30 cal 175gr @ 1700 FPS enough for white tails?

[0802]

Is a 30 cal 175gr boolit @ 1700 FPS enough for white tails?

Background— my 12 year old daughter is wanting to hunt deer for the first time in the upcoming youth season. I don’t have a youth rifle per se or a caliber that I see recommended often (243, 7mm-08,etc.).

My daughter is 12, about 5’7 and average build. No real experience with rifles, but she has shot some. She’s smart and interested.

What I do have is a good load in my Ruger 30-06 M77– it will put the Lee 309 170 in a 2 in circle at 100 yards all day long. It recoils mildly and is a pleasure to shoot. I chronographed this load and it’s a little over 1700 FPS. These are actual weight of about 175 gr and are pure WW, water cooled.

I think this is enough boolit / velocity to take a whitetail, but don’t have much experience with it on game (but I have shot a lot of paper with this).

Obviously I want her to have a great experience and take a deer quickly and humanely, but I have to balance that her being able to practice and being comfortable with the rifle / load.

I think we’ll be able to get a shot 50 yards or less based on my experience in this spot.

We’ve got plenty of opportunity for her to practice with this before the season. And I know shot placement is everything...

Thoughts?


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[jreidthompson1]

For comparison. The original 30 WCF (30-30) load pushed a 160-grain bullet 1,970 fps. So at reasonable range and with proper bullet placement I would expect it to be fine

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[rking22]

Yes. That is very near what I have used for several whitetail in my 30Remington. 31141 96/2/2 at 1730 was my load, the 170lee is close. Only thought is I would air cool the hunting bullets, quenched for practice is fine. Maine thing is you need to get her close, 50 sounds like a good max. Even if she can pop coke cans at 300 and clover leafs at 100! Shooting her first deer needs to be close. I fought a half scale printed deer target, picture of the whole deer for archery. Glue it to a cardboard, do not put an aiming point. The ability to judge where the heart and lungs are, at different angles, without a “mark” is what you want to teach. Live deer don’t have orange stickers and there is no lead sled in the woods. Practice on this with a 22 is fine, but go to the 06 before season. Good luck and make good memories.

[RickinTN]

I agree on air cooling the bullets for hunting but everything else sounds fine. She is a tall 12 year old. Probably no need for a youth stock for her.
Good Luck and Good Hunting to her,
Rick

[bmortell]

ive shot a deer lengthwise 80yds ish with the same lee 170 at 1700, ~2% antimony and tin, air cooled. and recovered with minimal expansion. nose blunted to about 40 cal. it didnt go far because it broke the thigh bone at the end of wound path. if that was what i used again id make it soft as possible. like paper patched pure lead or 2 alloy soft point type casting for a bit better results.

[John McCorkle]

ive shot a deer lengthwise 80yds ish with the same lee 170 at 1700, ~2% antimony and tin, air cooled. and recovered with minimal expansion. nose blunted to about 40 cal. it didnt go far because it broke the thigh bone at the end of wound path. if that was what i used again id make it soft as possible. like paper patched pure lead or 2 alloy soft point type casting for a bit better results.What powder/cartridge were you using to get there?

I'm thinking of paper patching a ranch dog in pure plus a touch of tin about the same velocity with 2400 powder and an '06

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[bmortell]

What powder/cartridge were you using to get there?

I'm thinking of paper patching a ranch dog in pure plus a touch of tin about the same velocity with 2400 powder and an '06


same stuff. 30-06 20gr 2400. might of been closer to 1800mv but my shot was near 100yds so kinda balances out to match the OP. but ya i think rifle calibers like this with impact velocitys 15-1600 can use very soft lead for broadside deers. 10 hardness is too much imo. it seemed good in my water testing but not on actual results.

[richhodg66]

I'd go with a much softer, more malleable alloy than water quenched wheel weights, that sounds like a pencil entry and exit and long tracking job to me.

If she is well enough practiced to place shots accurately, it should work just fine.

[Tripplebeards]

Your velocity is plenty but imo you alloy to hard. Here’s a good read for you on my first three deer with imo to hard of alloy. Your alloy choice will be like shooting a deer with a FMJ or an arrow with a field point. Long frustrating tracking and zero blood trails will be in your future with WQ COWW alloy unless a head, neck, or backbone shot it taken...and I’m not a big fan of these shots being I’ve seen a lot of wounded deer running around with poor shot placements aiming for these areas. You alloy choice would be good for braining elephants.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?373867-First-deer(s)-with-cast-boolits!-Used-my-devastators!!!

I would suggest 16:1 pewter and pure and a second choice of 50/50 AC COWW and pure lead. My 16:1 mix is 7.8 BH and my 50/50 mix is 10.4 BH. Use the softest alloy your gun will shoot accurately. They way you will get some expansion for good size entry and exit holes for blood trailing.

Here’s a 263 grain, 16:1 hollow point I shot out of my 77/44 at 1600 FPS. I found it next to a rock buried in my my dirt back stop at 25 yards. It weighed 174 grains and expanded to 3/4”. It still weighed after expansion almost as much as my favorite jacked deer bullet after expansion...180 grain core loct out of my 30-06. I’m sure a deer’s shoulder bone and ribs are softer then my dirt back stop or the rock it stoped on so I’m guessing more weight retention and less expansion when shooting thin skinned game with this soft 7.8 BH alloy at 1600 FPS. Also take into consideration your using a solid cast boolit VS my hollow point so you’ll will probably have less expansion then I did with my soft alloy.

https://i.imgur.com/Fll6sZl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UYONUUm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MyPlJHP.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vYFIXGm.jpg

[Markopolo]

soft lead boolit is a devastating round.... deer are easy to kill... i only use something harder when shootin at bear...

[725]

rkinig22 said it all. Softer - air cold - boolit and realistic targets. Spend lots of time at the range and build her confidence. Shot placement is absolute in the question of humane hunting. Good on you for bringing your daughter into ethical hunting. Your load is more than adequate. Bigger - better - faster isn't always the answer.

[missionary5155]

I hope no one I know is ever thwaped with a soft cast caliber .30 slug chugging along at 1700 fps. That is near 40% more zap than the 30-30 loaded with BP could think about doing and it did (still does) alot !!!

[444ttd]

my 30-40 krag does a 165gr(173gr on scale) ranch dog with h4198 going 1930fps. it is a 10 lead to 1 tin or 12bhn+/-. my son has shot a doe with it at 173 yards(laser range finder thingy) and i have shot a doe at 150+/-yards. we have killed 9 or 10 deer under 50 yards. they are all drop right there(drt). even the "long range" deer.

btw, my youngest brother's girlfriend(guessing she weighs 110lbs) luvs to shoot my 444 marlin(300gr fn gc going 1600+fps) and my 35/30-30(200gr fn gc going 1700fps+). the best thing for recoil is take them to a bench, load up the gun with "recoilless" ammo and let her fly. the first shot you don't count. she be doing the "holding on gun, closing her eyes, praying to God that it doesn't hurt" and more. by round 5, she be smiling and says "can i shoot some more?"

[dverna]

If you decide to change the alloy, verify the load is still accurate and shoots to the same POA. It may not matter at 50 yards but why have that doubt.

Another option is to buy some 125 gr jacketed bullets made for hunting with the .300 BO and run them at 2000-2200 FPS. For $25 you will have a dependable and accurate bullet. I bet you will have a good load after testing less than 10 5 shot groups and still have half a box of bullets left.

Wounding an animal is never good. Your current alloy seems too hard IMHO. Your daughters first deer should not be the picture of a deer gasping for life as you walk up. Consider waiting 20 minutes to approach the downed deer....but you likely know that.

[John McCorkle]

If you decide to change the alloy, verify the load is still accurate and shoots to the same POA. It may not matter at 50 yards but why have that doubt.

Another option is to buy some 125 gr jacketed bullets made for hunting with the .300 BO and run them at 2000-2200 FPS. For $25 you will have a dependable and accurate bullet. I bet you will have a good load after testing less than 10 5 shot groups and still have half a box of bullets left.

Wounding an animal is never good. Your current alloy seems too hard IMHO. Your daughters first deer should not be the picture of a deer gasping for life as you walk up. Consider waiting 20 minutes to approach the downed deer....but you likely know that.Agreed with above, I caught the Hornady gmx 110 grains on sale and use them for hunting whitetail exclusively.. they perform excellently in 300 BLK. Dead nuts accurate and beautiful expansion and penetration.

Discreet ballistics and their supersonic division 'hotline munitions' is delivering some fantastic solid expanders for 300blk too...check them out. Only subsonic expander I would recommend for deer in 300 BLK.

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[Texas by God]

I shot a cull buck at 40-50 yards with a Lee 150gr flat nose at circa 1800 fps.(30-30)Just air cooled wheel weight alloy. Through both shoulders and DRT. I'm sure the meplat helped. I've since developed loads with softer alloy for all my CB guns. Deer aren't hard to kill if you hit them right the first time with whatever you are using. And Close range makes it way more exciting.

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[popper]

Softest alloy with accuracy at fps you want.

[Little Big Oz]

I took a deer two years ago with the 170 gr Lee and 20.0 gr AA#9, running about 1800fps. Rifle was a Ruger #3 in 30-40 Krag. Range was short, only about 30 yards, but the shot was a clean pass through behind both shoulders. Alloy was 96-2-2, air-cooled. I've tested this load in water jugs and got a beautiful mushroom. Bullet stopped in the 5th jug. I think you'll be fine if you'll just change to a softer alloy.

[brewer12345]

Soften the allloy and a meplat would be great, but the basics of 170 grains at 1700 fps will do the deed at 50 yards. A couple years ago I took a mulie doe at 85 yards with a 195 grain 3006 round doing maybe 1900 at the muzzle. The air cooled coww alloy may have been a bit hard for it, but with a big meplat I got lots of damage, quartering pass through, and no tracking.

[JDL]

Way back in the last century, about 1976 IIRC, I got to hankering to hunt with cast. I had a .300 Savage 99 and a buddy had a Lyman 311466 mold that he loaned me so I could make up some loads. I found one that grouped ok using IMR-4227 and because of the round nose and hardness, I made a small hollow point for the ones to hunt. I shot my first buck at under 50 yards which traveled only 25-30 yards before going down and the next at very close to 200 yards on a pipeline ROW. That one stumbled and trotted across the ROW and was found just barely out of the clearing. Both deer had complete penetration but, I found the gas check at the exit of the one on the pipeline.
Enough of the background and on with the subject at hand. I found some of that ammo 15 years ago and ran them over my chrono. The results was 1724 fps. So yes a muzzle velocity of 1700 fps will kill deer however, the bullet I was using was too hard and without a meplate and I shouldn't have used it. But, I was in the learning stage and had no source to seek help except an article in American Rifleman and a couple of friends who had never hunted with cast. Good hunting to you.

[popper]

Or the 150gr Gold Dot for BO, expansion @ 1400 fps. Almost a HP vld nose so BC is way up there.

[glaciers]

I have older COWW, maybe 30 - 40 years old. Made up some test loads couple months ago, BHN 12-13. Finally got around to testing these loads in my 303 Savage and had some good results, but also so head scratchers. So one thing I checked was the hardness of the alloy as it had been about two months between casting, loading and testing. The alloy had age hardened to between 18-22. So I water quenching would have put these way up there on the hardness scale.
I'm going to mix this old batch of wheel weights about 50/50 with pure, should get me around 9.5 hardness. I suspect they will still age harden some, but hopefully not beyond 12 or so.

[Ramjet-SS]

I just did test for a 170 grain FP cast a #2 alloy equivalent from the 30-30 running around 1900 FPS tremendous disruption of the wet news print equivalent to the 170 grain jacketed load. Penetration was just under 19” the recovered boolit weighed 100 grains drove straight and comparatively speaking is every bit as good as the jacketed in that media.

[pls1911]

A very similar load dropss a 250 pound hog in its tracks and 75 yards, so it your load will be more than sufficient with proper bullet placement.
My preferred placement is through the shoulders at a level to also take out the spine. you can be off a bit in any directions and still drop em in their tracks.

[DougGuy]

The load is great. The alloy, is too hard, you will get a 30 caliber pass thru with little or no expansion. Like you say you have time to develop and practice, I would see how soft you can go and still stay in 2" @100yds. That's not asking the impossible out of that rifle by any means. If you can get it to scratch with a thumbnail soft, try that first. This would be 50/50+2% air cooled. I have yet to see a scenario where this alloy doesn't work for a hunting boolit. I'm not sure how or even if you could cause it to fail.

As always, shot placement is KEY. For whitetail with a rifle, I aim for the heart shot regardless.

[HCH]

Make the boolits soft and it'll work fine I'd imagine. I've shot deer with the same alloy you're using out of a 30-30, and it wasn't great.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I use 17 gr. of 2400 in my .308 rifles with gas checked boolits. Was using Lyman #2 alloy and 45/45/10 lube with great results. I will certainly try a softer and less expensive alloy as Doug has suggested. Most of us start out casting making boolits harder than they need to be. Good luck in the deer woods!

[Larry Gibson]

White tail deer come in various sizes across the continent. From the small diminutive deer of the east coastal plains to the real bruisers of the Midwest and Canada. Having shot Texas white tails "Texas style" with cast bullets I'd venture the OPs load for his daughter to use is fine. However, out west where the ranges can be longer (we don't use feeders to get them close) or where the run 200+ lbs a bit more velocity is beneficial. As mentioned, bullet placement is critical. I wouldn't use a "behind the shoulder" shot however and would not expect a DRT result with that load. I'd have her put the bullet through the heart (it lays low between the legs against the brisquet regardless of the angle of shot. That will break down at least one leg (except for frontal and Texas heart shots) and cause the most damage to major blood veins and arteries. A shot there with that load will put the deer down in short order.

Good luck to her and congrats to you for taking her.

[Goofy]

I have a preference for soft alloy though I've ventured into the hard metal a few times. First time I cast was for a BP target gun, a muzzle loader....pure lead. I've toughened up a little over time, but still use pure lead from time to time. First time paper patching was for a 77/44 with a 300 gr bullet.
https://i.imgur.com/a2DR8es.jpg

They run in the 1,600 fps realm
https://i.imgur.com/tT1tiIN.jpg

80 yds out stood a big doe. Broke both forelegs, 5 ribs and cut the heart in half.
https://i.imgur.com/RENinxM.jpg

[centershot]

Very nice work Goofy!