Drops a 230g HP reminiscent of the Speer "flying ashtray" for my ACP carry load and a 250g solid that's a flat round nose that works great in SAA and 45 Colt levers.
Nothing wrong with a Lee mould - you MAY have to fiddle with it a bit (as in most Lee stuff - It's low cost for a reason - I call it "90 % engineered". Not knocking Lee - all but 2 of my 25+ dies are Lee, multiple powder measures, a turret press, etc. I don't mind "fiddleing" .
I use 231 or TrailBoss - can't remember the charge at the moment - but standard loads.
4 3/4" Uberti SAA, Uberti Henry, Win Trapper, S&W 25; all shoot well.
Prob my fav cartridge !

[fatelk]

I've become more accepting of the misnomer "Long Colt" in recent years. I was talking to a friend once a while back, and mentioned that I'd recently started loading .45 Colt ammo. He looked at me quizzically and asked, "45 auto or Long Colt?"


I have them sized at .451” so I push them through my forcing cones with my finger using very little effort.
I'm a little confused, forcing cone or cylinder throat? I don't think it's a good thing to be able to push a bullet through the forcing cone with finger pressure...

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Guys,

This quote is from the 13th Edition of C.O.W.

".45 Colt Government

Historical Notes:
This was something of a bastardized cartridge, combining the length
of the S&W Schofield revolver round with the rim of the Colt SAA
round. Army ordnance described at least one version of this
cartridge officially as Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45. The
Remington-UMC version was labeled (on the box and case heads)
as .45 Colt. The evident military incentive for such a loading seems
obvious: With both S&W and Colt .45-caliber revolvers (similar,
but differently chambered) in use, supplying the correct ammunition
to far-flung outposts must have been something of a logistical
nightmare. One has to wonder how often troopers found themselves
in possession of ammunition that would not work in the gun they had
been issued. The .45 Colt ammunition is longer than the Schofield
cylinder; chambering Schofield ammunition in the Colt leaves
precious little room for rim clearance. It seems likely that some
early .45 Colt SAAs would not have chambered some Schofield
ammunition, even when the gun was clean. Conversely, the .45 Colt
Government, combining the shorter case and smaller rim, worked
(after a fashion) in either gun. Ballistically, it differed little from the
standard .45 Colt ordnance loading, which was significantly lighter
than the original commercial loading. Available information
suggests that this cartridge was available between the late 1870s and
the 1930s.

General Comments:
When the chips are down, having any ammunition that will fit and
work in the gun at hand is much better than throwing rocks.
However, the Schofield does not function as dependably using the
smaller-rimmed .45 Colt Government cases; incautious manipulation
or a somewhat worn gun can result in the extractor slipping past the
rim of one or more partially extracted cases. The gun cannot, then,
be closed. Worse, if the cylinder is the slightest bit dirty
(blackpowder, remember), removing the offending case can require
a dowel, a hammer, and at least three hands!"

Sounds like something the government would have done, AntiqueSledMan.

[William Yanda]

I bought a lee 255 grain mold for my new vaquero. I load them long (almost touching my forcing cones) with 5.2 grains of trail boss. I can hit shotgun shells with every trigger pull at 25 yards when I have the correct finger placement on my trigger. I have them sized at .451” so I push them through my forcing cones with my finger using very little effort. At 15 yards I can stack them on top of each other with this load. I did nothing to my mold...just poured and PCd. Never even sorted by weight since I knew I wasn’t planning on shooting long range with them.

https://i.imgur.com/mxBhbqj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kgiiOTi.jpg

Are those sarcastic boolits? What powder did you use?

[cwlongshot]

It dosent matter IN THE LEAST. WE ALL know what we are speaking about when we hear 45 Colt OR 45 LONG COLT!!!

Either way YOU CALL IT its one of my favorites!!! I refer to it either /both ways at different times. IMHO neither is wrong as good arguments can be had on both sides.

Its NOTHING like calling a firearm magazine a "clip". Thats flat incorrect.

I load about a doz different bullets into my 45 Colts thru the years! Lately a Accurate FWC 250g mold is my "precious". But the 454424 will always get high marks from me.

Good luck and have FUN!!

CW

[Larry Gibson]

Hello Guys,

This quote is from the 13th Edition of C.O.W.

".45 Colt Government

Historical Notes:
This was something of a bastardized cartridge, combining the length
of the S&W Schofield revolver round with the rim of the Colt SAA
round. Army ordnance described at least one version of this
cartridge officially as Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45. The
Remington-UMC version was labeled (on the box and case heads)
as .45 Colt. The evident military incentive for such a loading seems
obvious: With both S&W and Colt .45-caliber revolvers (similar,
but differently chambered) in use, supplying the correct ammunition
to far-flung outposts must have been something of a logistical
nightmare. One has to wonder how often troopers found themselves
in possession of ammunition that would not work in the gun they had
been issued. The .45 Colt ammunition is longer than the Schofield
cylinder; chambering Schofield ammunition in the Colt leaves
precious little room for rim clearance. It seems likely that some
early .45 Colt SAAs would not have chambered some Schofield
ammunition, even when the gun was clean. Conversely, the .45 Colt
Government, combining the shorter case and smaller rim, worked
(after a fashion) in either gun. Ballistically, it differed little from the
standard .45 Colt ordnance loading, which was significantly lighter
than the original commercial loading. Available information
suggests that this cartridge was available between the late 1870s and
the 1930s.

General Comments:
When the chips are down, having any ammunition that will fit and
work in the gun at hand is much better than throwing rocks.
However, the Schofield does not function as dependably using the
smaller-rimmed .45 Colt Government cases; incautious manipulation
or a somewhat worn gun can result in the extractor slipping past the
rim of one or more partially extracted cases. The gun cannot, then,
be closed. Worse, if the cylinder is the slightest bit dirty
(blackpowder, remember), removing the offending case can require
a dowel, a hammer, and at least three hands!"

Sounds like something the government would have done, AntiqueSledMan.

The "solution" was to decrease the ratchet diameter on the Colt SAA cylinders so the larger rim of the 45 S&W Schofield cartridge would "fit" and thus 6 cartridges could be chambered. That led to the discontinuance of the 45 Gvmt cartridge. It also allowed a larger diameter thicker rim on drawn/turned rims instead of folded rims of the 45 Gvmt cartridge that was needed for positive extraction in the Colt new Service revolvers issued for the Philippine insurrection. The Colt New Service suffered the same extraction problems as the S&W Scofield revolvers did with the smaller diameter thinner rimmed original 45 Colt case.

Such were the some of the problems, both with government and civilian manufacture, encountered in the early years of cartridge case development.

[Tripplebeards]

Are those sarcastic boolits? What powder did you use?

Smoke's traffic purple...my dad wanted purple boolits for it at the time. In the post above I meant I load them to just before the throat tapers in my cylinder...not my forcing cone.

[fcvan]

Call me an odd-ball but I really like shooting round ball from my OM Vaquero and a 20" single shot carbine. Light load of Bullseye reaches 900 fps from the carbine, I don't recall the pistol velocity. Quiet, hard hitting, and soft round balls just mash flat on impact. I have loaded some rather warm loads just because and the OM Vaquero is on the SBH frame. I don't do a steady diet of warm loads because I'm just killing tin cans.

My dad has an old Colt from 1899 so it only gets BP rounds. I never bring my loads to the range when Dad is of a mind to shoot his colt even though my loads are generally BP pressure anyway. No need to run the risk.

I have a bunch of 45 caliber molds as I also shoot 45 ACP, all Lee molds including one single cavity 200 gr RNHP mold made in the mid 1970s. Their HP molds have long been discontinued and I have 2. The HP mold gets powder coated but it used to get plain based gas checks for the warm carbine loads. Now, I just as soon shoot the light loaded round balls because the are just fun!

[Walks]

I must have been at least in H.S. Before I heard the term "Long Colt". My Dad had a S&W #3 Schofield revolver, We referred to the cut down .45Colt cases we made for that revolver as .45Schofield cases, had to turn the revolver upside down to open it. So the small rims didn't slide under the extractor.

.45Colt was just ".45Colt"

I bought a Uberti #3 in .45Colt a couple of years after they came out. Bought 500 new starline .45 schofield cases.
loaded them with a variety of 225-230gr bullets. Seem to have settled on the Lee #452-230-TC over 4.8grs of TiteGroup. Shoots to POI at 50ft in my New Vaquero. And the Lyman #452374 RN & Saeco #453 WC.
That Lee #452-255-RF is a good bullet for .45Colt, especially in a rifle.
But so is the Lyman #454190
And the Lyman #454424, #452454 & #452423 are great for punching clean holes in paper.
RCBS # 45-270-SAA over Max Charge of Unique, just the thing to ride on your hip when walking off the pavement.

[ole_270]

I use the Lee 255rf over 8 gr Universal. I've pretty much quit buying the double cavity Lees, 6 cavity Lee molds have so far worked much better.

[slk]

One other question. Is straight wheel weights ok for 45 colt, or do they need to be harder?

Steve

[c0wb0y84]

Stick on or clip on? Are you lubing or powder coating? Although really the answer is that your gun will have to tell you that.

I've used straight clip on and it worked in one gun and leaded another. I powder coat now.

[Ozark mike]

One other question. Is straight wheel weights ok for 45 colt, or do they need to be harder?

Steve

45 doesnt require a hard bullet. If ya want it harder drop em in water

[wksimple]

to the OP: is this of interest? http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?407129-WTS-45-Long-Colt-rcbs-carbide-die-set-Lyman-454190-mould

[greenjoytj]

To slk question in post #44.

Modify a .450” top punch or slightly smaller punch example .44” bullet that fits your sizer properly.
I spun a top punch in my drill press, and gently pressed the spinning punch onto 220 thru to 1000 grit aluminum oxide sand paper to sand off a collar than made the punch suitable for only a particular SAECO bullet.

The sand paper was place on a sheet of glass to insure a smooth flat surface.
A perfectly flat punch seats my LEE 452-255-RF cast bullets and any other flat nose bullet including the bullet the punch was made for.

You don’t need a top punch that has been factory shaped to your bullets nose shape if your bullet has a flat nose.

[farmbif]

all I use is straight clip on wheel weights with a little bit of tin added lube sized to 454 with carnauba red

[fredj338]

If you just want plinking bullets for std 45colt loads, the Lee 200gr RNFP is a really good shooter. If it must be 255gr, then the Lee RNFP works there too. My fav 45colt mold is the RCBS270SAA. I shoot them only in my Ruger BH though. The cowbow guns get the 200gr Lee, which comes in about 208gr cast from range scrap, which is plenty hard for std colt vel/pressures.
I size everything 0.452". I used to shoot Carnuba Red but have moved to coated for all my lead stuff.

[slk]

I got the Lee mold in today and have cast some bullets. The bullets are coming out pretty good and full, but they might be really pretty on one side (mirror finish) and a little duller look on the other. I am not so worried about pretty, but just wondering what could be done to get the entire head shinny?

Steve

[Ozark mike]

Polish and elbow grease :bigsmyl2:
Probably just need to cast a few lbs of lead and it should get better

[murf205]

Hello Steve,

I've been casting & loading these with good results.

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690234/double-cavity-mold-452-200-rf

AntiqueSledMan.

SledMan, does your boolits drop out of the mold with as sharp looking driving bands and lube grooves that the Lee pic in the link shows? Is the crimp groove that pronounced as well. I have a 25-5 Smith & Wesson with a 4" barrel that refuses to shoot a comfortable 255 gr load down to the top of the sights @ 25yds and I believe that a 200gr boolit will drop it down where I want it. I have the shorter rear sight blade in it now. I think that speeding a load up 75-90 fps will get me where I want to be.

[USSR]

I have a 25-5 Smith & Wesson with a 4" barrel that refuses to shoot a comfortable 255 gr load down to the top of the sights @ 25yds and I believe that a 200gr boolit will drop it down where I want it.

Yeah, the curse of the Smith 25-5; too short of a front sight.:(

Don

[murf205]

How well I know. If I could drive boolits at warp speed to get them on the sights, it would defeat the purpose of a mild shooting big bore 4" gun. I wonder if the mothership can put a taller red ramp sight on it without it looking like it was bubba'd. I think I'll call and ask them. My gun is a 98%+ gun and I looked high(er) and low(er) for a 4".

[prs]

I've a couple Uberti SAs [Evil Roy w/4 3/4" barrel and an Artillery w/5 1/2" barrel] and shot a lot of 454190s, 454490s and 45-255-KTs through them. Also have a Uberti 1873 lever action and a Contender barrel in 45 Colt. Over the last 10+ years I've become more partial to shooting lighter weight bullets. I used the Lee 452-200-RF but lately have been using the Lee 452-230-TC, both with excellent accuracy. I load them over Bullseye or 700X for 950 & 900 fps out of the SAs and 1150 & 1050 fps out of the Uberti carbine, very comfortable and accurate loads. I'm a traditional size and lube guy.

Larry, when loading the Lee 452-230-TC for your carbine, which type of crimp die are you using? I have a few pounds of those all sized and ready to load for my Marlin CB Limited and since that boolit has no crimp groove I have been wondering which is the most secure crimp. I was thinking of trying the collet crimp die.

prs

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello murf205,

Here is a quick shot of my Lee 452-200-RF.
The 5 are Soft Lead, the 3 are Wheel Weights,
the 4 are the Lee 452-255-RF in Wheel Weights.

AntiqueSledMan.

[murf205]

Thank you for the pics. Those 200's might just be what I need to solve my problem.

[slk]

I have a small issue with my brass that I did not notice until last night. I had some old brass that was Hornady and my new Starline. The Hornady is shorter by a 1/16". So now I will have to be careful with those not to seat the bullet the same as the Starline. I would miss the crimp grove. I will load the Starline first and crimp and do those Hornadys last and adjust the dies accordingly. BTW the Federal barss is the same length as the Starline.

I did get the Lee 452-255 to produce some nice bullets. Very happy with the mold.

Steve

[USSR]

The Hornady is shorter by a 1/16". So now I will have to be careful with those not to seat the bullet the same as the Starline.

Hornady shortens their brass when loading the FTX bullets in them. I avoid them like the plague.

Don

[cwlongshot]

Hornady shortens their brass when loading the FTX bullets in them. I avoid them like the plague.

Don

I dont avoid them... I do lod SOME FTX, So I just save for that

BUT something to know and should make ALL HORNADY head stamp a suspect!!

CW

[slk]

So if I am aware of the situation like now will I be ok loading the 255gr bullet. After I shoot them I may just set them aside. I already have them primed

Oh and with the crimp do I want the brass in the center of the crimp groove or towards the top of the groove.

Steve

[USSR]

Steve,

Location of the crimp in the crimp groove isn't the problem, the problem is since the brass is short, the case neck doesn't reach up into the crimp part of the die like a normal case does. Hard to get a good crimp with them.

Don

[slk]

i should be able to adjust the die shouldn't I? They are adjustable. Or am I missing something? I have no problem throwing the hornadys brass away if it is not workable.

Lets get on the Starline brass. Where do I need the brass to be on the crimp grove. This is the first time I am crimping in a crimp groove. Am I trying to get the leading mouth of the casing to fold into that groove? There seams to be a fine line here on where the casing needs to be. Below is a pic of the starline brass with a 452-255 bullet seated(not crimped yet). Do I need to seat it some more? You can see where it was crimped before with the factory 250gr HSM cowboy bullets that I am reloading. I am using 255 gr ones now. Help.............

https://i.imgur.com/wkXnlZf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/I5vELX1.jpg

[Static line]

Well,you might be ok to crimp there if your COL meets the specks that it should be to function in your firearm. Me,myself,I like to seat the bullet to where I am in as much of the crimp groove as possible and then crimp. In the groove but just a hair short of hitting the shoulder of the bullet.I am shooting a 255 gr. WFN cast bullet too and if I have a picture,I'll se if I can attach one here in the next post.

[Static line]

267044
Not my 255 gr. WFN but a 255 grain Keith SWC in this picture but you might see where I crimp to.

[USSR]

i should be able to adjust the die shouldn't I? They are adjustable. Or am I missing something?

When you've got the case all the way up into the die, how do you adjust the die to get the case farther up into the die? Try it and see. If you feel you are getting enough crimp then load em.

Don

[waco]

267044
Not my 255 gr. WFN but a 255 grain Keith SWC in this picture but you might see where I crimp to.

Looks like the RCBS 45-270-SAA
One of my favorites.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello slk,

Here is my son's nickel JAG with a 452-200 gr Hunters Supply bullet from Midway,
along side my Star-line and my Lee 452-200-RF on the right.
I don't think I changed a thing when I switched from his to mine.

USSR,
To move the case further into the die you would run the die down, but then you also need to raise the seating plug.

AntiqueSledMan.

[USSR]

USSR,
To move the case further into the die you would run the die down, but then you also need to raise the seating plug.


When the case is fully up in the die, the case holder is touching the bottom of the die. You can't run the die down any further.

Don

[slk]

To be perfectly honest I have been reloading for many many years, and this is the first cartridge that has perplexed me. I am using Hornady 3 dies set. The seating die is something I have never encountered before. It has a sleeve that drops down over the bullet, and slides back up into the die as you are seating the bullet. You can feel the bullet seating, and then it stops abruptly as if you are in fact hitting the case. At that point I have been stopping. If I want to seat the bullet further I can screw in the center portion of the die.

I am getting older but this should not be this difficult to figure out. I have not tried the crimping process yet, but it is included in the same die.

Steve

[onelight]

The picture waco posted is a beauty , but if your cases are not all exactly the same length it will be simpler to not seat the bullet quite so deep so you have a little more margin for error if you have a case a little longer .
A simple way to adjust the die to crimp and seat at the same time is to back the die out so you know it will not crimp at all , set the seating stem deep work the bullet down into the case until you get the bullet to OAL you like back out the seating stem and start working the die down a little at a time until you get the crimp you want lock down the die and screw the seating stem down until you feel it hit the bullet and lock the seating stem . Check you next one to make to see if you need to fine tune.

[slk]

So if I am understanding everyone I am really close to the seating depth now. I do not want the brass to be past the crimp...Right? I want it fold into the crimp.

Steve

[onelight]

So if I am understanding everyone I am really close to the seating depth now. I do not want the brass to be past the crimp...Right? I want it fold into the crimp.

Steve
That is right .

[prs]

Larry, when loading the Lee 452-230-TC for your carbine, which type of crimp die are you using? I have a few pounds of those all sized and ready to load for my Marlin CB Limited and since that boolit has no crimp groove I have been wondering which is the most secure crimp. I was thinking of trying the collet crimp die.

prs

Duh? Straight wall case, no collet die available. I selected a roll crimp for a couple of tube magazines full and will see how it goes before loading the batch.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello USSR,

Then I'd say your case is short.
There should be a step to form the crimp.

AntiqueSledMan.

[cwlongshot]

I agree whats the case length?

Also could simply be a faulty die. There may not be a "crimp" machined properly inside. Hornady I assume?

CW

[Static line]

Humm, faulty crimp step in the seating/crimp die? Could very well be. Looking back at the pictures that slk posted I see evidence of a bright ring just below the case mouth as if the crimp made contact but down that far I would think the crimp would have been well established in the groove by then. I have Hornady dies for my 45 Colt also and you surely can feel the crimp taking place. Even if the cases were a little short as is with the Hornady cases, I would think a proper crimp could be achieved by simple adjustment.

[slk]

Humm, faulty crimp step in the seating/crimp die? Could very well be. Looking back at the pictures that slk posted I see evidence of a bright ring just below the case mouth as if the crimp made contact but down that far I would think the crimp would have been well established in the groove by then. I have Hornady dies for my 45 Colt also and you surely can feel the crimp taking place. Even if the cases were a little short as is with the Hornady cases, I would think a proper crimp could be achieved by simple adjustment.

That bright ring was already there from the factory loads. I have yet to attempt the crimping process. I will be doing that today, and report back with my results.

[Static line]

Good deal. We will check back to see what your results are.

[USSR]

Hello USSR,

Then I'd say your case is short.
There should be a step to form the crimp.

AntiqueSledMan.

Read the previous posts by slk. That's what we are talking about; Hornady brass that is about 1/16" short that they use to load their special bullets.

Don

[slk]

Ok does this look about right?

https://i.imgur.com/JqNNHmS.jpg

[USSR]

If that's with your short Hornady brass, then I'd say you have enough crimp there and it looks good.

Don

[slk]

That is with the starline brass. I have not done anything with the hornady brass yet.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello USSR,

I see your a "NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor",
sounds like your giving some goofy advise to me.
When I set up for the bullet seating & crimping,
my first step is to set the seat position, bullet in case.
Then I raise the seating plug up and set the crimp by lowering the die.
It's at this point I reset the seating plug, while bullet is crimped.
One might have to make a slight adjustment at that point.
The only time the shell holder should come in contact with the die is on full length sizing.
Everything else is set to top of stroke.

That's how I do it, AntiqueSledMan.

[Static line]

Hello USSR,

I see your a "NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor",
sounds like your giving some goofy advise to me.
When I set up for the bullet seating & crimping,
my first step is to set the seat position, bullet in case.
Then I raise the seating plug up and set the crimp by lowering the die.
It's at this point I reset the seating plug, while bullet is crimped.
One might have to make a slight adjustment at that point.
The only time the shell holder should come in contact with the die is on full length sizing.
Everything else is set to top of stroke.

That's how I do it, AntiqueSledMan.

Me too. That's also how I do it. It is by the book.

[Static line]

Ok does this look about right?

https://i.imgur.com/JqNNHmS.jpg

I'd say that is just about perfect. Good job.

[slk]

Hello USSR,

I see your a "NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor",
sounds like your giving some goofy advise to me.
When I set up for the bullet seating & crimping,
my first step is to set the seat position, bullet in case.
Then I raise the seating plug up and set the crimp by lowering the die.
It's at this point I reset the seating plug, while bullet is crimped.
One might have to make a slight adjustment at that point.
The only time the shell holder should come in contact with the die is on full length sizing.
Everything else is set to top of stroke.

That's how I do it, AntiqueSledMan.

That is exactly how I did it and it is how the instructions said to. The bullets seam to have crimped, and they look similar to the factory loads
AntiqueSledMan you were right on. Now I have to address those hornady brass. Chunk them or change the set-up I have for the starline brass. I had the hornady primed but I can take those out easy enough.

Steve

[USSR]

Hello USSR,

I see your a "NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor",
sounds like your giving some goofy advise to me.
When I set up for the bullet seating & crimping,
my first step is to set the seat position, bullet in case.
Then I raise the seating plug up and set the crimp by lowering the die.


AntiqueSledMan,

You obviously have comprehension problems. I set up my seating die in the exact way you do, BUT YOU ARE COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT THAT IF A CASE IS TOO SHORT, IT CANNOT REACH FAR ENOUGH UP INTO THE CRIMP PORTION OF THE SEATING DIE. Take one of your cases, cut about 1/4" or so off at the case mouth. Then try applying a crimp to it. It will be too short to reach the crimp portion of the seating die. That is what this whole conversation has been about, not the setting up of the seating die per se, but the inability of a too short case to receive a good crimp.

Don

[AntiqueSledMan]

USSR,

That is exactly what I told YOU!

Not only that, nobody said that their case was to short to be crimped but you.

AntiqueSledMan.

[onelight]

Ok does this look about right?

https://i.imgur.com/JqNNHmS.jpg
That looks right .
If you decide to load your short cases you will be able to work the die down to get the same relationship of the case mouth to the bullet and crimp , so you will have a shorter OAL , that may require a powder charge adjustment depending on the the type of load.

[USSR]

Quote Originally Posted by slk View Post
The Hornady is shorter by a 1/16".


Hornady shortens their brass when loading the FTX bullets in them.

Fact: A case that is too short may not give enough of a desired crimp. This ain't rocket science.

Don

[onelight]

What USSR I saying is correct about crimping a short case , you will just have to try one and see if you can crimp the Hornady cases in your die . If they won't and you want to use them you will need another die to crimp those cases.

[USSR]

Exactly. And here is what I do with the .45 Cowboy Special case, which is a .45 Colt case the length of a .45 ACP case, and the .45 AR case. I use a .45 ACP seater die with a roll crimp in it instead of the normal taper crimp.

Don

[slk]

The 20 rounds of hornady that I have (picked up at the range) are only about 1/16" shorter than the starline brass. I may load them and let them lay on the ground for the next guy after firing them.

My load is 7 gr of Unique with the Lee 452-255 bullet. First time trying this load. Will have to see if I like it. Target shooting it should be ok....

Steve

[Static line]

The 20 rounds of hornady that I have (picked up at the range) are only about 1/16" shorter than the starline brass. I may load them and let them lay on the ground for the next guy after firing them.

My load is 7 gr of Unique with the Lee 452-255 bullet. First time trying this load. Will have to see if I like it. Target shooting it should be ok....

Steve

Hornady cases only a 1/16th shorter then the Starline brass, I would think that the crimp die could be adjusted down enough to crimp the brass. I am not sure about this, because I don't have Hornady brass to find out. USSR might have already experienced any problems associated with doing that. A 1/16th isn't very much of a difference.

[USSR]

You may get enough of a crimp with them, or you may not. Only way to tell is to try.

Don

[slk]

Ok the hornadys are done and it was a piece of cake. I just had to seat the bullet a tad bit further in the case, and I was good to go. The shorter bullet is the hornady. Shooting them out of a SAA pistol

https://i.imgur.com/Wqg8HeN.jpg

[USSR]

Actually, you don't have to seat them further in the case. Just raise your seating stem up a little.

Don

[Static line]

Actually, you don't have to seat them further in the case. Just raise your seating stem up a little.

Don

I think he meant that he had to seat the bullet deeper for the Hornady cases in order to get a good crimp in the crimp groove.

[slk]

Whatever I did worked this time. I use an old Bonanza/Forster co-axel press which operates a little different than most. Basically same principals but when people describe some things it is not always the same. I have had it since I was a teenager and I am now 70. It has been good to me all these years. I had never used Hornady dies before, and they perplexed me a little. Now I have the feel of the crimping action. All is good.

Thank all of you for all of the great info. This old brain was able to process it all, and make it work.

Now if I could just find some 45 colt brass to load I could get on with this. All I have is the factory box of ammo and the 20 rounds of hornady brass. Need to find more and everyone seams to be back ordered.

Steve

[slk]

i think he meant that he had to seat the bullet deeper for the hornady cases in order to get a good crimp in the crimp groove.

yes !!!

[Static line]

Whatever I did worked this time. I use an old Bonanza/Forster co-axel press which operates a little different than most. Basically same principals but when people describe some things it is not always the same. I have had it since I was a teenager and I am now 70. It has been good to me all these years. I had never used Hornady dies before, and they perplexed me a little. Now I have the feel of the crimping action. All is good.

Thank all of you for all of the great info. This old brain was able to process it all, and make it work.

Now if I could just find some 45 colt brass to load I could get on with this. All I have is the factory box of ammo and the 20 rounds of hornady brass. Need to find more and everyone seams to be back ordered.

Steve

It's available at Starline,though I think the minimum to buy is 500.

[onelight]

Glad you got it going slk , you have a great press I have always liked a lot of things about those but I am just to cheap to buy one :-P

[slk]

Yes I called Starline and tried to get them to sell me 100 and they said the min was 500. Oh well some will turn up one day soon. There must be a run on 45 colt these days. Did not think cowboy shooting was that popular.

Steve

[USSR]

Graf & Sons sells Starline brass by the 100, but they're out of stock at this time.

Don