Losing sleep, need an answer...or two.

[Holdmonkey]

Been lurking on the site for a good while now and finally took the plunge. Melted my first batch Sunday and cast from two new molds. Got most of the bugs worked out and cast two batches of fifty in two different calibers that I was pretty happy with. Lubed with liquid Alox Monday evening and attempted to load some (10) cartridges Tuesday evening of only one caliber. Each cartridge, when the boolit was seated and crimped, had a glob or lump of lead in one spot at the crimp edge of the case. Am I wrong in assuming this means I need to run my boolits through a sizer? It's like the seating die forced lead from the boolit over the edge of the case at pressure because of the oversize...I'd appreciate any advice or information y'all have, and also, I looked for a previous post concerning this but didn't find it. If it's a redundancy, I apologize. Thanks, guys.

[sigep1764]

It sounds to me like you are seating and crimping in the same step. Separate these steps, seat the boolit then adjust for crimping. What caliber, what boolit, and what size is the boolit?

[rking22]

What cartridges? What molds, and actual dia? Did you use “m” die or equilivent to flare case mouth.

[Patrick L]

What both of these guys said. Actually, I would place greater emphasis on what rking22 said. Make sure you have enough flare on the case mouth. As for seating and crimping separately, maybe or maybe not. Many calibers I do both in 1 step with no issues. Others I do in separate steps.

Welcome!!

[Boolseye]

From what you’ve said may not be flaring the case mouth sufficiently, and/or lining the bullet up prior to seating. The bullets need to be sized if they are too big to chamber. Sizing also helps with consistency. The case needs to be expanded a couple of thousandths smaller than the bullet, with a flare larger in diameter than bullet. This is probably what’s causing your shaving. A Lyman M-die works well for this-factory expanders from Lee and others are often too small for cast bullet needs. I use a Lyman multi-charge expander (same dimensions as the m-dies). NOE plugs work well. Factory expanders work great for j-words and some cast loads, every caliber’s different. Slugging the barrel has worked fine for me in all my guns. I go .001-.002” over groove diameter, then do what’s necessary to load those slugs without swaging them down or causing chambering issues. Lot of smart people here, stick around.


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[onelight]

Yup what all of the above said . Revolver bullets with a good crimp grove work easily with seating and crimping in the same die . Auto pistol bullets with no crimp grove are more picky about case length and crimp and are much easier to crimp in a separate die , with the bullet moving down at the same time it is being crimped it can get scraped chamfering the inside of the case mouth will help and so will trimming , or sorting cases by length , but simplest is separate crimp. I do prefer now to crimp all of them with a crimp die. And be sure as was mentioned you have enough flare that the case won't scrape while seating and do your best to start the bullet straight .

[468]

Can you post a photo or two?

[725]

As above, a case mouth that doesn't have enough "belling" will shave lead off the bullet going in. Don't need a super wide "flare" or "bell", but enough to allow the bullet to enter. Personally, I seat the bullet in one step and then crimp in a follow-up step.

Welcome aboard. This site is fun and there are a bunch of folks willing to help out & answer all those questions we all had, too, when we started out. Good luck.

[indian joe]

most of the above - bell the case mouth more until the problem goes away .

[smoked turkey]

Holdmonkey: I won't do a repeat of what others have suggested as the above info is all good. I just wanted to say glad you came out of your lurking and decided to join this bunch. Before long you will be enjoying more shooting and saving money in the process. Almost everyone on here will agree that you save money by rolling your own. As your number of molds grow along with your dies, and all the stuff you will need to make this all work, you may question whether you are saving money or not. Just remember to tell yourself "I am saving money by doing this". You may need to tell yourself this a few times before it takes hold. One other thing is for sure. That is you will be having a ball doing it. Welcome to the best place on the interweb, right here.

[44Blam]

It is either not enough bell for the boolit or your seating die is set to crimp too much.
It is tricky to get your seating die to not crimp but just smooth out the case. Then crimp in a seperate step.
When I setup a new die, I watch for these things and just ajust things. Usually after a boolit or two, I have it.

I do have to state - you do "save money" but you end up shooting more... So... Honestly, I save a TON of money. I reload 45-70 for about 30 cents per where I could buy one for $2. But I've never bought one and I have shot thousands of 45s... So I have basically saved infinately... :-o

EDIT:
If you haven't sized your boolits... There is a whole new thing to learn. First, slug your barrel to find the dimensions of the lands and the groves. Then size to about 2 thousandths bigger than that. Ex, I have a new barrel that slugs at .355. I size to .357. Perfect with no leading and good accuracy.

[Wayne Smith]

Have you a micrometer? Do you know how to use it? If not get one and learn. It is an essential tool to answer the question you are asking. Measure your boolits to answer the question. 1) do I need to size? 2) do I need to expand cartridge mouths? 3) do I need to seat and crimp in two steps?

Without facts we can't answer any better than you can. With facts you can probably tell us the answer.

[1hole]

That clump of lead you're seeing at the case mouth is obviously being shaved from one side of the bullet during seating; the cure is to bell/flair the case mouth enough to actually let the bullet base set fully inside the mouth before seating. It also helps - a LOT - if you've chamfered the inside of the case to remove the sharp corner at the mouth. (Chamfering/deburring only needs to be done once.)

For crimping, IF you're seating so the bullets crimp groove is at the forward edge of the case mouth it won't make much difference, if any, if you seat and crimp separately.

A lot, maybe most, cartridges don't need crimping at all, just touching the crimp ring enough to remove the bell/flair so the finished cartridge will chamber easily is usually plenty. Normally, only hot loaded cartridges with heavy-for-caliber bullets that will be subjected to heavy recoil forces (that usually means big revolver cartridges) actually need to be crimped!

Lyman's M expander dies are great tools, especially for cast, and I have one for most of my cartridges, but they're obviously not required to make good ammo; a lot of people make good ammo without one. BUT, the M die does make it faster and easier to get case expanding/flairing right for proper seating of both cast AND jacketed bullets.

Bottom line, get your case chamfering and belling right and the shaving will go away. (BT, DT)

[sutherpride59]

Oh boy did you ever open a can of worms lol, welcome to the sight buddy. Post pics if you can, it will make diagnosing the problem much easier, everyone covered what I would have told you already.

[mdi]

Welcome! It is pretty difficult to shove a .431" slug into a .429" tube without some sort of entry way. So, your cases need to have the mouths flared, because what you are seeing sounds like you are "shaving the OD" of the bullet; sharp edge of the case mouth is smaller than the bullet. When I started reloading cast bullets it was before I had the blessing of internet wisdom so I used the flaring tool from my Lee Loader. Worked well. I also made tapering tools (cut a 60 degree taper on a brass rod and tapped the rod into the case mouth). Anything tapered that will swell the mouth will work, even tried a 30-06 case shoved into a 38 Special case. It worked.

Some will tell you to use as little flare as you can get by with to extend case life as much as possible, but I tell newer reloaders to use as much flare as necessary to get good shooting handloads now and worry about case life later. Unless you are using some pretty expensive brass or obsolete cartridges or hard to find brass, cases are fairly easy to find and inexpensive so use as much flare as needed. (How many more reloadings will you get out of a case with min flare over a case with max flare? 5? 8?) Because the flare is removed in the crimping step, "too much" flare is when the case doesn't enter the seating die easily. Some will only use an M die, and I have 2, but with normal cast bullets a flare big enough to prevent shaving is all that is necessary.

K.I.S.S.

[Billwnr]

As others stated above, an M die is needed to flare the case mouth for your cast. Good luck with your progression/obsession, whatever shooting cast bullets is called.

[Conditor22]

more information is needed and pictures are helpful

your brass is shaving lead as you seat your boolit: [1] you boolit is too big [2] the case mouth isn't flared enough [3] both

It is helpful to know what mold, caliber, firearm you a loading for for some have their own specific problems

[onelight]

As others stated above, an M die is needed to flare the case mouth for your cast. Good luck with your progression/obsession, whatever shooting cast bullets is called.
Been loading cast 54 years have never had an m die they may be good but are certainly not required.

[gwpercle]

Welcome from Baton Rouge Louisiana !

Easy answer :
Seat all boolits in one operation ...no crimp , just seat.
Crimp all the boolits in a second , separate step ... re setting the die is a pain but with lead boolits it is worth it ...get a second seat/crimp die and you wont have to keep adjusting the one die.
It does produce better ammo and is worth doing .
What happened was the case mouth started to close (crimp) on the boolit as it was still moving down (seating) into the case and caught a little of the boolit edge ... It Happens . Flaring the case mouths also helps seating the boolits without grabbing as does making sure the soft boolits are NOT leaning but straigh up and down...a leaning boolit will also dig its side into the case neck .
Gary

[Dusty Bannister]

Maybe in a couple of hours the OP will let us know what type of case is involved. If straight wall, it does not need an M die, if bottle neck, an M die is very helpful. Sort of smells like burned rubber from spinning of wheels?

[Holdmonkey]

Good evening, Gentlemen. Sorry to take so long to get back to y'all. I had read a bunch of your answers late this afternoon, and they made excellent sense! The main reason being, I have never used cast bullets thaat I loaded, and in my short reloading career (less than two years) I have never had a need to flare my cases. Everything just fit... But yes, I got home and did NOT have a Lyman "M" die, nor even a Lee Universal Neck Expanding die. But what I DID have was the memory of reading someone say he had used something with a taper and a smack with his hand. So when I got home from work, I took all those cases and a brass plumb bob and a rubber mallet, just a light smack put the cutest little flare on each one and I loaded the remainder of my cast bullets with nary a single problem. Thank you very much, Gentlemen, for your time, your knowledge, your expertise, and above all, for helping a newb when you all probably had things you'd rather be doing. For what it's worth, the bullet in question was for a .45 Colt, a Lee #90359 (dual-cavity, C452-300-RF) mold. But, for the record, I also cast some 405 grain flat nosed bullets for my .45-70 Government, none of which had flared case mouths, either. Now they do. I will be investing in the Lyman "M" dies for both calibers directly. Like Mr. Spock says, it's only all logical and stuff!

[Conditor22]

brass plumb-bob :lol:[smilie=w: new one to me but I LIKE IT. neccesity is the mother of invention

[rking22]

Reason n I said, something similar. I have used an 8mm pull down fmj “back in the day”. Necessity is the mother of invention. Glad you got it going, and welcome aboard!

[mdi]

If I had to use "dedicated reloading tools" only I might have gone without or in worst case scenario, not reloaded. Been a machinist/mechanic for a very long time and I have 40+ years of tools accumulated and don't remember how many of my tools, not dedicated reloading tools, I've used in the past. I think my first was a plastic mallet I used for tapping bearings in place, and when I first ran into primer crimps I got a countersink out of my tool box. One item I used early in my lead shooting to flare cases was a cold chisel head, the tapered end....

[Cherokee]

To the OP, welcome and keep coming back.

[Hanzy4200]

Just to throw my quip in with the rest. Be sure you are flaring your case mouths adequately. Yes, you should be sizing. Don't use a very tight crimp. Just enough to take the flare off. Welcome to the forum!

[Wayne Smith]

Glad you found a fix. Yes make do works, and for a revolver maybe that's all you will need. Once you get into longer ranges precision matters.

[dverna]

BTW, no need to seat and crimp in two separate operations. It is easier to set up the dies and do it in separate operations but many old timers loaded millions of rounds on Stars that used one die for both functions. Also, on some progressives, seating and crimping on one station allows freeing up a station to add a powder check die.

There are people that have trouble setting up a seat/crimp die but once you learn it is not a big deal.

Like your plumb bob solution BTW. If speed is not an issue it will work just fine. If you do not want to invest in a flaring die, another option is to set up a short tapered shaft on a drill press...set the depth of throw...and go at it. Pretty easy to form the profile you need with the drill press running and a file.