45-410 judge for bear protection

[farmbif]

I just got off the phone with friend with gold fever traveling through Western states doing some panning and dredging, right now in South Dakota with next planned stop in Wyoming. He was saying he's very concerned about brown bears and is bent on getting a Judge that shoots 45 colt and 410 for protection.
Is that good enough protection with factory loads?
I was thinking 44 mag to be sure but I'm no expert and the only place Ive ever seen a brown bear was on TV.

[Outpost75]

He would be much better off with a 12-ga. pump shotgun.

The Judge is a sub-par performer in .45 Colt and a poor performer in .410.

He would be better off carrying a rucksack full of Crispy-Creme doughnuts to throw at and distract the bear and then run away.

[Conditor22]

↑↑↑↑:bigsmyl2:↑↑↑↑

I know a 50 AE works

[Texas by God]

↑↑↑↑:bigsmyl2:↑↑↑↑

I know a 50 AE worksYes, but the 12 gauge is lighter weight![emoji16]
Ditto on Outpost's opinion of the Judge. I know nothing about bears but I do know about 12 gauge.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Chad5005]

if he bought a raging bull judge it would be a little better 45-454-.410

[kerplode]

Really? A Judge? LOL!

Your friend should buy some bear spray. He'll probably just end up hurting himself with a gun.

[gon2shoot]

The judge will be just fine, wait till the bear swallows you then shoot him in the heart as you go by.

[too many things]

tell him to file the sights off, so it wont hurt when the bear puts in the wrong place

[Outpost75]

Yes, but the 12 gauge is lighter weight![emoji16]
Ditto on Outpost's opinion of the Judge. I know nothing about bears but I do know about 12 gauge.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I can tell you from experience that the Crispy Creme doughnuts work.

We used to trap nuisance bears to tag, put radio collars on and relocate them to the most remote part of the state. If they returned they would be shot. Doughnut waste from the Crispy-Creme bakery, especially the raw yeast dough, worked better than anything else, but fried apple pie and cinnamon rolls all goobered up with honey, molasses, Hershey's or maple syrup was also good if you had a washtub full or more.

[MT Gianni]

Brown Bears live in Alaska, Black bears in most of the US and Canada. If I was committed to using a Judge, I would use 410 shot and hope to blind the bear until I could get to a real gun. I would truthfully look for a Ruger in 45 or a 44 Mag. A home defense 12 gauge set up would work better. If he is making any noise at all the bears will leave long before he arrives. If he is being quiet and panning areas known to contain gold they are probably claimed and he is in far more danger than from a bear.

[M-Tecs]

Grizzlies are actually a subspecies of brown bear and they do range in the U.S., the grizzly bear can be found in Alaska, Montana, Washington, Wyoming, and a few in Idaho. The population of grizzly bears in North America is around 55,000 with 31,000 of those in Alaska alone. Approximately 21,000 are in Canada and anywhere from 1200-1500 in the lower 48 states. The majority of the bears in the lower states are in Montana and Wyoming with a few pockets in Idaho and Washington.

https://whatstates.org/what-states-do-grizzly-bears-live-in/

Some actual usage here: https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/update-handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attack-93-cases-97-effective/#axzz6UNdIcto1

[rking22]

I would go with almost anything but the judge! I played around with buying one after shooting skeet with one . Yes on a regulation field, worked fine on baseline, even doubles. Ok on 2 and 6, 3,4,and5 there was not enough pattern density to break, only an occasional chip. I borrowed that gun one day to try 45 colts. Would barely hold a cylinder in a washtub! Nope, don’t want one. For bear, 12 ha 870 with round ball loads.

[Wag]

Judge is far too underpowered. A .44 magnum is about the minimum......

--Wag--

[Thumbcocker]

I can tell you from experience that the Crispy Creme doughnuts work.

We used to trap nuisance bears to tag, put radio collars on and relocate them to the most remote part of the state. If they returned they would be shot. Doughnut waste from the Crispy-Creme bakery, especially the raw yeast dough, worked better than anything else, but fried apple pie and cinnamon rolls all goobered up with honey, molasses, Hershey's or maple syrup was also good if you had a washtub full or more.

I don't know about bears but I know one balding fat boolit caster that you could trap with that concoction.

[Norske]

The Judge is great, for stopping a carjacking. Bears of either species, not so much. Look for the posting about handguns for bear, maybe in the hunting forum. Read the linked information.

[rintinglen]

I can think of darn few handguns less suited for the role of "bear protection" than the Judge or Governor. Inaccurate, under-performing, unsuited for use with the Ruger-only 45 Colt loads that would have some utility, there is nothing to recommend either of these guns for this purpose. My own thoughts are that other choices are far superior.

Because I assume that while prospecting, my hands are going to be full of other stuff or doing other things, a rifle or shotgun would not be constantly available. Murphy says that the one time you need it it will be resting against a stump some place out of reach. Therefore, I'd want a handgun that I could carry with me continuously, even while busy with my pan or pick.

The least powerful handgun that I would consider for defense against a 600 lb bear is a 4 inch 357 loaded to the gills with a 170-180 grain bullet. But, I would be much happier with a 44 magnum of at least 4 inch barrel length. Of the guns I currently own, I'd carry either my Taurus 44 mag tracker or my Ruger Redhawk 44 mag, loaded with stout hardcast 240-260 grain loads.

Given that I now live in Virginia and have about the same chance of seeing a Grizzly as I do an honest Chicago politician this merely hypothetical, but in years gone by, I did carry my Redhawk while fly fishing in Idaho. It rode in a cross-draw holster, ostensibly accessible to either hand.

[Idaho45guy]

The ideal bear defense handgun is one that can be deployed and fired quickly and fairly accurately and deliver enough energy to penetrate into vital organs. For larger Browns and Grizzlies, a short-barreled revolver in .454 Casull, hot .45 Colt, or 44 Magnum with hard cast boolits is ideal.

Most black bears in the West are smaller than ones in the East and less aggressive. The average size of a black bear in Idaho is under 200lbs. I carry a Glock 29 in 10mm with 4.5" KKM barrel and fiber optic sights. I usually have an X-Grip adapter so I can utilize the Glock 20 15-round magazines loaded with 200 grain hard cast boolits. It will take care of any 4-legged or 2-legged threat I encounter in the woods. It will be on my hip in a military-issue flap holster tomorrow when I go camping in the Idaho wilderness.

There was a guy on another forum who just last month was at a neighborhood barbecue when an injured and angry black bear burst from the bushes and attacked the neighbor's black lab. (black on black crime is a real problem...)

The guy drew his 9mm semi-auto loaded with handloaded 124gr Hornady XTPs and shot the bear at 25 yards, stopping the attack, then followed up with a head shot at 15 yards, killing the bear instantly.

It worked wonderfully, despite common knowledge that a 9mm is "just going to anger a bear". Uh, nope.

[Norske]

We've been told by locals in our northwestern travels (from Libby, MT all the way to Denali National Park) that black bears are very aggressive when they share their space with grizzlies. We were warned not expect a "Minnesota bear experience" with blacks that have to compete.

[onelight]

I don't know about bears but I know one balding fat boolit caster that you could trap with that concoction. [smilie=l:
I thought the same thing ! If he set that up around here he would get sick of shooing me and my grandkids out of his trap :-P

[lar45]

I have a Judge, it rides in the center console of the truck.
I would not consider it for Bear protection, especially with Buckshot loads.
Have your buddy get a 454 or 480.

[onelight]

The judge would be good if he does not want to be killed by the bear.......... and he only needs to load 1 cartridge in it if he is out alone . :razz:

[Ozark mike]

I wouldn't but then again you might be a little better then them city folks who bring pocket knives taco seasoning and 9mm to the ball game. I work for a business who deals with montana bears on a regular basis i personally carry a 45-70 and the boss has a 500 mag. The judge was a bad joke at best except maybe fer women who need purse protection in the big citys. get ya a 460 so when its needed ya can say you brought enough gun

[DougGuy]

Well if all he considers his hide worth is the cost of a Judge, then he's already signed off on serious defense and might as well carry a box of donuts, with luck he can throw them farther than he can shoot a Judge accurately.

It kills me that so many folks seem to want to estimate the threat of a bear, and only use just enough gun to accomodate that level of threat, when they SHOULD be considering the worst case scenario, and arming themselves accordingly. I.e. carrying the biggest gun they can shoot accurately.

An Alaskan 454 is great, IF you can get it back on target for rapid follow up shot or two, a 12ga semi auto makes a LOT more sense am I right?

[brass410]

where's he going? I wanna watch the show when he touches off a round of 410 buckshot at a unhappy bear of any kind, its likely to stand up and say " man the black flies are really bad this year and they're noisy too" LOL followed by " hey what do you think your doin in my garden?" A stone sling would be marginally worse, although it did work one time before, but I believe there was some divine intervention, maybe he should take a holy person with him.

[Ozark mike]

Ehh just ask em politely not to eat ya
https://youtu.be/DpEOLW61rkI

[Ramguy]

John Ross' .500 S&W Should, Would, and Will work.

[Drm50]

A small 25 auto is better choice. Light and flat, easy carry and you can shoot yourself in the head with it to avoid the pain a bear might inflict on you. A Judge is a piece of junk to begin with and 45/410 ain’t much against bear. A buddy of mine won the carbine version at a Gun Blast. Shooting 45s was waste of money. At 50’ rested it shot like a shotgun. With 410 may be garden gun. In Judge I’ve only shot #6 and I will say that if a person needs snake gun it’s way better than any shot load you can devise for pistols.

I had a guy wanting me to sell him something for bears. He retired and was going to Alaska to fly fish. He brought with him a custom fly rod. He bragged about what the rod blank cost, the line guides were the most expensive you could buy, the reel seat, yada yada yada. Guy had several hundred dollars in this rod. I ask him what kind of money did he want to spend on bear gun. He says $40-50. I told him that would buy a box of shells for it and he got mad and left.

[richhodg66]

I never owned one, but really can't figure out whay those Judge things are so popular. Always seemed like an answer looking for a question to me.

Seems like I've seen a lot of reports of blown up guns with them too. The suggestion for a 12 gauge pump gun i sound, and it would actually be useful for other things.

[Ozark mike]

I never owned one, but really can't figure out whay those Judge things are so popular. Always seemed like an answer looking for a question to me.

Seems like I've seen a lot of reports of blown up guns with them too. The suggestion for a 12 gauge pump gun i sound, and it would actually be useful for other things.

They are Only rated for standard pressure unlike a blackhawk which i do consider to be a good bear gun

[onelight]

The 410 length chambers eat some velocity from 45 and 410 from a short barrel revolver with any load is nothing that is going to penetrate deep and break bones on something heavy and close with teeth.
I would rather have at a minimum a 4" 357 loaded with max heavy bullet loads and prefer 10 mm and up heavy bullet loads , for me would be a .44 or .45. I am not going hunting and there are other more likely threats than an attacking black bear .
So I would carry what I almost always carry loaded for bear :-|
But we all get to choose he may be hoping that 410 will make up for a lack of shooting skill.

[Boogieman]

3 " 410 buckshot equals 5 shots from a 36 cal. Cap& Ball

[rking22]

3 " 410 buckshot equals 5 shots from a 36 cal. Cap& Ball

I am not so sure about that. Any chrono data for that 410 load from the 3 inch barrel? 1200 from a 28 inch is about right, I really doubt it’s anywhere near that in the pistol length. 35 gr pyrodex p gets 1250 with that 80 gr ball. For the size of a judge you can get 41 mag or better and expect to hit something with it.

[onelight]

3 " 410 buckshot equals 5 shots from a 36 cal. Cap& Ball

I have seen some gel tests with them and most will exit a 12" block not much penetration when you would be trying to stop a bear from the front and are going to have to break bones to make it happen . Not a lot of penetration from 70 grain balls at 750 to 800 FPS . I would find feet of penetration much more comforting than inches.
That said if that was all I had I would use it but not what I would pack for the job.

[Ozark mike]

44 mag is minimum around here for griz. I kid you not my carry gun is a bfr 45-70. 5 shot revolver 500 grn loaded to 1500 fps which is a little hot for most. But the point is get the highest powered revolver you can shoot quickly and accurately. if yore planning to come fool around in this country people get ate every year a few years ago a fwp official got killed because he ran into one on a bicycle unarmed give me a break. my mom who is 65 5ft tall and weighs 100 lbs carries a 44 mag loaded to the hilt with 296 and a lee 310 and is absolutely deadly with it. If he cant handle a 44 or a 12 ga bring someone who can period

[onelight]

Here is Brass Fetchers test results with 410 revolver. http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/410%20Bore/410%20Bore%20Revolver%20Terminal%20Ballistics.html

[Idaho45guy]

I never owned one, but really can't figure out whay those Judge things are so popular. Always seemed like an answer looking for a question to me.

Seems like I've seen a lot of reports of blown up guns with them too. The suggestion for a 12 gauge pump gun i sound, and it would actually be useful for other things.

My dad bought one when he retired and started wintering in Arizona. It's an excellent snake gun. It's also fine for anything he'd run across in the desert sections of AZ.

There are very few areas in the lower 48 where you need to be concerned about bear attacks as they are pretty rare.

266042

https://rollingfox.com/map-fatal-bear-attacks-state-north-america

[Ozark mike]

Im pretty sure that map aint accurate

[Boogieman]

It doesn't matter how rare bear attacks are if you are the one

[Idaho45guy]

Im pretty sure that map aint accurate

It was the most recent data I could find for bear fatalities in North America and is from 2018.

This other source is from 2017 and pretty much has the same results...

https://www.ktuu.com/content/news/MAP-Fatal-Bear-Attacks-in-North-America-432734333.html

[Ozark mike]

I think someone forgot to report a few probably a democrat that thinks bears are all fuzzy and cute and couldn't believe one would kill the mean human stomping around in the forest where he doesnt belong
Heres some
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.greatfallstribune.com/amp/86568632

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.greatfallstribune.com/amp/3270359001

[Idaho45guy]

I think someone forgot to report a few probably a democrat that thinks bears are all fuzzy and cute and couldn't believe one would kill the mean human stomping around in the forest where he doesnt belong
Heres some
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.greatfallstribune.com/amp/86568632

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.greatfallstribune.com/amp/3270359001

You do realize that the links you provided match up exactly with the map I linked that reported exactly 5 bear attack fatalities in Montana in the last 20 years, right?

So in essence, you said the map link I posted was "ain't accurate" then posted a link to an article that basically mirrored the results I posted.

Either you are confused about the facts, or are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[ReloaderFred]

Keep the thread on track and civil, please. We don't want to have to close it.

[Ozark mike]

It said 3 and i said this is just some of the people that got attacked i havent kept track over the years but I've heard of a lot more than just 3 or 5 over the last 10 years. Im just trying to provide accurate info since we all know the media can't/wont

[onelight]

The map says "fatal" not every one attacked is killed , sometimes it may be fatal for the bear.

[bangerjim]

I own both the handgun and long gun version of the Judge. Cool guns, but no match for a bear!!!!!!! OMG!!!!

They work well for small varmints and snakes. And 45 target plinking.

Still, it IS fun to shoot 45's and 410's out of the same gun.

But tell your buddy to get a 12 gauge Mossy!

[downzero]

Everyone seems to be talking about the caliber, but I'd be much more concerned about it being a Taurus. I wouldn't want to be stuck trusting my life on ANY Taurus.

[Ozark mike]

Everyone seems to be talking about the caliber, but I'd be much more concerned about it being a Taurus. I wouldn't want to be stuck trusting my life on ANY Taurus.

No i think we all agree that a bh in 45 loaded hot is enough. Its just some believe that there are better choices be it. Easier to pack vs more penetration.

[Shawlerbrook]

I won’t give my opinion, because it’s already been covered. Tell him to leave you in his will.

[bangerjim]

Everyone seems to be talking about the caliber, but I'd be much more concerned about it being a Taurus. I wouldn't want to be stuck trusting my life on ANY Taurus.

Sorry you feel that way. I own 3 Taurus pistols and long guns. Perfect pieces right out of the box. I do not know their quality of late, but mine are 5+ years old and are very reliable.

"Name-dropping" is not one of my better suites. It is the performance NOT the name that counts for me.

banger

[littlejack]

Plus one for the Taurus. About thirteen years ago, I bought my first auto pistol. It was the PT 1911 in 45acp. Accurate, and functions great right out of the box. No issues with the pistol.

[downzero]

No i think we all agree that a bh in 45 loaded hot is enough. Its just some believe that there are better choices be it. Easier to pack vs more penetration.

Mine is a Redhawk. I don't know that any handgun is ideal against a bear, but certainly I'd much rather have my 300 grain cast bullets out of it at 1300+ fps than any Taurus.

Sorry for those of you who have had good luck with Taurus, but I can't say the same.

The PT1911 is a great example, the frontstrap profile alone being all blocky makes it feel like you're holding onto a 2x4.

[onelight]

I don't have a Taurus and never have , but there are enough folks here that have them and are happy with them that it would be silly for me to say they are all bad . What has kept me from buying one are the stories of getting them fixed when they have a problem . And I have had problems from many manufactures , even one of my Glocks . Brands that parts are easily available for and have aftermarket support get a big plus in my book.

[ddixie884]

The long chamber and freebore makes it hard to get velocity from the .410/45 guns a .45load that will get 900fps from a standard .45Colt chamber will get much less with the gas loss from the long jump and freewbore in the chamber.

[FergusonTO35]

How about a police surplus Glock 22 .40 with 180 grain FMJ? At least you got 15 of 'em on tap and they will penetrate, unlike the Judge.

[Ozark mike]

How about a police surplus Glock 22 .40 with 180 grain FMJ? At least you got 15 of 'em on tap and they will penetrate, unlike the Judge.

Not enough gun besides I wouldn't be caught with a glock anything or any semi auto for that matter just more there to go wrong and accuracy is of concern for me

[str8wal]

If the Judge could handle Ruger only 45 Colt loads, 30k PSI, then I'd say fine. But, I don' think it would last but for one shot. Any gun is better than no gun, and bears have been killed with less, but I'd rather have a little margin on my side. The long cylinder of the Judge also makes it less than ideal for carry. There are better options out there.

[Idaho45guy]

Not enough gun besides I wouldn't be caught with a glock anything or any semi auto for that matter just more there to go wrong and accuracy is of concern for me

.40 S&W worked just fine on this 900lb moose...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h1XlsskYmY

And all of my glocks will do 1.5" or better at 25 yards. Not sure why you think a Glock is not a reliable handgun; they're pretty much famous for being reliable.

[Ozark mike]

Another grizz attack was announced on the news some guy got mauled but lived

[oldsalt444]

I'm no bear expert, but if I HAD TO use a judge, then I'd get the Raging Judge XXVIII. These were made for a brief period and can handle .454 Casull, 45 Colt and 3" .410 shotshells. On the practical side it can be versatile; but if only for bear protection, then what's the point? A Ruger Alaskan would be my choice.

[Good Cheer]

Shouldn't the "Judge" be loaded with full length brass, black powder and a heavy hollow base? Or are the chambers just not suited?
Oh well, once worked with a rather large fellow that was known to have paid $2500 a glass for hundred year old spirits and to have jumped from a car and chased a large bear down the road with a pen knife, which sums up what I know of large bears and old booze.

[Ozark mike]

Shouldn't the "Judge" be loaded with full length brass, black powder and a heavy hollow base? Or are the chambers just not suited?
Oh well, once worked with a rather large fellow that was known to have paid $2500 a glass for hundred year old spirits and to have jumped from a car and chased a large bear down the road with a pen knife, which sums up what I know of large bears and old booze.

I would pay to have seen that

[Idaho45guy]

Too much mental energy spent on worrying about bears and appropriate firearms. Your chances of injury in the woods from exposure or gathering firewood, or poor physical health are about 100 times greater.

Don't worry about your firearm; worry about your clothing, or your health, or your mental fitness to be operating hand tools.