Chances of GC coming off inside case?

[carolina sorillo]

I have often wondered what are the chances of a GC coming off inside the cartridge?

I'm shooting a subsonic GC bullet unchecked in .270win. with good results. But I've also got a .300winmag that I thought about trying with cast but the WM case has a really short neck and a 180-200gr bullet would extend pretty far into the case.

CS

[tankgunner59]

I can't adress your calibers, but I shoot gas checked cast bullets in both of my Mosin Nagants and my 30-06 Springfield at full published data with no problems. I also shoot 30-30, 7.62X39 and 22-250 and have never had a gas check come off in a case. Never had any leading in any of my rifles.
Hope this helps.

[MrHarmless]

I've never had an issue with gas checks coming off as they're pressed into the case, since the neck is only applying more pressure to the check on the way in.

I have to seat the Lee 312-160-2R pretty deep to chamber reliably in a few calibers, and I've only had them come off when disassembling a round with a impact puller. The grip from the neck will pull them off.

[Bazoo]

The old style Lyman checks and the simple homemade ones could come off if the base of the bullet was seated into the body of the case. But the Hornady crimp on checks will not. They crimp on, you can't get them off with any ease with pliers. Provided the gas check shank is sized correctly of course.

[popper]

Don't think you need GC. I was shooting 185gr GC sans GC, just PCd ( not sub sonic) in BO the other day, accuracy was good at 50 yds. Yup, base way below the neck - but you do have a larger case body. Years ago a Canuk was shooting 06 IIRC with GC not crimped and had one stay in the barrel. IMHO came off in the case but blown into the barrel.

[derek45]

years ago, i screwed up my powder measure and had to pull some 44 magnum bullets 430-310-RF with gas checks

i used an inertia hammer and the roll crimp would grab the gas check and retain it in the brass

[gwpercle]

I was always instructed that when shooting cast gas checked boolits in bottle neck cases to make sure to not seat the boolit so deep that the gas check was below the neck body juncture . The neck held the check in place and there was NO danger of the check falling off the base and lying on top of the powder .
It made sense at the time so that is how I seat all my boolits (even the base of J-word's I don't seat so deep they encroach / hang down , into the case body) .
That rule still makes sense ... so I still seat them that way .
When you pull a loaded round , loaded with cast gas checked boolits , I have had the gas check stay in the neck but they are easily removed with needle nose pliers ...just don't shove the check down into the case body... you not getting that one out.

If I were going to deep seat a gas checked boolit I would epoxy the check in place with a good two-part adhesive like J.B. Weld ...then I believe the check would stay put until fired ... they still may come off if you pull the boolit ... but as long as they are fired they should be OK !
Gary

[gwpercle]

years ago, i screwed up my powder measure and had to pull some 44 magnum bullets 430-310-RF with gas checks

i used an inertia hammer and the roll crimp would grab the gas check and retain it in the brass

Next time try seating the bullets just a little deeper to break the crimp, then pull them ...it might help! If not turn the GC sideways enough so you can grab it with small needle nose pliers ... sounds like I've done this ...yeah , several times .
Gary

[carolina sorillo]

I was always instructed that when shooting cast gas checked boolits in bottle neck cases to make sure to not seat the boolit so deep that the gas check was below the neck body juncture . The neck held the check in place and there was NO danger of the check falling off the base and lying on top of the powder .
It made sense at the time so that is how I seat all my boolits (even the base of J-word's I don't seat so deep they encroach / hang down , into the case body) .
That rule still makes sense ... so I still seat them that way .
When you pull a loaded round , loaded with cast gas checked boolits , I have had the gas check stay in the neck but they are easily removed with needle nose pliers ...just don't shove the check down into the case body... you not getting that one out.

If I were going to deep seat a gas checked boolit I would epoxy the check in place with a good two-part adhesive like J.B. Weld ...then I believe the check would stay put until fired ... they still may come off if you pull the boolit ... but as long as they are fired they should be OK !
Gary

I don't think it's possible to load a bullet larger that 120gr in a .300 winmag without the base extending into the body of the case. It has a really short case neck. I had another thought after starting this thread. So, as posted above, I believe the crimped-on checks will stay in place so I don't think that will be a problem. However, with the short neck of the .300winmag, if load a 180-220gr bullet like it is made for not only will the check be below the neck but so will the lube grooves. I use SPG because I used to load BP cartridges and I still have a good supply of it. It works good with smokeless and cleans up easier than wax lube but, it has a really low melting point. Which means if I load a bunch ahead of time and they lay around very long, the lube will get in the powder. So, the only successful way I see to load cast in the winmag is with powder coated bullets, unless someone else has done it successfully.

CS

[slim1836]

I don't think it's possible to load a bullet larger that 120gr in a .300 winmag without the base extending into the body of the case. It has a really short case neck. I had another thought after starting this thread. So, as posted above, I believe the crimped-on checks will stay in place so I don't think that will be a problem. However, with the short neck of the .300winmag, if load a 180-220gr bullet like it is made for not only will the check be below the neck but so will the lube grooves. I use SPG because I used to load BP cartridges and I still have a good supply of it. It works good with smokeless and cleans up easier than wax lube but, it has a really low melting point. Which means if I load a bunch ahead of time and they lay around very long, the lube will get in the powder. So, the only successful way I see to load cast in the winmag is with powder coated bullets, unless someone else has done it successfully.

CS

Don't get the false impression that by powder coating you will not need a gas check unless you plan on keeping it under a certain velocity.

Slim

[Stephen Cohen]

I have shot a lot of gas checked cast and have never had a problem unless I tried to remove a bullet with a kinetic puller. I will never seat any bullet bellow the neck regardless of caliber,this is the main reason I do not own a 300WM but if it was built on a long action and had a long throat I would consider it. I believe with all the pressure behind a gas check it would be unlikely one would come off before the projectile left the barrel, but seat below the neck and all bets are off in my view. Regards Stephen

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I have not had a problem shooting gas checked bullets in the 300 Savage, 308 or others when gas check is below neck. I have always used the crimp-on gas checks for these applications and sized after seating gas check. There are some who claim loss of accuracy, noticeable at 200 yards and beyond blamed on lead heating/melting above the gas check, I have not encountered this, with my 300 Savage giving 3 to 3.5 inch groups at 200 yards with a 311332 seated so gas check is below cas neck. Maybe larger charges of slower powders would do this, I am using 4227 or 5744. There are few bullets that DO NOT extend past the neck of the 300 Savage or 300 Win Mag. I shoot both and find accuracy can be excellent with either.

[carolina sorillo]

I believe with all the pressure behind a gas check it would be unlikely one would come off before the projectile left the barrel, but seat below the neck and all bets are off in my view. Regards Stephen

That's kind of what I was thinking and then the powder and lube co-mingling isn't ideal either. I may just try to forget about cast in the 300WM. My load using Sierra's 165gr jhp shoots 1/2" @100yds and I don't think I can improve on that anyway.

Thanks y'all,
CS

[derek45]

Next time try seating the bullets just a little deeper to break the crimp, then pull them ...it might help! If not turn the GC sideways enough so you can grab it with small needle nose pliers ... sounds like I've done this ...yeah , several times .
Gary

That's exactly what I did LOL

.

[44magLeo]

How about a drop of super glue in the check, hand seat the boolit in the check, then run through the luber? Seems like that would keep the check on.
Leo

[86Merk]

One of my very first experiments with gas checked rifle bullets I was trying to dial in the seating depth. The bullet was long and the drive bands engaged the rifling. When extracted the bullet pulled free leaving the gas check firmly locked in the case. Other than that I've recovered completely smashed bullets that you could only tell *were* bullets was because the gas check was still attached.

Because I believe in the belt and suspenders approach I crimp the GC to the cast bullet and then powder coat. Those ain't going nowhere (these are the magic words when attaching anything to anything else BTW)

ges

[2manyguns]

i shoot a 44mag rifle with 265&300 gn cast i have fired several thousand rds with this setup , i make gas checks with small 11mm circles of leather that i c cut out with a leather punch ,these are stuck to the base of the bullet when i coat the pill with liquid alox , i stand the bullet on wax paper until alox is dry then load and shoot. my understanding of G C was they only needed to prevent gas cutting while the bullet is traveling down the barrel and who cares what happens to them once they have cleared the barrel . I have never had one stay in the barrel in about 30 yrs of doing this way , also accuracy does not seem to be affected, i read a article by Terry weiland and he said he could not recall ever recovering a gas check still on the fired bullet . my butt could be out a foot on this but to this date it has worked for me ..2manyguns

[onelight]

I would be more concerned with a gas check coming off and lodging in the the barrel , than coming off in the case with slow loads.
I don't use gas checks on slow loads so don't know if this is a valid concern or not , hopefully someone with experience doing this will chime in.

[John Boy]

sorillo, when you put a crimp on the heel of the bullet, if you are skeptical the GC is not crimped solid, just run your finger down the bullet to feel the case edge is equal to the bullet base diameter ... identifies the GC is properly crimped

[cas]

I think a GC could come off in the case in a revolver if you didn't have a good crimp. I say this having pulled bullets with a kinetic puller and having the GC stay stuck in the case.

[Bazoo]

I think a GC could come off in the case in a revolver if you didn't have a good crimp. I say this having pulled bullets with a kinetic puller and having the GC stay stuck in the case.

When fired, the expanding gas pushes against the gas check. That would keep even a loose check in place down the bore.

[Peregrine]

I've found a gas check inside a fired .308 case, didn't realize it was still in there until I encountered a case that was unusually hard to decap and upon closer inspection found the GC still inside with a hole punched through it.

I often have to seat boolits with the gas check below the neck but this was a load where I considered the base of the boolit high enough in the neck to prevent the gas check from coming off. So much for that.

I consistantly have issues with gas checks that come off in flight. Well, they don't actually cause any issues but there is evidence to suggest they are coming off. Alloy too hard and boolit casting slightly too large, I believe.

[2manyguns]

I consistantly have issues with gas checks that come off in flight. Well, they don't actually cause any issues but there is evidence to suggest they are coming off. Alloy too hard and boolit casting slightly too large, I believe.[/QUOTE]
///////do you think it makes a difference if the GC comes off after the bullet is out of the pipe ?/////

[Larry Gibson]

I consistantly have issues with gas checks that come off in flight. Well, they don't actually cause any issues but there is evidence to suggest they are coming off. Alloy too hard and boolit casting slightly too large, I believe.
///////do you think it makes a difference if the GC comes off after the bullet is out of the pipe ?/////[/QUOTE]

I'm sure there are some variables involved but losing a GC in flight can have an adverse affect on accuracy. I've shot a lot of the old original Lyman slip on GCs and quite a few of my own home made ones. In rifles with slower twists shooting at moderate velocities (under 1800 fps) I've watched a lot of bullets out of rifles and handguns go down range with the Sun shining off the GC.....kind of neat to watch. Never really had much problems with those GCs coming off in flight but then all were snug fitting, especially after sizing. Above 1800 fps, especially if the twist is faster than 1-10, I have observed the adverse affect caused when GCs come off. Not only is accuracy adversely affected but severe damage to chronograph screens can also happen.

How adverse the accuracy is affected depends on the range to the target and the RPM. At 100 yards every time the GC came off the shot was a "flyer" out of the group. Even with Crimp on GCs carefully put on the bullets they come off at high RPM and/or high velocity (2000 - 3000+ fps). My experience with aluminum GC made from .012 or .014 stock show they split and come off a lot above 2000 fps in 10 and 12" twist 30 caliber rifles and accuracy always suffers. Those who shoot at lower velocity and at 50 yards probably won't notice any adverse affect.

[2manyguns]

///////do you think it makes a difference if the GC comes off after the bullet is out of the pipe ?/////

I'm sure there are some variables involved but losing a GC in flight can have an adverse affect on accuracy. I've shot a lot of the old original Lyman slip on GCs and quite a few of my own home made ones. In rifles with slower twists shooting at moderate velocities (under 1800 fps) I've watched a lot of bullets out of rifles and handguns go down range with the Sun shining off the GC.....kind of neat to watch. Never really had much problems with those GCs coming off in flight but then all were snug fitting, especially after sizing. Above 1800 fps, especially if the twist is faster than 1-10, I have observed the adverse affect caused when GCs come off. Not only is accuracy adversely affected but severe damage to chronograph screens can also happen.

How adverse the accuracy is affected depends on the range to the target and the RPM. At 100 yards every time the GC came off the shot was a "flyer" out of the group. Even with Crimp on GCs carefully put on the bullets they come off at high RPM and/or high velocity (2000 - 3000+ fps). My experience with aluminum GC made from .012 or .014 stock show they split and come off a lot above 2000 fps in 10 and 12" twist 30 caliber rifles and accuracy always suffers. Those who shoot at lower velocity and at 50 yards probably won't notice any adverse affect.[/QUOTE]

thanks for that info i am only shooting G C with 44 mag rifle with 265&300gn cast so my velocity is quite low and a 300 blk with a 208 gn pill that is even slower

[derek45]

This thread has some good pics of gas checks, not, flying off.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?338169-A-few-more-hogs-with-the-Ruger-96-44-and-the-Lee-310gr

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[Larry Gibson]

Here's what GCs coming off at HV can do to screens.....

274056
274057
274058

[Yooper003]

I believe powder coating after crimping on gascheck is good insurance to GC coming off.