Good results with 4FG in 44-40?

[Bouteselle]

Howdy folks,
I'm about to reload rounds for my last purchased Uberti 73 rifle. I'd prefer N°2 (3FG), but I'm broke, and I don't have any left, wherehas I have 4 pounds of 4FG in my jumble... what kind of results did you have with such thin powder?
I have already tryed once out of curiosity in 45-70, I remember not being happy with it.

[Outpost75]

2Fg will work as long as you fill the case, settle the charge for maximum powder capacity and obtain at least 3mm of powder compression with the bullet seated.

[Edward]

2Fg will work as long as you fill the case, settle the charge for maximum powder capacity and obtain at least 3mm of powder compression with the bullet seated.

I believe OP stated 4FG not 2FG which does sound way different

[Outpost75]

I believe OP stated 4FG not 2FG which does sound way different

OOPS! Thanks for the correction. 4Fg is not ideal, but will "work," loosely filling the case, without compression.

[Larry Gibson]

Don't know about 4Fg in the 44-40 but I have tested GOEX 4FG in the 45 Colt.

Under a 255 gr 454190 in W-W cases with WLP primers 34.5 gr of GOEX 4Fg produced 12,100 psi. Using 35 gr GOEC Cartridge under the same bullet gave 13,500 psi. Pressure was measured in a Contender barrel via the Oehler m43 PBL.

[Bouteselle]

So I'll give it a try.
By the way, I've opened antique pistol cartridges, and they were loaded with very thin powder, like flintlock priming powder, near dust.

[rancher1913]

those antique cartridges probably were not "dust" when loaded, years of bumping around and age made the difference.

[Washington1331]

Everything that I’ve ever read on 4FG powder is that it is only to be used as priming powder for flintlocks. From my experience it is a drastic speed difference from 2FG or 3FG. I would not want to see the potential results of if the charge was contained inside of a brass case.

Could you use small charges of 4FG in an emergency, yes. Would I do it in any other situation? Nope, not without a manufacturer’s recommendation.

The risk is not worth it IMHO. Best of luck to you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bedbugbilly]

I'm not a 44-40 loader or shooter but I have been using BP for over half a century. I am in agreement with Washington3311 - 4F should be reserved for priming flintlocks.

A short time ago I read a post on another forum where a gentleman decided to use 4F in his 44 cap and ball revolver. He touted somewhat about how well it had worked but that the recoil, etc. were rather stiff like a magnum load . . . but he was going to do it again.

Just because you "can" do something doesn't mean it is a good idea. I'm sure that at some time we all have run out of 3F and substituted 2F or run out of 2F and substituted 3F - but in my limited experience in loading 38 Colt Short, Long, 38 Special and 45 Schofield and 45 Colt, IF I were forced to having to use 4F, I would be adjusting the load and using a filler.

Overcautious? Maybe . . . but I doubt very much that the powder manufactures would go along with substituting 4F in place of 2F or 3F.

It kind of reminds me of those that shoot stronger loads in brass frame cap and ball revolvers and then can't figure out why their cylinder pin loosens up and the recoil shield gets all battered up . . then the revolver goes out of time because of the wear. As I replied to the gentleman who thought it was fine to use 4F in his cap and ball revolver . . . steel frame or not, the higher recoil of the 4F is slamming the cylinder harder into the recoil shield with "steel on steel".

A 1873 is ot a cap and ball revolver - and maybe with the action locked it will take a 4F charge . . . that's something that the owner of the rifle will have to decide for himself but keep in mind that whether the 4F charge is in the breech of a muzzleloading rifle or within a cartridge case with the breech of a rifle . . . it's still not an accepted practice and I doubt that any firearm manufacturer would honor a warranty for not using what they and the powder manufacturer recommends.

[Bouteselle]

Gentlemen,
I asked you this question in order to save my time, my gasoline and my money, as I don't have much to spend... Just to know if 4F works on target in 44-40 rifle.
That being said, I think you're a bit severe with 4F swiss black powder, I believe my 1873 rifle won't blow up with 30 grains loads.
I used 4F swiss black powder at moderate charges during twenty years in my muzzleloading pistol, and cap and ball revolver... and with first class results, as I won several international championships. So IMO it would be a pity to only use it as a priming charge for flintlocks.

[Edward]

Gentlemen,
I asked you this question in order to save my time, my gasoline and my money, as I don't have much to spend... Just to know if 4F works on target in 44-40 rifle.
That being said, I think you're a bit severe with 4F swiss black powder, I believe my 1873 rifle won't blow up with 30 grains loads.
I used 4F swiss black powder at moderate charges during twenty years in my muzzleloading pistol, and cap and ball revolver... and with first class results, as I won several international championships. So IMO it would be a pity to only use it as a priming charge for flintlocks. Sounds like you know best ,but you did ask ! Ed

[Bouteselle]

Loud and clear. I'll don't ask anything anymore.

[chuck40219]

Maybe op is asking if 4 f would work, but if I believe the Swiss powder in Europe is graded the opposite than here in the US. He may be asking if 2f in his 1873 rifle would work. Let's see if he is really talking about 2f US graded powder. Ramble on.

Chuck40219

[indian joe]

Loud and clear. I'll don't ask anything anymore.

You had a couple of good replys from Outpost75 and Larry Gibson (blokes that know blackpowder from the tone their replys over the last couple years I have been on here) .....I posted one myself but think it was moderated off....

" have used FFFFg quite successfully in 357magnum and 32/20 cases - maybe it would generate a little higher peak pressure but cant see how you would get dangerous pressures in a modern made gun (Uberti) "....

Also if you have Swiss powder ---the FFFFg Swiss granulation is much larger (.25 to .5mm) than US shooters are used to - The Swiss loading chart I saw lists FFFFg as "muzzleloader handgun"

There are a few super duper cautious guys on here - hang around for a while you will figure out who to listen to and who to ignore

[Outpost75]

Given the finer particle size of 4Fg compared to larger granulation, a greater percentage by weight is composed of graphite, and while the burning rate is faster, the total energy produced in ft.-lbs. per grain is less. Larry's pressure test in .45 Colt should compare fairly closely to what you could reasonably expect with 200-grain bullets in the .44-40, I doubt that you'd exceed 13,000 psi unless the powder charge were heavily compressed above 110% of its bulk density. Even so, that would be OK in a modern, heat-treated reproduction which is proofed to modern CIP standards, but if I had an original black powder frame Colt worth several thousands of dollars more I would be prudent and treat it gently.

[Larry Gibson]

"Everything that I’ve ever read on 4FG powder is that it is only to be used as priming powder for flintlocks."

That certainly is the myth.....

However, considering the smaller revolver cartridges 22 through 32 RF and CF were loaded with 4Fg BP by the manufacturers and that 4 FG is commonly used in 31 through 44 cap and ball revolvers [Don't think so? Look in Lyman's Black Powder handbook which is full of such loads]. I've pulled apart several 44 RF cartridges and a couple old 44-40 and 45 Colt cartridges and the granulation of the BP was very close to 4Fg. Pressure testing the 45 Colt has demonstrated the safety of such along with testing 10 gr of 4Fg under a 90 gr cast bullet in the 32 S&WL which duplicates old original BP loads.

Now, I', not saying 4Fg should be used in all BP cartridges but obviously it was commonly used in days gone by in those cartridges and cap & ball revolvers before before the advent of the above myth..... Actually the myth might be correct for use in muzzle loading rifles and muskets and, perhaps in larger BP cartridges. I've contemplated testing 4Fg in the 45-70 as my pressure test 45-70 is built on a Mauser action. Just to many other irons in the fire .......

[Larry Gibson]

Bouteselle

Assuming you're going to test some please report back you rresults?

[StrawHat]

I have used 4f in 22 Hornet and 32-20. Been shooting flintlocks for about 1/2 a century and never used 4f to prime. Used whatever was in the horn or flask or cartridge.

Kevin

[Chill Wills]

"Everything that I’ve ever read on 4FG powder is that it is only to be used as priming powder for flintlocks."
That certainly is the myth.....
However, considering the smaller revolver cartridges 22 through 32 RF and CF were loaded with 4Fg BP by the manufacturers and that 4 FG is commonly used in 31 through 44 cap and ball revolvers [Don't think so? Look in Lyman's Black Powder handbook which is full of such loads].
From the Lyman BP loading manual.

[Ozark mike]

Look up hazzard cartridge company 4fg was used in c&b revolvers around the time the war of northern aggression was goin on

[sharps4590]

Don't know about 4Fg in the 44-40 but I have tested GOEX 4FG in the 45 Colt.

Under a 255 gr 454190 in W-W cases with WLP primers 34.5 gr of GOEX 4Fg produced 12,100 psi. Using 35 gr GOEC Cartridge under the same bullet gave 13,500 psi. Pressure was measured in a Contender barrel via the Oehler m43 PBL.

This is the evidence that is most convincing. I have to admit I am surprised by the numbers. That and that Lyman has recommended Ffffg loads listed and the certain knowledge that Ffffg was use in "the old days".

Given the anemic velocity of the 1849 Colt I have often considered trying a dose of Ffffg. It appears I would be loading it as was already done well over a century ago.

[indian joe]

Guys ----something to consider -- the normal grinding and screening of blackpowder produces a lot of "fines" (FFFFG size and through to mill dust) --- use it--- OR put it back through the works ? Anyone thats used FFFFg priming a flintlock gets how long a pound can will last ----- I bet the powder companies went to a deal of trouble testing to find an appropriate home for the fine end of their powder grades rather than reprocess it. Larry's pressure comparison figures surprise me, there was another post suggesting that the higher graphite % might account for that - kinda makes sense. I have shot ungraphited powder for most of the last 25years - I have a chrono but no way of pressure testing. Also dont forget the OP referenced Swiss in his original enquiry, their FFFFg doesnt grade as fine as Goex or others - I really cant see a problem here in a modern rifle.
Elmer Keith supposedly blew a colt up using FFFFg but he had a 45/70 slug in it - proly was a case of when not if young Elmer blew somethin up.

[bigted]

These old wives tales are sure hard to put to rest. Amazing how someone writing a "theory" and sounding kinda smart on paper can begin a trend that suddenly become an absolute.

Until Larry TESTED for sure pressures in actual pressure vessels with real science and repeatable proofs ... this is the first time I personally have ever heard of an actual for real TEST using 4F powder to find truth about how dangerous it really is!

If I may be so bold Larry ... to repeat your findings ... the 4F loads compare pressure to be actually LESS then with 2F or 3F powder of the same charge or slightly more.

As to the OP ... do it. Load your cases with 4F powder and test accuracy to determine ... at least in your rifle ... how well it groups AND what helps it group the best such as grease cookie, different wads, mag primers v regular, no wads nor cookie and different boolits kind of experiments.

Is it safe??? I am convinced that 4F powder is just as safe as 1F. I am under the impression that a black powder is a safe powder in any firearm that is deemed safe for ANY factory style loadings and certainly ANY black powder loads you wish to try.

Now having said this ... my 45 120 ... 3 1/4 inch Shiloh 74 Sharps was a handful with 135 grains 3F GOEX under a 650 grain paper patched slick boolit sparked with CCI regular primers that I was very happy to be done shooting 5 of. To say uncomfortable is a giant understatement. Hummer kicked the living snot outta me ... but the cases showed NO over pressure signs what so ever ... my shoulder however exhibited very clear signs of OVER KICKING!

[Larry Gibson]

No problem bigted. Just a note though; the 3Fg load did contain 1/2 gr more powder. Would have to re-test with equal charges with several of each but past experience tells me the resulting psi's would be very similar.....probably any variance falling within test to test variation.