Winchester 94 using the original sights

[gkainz]

I recently dragged out my Winchester 94 that my dad bought me when I started hunting back in 1972. I'm almost ashamed to admit that I don't think I've fired it since maybe 1976? Old eyes have really frustrated my open sight shooting and I'm really struggling with sight alignment/sight picture, to the point I may find some kind of peep/ghost sight setup for this.
But, as it sits, I do remember really wrestling with getting the sights adjusted - but as a know-it-all kid then, of course never asked for advice. I did kill a few deer with it, but everything very close range... like 25 yards or so, as I recall.

So, attempting to get a picture of the sights here ... what is "proper" for sight alignment? I assume (like I did back then) putting the front bead in the deepest notch of the rear sight but recalling that I really don't think I got them adjusted well using that.

The rear sight is so flat that floating the bead across the top of the ears is a real SWAG with a bunch of imagination on where that line might be.

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[Pigboat]

I think it was on this forum a long time ago someone made a diy peep for a '94. They removed the back plate from the rear sight and manufactured a replacement for it.

https://i.postimg.cc/JnBnF7FX/Winchester-peep-2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/0Nz262P4/Winchester-peep.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Everyone's eyesight is a little different, but for me the proper sight picture is "none of the above." I place the bead on top of the sight blade in the notch. For me, the front sight is much too high in both photos, unless you're using Kentucky elevation (hold over) on a distant target. The sight alignment should look like that of a handgun with the bead in and level with the top of the notch. Also noted, you've left the sight hood on the front sight. Many "experts" advise taking it off when hunting and using it only when stored or transported as protection for the sight. I'll freely admit that I leave mine on also, but if it is removed it makes sighting faster and less complicated.

[gkainz]

well that's interesting! Is my rear sight somehow backwards?
This is from the muzzle end looking back towards the butt ...

265835

I guess not - at least according to found images
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31qUi%2BmV1%2BL._SX425_.jpg

[Der Gebirgsjager]

265843

Looks correct to me...here's one of mine, slightly different model elevator.

[Bazoo]

I replaced the rear sight on my 94. Same as yours originally. I put a Marbles semi buckhorn sight and then reversed the white diamond insert so the sight is all black. I have pretty decent eyesight and shoot irons well, but the combination winchester used sucks. The notch is too wide and too deep for the bead used. With the Marbles sight the notch is more refined. Reversing the plate so it's all black really helped me. I can't use sights that have color in the rear, it plays havock with my eye focus.

[Outpost75]

The factory open sights of the pre-1964 Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 came zeroed to strike within a 3 inch circle drawn tangent at 6:00 inside a 6 inch black aiming bull at 50 yards.

The normal sight picture with open sights is to take a "fine" bead in which the front sight is drawn all the way into the small rear notch, using the bead to take a 6:00 hold on the bull, using factory loads, with the sight elevator set on its lowest notch for 50-yards point of aim = point of impact.

Each step on the open rear sight elevator increases the zero range by approximately 50 yards or meters. Raising the open rear sight into its second elevator step with the correct height of factory front sight height the rifle should then be zeroed at 100 yards, the third notch at 150 yards, and the 4th notch 200, using a "fine" bead, drawn down completely into the small notch, and taking a 6:00 hold on the target.

When using the semi-buckhorn factory open sight for quick combat range estimation, the shoulders of an FBI silhouette or Army "E" target approximately fill the width of the small lower notch at 100 yards or meters. If you can see daylight around the shoulders of the silhouette, the target is farther away than 100 meters and you should then alter your sight picture so that the bead just "floats" above the fine notch. Cover the target with the bead and shoot.

When the bead is leveled with the shoulder inside the buckhorn hovering above the small notch, point of impact approximately coincides with the center of the bead at 200 yards. Proper sight picture then is to hold for center of mass of the Army "D", “E” or “F” silhouettes.

At longer ranges, raise the front sight above the notch so that the bead "floats" between the ears of the semi-buckhorn open sight. The bead then subtends the height of an "F" or "E" silhouette and provides correct elevation to approximately 300 yards or meters.

Receiver peep sights should be zeroed to exploit the optimum trajectory of the .30-30 cartridge. Using factory 170-grain loads with bead front sight and ghost ring aperture the rifle should be zeroed to strike 3-4 inches above the bead at 100 yards. This provides a point of aim = point of impact hold at 170 yards, hitting 3 inches low at 200 yards and 10-1/2” low, in the lower half of Army E or F silhouette targets at 250 yards.

Using a correct sight picture with correct initial zero as described, a lawman who carried the '94 as his patrol rifle, who qualified as Sharpshooter or better at the academy should average 80% hits or better on the Army "E," "F", or "D" silhouettes at 200 yards, 70% or better at 250 yards and 60% hits or better at 300 yards.

The correctly zeroed and managed .30-30 lever action has hit probability equal to the Soviet SKS and will out-perform the typical AK platform at ranges exceeding 150 yards or meters.

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[444ttd]

williams peep sight saved my day!!!!!!

https://shop.williamsgunsight.com/ecommerce/p/fp--winchester-9436-firesight-set-wramped-front-sight-063331

win m94 35/30-30 made in 1972
i was sighting it in, 2 shots, move peep, 2 shots, move peep.....
https://i.imgur.com/nBFtFB6.jpg

[veeman]

I would suggest a Skinner peep sight. It's what I have on a couple 94's and 86's.
http://www.skinnersights.com/images/Skinner_1894.JPG?730

[Mk42gunner]

The way you show in your first picture is the way I shot open iron sights, when I could still see them clearly.

Sadly most barrel mounted OEM sights since the 1950's have been very lacking.

Now days, if I can't mount an aperture sight, I just about have to go scope, or maybe a red dot sight.

Robert

[Hogdaddy]

Back when my eyes were good, I would shoot 2/3 inch at 100 yards no problem ; ) PS
That's with the 6 O clock hold
H/D

[Bazoo]

I've found that a change in targets makes a good bit of difference too. A 4" lime green square is the best I've found thus far.

[indian joe]

I recently dragged out my Winchester 94 that my dad bought me when I started hunting back in 1972. I'm almost ashamed to admit that I don't think I've fired it since maybe 1976? Old eyes have really frustrated my open sight shooting and I'm really struggling with sight alignment/sight picture, to the point I may find some kind of peep/ghost sight setup for this.
But, as it sits, I do remember really wrestling with getting the sights adjusted - but as a know-it-all kid then, of course never asked for advice. I did kill a few deer with it, but everything very close range... like 25 yards or so, as I recall.

So, attempting to get a picture of the sights here ... what is "proper" for sight alignment? I assume (like I did back then) putting the front bead in the deepest notch of the rear sight but recalling that I really don't think I got them adjusted well using that.

The rear sight is so flat that floating the bead across the top of the ears is a real SWAG with a bunch of imagination on where that line might be.

265833
265834

I have "old eyes" too ------if you cant see the sights you cant shoot em -
if that was my rifle
1) file the rear sight so its dead flat across the top
2) widen the notch
3) throw the front sight hood in the nearest blackberry bush
4) I dont like round beads at the front but can work with them - so
5) my sight picture would be the round bead sitting clear in the rear notch, top of the bead level with the flat top of the rear and that rear notch needs to be wide enough that you can see daylight either side of the front bead, and deep enough you can see a little of the stem of the front sight under the bead.

Really I would pull the front sight off and convert it to a wide flat top blade 1/8th inch wide and cut the rear notch to suit - then you just keep the top of the blade level with the flat top of the rear

Normal barrel sights were made by and for blokes with 20/20 vision and no glasses
I shoot ok with buckhorn sights (or semi buckhorn?) but those shallow curved rears like the winchester one get me every time - vertical dispersion in groups -

[bruce drake]

265864
I went with a Tang Sight for my Win94 when the original sights started getting difficult to clearly see.

[indian joe]

I would suggest a Skinner peep sight. It's what I have on a couple 94's and 86's.
http://www.skinnersights.com/images/Skinner_1894.JPG?730

looks nicer but I'm lazy - its already got the holes tapped for a Williams peep - got one of those on my 71

[gkainz]

Thanks for the feedback, suggestions and ideas for other options.
Outpost75 - great details and thanks for that!

[Outpost75]

Thanks for the feedback, suggestions and ideas for other options.
Outpost75 - great details and thanks for that!

Those instructions are from the late LTC Ellis Lea, USA (Ret.) of the Office of Public Safety for the US State Dept. Agency for International Development, who learned them as a West Virginia State Trooper prior to enlisting in the US Army for WW2.

[Larry Gibson]

Those instructions are from the late LTC Ellis Lea, USA (Ret.) of the Office of Public Safety for the US State Dept. Agency for International Development, who learned them as a West Virginia State Trooper prior to enlisting in the US Army for WW2.

When I joined the Oregon State Police we had M94 30-30s in the Patrol cars in Eastern Oregon. That was the instructions we had for them also. Issue ammo was Winchester 160 gr FMJRN.

[Outpost75]

When I joined the Oregon State Police we had M94 30-30s in the Patrol cars in Eastern Oregon. That was the instructions we had for them also.

Thanks for the independent validation.

[Outpost75]

When I joined the Oregon State Police we had M94 30-30s in the Patrol cars in Eastern Oregon. That was the instructions we had for them also.

Ellis had told me that the instruction originated from the training syllabus developed by the British Royal Navy during the Great War. Model 1894s were standard armament on British submarines and coastal patrol boats. Those training methods proved so successful that they were adopted during WW2 by the Canadian Pacific Coast Rangers and picked up by Winchester for training train and defense plant guards during WW2, as well as by state and local police who bought '94s.

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[gwpercle]

If your eyes are getting older .... just go with a good adjustable receiver (peep) sight like the Williams and get one that puts the peep hole as close to your eye as possible .
A Peep works for us because you look through the hole , not at it , and a smallish size peep hole actually sharpens the front sight and target . Your eye naturally centers itself in the peep hole opening . It takes some practice but you must trust your eye , look through the peep and put the front bead on the target ... with practice you wont even think about the peep hole .
Trust me ...the peep works ...almost as good as a scope .
Get different sized peep holes and try them all ...one will help your shooting .
The only sight easier to use is a red dot sight but those look so out of place on a 94 .
Gary

[pietro]

.

Sight alignment

https://i.postimg.cc/DynCcbd1/Using-the-Peephorn.jpg




Fiber optic sights


https://tpwd.texas.gov/education/hunter-education/online-course/images-firearms/fiberopticsightgroup.png

[KCSO]

A fire sight in front will prove to be a big help. Fire sight and a peep will bring you right back to years ago.

[Win94ae]

My eyes are really bad, which is why the regular sight works the best for me. This is the last shot I took with it...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svMsnzM0QN8

Depending on the light, I might see 7 firesights, usually 3.
The peeps depend on the size as to how many peeps inside the peep I see.
I haven't tried a tang peep, which I assume would work better.

I wish I could use a scope, but the screw holes for mounting one must not have been correct, the screws would never stay tight.

[Eddie Southgate]

I'm good with the factory rear on my 1971 94 but changed to a marbles Ivory bead on the front . That works for me for now but I do have a receiver sight on the way . I have a 1912 94 SRC in .32 spl on the way , should be here by Tuesday , that has the three blade express type rear . Not sure how I will like it but I am gonna give it a shot before I think about changing anything. Kinda surprising how hard an all steel receiver sight for a 94 or 92 is to locate considering the number that have been made over the last 100 or so years . Lots of aluminum base sights but very few steel to be found .

[pietro]

I wish I could use a scope, but the screw holes for mounting one must not have been correct, the screws would never stay tight.


FWIW, I've never had a scope mount screw loosen, after installing them properly.

1) Clean the threads on both the screws and the holes they go into with acetone or lacquer thinner & let air dry.

2) Likewise clean the bottom of the scope bases and the surface they will attach to.

3) Apply a drop or two of blue Loctite (red bottle) to the screw and hole threads, one at a time.

4) Install the screws barely tight through the mount base holes into the gun

5) Once all the screws are in, and the base secured, tighten the screws as tight as you can get them manually.

6) With the gun supported on a solid surface, use a heavy hammer (no love taps, here) and a flat tip drift pin to whack the top of each screw to set the threads.

7) Re-tighten each screw manually (you should be able to get another partial turn of the screws)

8 ) Do the same with the scope ring screws after plumbing the reticle & setting the eye relief

(It's OK to plumb the scope reticle with the ring screws slightly loose, then setting the screws one at a time so as to not lose plumb/eye-relief)


.

[Larry Gibson]

As my eyes continued to go even further south I've had to pretty much give up on the factory sights of my M94 carbine. Even with a Lyman receiver sight with Merit disc by the time i get the iris closed enough to bring the front sight into focus not much light comes through and it's not very fast. On my 24" M94 i can still use the aperture sight well. However, on the Carbine I just went to a "scout scope". Some years back Burris made a 1.5X scout scope and a base that fit on the barrel. I got one and wish I had got more. With the 1.5X scout scope the M94 carbine is as fast to use as it ever was [got it for my 14th birthday]. I really like it.

265990

[missionary5155]

Nice set up Larry !!

All of us have different eyesight at any age. I can still use factory sights at 70.
But I started putting tang sights and receiver sights on our rifles 30 years ago. Much faster for our shooting. And we see little accuracy loss over factory sights if any.

[redhawk0]

FWIW...I use the fiber optic sights like those shown in post #22. I have them on all my lever guns with open sights. I'm in my late 50s and I noticed a huge improvement on target after the switch.

redhawk

[nseries]

As my eyes continued to go even further south I've had to pretty much give up on the factory sights of my M94 carbine. Even with a Lyman receiver sight with Merit disc by the time i get the iris closed enough to bring the front sight into focus not much light comes through and it's not very fast. On my 24" M94 i can still use the aperture sight well. However, on the Carbine I just went to a "scout scope". Some years back Burris made a 1.5X scout scope and a base that fit on the barrel. I got one and wish I had got more. With the 1.5X scout scope the M94 carbine is as fast to use as it ever was [got it for my 14th birthday]. I really like it.

265990

Larry, how does that mount attach? I assume you drill and tap the barrel band?

Thanks

[smkummer]

I thought about changing the sights on my 1960 94 win. but then did not want to change the fast sight picture the buck horns offer. I am not hurting most steel I shoot at with a 170 cast and 1500 FPS. At 59, I am using a 1 powered reader to see the sights and a clear enough target.

[hornady308]

I'm also suffering from old eyes. My solution on a lever action was to use a Skinner dovetail slot scope mount (replaces the rear sight) combined with a micro red-dot (2 moa dot). This combo allows me to shoot respectable groups at a 100 yards with no trouble.

http://www.skinnersights.com/scope_mounts_31.html

[Drm50]

The best group I ever fired offhand with 30/30 was with 150RN SPs that I believe were seconds or bulk. The box they came in was white with black border with OLIN in big bold letters and .30 cal ink stamped on lid. Box was big enough for 250 but only had a bit over 100 in it and I broke the label when I opened. I shot some groups of bench at 100yds that were impressive for a 30/30 lever. I still have the offhand group I shot at 60yds with Lyman 66 reciever sight. It was .85” 5 shot group, shot with Marlin 336, 16” barrel.

[Treetop]

I'm really enjoying this thread! So much good information here. Subscribed! Semper Fi, TreeTop

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, how does that mount attach? I assume you drill and tap the barrel band?

Thanks

There is a "stud" that fits into the rear sight notch that is threaded for a large screw that holds the rear of the base. The "stud" also has a "recoil shoulder" that fits into a slot in the bottom of the base.
The directions say to D&T (6x48) the top of the barrel band for a front screw. I also D&T'd into the barrel 4 threads. It is a very solid lock up and has not shifted zero even after some serious bouncing around in my jeep.

Very unfortunate that Burris discontinued the base some years back.

[oley55]

If your eyes are getting older .... just go with a good adjustable receiver (peep) sight like the Williams and get one that puts the peep hole as close to your eye as possible .
A Peep works for us because you look through the hole , not at it , and a smallish size peep hole actually sharpens the front sight and target . Your eye naturally centers itself in the peep hole opening . It takes some practice but you must trust your eye , look through the peep and put the front bead on the target ... with practice you wont even think about the peep hole .
Trust me ...the peep works ...almost as good as a scope .
Get different sized peep holes and try them all ...one will help your shooting .
The only sight easier to use is a red dot sight but those look so out of place on a 94 .
Gary

Agree^^^. A Tang peep sight is an amazing thing. These Eye-Pal self clinging peep for your eye glasses work too, but difficult to find the perfect sight picture. https://eyepalusa.com/

[FergusonTO35]

My 94's use Lyman 66 or Williams Foolproof rear peeps with 1/16" white bead fronts. My 336's use low power compact scopes.

[Drm50]

When deer hunting I don’t use aperture, just shoot through frame and have Marble Patridge fronts with inlaid gold flat. I carry a Williams Twi-Lite aperture in my watch pocket in case I would get a long stationary shot.