Lee Collet Factory Crimp Die and 44-40

[prs]

I just posted a plea for help regrading this die with 44-40 rounds in the "Reloading Equipment" section of the forum. Since there may be more 44 WCF experience in this area than there, I am posting this notice. Beginning to wish I had spend my money on a Profile Crimp Die instead.

prs

[Savvy Jack]

"Pinching" is somewhat normal BUT the Lee die is a bit harsh. I think it was 1980's factory loads used such a design crimp and I have hated them ever since. And hated the LFCD too. I switched to the Redding Profile die a while back and never looked back.

The permanent "ring" will not go away and the "bumps" should be okay unless you use full power loads....then they may split.

Here is a bit of reading: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/redding-profile-crimp-die

There is really no way to avoid the Lee Bumps. They are worse if you use .429-.430 bullets.

[Outpost75]

In my experience the Lee Factory Crimp Die in .44-40 reduces bullet diameter inside Starline brass to .428", which is too small for best results in modern rifles and revolvers produced to .44 Magnum barrel dimensions. The Lee die works best in .44-40 firearms which require use of smaller bullet diameters.

My Redding Profile Crimp die reduces bullet diameter when using Starline brass to .4305", in W-W cases to .431" and in old Rem-UMC balloon-head cases to .432", much better for modern .44-40 firearms.

[Savvy Jack]

In my experience the Lee Factory Crimp Die in .44-40 reduces bullet diameter inside Starline brass to .428", which is too small for best results in modern rifles and revolvers produced to .44 Magnum barrel dimensions. The Lee die works best in .44-40 firearms which require use of smaller bullet diameters.

My Redding Profile Crimp die reduces bullet diameter when using Starline brass to .4305", in W-W cases to .431" and in old Rem-UMC balloon-head cases to .432", much better for modern .44-40 firearms.

Excellent explanation Outpost75, thanks!!

[Savvy Jack]

265551 This is a Winchester cartridge from a 1980's Orange and red banner ammo box. Notice them crimp looks almost identical to the LFCD. Just where the lighted area is on the crimp you will notice a "bump" as if (maybe they did) use a collet type crimp tool.


265552 This is a crimp from a Redding Profile die on both a lead bullet (.428") without a crimp groove and a Winchester JSP bullet (.4255") with a cannular crimp groove.


265553 Cartridge where an LFCD was used on a .427" bullet which had also been used many time previously. Eventually the case mouth split at the damaged "bump" area


265554 Here is a cartridge were a non-44/40 profile bullet was used. It is a 44-40 diameter and a popular 44-40 bullet but NOT a 44-40 profile bullet. It can be seen why a Redding Profile crimp die can not be used.


https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading

[prs]

Savvy Jack and Outpost75; I thank you both very kindly. I sent an inquiry to Lee and promptly received a reply. The reply basically said that this is just how it is. My bullets were initially sized .429" and more recently I went to .430". The '92 rifle is shooting very well off hand with no leading. I will check form and function of some other crimp dies I have next rainy day.

prs

[Savvy Jack]

Savvy Jack and Outpost75; I thank you both very kindly. I sent an inquiry to Lee and promptly received a reply. The reply basically said that this is just how it is. My bullets were initially sized .429" and more recently I went to .430". The '92 rifle is shooting very well off hand with no leading. I will check form and function of some other crimp dies I have next rainy day.

prs

Hope it works out for ya, gotta love the 44-40!

[popper]

Lots of factory ammo is 'collet' crimped but unlike the Lee, they just press inward. The Lee uses downward force and lateral. When the Lee pushes the mouth into the crimp groove, what you call bumps are actually NOT indented and yes, stress the brass to eventual failure/splitting. The groove causes the failure, not the FCD.

[Savvy Jack]

The groove causes the failure, not the FCD.

In all fairness, true!

The LFCD is not really used correctly by most handloaders. Lee fails to inform the proper use, intended bullet diameter & design, etc.....but it "works good enough" by most that don't really know any better.

[elmacgyver0]

In all fairness, true!

The LFCD is not really used correctly by most handloaders. Lee fails to inform the proper use, intended bullet diameter & design, etc.....but it "works good enough" by most that don't really know any better.

Incomplete vague instruction manuals are pretty much the norm these days.

[John Boy]

When using the FC die, it properly crimped when your finger is slid down to the case mouth and you feel no ridge ... too much is over crimp and a ridge = not enough. Same feeling for crimps in the crimp groove - On the band and on the ogive of the nose

[dangitgriff]

Y’all help me out, here, I use the FCD on .41 mag...
Is the FCD supposed to curl the case mouth slightly inward, barely biting into the crimp groove/boolit, or adjusted to look like a taper crimp? The above fingernail test indicates the former.
What is the consensus regarding proper adjustment of the FCD? What is the proper way to adjust the FCD?
R/Griff

[Savvy Jack]

Here are a few older WW JSP cartridges that show a factory collet crimp. The lead bullet cartridges are newer Winchester cowboy loads.
NOTE the neck length of the cowboy loads
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[Larry Gibson]

That is one heck of a crimp Savvy Jack!!!!!

Entirely to much as evidenced by the case brass being swaged in between the collet fingers. I use several different Lee collet FCDs [though not for the 44-40] to crimp case mouths into crimp grooves on cast bullets. Simply backing the die out so the collet just pinches in the case mouth can give a very nice crimp similar to a roll crimp.

As to Lee FCD dies for handgun cartridges I use the 9mm and 45 ACP ones with complete satisfaction. But then, I use .357 and .451/2 sized bullets.

[Savvy Jack]

That is one heck of a crimp Savvy Jack!!!!!

Entirely to much as evidenced by the case brass being swaged in between the collet fingers. I use several different Lee collet FCDs [though not for the 44-40] to crimp case mouths into crimp grooves on cast bullets. Simply backing the die out so the collet just pinches in the case mouth can give a very nice crimp similar to a roll crimp.

As to Lee FCD dies for handgun cartridges I use the 9mm and 45 ACP ones with complete satisfaction. But then, I use .357 and .451/2 sized bullets.

Those are FACTORY cartridges

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[DougGuy]

I modify these Lee collet crimp dies. Mostly to narrow the crimp band, I mean why would you want to crimp the top .060" of the case plus another .100" of the boolit in front of the case? Stupid. I make the crimp band about .050" wide total, then I shorten the collet and bring the top of the crimp band down to just a hair below the case mouth. I see no reason why I could not modify the actual crimped diameter of the collet so that it only closes to a certain diameter which would alleviate the pinched cases and also eliminate swaging the boolit down inside the case. Yes some swaging will occur, but if there is a crimp groove where the crimp band applies it would be negligible, barely noticed.

Here is a thread detailing the mods I like to do to mine, have done quite a few for forum members here and everyone seems to be happy with the modded die and the crimps it produces. This thread only deals with narrowing the crimp band and bringing it down onto the case mouth, but it would be easy enough to hone out the inside of it if I had a dozen or so assembled dummies with the .430" boolit or whichever boolit the shooter needed loaded to gauge the progress with. Overall this really is a superior crimp, WHEN it is tailored more closely to the job it needs to do.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

As a side note, I was watching a movie called "Serena" set in the Smoky Mountains of North Carolina in 1929, the movie was filmed in Prague from all I could tell, the armorer had a slovak name, but the central character in the movie was a rich timber baron, hunting with a drop dead GORGEOUS 1873 Winchester rifle, silver or nickel plated, fully engraved, beautiful octagon barrel, some extremely choice furniture, and they showed a close up of the rifle being loaded through the loading gate, of course it was plain to see it was 44WCF and I could see the band around the bottleneck, but also the crimp as well and it looked very similar to a collet style crimp.

Its ironic that I am answering a thread concerning the 44WCF cartridge today, after seeing that very detailed and VERY BEAUTIFUL rifle on the tv just a few hours ago. I have to give credit where credit is due, they NAILED the rifle for period correct in every way, it was truly a magnificent example of what a wealthy man's levergun would have been in those days.

The movie is on Roku, free to watch, pretty stupid anti-climatic ending but still a good watch if you are a fan of these very ornate Winnies, the rifle was featured prominently in several scenes.

[Savvy Jack]

I do remember that thread Guy but forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder.

I prefer the Redding Crimp Die though, no mods needed for the 44-40's light crimp on both lead and jacket bullets with the original 44-40 O'give profile.

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[DougGuy]

Lots of factory ammo is 'collet' crimped but unlike the Lee, they just press inward. The Lee uses downward force and lateral. When the Lee pushes the mouth into the crimp groove, what you call bumps are actually NOT indented and yes, stress the brass to eventual failure/splitting. The groove causes the failure, not the FCD.

The collet style Lee FCD doesn't push downward at all, it only closes the collet from the side. The collet bottoms out on the shell holder before any crimp is applied, there is no further downward motion once the collet comes into contact with the shell holder.

[Savvy Jack]

The following photo is a comparison between the Redding Profile Crimp and the Lee Factory Crimp.
The bullet is the Accurate Molds 43-214A design I submitted. There is no crimp groove. See post #17 for the bare bullet profile.

The LFCD is used in this comparison to where the collet is fully closed with this .428" diameter bullet.

265984


The following photo shows the case split at the point of the bump bulge. The excessive bump bulge is caused when using larger .429/.430 bullets and the collet not fully closing before the full crimp is applied allowing the brass to be squeezed between the collet slits.. Although a CAS shooter should not experience case splits with light loads, normal loads will eventually cause splits in this weak area produced by the LFCD.

The 44-40 does not need excessive crimps like the 357 Mag, 44 Mag etc and the handloader could back off the crimp a little. Always test a magtube-full of cartridges before using to make sure your crimp is enough to prevent "telescoping" of the bullet down into the case when using in rifles. https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/redding-profile-crimp-die

265986
Lee FCD (split case)

To clarify, the Redding Profile Crimp die was used in this last photo. The damage was done previously by use of the LFCD and shows the damage remains forever on the case.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, factories certainly can and do over crimp too. Just haven't found it necessary.......so far.......

I like Doug's modification......

[Savvy Jack]

Yes, factories certainly can and do over crimp too. Just haven't found it necessary.......so far.......

I like Doug's modification......

Absolutely...but even with the modifications, the modified crimp is even not necessary for the 44-40. Looks great for the 45 Colt and 44 Mag loads!!!


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?406056-Lee-Collet-Factory-Crimp-Die-and-44-40&p=4958543&viewfull=1#post4958543

[Larry Gibson]

For me and my M92 (Chiappa) 44-40 it's a moot issue as I use RCBS dies which put a nice mild roll crimp on the cases.

266000

[Tripplebeards]

I love the lee collet crimp Factory crimp dies. I do go overboard with it some times. I’ve caught myself over crimping with it several times. I usually get out a magnifying glass to see if there is an indent in my case and adjust till I see a crimp mark.

Here’s a good example of how I use mine to fold over the lube groove. Gives me excellent accuracy this way.

https://i.imgur.com/KUIkqCp.jpg

[Savvy Jack]

For me and my M92 (Chiappa) 44-40 it's a moot issue as I use RCBS dies which put a nice mild roll crimp on the cases.

266000

I sure need to get a 92'

[Savvy Jack]

I typically use a Roll crimp on a bullet with a roll crimp groove. I use the RCBS for that crimp.

266003

[Savvy Jack]

Here is a 43-219M that was designed specifically for the LFCD

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[prs]

Thank you Savvy Jack! I see the difference.

Rooster

[Savvy Jack]

Here is the modern 43-XXX series molds by Accurate. Anyone can submit a design and order just one mold. No group buy necessary.

John Kort played with the Lyman 427098 and machined out the middle driving band to allow more lube for black powder. He sent in the design (rather a modification) and came up with the 43-215C. I simply took the 43-215C and requested no crimp grove, re-add the middle driving band for smokeless lube and to flare that crimp area into the Ogive. This created the 43-214A with no crimp groove. This is were the Redding Profile crimp or a LFCD is needed.

The 43-219M was designed with a flat crimp for the LFCD rather than a standard roll crimp.

Accurate Molds - http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=14

44-40 Website Molds Page - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/bullet-molds/modern-bullet-molds gives some explanations and who designed it.