Brass and cast.

[kmw1954]

Simple reality.

Been loading 2 different 45acp cast bullets for a while now and have been using exclusively R*P brass on these loading. Well after all this time I finally used up all the hundreds of cleaned R*P brass I had. I just had to try a different brass once again and GGggrrrr. No Go! Stuff may work in the Springfield but it will just not work in my Tanfoglio Witness.

So I guess I will be spending the day washing, sorting, drying and tumbling 45acp brass.

[gwpercle]

45 acp brass doesn't have to be that clean to reload . Wipe off any outside dirt when inspecting for damage then reload the once fired cases . I do it a lot ...no harm .

You don't have to wash and wax your car every time you drive it .

Gary

[reddog81]

45 acp brass doesn't have to be that clean to reload . Wipe off any outside dirt when inspecting for damage then reload the once fired cases . I do it a lot ...no harm .

You don't have to wash and wax your car every time you drive it .

Gary

This x2.

If you need to clean off dirt you can rinse in warm water, agitate, shake out any water, and then let them sit in the sun for a little while to dry. A hair dryer will reduce drying time to minutes. Cleaning 100 cases can take under 10 minutes and cost nothing unless you need to go buy a hair dryer or heat gun.

[kmw1954]

The issue is not dirty cases.

The issue is that the R*P case has the thinnest walls. Winchester nor Federal will chamber or pluck test in my Witness.

Just today I did try a few Winchester cases and not one would plunk in the Witness barrel. W/O touching a thing on the press and just changing back to R*P brass I loaded three and all three dropped right in and right out!

I right now have 3/4 of a 5gal. bucket of 45acp brass that has been just sitting and collecting more. So it's time to wash some just to recover the R*P brass that is in there.

[Tatume]

They should all chamber easily after being resized. However, it doesn't hurt anything to sort them.

[kmw1954]

They should all chamber easily after being resized. However, it doesn't hurt anything to sort them.

They do chamber just fine while empty. Seat a .452" diameter cast bullet and they will not seat while the R*P Cases have no issues with the .452" boolit.

[gwpercle]

So I guess you will be spending the day washing , sorting , drying and tumbling 45 acp brass ...
Nice day for doing it .
Gary

[kmw1954]

So I guess you will be spending the day washing , sorting , drying and tumbling 45 acp brass ...
Nice day for doing it .
Gary

It is actually. Nice and cool in the reloading room. was going to start reloading more of the 200gr RNFP I just cast and then found I only have 30 prepped R*P cases left. Yet I have about 1k Winchester and 1k Fed all clean sorted and ready to load.

I haven't given much thought to sizing down to .451" because the .452 shoots so well and not a bit of leading. Just finished shooting 200 of these thru this gun and the barrel looks like it wasn't even shot after just running a wet double patch thru it. Also that patch came out almost still white.

[Burnt Fingers]

I'd get that gun throated.

I don't sort pistol brass. I shoot 45 ACP in over a dozen different guns. My reloads work in everyone of them and I don't have to use the crutch of a Lee Carbide FCD to make them work.

[kmw1954]

I'd get that gun throated..

You may but I won't. Been through that discussion way too many times. But thanks for the suggestion.

Where did the Lee FCD comment come from?

I have my own reason for sorting brass and have expend it before so there is no reason to do it again. It has nothing to do with accuracy.

[tazman]

Where did the Lee FCD comment come from?



Burnt Fingers has a special dislike for the Lee FCD and likes to throw that comment out whenever. Just ignore it.

That Witness must have an extremely tight chamber. The only solutions I know of to the issue you are having is to use a slightly smaller diameter boolit in that pistol(.451 maybe) or to throat the barrel which I understand you do not want to do. That is fine but it does limit your options somewhat.

You might want to try sizing to .451 and see if you get any leading in your pistols. Many guns will work just fine at .451.
Depending on your alloy, the boolit will bump up that thousandth and seal the bore.

I have a Springfield XDm that also has a tight chamber, but not as tight as yours appears to be. Mine accepts mixed brass with .452 sized boolits with no issues. It won't take anything larger though with some of the cases with thicker walls.

[Winger Ed.]

They do chamber just fine while empty. Seat a .452" diameter cast bullet and they will not seat while the R*P Cases have no issues with the .452" boolit.

Might be a issue with the crimp if a empty case drops in OK, but not when its loaded.
I've never had a problem like yours, but I do put a firm taper crimp on .45ACP.

[kmw1954]

Tazman I do believe you were also involved in the original conversation with this gun when I first started loading for it. Through much trial and error I have found what will work in this gun W/O having to send it out for a perceived "Repair". I would rather leave this gun all original and work around it like so many do with new guns that they find do not like certain bullet profiles. Many shoot what works and give up on what doesn't. Other send them out and that is a fine solution. For this gun it's just one I refuse to use. That said I am also not asking anyone to have to deal with this gun.

So everyone knows this gun is 28 years old and I am not going to alter it.

[kmw1954]

Might be a issue with the crimp if a empty case drops in OK, but not when its loaded.
I've never had a problem like yours, but I do put a firm taper crimp on .45ACP.

Ed there is no issue with the crimp.

[elmacgyver0]

I'd get that gun throated.

I don't sort pistol brass. I shoot 45 ACP in over a dozen different guns. My reloads work in everyone of them and I don't have to use the crutch of a Lee Carbide FCD to make them work.

I guess I don't understand what "throating" is.
If the shells won't chamber I would think it is because of an excessively tight chamber.
On the other hand if they chamber but won't go all the way in and get stuck in the lands it would be an issue bullet seating or it would happen with all brands of brass.

Perhaps I am just showing my ignorance here, if so please enlighten me.

[tazman]

I guess I don't understand what "throating" is.
If the shells won't chamber I would think it is because of an excessively tight chamber.
On the other hand if they chamber but won't go all the way in and get stuck in the lands it would be an issue bullet seating or it would happen with all brands of brass.

Perhaps I am just showing my ignorance here, if so please enlighten me.

Throating usually does two things. It extends and, perhaps, enlarges the throat so it will accept a particular sized boolit often changing the angle of the rifling that is presented to the front of the boolit for easier entry into the barrel. In this case .452. The other thing it can do is to slightly enlarge the chamber so the larger casing(larger diameter boolit=larger diameter finished cartridge) can freely enter the chamber and reach battery.
Often, military firearms have slightly "sloppy" chamber dimensions so a problem(dirty/dented) cartridge will still function and not disable a firearm. My Beretta M9 barrels are like this. They will feed cartridges that are several thousandths oversize without issue.

kmw1954---I understand you don't want to mess with the gun's mechanics. I have a couple I won't touch like that as well.
I want you to at least consider a slightly smaller diameter boolit, preferably with an alloy in the 8-14 BHN range and see if that will work in the off brand casings. That MAY fix the issue without ever needing to "adjust" the weapon.
I am assuming the Witness will chamber standard FMJ hardball loaded in those off brand casings?

[kmw1954]

Tazman you are absolutely correct. This gun will run all fresh factory loaded ammunition with jacketed bullets. It's when they get just the slightest bit oversized or out of round that I have trouble. So once again my solution to the problem was to stay with Remington Peters brass as I don't need to do anything fancy to load with it.
The lead I am using is an alloy of mostly range scrap which as tested pretty soft when made into ingots around the 8-9 BHN and then I am adding some print type into it that is bringing it up to 10-11 range. I added the type because I was getting poor fill-out w/o it.

So with these two cast bullet loads and this R*P brass after working with it I have gotten it to 100% function and very accurate so once again I think I'll just clean the brass and sort out the stuff I need.

Amazed at how this turned into a major discussion on everything but the wall thickness of the brass and just what a simple influence like that can have!

[country gent]

My bet would be the 452 bullet is expanding the neck just enough bigger to cause this issue. measure some loaded rounds and see what the difference is. If everything is loaded the same same bullet same crimp same oal I doubt throating will help. It might take a light polishing of the chamber itself to gain the clearance for the thicker cases.

with the tight chamber it also probably a very good shooter.

One route would be to by a decimal reamer and ream the thick cases slightly deeper than the bullet seats in. Measure the RP cases in you sizer die and buy a reamer that dia. ream the cases in the die with this reamer. ( Lee dies are good here with the large dia stem).

[KYCaster]

Simple reality.

Been loading 2 different 45acp cast bullets for a while now and have been using exclusively R*P brass on these loading. Well after all this time I finally used up all the hundreds of cleaned R*P brass I had. I just had to try a different brass once again and GGggrrrr. No Go! Stuff may work in the Springfield but it will just not work in my Tanfoglio Witness.

So I guess I will be spending the day washing, sorting, drying and tumbling 45acp brass.

So what is it that prevents the Win brass from chambering in the Tanfoglio? How are you going to cure the problem if you can't identify the problem?


The issue is not dirty cases.

The issue is that the R*P case has the thinnest walls. Winchester nor Federal will chamber or pluck test in my Witness.

Just today I did try a few Winchester cases and not one would plunk in the Witness barrel. W/O touching a thing on the press and just changing back to R*P brass I loaded three and all three dropped right in and right out!

I right now have 3/4 of a 5gal. bucket of 45acp brass that has been just sitting and collecting more. So it's time to wash some just to recover the R*P brass that is in there.

Regardless of the wall thickness of the case, if your dies are properly adjusted the outside dimensions of the loaded round should be the same. So, again, what, exactly is causing the problem? What part of the loaded round is preventing it from chambering?


They do chamber just fine while empty. Seat a .452" diameter cast bullet and they will not seat while the R*P Cases have no issues with the .452" boolit.

Again, what, exactly is it that prevents the round from chambering? I ***-U-ME the empty case has been sized but not expanded to accept the bullet, so something in the expand/seat/crimp operations is the culprit? If it really is an issue with brass thickness (which I really doubt) then a bulge at the base of the seated bullet should be evident and easily verifiable with some Prussion Blue or something similar (sharpie) on the loaded round.
Curious to see how you resolve this issue.

Good luck
Jerry

[kmw1954]

Regardless of the wall thickness of the case, if your dies are properly adjusted the outside dimensions of the loaded round should be the same. So, again, what, exactly is causing the problem? What part of the loaded round is preventing it from chambering?



[COLOR="#0000FF"]Curious to see how you resolve this issue.

Good luck
Jerry

Yes regardless of the wall thickness the cases should be the same size and are until the bullet is seated! The oversize bullet is not swaging down when seated and is ever so slightly expanding the case around the bullet.

I do not have a micrometer and only use a Mitutoyo Dial caliber. the size difference is so small I cannot read it but it is there.

The solution was easy just use the right brass and not fight it or over think it.

[hickfu]

Are the bullets the Lee 200gr RNFP? I can get them to fit my 1911 but nothing else, no matter what case I use..
I switched to the Lee 230gr TC design and everything passes the plunk test and fires flawlessly.

[samari46]

I like to keep my pistol and revolver brass in lots. Mt one lot of 45acp shot in two 45'a numbers about 1200 cases. For years in shooting steel plate matches it was common to shoot 300 rounds on saturday then approximately another 300 for the match. Recently was looking at that perticular lot and in most cases you cannot even read the headstamp. Thats how many times that lot of ammo has been fired. Sure does not owe me any money. next time around will just dump them in the scrap bucket and start lot #2. Funny thing is in all the years I've been shooting that lot,I have never had a case neck split. Frank

[Walks]

This is why I keep all headstamps separate. They all go into 50 or 100rd boxes, shoot 'em and back into the box they came out of.
Way I was taught 60yrs ago. If I lose one, well then I have 49 or 99rds in that box. Helps to keep track of how many times a case has been reloaded.

For Auto-loaders, no more crimp then is necessary. Plunk test in OLD Colt Pre-War GOLD CUP bbl. Hasn't failed yet.

Can't really help. Load 3 bullets, have 3 seat dies. Don't think they have been adjusted in this century.

[mdi]

Bottom line I read you are having problems stemming from fat bullets and a tight chambered gun. I have 3, 45 ACP guns an none have "tight" chambers (bordering on SAAMI minimum specs). If there is just a few thousandths difference in finished cartridge OD, it's not a problem.

You have identified cases that have a slightly thicker wall, bullets on the large side, and a tight chamber. In the machining world this is called "tolerance stacking", a little too much here, plus a little too much there, equals a unusable part. You know what is wrong so the chosen remedy is up to you. You could even hide the problem with a post crimping sizing die (an FCD *barf*). Or you could separate the R-P brass to be used only in your Witness...

[kmw1954]

Bottom line I read you are having problems stemming from fat bullets and a tight chambered gun.

You have identified cases that have a slightly thicker wall, bullets on the large side, and a tight chamber. In the machining world this is called "tolerance stacking", a little too much here, plus a little too much there, equals a unusable part. You know what is wrong so the chosen remedy is up to you. You could even hide the problem with a post crimping sizing die (an FCD *barf*). Or you could separate the R-P brass to be used only in your Witness...

Yes, tight chamber, very tight. Slightly oversize or even just a smite out-of-round and they will not chamber. All empty sized cases will pass the plunk test. With a cast bullet sized to .452" it will not pass the plunk test in any brand of brass other than Remington Peters. I will not use a Lee FCD on any cast lead loading and I have not tried sizing to .451... So yes tolerance stacking works against me very badly.

So I see only a small number of options to a problem that in my mind as already been resolved and with a solution that works perfectly and didn't cost me a dime! Options; Alter the chamber on a 28 year old gun that shoot perfectly with factory load. Not going to happen... Quit reloading for this gun and only shoot factory ammunition. Also not going to happen... Spend the money on a number of different reloading dies until I might find one that works for this. Not... Buy a sizing die to resize to .451". Very viable option... Just use brass that I found already works with cast bullets. I get this stuff for Free.

Now that I just got home from working at the 100yd range today and am finally hydrated and cooled off. I'm going off to sort 45acp brass by headstamp and primer size. you all have fun, I'm going to!

[kmw1954]

Sorted through all my 45acp brass and come up with about 300+ pcs in all that bucket. Guess the R*P isn't that popular in these parts. Though I did just order a new .451" Lee bullet Lube/sizer die and with give that a go and see what happens.

[tazman]

Sounds like a plan to me. Good luck with it.

[kmw1954]

Now we will have to see how good a plan it is. Dies is only costing me about $23.00

[Ozark mike]

Im sorry but if i have 2 or more guns of the same cal and one wont eat good ammo that the others will i would make a change either to the ammo the wepon in question or my collection cause it would drive me up the wall eventually

[lbrowning]

I had the same issue with the Lee .452 200 grain bullet. I found by trial and error that I needed to seat it just the barest fraction more and it would plunk perfectly. Apparently, that profile is just a bit fatter than the commercial ammo I was using. Good luck.

[Ozark mike]

The Ogive could be a problem thats probably why holidays 230 grn worked but not the 200

[kmw1954]

I had the same issue with the Lee .452 200 grain bullet. I found by trial and error that I needed to seat it just the barest fraction more and it would plunk perfectly. Apparently, that profile is just a bit fatter than the commercial ammo I was using. Good luck.

Nice thought and I wish it were that simple but this same issue occurs with 3 different bullets from three different mold and designs. From a Lyman 452374, Lee 200gr SWC and the Lee 200gr RNFP. The case sticks well before it is reaching the rifling.

[samari46]

Regarding ammo fits in various 45 autos. One is a 1943 Ithaca 1911A1 and the other is a custom Springfield Armory (the one in Illinois) with a Knowlin barrel. All ammo is loaded on a Dillon 550B using their dies and store bought 230 grain hard cast round nosed bullets. So basically the seating depth of the .452 diameter bullet is the same. While one my argue that the Ithaca has a wartime or military chamber neither pistol has never had a problem digesting that loading. Made up a few extra dummies of this load, no powder nor primer just to do the initial plunk test and set up the dies if they ever became mis adjusted. Been using Winchesters WST for years and have no desire to try out another powder. Frank

[Burnt Fingers]

Im sorry but if i have 2 or more guns of the same cal and one wont eat good ammo that the others will i would make a change either to the ammo the wepon in question or my collection cause it would drive me up the wall eventually

I've got over a dozen each of 45 ACP and 9mm firearms. I don't make special loads for a particular firearm.

Either it eats what I load or it goes. I will send barrels out to be throated since many manufacturers aren't cutting chambers and leades to SAMMI spec.

[edp2k]

I will send barrels out to be throated since many manufacturers aren't cutting chambers and leades to SAMMI spec.

This.

Every time a manufacturer uses a chambering reamer it incurs a certain amount or wear.
Of course that wear makes the chamber it cuts slightly smaller with each use.

At a certain point, after a certain number of chambers are cut with the same reamer,
the chamber that is cut is under the SAMMI spec for the minimum sized chamber dimension.
Some manufacturers, and sometimes at different times at a given manufacturer,
the reamer gets replaced before or when it first cuts an out of spec chamber.
At other times or other manufactures, they keep on using the worn reamer even thought it is now cutting out-of-spec chambers.
Thus may be due to a mistake or not checking the size of the cut chambers frequently enough,
or it may be due to an overt policy of "deferred maintenance" due to trying to cut costs and pinch pennies.

Thus in this case a "tight chamber" is not a chamber specifically cut to tight match specifications
(which would still be withing SAMMI specs), in this case it's a chamber cut by a worn-out reamer
because the manufacturer wasn't paying attention or the manufacturer knew darn well that the tooling was worn but
thought it was OK to ship product to a customer that didn't meet spec as long as the manufacturer was "saving money".

[edp2k]

I am curious, why did the OP post about this issue if they were NOT seeking assistance in fixing the actual root cause of the problem?
They posted just to vent?
Based on OP's reaction to people offering advice on how to fix the root cause, I guess so.

[Ozark mike]

People just like to talk sometimes i guess kinda hard to talk to your wife when about halfway thru she asks "now hun whats acp stand for again" so he came to talk the talk with gun people or he's secretly writing everything down like mad sayin "this is some really good stuff why didn't i think of this" or who knows i don't.

[kmw1954]

I am curious, why did the OP post about this issue if they were NOT seeking assistance in fixing the actual root cause of the problem?
They posted just to vent?
Based on OP's reaction to people offering advice on how to fix the root cause, I guess so.

Or maybe there is only an issue for those looking to give advice?

Seems every forum has a "What have you done today?" thread that has no issue. You know like a normal conversation or don't people talk to one another anymore? Nowhere in that first post did I ask for assistance or suggest that I had a problem. The whole problem was I ran out of clean brass and now have to clean some more. Why is that so hard to understand?

[onelight]

There is usually more than one way to make things work , if the method works for you , the tools you use and your guns it's all your choice.
I like threads like this to hear different solutions to a problem it's only when a people insist they have the ONLY solution that works, that egos take the thread from informative to irritating .

[toallmy]

I used RP brass in my wife's 9 mm simply because it shot better groups - until I realized I was actually squeezing my boolits to much with a little thicker brass . After experimenting with my alloy I found a little harder alloy solved my case swaggering issue . Although this has nothing to do with chambering a round issues - the idea of trying a few things paid off in the end .
Hopefully your .451 will work out .

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP>>>

Amazed at how this turned into a major discussion on everything but the wall thickness of the brass and just what a simple influence like that can have!

Yep, that's what happens on a forum like this...On the positive side, there are lots of things to be discovered and/or learned, but not just for you, but for everyone else reading this.

I have a S&W 625JM with the same issues. To handload cast boolit ammo that will reliably chamber moon clips full of ammo, I have to use R+P brass with boolits that are sized to .4515 (I honed out a sizer just specially for this application). I have thought about having the cylinder reamed, but I have another issue, that my moon clips work so much better with R+P brass and Not so much with some other brands, so I'd have to sort brass for that reason...or buy other Moon clips.

[kmw1954]

Folks I understand, everyone looking to offer advice and thinking there is always a problem. Well there was a problem over a 3 years ago when I first started loading for this gun and then when I started loading Lead Boolits. The solution was a simple one, just use what works and not fight it. As I have stated I have been shooting cast lead in this gun for over a year now with these loads and it has been 100% reliable. So why change it now?

So I am guessing that some took issue that after all this time I finally ran out of my stash of workable brass for these loads and now have to invest the time to sort thru a large bucket of mixed brass to recover what will work for this gun. Maybe some see that as unnecessary or added work.

All of these things brought up here were also brought up and discussed back 3 years ago. So sorry for any confusion, sorry you didn't enjoy the conversation but maybe it's time to close this topic.

[ReloaderEd]

[B]You have a tight chamber there. I used cast bullets years ago sized .451". 1/1000 of an inch isn't much but it might work? [A tapered crimp might help too.266107/B]

[Burnt Fingers]

This.

Every time a manufacturer uses a chambering reamer it incurs a certain amount or wear.
Of course that wear makes the chamber it cuts slightly smaller with each use.

At a certain point, after a certain number of chambers are cut with the same reamer,
the chamber that is cut is under the SAMMI spec for the minimum sized chamber dimension.
Some manufacturers, and sometimes at different times at a given manufacturer,
the reamer gets replaced before or when it first cuts an out of spec chamber.
At other times or other manufactures, they keep on using the worn reamer even thought it is now cutting out-of-spec chambers.
Thus may be due to a mistake or not checking the size of the cut chambers frequently enough,
or it may be due to an overt policy of "deferred maintenance" due to trying to cut costs and pinch pennies.

Thus in this case a "tight chamber" is not a chamber specifically cut to tight match specifications
(which would still be withing SAMMI specs), in this case it's a chamber cut by a worn-out reamer
because the manufacturer wasn't paying attention or the manufacturer knew darn well that the tooling was worn but
thought it was OK to ship product to a customer that didn't meet spec as long as the manufacturer was "saving money".

Most 9mm chambers today aren't cut to SAMMI spec with regards to the throat. I've seen some that have the rifling at a 90° angle to the chamber with no leade.

I've got a S&W 5906 that has a correctly cut chamber. It will eat almost anything. You can visibly see the difference.

[kmw1954]

UPDATE;

The lee .451" sizing die arrived today and did a quick check with a couple of cast bullets that were sized to .452" and tumble lubed. Took 10 of those and ran then back through the new .451" die and then tried seating them into some Winchester brass. The first one still would not seat completely but much closer than before. Second one almost completely seated but not quite. On the third one I turned the seating/crimp die down just less than an 1/8 of a turn and then backed the seating stem back out. This time it dropped all the way in and dropped out with a slight shake. So this is showing promise.

I then lubed and sized 120 bullets that were untouched through this new .451" die and the 45/45/10 is drying now. Will try to load them up tomorrow and then shoot them next week in both guns to see if the smaller size is going to effect accuracy or barrel leading. The XD isn't as picky.

[Cherokee]

kmw - it was an interesting thread to read thru and could be helpful to others. I understood your comment from the beginning because I have found that for certain loads, certain brass work best. I have a stash of RP brass used only for certain loads. For 20+ years I used .451 sized bullets in 45 ACP, then tried .452 last century and things improved in my guns to be my standard now. Good luck in your quest.