Help with PID

[prickett]

I just built a PID controller using a PID donated to me (Red Lion T48). I believe it is wired correctly, but when I plug a lamp or Lee lead furnace into it, I'm not getting light or heat. I then plugged in a volt meter and am seeing 95.2 volts going to the output.

2 questions:
1) would 95.2 V be too low to power on the lamp or furnace? (meaning the PID is working correctly, but just doesn't have the output power set correctly?)
2) if the above is too low, what needs to be configured to up the output V? I see % Output Power, which looks likely, but the docs say "Appears only if unit is in Manual Control". The manual then describes "Manual Control" as "and Manual Control (openloop; where the control does not work from the setpoint or process feedback.)"

[Mike W1]

I just built a PID controller using a PID donated to me (Red Lion T48). I believe it is wired correctly, but when I plug a lamp or Lee lead furnace into it, I'm not getting light or heat. I then plugged in a volt meter and am seeing 95.2 volts going to the output.

2 questions:
1) would 95.2 V be too low to power on the lamp or furnace? (meaning the PID is working correctly, but just doesn't have the output power set correctly?)
2) if the above is too low, what needs to be configured to up the output V? I see % Output Power, which looks likely, but the docs say "Appears only if unit is in Manual Control". The manual then describes "Manual Control" as "and Manual Control (openloop; where the control does not work from the setpoint or process feedback.)"

I'd be happy to help if I can but it'd really help to know what the PID model is and the wiring diagram that you used. Maybe best if you PM that info to me along with your email address as that stuff is more easily handled (IMO) via email. Easier to send files or attachments if needed. Quick guess would be a wire hooked in wrong place somewhere.

[HATCH]

Can you take a picture of your setup?

I found the manual -> https://www.instrumart.com/assets/Red-Lion-T48-P48-Manual.pdf

You should have a SSR that you are using.
For discussion we are gonna label the ssr as the picture below shows
265847

1 should be incoming power (line)
2 should be power going out (load)
3 Positive from your PID controller
4 neg from your PID controller

Using your volt meter do the following
AC VOLTAGE

wall outlet - check neutral to hot Should be 110-125vac
SSR - check neutral to #1 Should be the above voltage
SSR check neutral to #2 (when PID is powered up and is not at set point) should be within 1 volt of the above voltage
SSR check #1 to #2 should be a very low number if not zero

DC VOLTAGE

Check # 3 and # 4 - should be between 3 and 32 vdc most likely 5 to 10 vdc

Do those checks and provide some pictures if you want me to help you

[prickett]

Here is what I did. I wired it up just to see if it'd work before spending time putting it in a neat enclosure. Given my history with projects, I didn't want to waste time and money only to find it doesn't work (as, well, it turned out not to).

The green wire going off the picture to the left is the AC power.
The green wire going off the picture to the right feeds the Lee furnace.
The Red and white wires at the 12 o'clock of the PID are the thermocouple inputs (8 and 9 on the PID diagram)
The Red and white wires at the 3 0'clock of the PID are the AC inputs (11 and 12 on the PID diagram)
The Red and white wires at the 6 o'clock of the PID are the outputs to the SSR (4 and 5 on the PID diagram)

265865
265866

[HATCH]

looks like its wired up right.
need to verify voltages.

I ran into a issue a couple months ago which caused me to make a 90 min service call to visit a Master Caster Panel customer.
The pot would never get up to temp. I checked my voltages and we had 119 vac at the outlet, 119 vac on the line side but only 85 vac on the load side. The SSR was calling for full voltage as its is a ON/OFF device it isn't like a valve were it controls the amount of voltage.
I replaced the SSR with a spare that I had brought and life was good again.

The PID pulses the SSR to regulate the temp.
Typically on initial startup you will see some quick on/off on the SSR (if yours has a light) then it will go solid.
Once it gets close to the set point it will start flashing again and when at set point it will flash as it is trying to maintain the temp.
Imagine the SSR as a rocket engine with just a on/off switch. It is either wide open or its off.

[HATCH]

I think I got something
Looking over closely at the SSR, I noticed something.

That model SSR uses 90-280 VAC on the control side.

I believe that model PID provided a @7 volt output for the SSR.
That would explain why you aren't getting any heating as you aren't activating the SSR.

[prickett]

looks like its wired up right.
need to verify voltages.

I ran into a issue a couple months ago which caused me to make a 90 min service call to visit a Master Caster Panel customer.
The pot would never get up to temp. I checked my voltages and we had 119 vac at the outlet, 119 vac on the line side but only 85 vac on the load side. The SSR was calling for full voltage as its is a ON/OFF device it isn't like a valve were it controls the amount of voltage.
I replaced the SSR with a spare that I had brought and life was good again.


Sounds similar to what I'm seeing. 119 vac going into the PID, but only 85 vac coming out.



Typically on initial startup you will see some quick on/off on the SSR (if yours has a light) then it will go solid.
Once it gets close to the set point it will start flashing again and when at set point it will flash as it is trying to maintain the temp.
Imagine the SSR as a rocket engine with just a on/off switch. It is either wide open or its off.

Mine has a light but it never illuminates.

Further observations:
When I put a volt meter on the main control output, I get a 0 vac reading. When I place the volt meter on the output cord (that feeds the Lee furnace), I see 85 VAC. Does that seem like the SSR is broken (stuck in the on position)?



That model SSR uses 90-280 VAC on the control side.

I believe that model PID provided a @7 volt output for the SSR.
That would explain why you aren't getting any heating as you aren't activating the SSR.

This, combined with the no light coming on would suggest this is the problem. I don't understand, however, how I'm getting 85 vac going to the furnace if the SSR isn't in the on state.

[HATCH]

Your getting bleed thru voltage but no current

Get the correct ssr


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[prickett]

Your getting bleed thru voltage but no current

Get the correct ssr


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Will do. Does this look like a good candidate?

265910

https://www.amazon.com/INKBIRD-Solid-State-SSR-40DA-24-380V/dp/B00HV974KC/ref=psdc_6374820011_t2_B017W7N4J2

[jsizemore]

Is #4&5 main control output actually DC voltage. Your SSR is actually controlled by 90-280 volts AC. The OP needs one like the pic in Hatch's post #3.

That inkbird should work!

[jsizemore]

Sounds similar to what I'm seeing. 119 vac going into the PID, but only 85 vac coming out.



Mine has a light but it never illuminates.

Further observations:
When I put a volt meter on the main control output, I get a 0 vac reading. When I place the volt meter on the output cord (that feeds the Lee furnace), I see 85 VAC. Does that seem like the SSR is broken (stuck in the on position)?



This, combined with the no light coming on would suggest this is the problem. I don't understand, however, how I'm getting 85 vac going to the furnace if the SSR isn't in the on state.

Since your getting 0 vac at the main control output, try changing your meter to DC voltage.

[HATCH]

That inkbird will work.
Please keep in mind that there is a very slight possibility that the PID May of been damaged by using the incorrect SSR but I am pretty sure it’s gonna be ok.


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[dpoe001]

i can send you or email you the manual for everything you have or pics on how to wire it up or if it needs it repair board for the pid.

[dpoe001]

Private message sent on the pid

[prickett]

Since your getting 0 vac at the main control output, try changing your meter to DC voltage.

Thanks for noticing my error. I tried DC and am still getting 0 volts. Seems like the PID might be defective? I'm going to try a new SSR first, then a new PID if it still doesn't work.

[dpoe001]

that str is not DC voltage it is 120 VAC

[prickett]

that str is not DC voltage it is 120 VAC

The input to the SSR I used says 90-260 VAC.

The output on the PID has a positive and negative terminal. And, the Inkbird SSR I ordered shows input of 3-32 VDC. Based on the PID having +/- terminals I believe the feed to the SSR is VDC.

[HATCH]

I unsubscribed to this thread so if you need any additional help send me a PM


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[prickett]

I received my new SSR and it does not change things. I believe that the PID isn't sending out a signal to the SSR (volt meter shows 0 VDC coming out). So a new PID is next up :-(

[Mike W1]

A quick way to check the PID is to take the TC leads loose on the back of the PID. Short across those 2 terminals with a jumper wire and the readout on the PID should show ambient temperature.

[lar45]

Are you sure that you have a SSR output from the PID?
Some are made to do 4-20mA

[HATCH]

According to his model # it is a dc voltage output model for the SSR.


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[prickett]

A quick way to check the PID is to take the TC leads loose on the back of the PID. Short across those 2 terminals with a jumper wire and the readout on the PID should show ambient temperature.

It shows the correct temp when using the TC. It also shows it should be sending power to the SSR (via an indicator on the PID). But, there is no voltage on the terminals hooking into the SSR.

[HATCH]

If you measuring DC voltage then it would be safe to assume there is a issue with that PID.


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[lar45]

You might try disconnecting the SSR from the PID and then see if there is any output to the SSR terminals.

[prickett]

I think I'm going to punt on this Red Lion PID and buy either a Inkbird or Mypin. Which of these two would you recommend (ease of programming + accurate enough + works with the Inkbird SSR listed below)?

(ignore the picture attached. I added it accidentally, then removed it, yet it still appears)

https://www.amazon.com/TA4-SNR-Thermocouple-Digital-Temperature-Controller/dp/B0195V53X8/ref=mp_s_a_1_1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N0UK0R3


SSR:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HV974KC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00

[redhawk0]

DELETED - I see someone already pointed out it was an ac controlled SSR not a dc controlled.

redhawk

[Rizzo]

I think I'm going to punt on this Red Lion PID and buy either a Inkbird or Mypin. Which of these two would you recommend (ease of programming + accurate enough + works with the Inkbird SSR listed below)?

(ignore the picture attached. I added it accidentally, then removed it, yet it still appears)

https://www.amazon.com/TA4-SNR-Thermocouple-Digital-Temperature-Controller/dp/B0195V53X8/ref=mp_s_a_1_1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N0UK0R3


SSR:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HV974KC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00
Check out Ebay for a PID.
I saw a MyPin going for about $24.00.

[lar45]

I've been using the MyPin TA4. They are quick and easy to setup.
My favorite one was the Rex C100, it was very stable. Came with crap Chinese instructions. The first batch I got would switch between F and C, the second batch I got would only readout in C.
I've switched to using the 40Amp SSRs, if you look at the specs, they have much less loss in the 10-15 Amp range most casting pots draw.

Anyway, here's what I've been doing.
266156

266157

266158

[prickett]

What needs to be set when programming either the Inkbird or Mypin other than the set point, input type (K thermocouple), Celsius/Fahrenheit, max and min temp? Anything?

[lar45]

I just set the max temp to 1000, set it to readout F, I belive that it comes preset for K type, but it's easy to cycle through the settings to check. The instructions for the Mypin are fairly straight forward and easy to read. After I get the pot up to temp, I run the Auto Tune to set the P. I. D. values.
I've never had a problem with the Mypin TA4.

Depending on the size box you have, you might want to include a small PC fan and drill some vent holes. I use an Aluminum box, so it also serves as a heat sink.

[prickett]

I just set the max temp to 1000, set it to readout F, I belive that it comes preset for K type, but it's easy to cycle through the settings to check. The instructions for the Mypin are fairly straight forward and easy to read. After I get the pot up to temp, I run the Auto Tune to set the P. I. D. values.
I've never had a problem with the Mypin TA4.

Depending on the size box you have, you might want to include a small PC fan and drill some vent holes. I use an Aluminum box, so it also serves as a heat sink.

Thanks! I don't know anything about auto tune, can you please explain what that does and/or if it is necessary?

[HATCH]

Auto tune basically allows the PID to learn the heating characteristics of whatever it is controlling.
How long it takes to heat up and cool down.
It resets the programming and basically makes the operating window go down. Operating window is basically when it turns on and turns off. This window should be +\- 5 degrees max at the temps we cast at, if it is setup properly. Out of the box it may be higher.

Example, I had a customer contact me this week. He got a PID and set it up on his toaster oven.
Initially it would operate +\- 15 degrees of set point.

He ran auto tune and now it initially goes to 10 degrees over set point, then drops to set point and now holds at +\- 1 degree.


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[prickett]

Auto tune basically allows the PID to learn the heating characteristics of whatever it is controlling.
How long it takes to heat up and cool down.
It resets the programming and basically makes the operating window go down. Operating window is basically when it turns on and turns off. This window should be +\- 5 degrees max at the temps we cast at, if it is setup properly. Out of the box it may be higher.

Example, I had a customer contact me this week. He got a PID and set it up on his toaster oven.
Initially it would operate +\- 15 degrees of set point.

He ran auto tune and now it initially goes to 10 degrees over set point, then drops to set point and now holds at +\- 1 degree.


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Thanks for the explanation! Is this required once, or every time you use the PID?

[HATCH]

Once.
In recommend that each time you switch devices, let’s say between your oven and your pot, that you run auto tune.


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[prickett]

Once.
In recommend that each time you switch devices, let’s say between your oven and your pot, that you run auto tune.


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Thank you! I appreciate everyone's help.