More 9mm woes

[Bashby]

I’ve been trying to get my cast boolits to work in my Polymer 80. The original barrel was of unknown origin, came with the kit I bought. I sent it to Dougguy to rework the throat and wasn’t happy with accuracy after that. Decided to try a new barrel from Lonewolf. My reloads would not plunk in the chamber, which I narrowed down to my Lee resizing die not properly sizing brass. New RCBS die took care of that, so I went to try it out.

Edit: Pic is 90 deg off, right side is bottom target.
265315

Shot at 15 yards. Bottom target is factory ammo, top is my reloads with cast boolits. Mold is from Accurate, 130gr. 4.7gr Unique. I pulled a bullet and found slight swaging down to .356, which should be ok since my barrel slugged at .3555. Not sure where to go from here. 265316

[WheelgunConvert]

Most of the ones off the plate are keyholes.

[Dusty Bannister]

One handed, two handed, from a rest or standing?

Does the top punch closely fit the nose of the bullet you are seating. Looks like you are getting tipping as you seat the bullet as shown by the swollen appearance at the base of the bullet on the two cartridges on the right.

[PJEagle]

I have a 9MM that sluggs at .3555. The accuracy is much better with .357 boolits that .356.

[Bashby]

Most of the ones off the plate are keyholes.

That’s what I thought. The backer wasn’t stapled securely on the top right corner so I wasn’t sure.

[Bashby]

One handed, two handed, from a rest or standing?

Does the top punch closely fit the nose of the bullet you are seating. Looks like you are getting tipping as you seat the bullet as shown by the swollen appearance at the base of the bullet on the two cartridges on the right.

Standing, 2 handed. I did everything the same on the bottom target as I did on the top.

ETA: Top punch does not exactly fit boolit profile.

[Bashby]

I have a 9MM that sluggs at .3555. The accuracy is much better with .357 boolits that .356.

I sized them to 357 after PC. I use a 38 S&Wexpander. After crimping, they apparently get swaged to 356.

[Huskerguy]

Interesting. I have been going through the same thing with plated and FMJ bullets until yesterday. I tried all sorts of things, W-231, Titegroup and CFE powders. At least four different bullets.

I too had good success with Winchester white box putting five of five in the center black at 50' off a rest indoors. I stepped back and started all over, slugged my barrel and worked up loads for three different bullets and two different powders. The big thing I did that I "think" made the difference was to back my seating die out so it just barely and I mean barely holds the bullet in the case. That is the main thing I believe I changed and my success was surprising. I had 4.2 grains of W231 and 3.8 of Titegroup both show very well and I came home with a dilemma - which load to use they were both good! And that was with a pulled known name 124 grain FMJ RN, 124 grain Berry's HBRN and a Remington 124 grain hollow point. I have at least two or three more bullets in bulk to work on so it never ends.

All that said, I was given some lead bullets in the 125 range, RN and I could never get them to group well. Best of luck

[popper]

Close to top load in 9mm. Size 357 and see if they pass plunk test. You do have to expand the case more for cast. properly sizing brass helps.

[Conditor22]

Try the largest size that chambers and cycles. I'd start with .358 cast out of coww and quench.

Made a BIG difference for my shooting partner

[Landshark9025]

I would consider the Lyman M die unless that 38 S&W does exactly the same thing. Would also consider crimping in a separate step with the Lee Factory Crimp Die and only just barely taking the bell out.

Those two things made a difference for me.

I also would not be afraid to work up a load with a different powder. HP-38 is the winner for me in the 125g range.

[Bashby]

On that last batch, I seated and crimped in separate steps. I also put 2 coats of PC on these boolits before running them through my Lee .357 die.

[blikseme300]

It appears that the bullets as loaded are too small. Lee sizing dies are notorious for not sizing to the size marked, BTW. More layers of PC won't help either. 9mmP can be a PITA to get right but can be done. Typically the brass is sized down more than needed and will squeeze the cast bullet down unless a custom expander is used. If bullets are not seated straight the cartridges won't chamber either.

[sigep1764]

NOE makes an expander plug that will properly expand a case for a cast boolit. It works inside a Lee Universal Expanding die. I would also check the size of a boolit after sending it through that Lee sizing die. If it is smaller than 357, you can open it up with emory cloth wrapped around a wooden dowel. Just hold the sides of the dowel and roll the die on a flat surface with even pressure. A screw driver will work in a pinch in place of the dowel. Also, there is no crimp needed in 9mm. Just remove the bell on the end of the case. It should not be crimped into the lead boolit.

[Bashby]

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/expanders/expander-plug-pistol

The .357x.353 auto pistol expander says it works on 9mm Kurz. The other .357x.353 doesn’t say what it’s for. Are one of these what I need?

Edit to note I am currently using a 38 S&W expander in a Lee powder through die.

[Bashby]

It appears that the bullets as loaded are too small. Lee sizing dies are notorious for not sizing to the size marked, BTW. More layers of PC won't help either. 9mmP can be a PITA to get right but can be done. Typically the brass is sized down more than needed and will squeeze the cast bullet down unless a custom expander is used. If bullets are not seated straight the cartridges won't chamber either.

My Lee sizer does size correctly, right at .357.

[dale2242]

I size my 9MM bullets to .358.

[ioon44]

I’ve been trying to get my cast boolits to work in my Polymer 80. The original barrel was of unknown origin, came with the kit I bought. I sent it to Dougguy to rework the throat and wasn’t happy with accuracy after that. Decided to try a new barrel from Lonewolf. My reloads would not plunk in the chamber, which I narrowed down to my Lee resizing die not properly sizing brass. New RCBS die took care of that, so I went to try it out.

Edit: Pic is 90 deg off, right side is bottom target.
265315

Shot at 15 yards. Bottom target is factory ammo, top is my reloads with cast boolits. Mold is from Accurate, 130gr. 4.7gr Unique. I pulled a bullet and found slight swaging down to .356, which should be ok since my barrel slugged at .3555. Not sure where to go from here. 265316

I cast the same Accurate 130 gr bullet and coat with Hi-Tek, I load the 130gr un sized which is .359" to .360" and my pulled bullets are always .358" or more. This is dependent on the round passing the plunk test.
You might try the bullets unsized in the barrel that Dougguy reworked for you, some brands of brass will swagge bullets more than others, I have backed off my sizer die so as not to full length resize but always check for correct neck tension.

[dverna]

Keyholing means the bullet is not spinning.

Either too small a bullet or too soft an alloy to take the twist, or barrel is leaded. You got some good advice above.

You might want to get 100 commercial bullets made from 92-6-2 alloy and see what happens. Get them sized .357. YMMV

[Conditor22]

The 2 biggest problems/causes of failure with loading cast in 9MM are OVER-CRIMPING & downsizing the boolit when seating.
The 9MM has a tapered case.

Crimping, I use the lee FCD and only crimp to where the boolit won't move when the cartridge is pushed against a hard object.

For seating I like the NOE neck sizing dies so much I talked with a member ob CB who made a Lee powder through die with the NOE profile of several different diameters. I've had good luck expanding the brass using the same diamiter expanding plug as the boolit diamiter (brass springs back .001 after expanding and that .
.001 does the job holding the boolit in place!

A 38spcl/357mag expander plug should work also

I used to expand the neck with the NOE neck sizing die the use the Lee powder through setup to charge the case.

Ues a kenetic boolit puller and make sure your not downsizing the boolit in either of these operations.

this will go a long way toward tightening up your groups and preventing leading/tumbling

[Burnt Fingers]

I'm guessing you're using a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die?

Get rid of that crutch.

[gwpercle]

The 2 biggest problems/causes of failure with loading cast in 9MM are OVER-CRIMPING & downsizing the boolit when seating.
The 9MM has a tapered case.

Crimping, I use the lee FCD and only crimp to where the boolit won't move when the cartridge is pushed against a hard object.

For seating I like the NOE neck sizing dies so much I talked with a member ob CB who made a Lee powder through die with the NOE profile of several different diameters. I've had good luck expanding the brass using the same diamiter expanding plug as the boolit diamiter (brass springs back .001 after expanding and that .
.001 does the job holding the boolit in place!

A 38spcl/357mag expander plug should work also

I used to expand the neck with the NOE neck sizing die the use the Lee powder through setup to charge the case.

Ues a kenetic boolit puller and make sure your not downsizing the boolit in either of these operations.

this will go a long way toward tightening up your groups and preventing leading/tumbling

BINGO .... We have a winner !
Size your boolits .357 , do whatever it takes to not size them down during seating .
What solved my problem was Lee Universal Expander (neck flare actually) and the correct NOE Expander plug ... tell them the size of your boolit to be seated and get the correct size...
I would bet money the barrel throated by Doug Guy will work fine with .357 seated boolits .
The 9mm case is notorious for squeezing down boolits and too much taper crimp will also squeeze them down and undersize causes the problems .... trust me I've been down this road !
Gary

[Conditor22]

PT111 G2 needed .358 and harder alloy to work well

going larger and harder took it from an 8"+ group to under 2" at 35 feet

[gnostic]

Try the largest size that chambers and cycles. I'd start with .358 cast out of coww and quench.

Made a BIG difference for my shooting partner

^^^^^What he said^^^^^ I'm probably wrong, but in over 50 years of handloading 9mm. I've never seen a pistol that shot a bullet smaller than .358 without leading the barrel and tumbling.

[Bashby]

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/expanders/expander-plug-pistol

The .357x.353 auto pistol expander says it works on 9mm Kurz. The other .357x.353 doesn’t say what it’s for. Are one of these what I need?

Edit to note I am currently using a 38 S&W expander in a Lee powder through die.

Looking at this again, since the brass springs back .001 after expanding, I guess I need a 358 expander. Is this correct?

[Conditor22]

That's what I use. some brass springs back more than that depending on thickness and age.

In the end, you have to see what works best for your gun.

A little off the topic -- I have a couple European 9MM's that need .360 boolits

let us know how it turns out

[popper]

Probably a harder alloy. 9mm cases are not only tapered but hard brass (usually) that will size down your soft alloy. H.T after cooking the PC - see if that helps. Min extra 1/2 hr cook time then into ice water. My expander is 38P from Lyman - it is longer and straightens out the tapered 9mm case. I size my 9mms to 357 - works fine. Too much crimp will sometimes bulge the brass so it won't chamber. Especially on that smooth sided mould. I don't use the Lee die for 9 but there is lots of talk about the carbide ring used to remove the glock bulge and problems it causes.

[blikseme300]

I sized them to 357 after PC. I use a 38 S&Wexpander. After crimping, they apparently get swaged to 356.

I have to ask this, what are you using to measure the diameter? Unless you are using a micrometer you are not getting the proper size.

[Bashby]

I have to ask this, what are you using to measure the diameter? Unless you are using a micrometer you are not getting the proper size.

Using 0-1” micrometer.

[Bashby]

I just realized that the NOE expander is 358x354, meaning the case will be sized to 358 at the top for a flare, then step down to 354. That would be smaller than my 38 s&w expander. It starts at 356 and gets bigger from there. My RCBS 357 expander measures 3555 with no taper.

[mto7464]

What others have said you need to expand the case more and size your bullets larger. I had a custom expander made for my dillon. It made a world of difference. My cast shoot as well as jacketed now. Prior to that they were getting sized down. FYI I size to .3575

[Conditor22]

I was using the rifle .362 x .358 Exp. Plug for my .358 boolits
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/expanders/expander-plug-rifle/362-x-358-exp-plug

remember you will need a LEE Universal Case Exp. Die to use the expanding plug in.

[fcvan]

The first pistol I bought was a S&W 459. I bought a Lee 356-125 2R mold which I cast using range scrap. The range at work was exclusively shooting soft swaged lead 38 sp hollow based wadcutters, the practice round for my agency at the time. I loaded the same way I was taught to load 38 sp by my Dad using Lee 9mm dies. Pan lubed, the boolits were loaded without issues, no leading, no keyholes. Later, I acquired a micrometer to measure the boolits. They ran .358 when cast and when pulled. I used a .358 die in my Lyman 450.

Many 9mm pistols later, some mine, others mine, and a few carbines, I never had a problem. Some years back, I bought a .357 sizing for my Lyman 450 to try out. Keyholes at 15 yards, shotgun patterns. The barrel was a Lone Wolf drop-in for my G22. Some of the rounds were fired on the same day through my buddy's stock G17, same result. I got rid of the .357 sizing die in trade with a member here who wanted it. I have exclusively sized to .358 except for that one time and have pretty much switched to ASBB powder coating. I still have the Lyman 450, sitting in the original box after 35 years of steady use.

Try a larger sizing die, try opening up the case more, seat to proper OAL, then reset the dies to crimp enough to take the bell out of the case mouth. You will likely find the 'plunk' just fine in the Lone Wolf barrel. My 2 centavos.

[gwpercle]

Looking at this again, since the brass springs back .001 after expanding, I guess I need a 358 expander. Is this correct?

I emailed NOE , told them my problem and what diameter boolit I was going to size those boolits and asked them ... what would be the correct expander plug ...I'm glad I did because I had calculated things wrong and was going to buy the wrong size .... Ask for advice ... Al doesn't charge you for advice ...free and usually correct !

All 4 of my 9mm luger's work with .357" sized boolits .
NOE has a 124 gr. TC mould with a gas check ....gas check solves a LOT of the 9mm bugs ...
I even can use a soft alloy over 1000 fps with no leading !
In 9mm , the gas check can be your best friend .
Gary

[fcvan]

[QUOTE=. . . with a gas check ....gas check solves a LOT of the 9mm bugs ...
I even can use a soft alloy over 1000 fps with no leading !
In 9mm , the gas check can be your best friend .
Gary[/QUOTE]

I agree Gary, a gas check can solve some issues. I have dies to make plain base gas checks from soda can aluminum which work very well. Currently, I push ASBBPCd 125 grain at 1350 fps from an AR 15 9mm carbine, and a 102-1R at 1500 fps from the same carbine, no gas check. The 125 rn usually goes 100 fps from my 4,5" pistols. I did try some 'warmer' loads with the 102 gr boolit, and got 1400 fps from the 4.5" pistol. I didn't try them in the AR as I hadn't built it yet. PC is tough and protects the boolit during cycling through the carbine, and as always, fit is king. .358 has worked for me in every 9mm I have owned or shot.

[fredj338]

I shoot PC coated 9mm in dreaded glock OEM bbls. I have no issues with leading or accuracy & I run 0.356" bullets. I used to run .357" but had issues with some brass brands. I cast from range scrap, PC then water drop out of the PC oven. I don't gc & vel run 900-1150fps. I just haven't experienced all the "Troubles" with 9mm & cast.

[Bashby]

I was using the rifle .362 x .358 Exp. Plug for my .358 boolits
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/expanders/expander-plug-rifle/362-x-358-exp-plug

remember you will need a LEE Universal Case Exp. Die to use the expanding plug in.

I ordered one of those and a 363x359.

As of right now my plan is to try the 358 expander, if that doesn’t work, size to 358 and use the 359 expander. If that doesn’t work, harder alloy.

[Conditor22]

I shoot PC coated 9mm in dreaded glock OEM bbls. I have no issues with leading or accuracy & I run 0.356" bullets. I used to run .357" but had issues with some brass brands. I cast from range scrap, PC then water drop out of the PC oven. I don't gc & vel run 900-1150fps. I just haven't experienced all the "Troubles" with 9mm & cast.

PC then water drop out of the PC oven will give you a bhn around 22, that an economical way to get harder boolits, many 9mm's ten to like harder alloy.

https://i.imgur.com/uclR2g1.png

[onelight]

I shoot PC coated 9mm in dreaded glock OEM bbls. I have no issues with leading or accuracy & I run 0.356" bullets. I used to run .357" but had issues with some brass brands. I cast from range scrap, PC then water drop out of the PC oven. I don't gc & vel run 900-1150fps. I just haven't experienced all the "Troubles" with 9mm & cast.
My experience is like yours I use .356 and .357 at the same velocity range in M&P springfield HK ,sig , Ruger and CZ mainly Hi-Tek and use the FCD and no leading and good accuracy .

[Bashby]

Thought I’d give an update. I put the 358 NOE expander in my Lee powder through die and it wasn’t quite long enough so I went to Tractor Supply and found some washers I could stack on top of the expander to make it go down into the case further. Got it adjusted so the boolits would seat .020-.030 short of desired OAL wth hand pressure. They are tight enough that I can’t get some to seat by hand, and some of those scraped the PC and some lead off of the side of the boolit. Finished seating with RCBS die followed by Lee FCD. Out of 200, 150 would pass the plunk test in my Lone wolf barrel with the tight chamber. Those shot fairly accurately, no leading, no keyholing. Need to play around with powder charge and OAL to see what’s best still.

One “problem” is I get no flare on the case and it’s hard to start the boolits. Thinking about modifying the NOE expander or looking into having something custom made. Any thoughts on that?

[Cherokee]

I have modified most of my M-Die style expanders to put a flare on the case mouth. Handy having a lathe but not always easily done. I don't understand why the makers don't include a case mouth flare in their expander profiles at the end of the larger diam. shank. They think the larger portion will meet the need but it doesn't for my bullets.

Added: Somebody could have a thriving business making expanders with this feature.......hint to NOE.

[Hanzy4200]

Work with your AOL and maybe switch to a factory crimp. That, or just cut back on the roll. People always over crimp 9MM. I was guilty.

[cstrickland]

I cast and PC the lee 356-120-TC for my 9mm. I have three SW M&P's and the barrels slug at .3545. I use COWW or ISO core lead and a flat black electrostatic PC . I have also done the ASBB with same results

I size all my bullets to 0.356" with a lee die. It gets the to 0.3565.

I use a 38 special expander in my lee thru powder die. It opens the mouth of the case more than enough. you will actually need to set the die to keep it from opening too much.

I also seat and crimp with the lee die all in one operation and i DO NOT use a FCD. I load over 4.5 - 5.0 grains of unique and I am very happy with the results. No key holing and 5 shout groups go about 2-2.5" at 25 yards, two handed rapid fire. If you are looking for bullseye accuracy you may need to do more.

You need to get more flare to prevent the powder and lead from being scraped off. I would imagine that is causing you issue without doubt. Withe 38 special expander the case bells enough sp that I can hand seat the bullet, and about 1/3 of the lower driving band goes into the case just sitting it there .

[KVO]

The NOE expanders aren't very hard and can be cut with a file. For calibers where the larger step diameter is insufficient I put the expander in a drill press or hand drill and carefully file the upper step radius to a chamfer. This produces a sufficient flare to prevent coatings from scraping. If you're scraping PC, the expander is still scraping lead with traditional lube too. In that event the lube is a bit of a bandaid. Bad in either case.

[onelight]

The NOE expanders aren't very hard and can be cut with a file. For calibers where the larger step diameter is insufficient I put the expander in a drill press or hand drill and carefully file the upper step radius to a chamfer. This produces a sufficient flare to prevent coatings from scraping. If you're scraping PC, the expander is still scraping lead with traditional lube too. In that event the lube is a bit of a bandaid. Bad in either case.
Good idea , easy and free.

[Bashby]

I had a member PM me with some Suggestions and questions. Here is a picture to clarify what I’m working with.266065
The top expander Is the .358 one from NOE. I made a mark on it with a sharpie and expanded a case so you can see how far it goes into the casing. Below it are a 38 S&W and a 9mm expander for comparison. The washers are used above the expander to make it go into the case far enough. If I could somehow cut the bottom off of the NoE expander at just the right spot the step should put the flare on there that I want. I’m not sure how to do that with the equipment I have.

Edit to add: the NOE expander measures .3585 and .3625 at the step.

[cstrickland]

Can I ask a question ?? Are you using a 38 SW expander or a 38 SPECIAL expander ?? I and others that I know and have read about use the 38 SPECIAL and I do believe there is a difference, and probably the reason you are not getting flare . I can flare a 9mm case so much that I can almost place the whole bullet in it .

If you have the 38 special then it is just a matter of adjusting the die.

[cstrickland]

sorry I did not see what tools you have in order to be able to answer your question about cutting the NOE die down

[whisler]

I use the 38 S & W expander with my dies with no problem.

[popper]

Extra step, get the Lee flare tool.

[Bashby]

Can I ask a question ?? Are you using a 38 SW expander or a 38 SPECIAL expander ?? I and others that I know and have read about use the 38 SPECIAL and I do believe there is a difference, and probably the reason you are not getting flare . I can flare a 9mm case so much that I can almost place the whole bullet in it .

If you have the 38 special then it is just a matter of adjusting the die.

I have a set of RCBS 38 special/357 dies. The expander measures .3555. That is too small and would probably swage my boolits. I’d have to sink it way down in the case to get any flare.266091

[Bashby]

sorry I did not see what tools you have in order to be able to answer your question about cutting the NOE die down

Flat file, 1/2” drill, angle grinder, bench grinder, 1/2” drill press, oxy-acetylene torch...

[Bashby]

Extra step, get the Lee flare tool.

I can flare it with the 9mm or 38 s&w expander if I want to do an extra step...or are you saying there’s a flare tool that’s faster and easier?

[cstrickland]

ok so first. Yes you could do it with what you have it will just be slow and time consuming. I would chcuk up the NOE expander in a vise and rough cut with the angle grinder. I would then finish to 98% shape with the file to get it square and round the edges, then put it in the drill press and smooth and polish with sandpaper

I must still be missing something . It seems like your have everything you need. without modifing the NOE die
Station / op 1 RCBS decap and size
Station / OP 2 Lee through powder die with 38 SW plug to flare case and add powder
Station / OP 3 RCBS seating / taper
if you dont want to seat and crimp in same station then add
Station 4 / op4 lee FCD or other crimp die.

No need to use the RCBS flare die.

if I am missing a part I am sorry but it seems pretty simple with what you have

[Bashby]

ok so first. Yes you could do it with what you have it will just be slow and time consuming. I would chcuk up the NOE expander in a vise and rough cut with the angle grinder. I would then finish to 98% shape with the file to get it square and round the edges, then put it in the drill press and smooth and polish with sandpaper

I must still be missing something . It seems like your have everything you need. without modifing the NOE die
Station / op 1 RCBS decap and size
Station / OP 2 Lee through powder die with 38 SW plug to flare case and add powder
Station / OP 3 RCBS seating / taper
if you dont want to seat and crimp in same station then add
Station 4 / op4 lee FCD or other crimp die.

No need to use the RCBS flare die.

if I am missing a part I am sorry but it seems pretty simple with what you have

What about priming and dropping the powder charge? I’m still on a single stage press and have never used a progressive, but it seems to me I’d need a stage for:
1 size
2 expand
3 flare
4 prime
5 seat
6 crimp, unless I do it in stage 5.

ETA: forgot another stage to drop powder.. that makes 7.

[cstrickland]

ahh ok I see where your at . I would do it in this order

1- deprime , size and reprime using the primer option on your press like a lee single stage
2- LEE thru powder to expand which is flaring. dont over due just enough to get the bullet in about 0.100"
3-charge all cases . You could do this in step 2while the thru powder die is in, or do them in a loading block in this step
4- place bullet ,seat and crimp at same time. ( not a true crimp like a roll crimp but a taper just removing the bell flare that was added in step 2
I am not sure how well the RCBS seating / taper die works, so you may want to do it in two steps. I use Lee dies and have absolutely no issue seating and removing the flare (taper crimp )

You literally just want to remove the bell. I adjust my die until I get the case mouth to 0.379 - 0.378 with bullet in it . Just enough to remove the flare . You should be able to push the bullet on a hard surface and it not move back in the case .


if you actually roll crimp it swages the bullet down and you have blow by and leading .

[cstrickland]

I do not have a single stage press per say, but my turret press can be changed to a single stage press. If you still have questions let me know , and I will film a quick video of what I am talking about and send it to you . I am sure I could even find one on line and send you a link

What press do you have ??

[Bashby]

266097

This is my press. I bought it 25 years ago or so, used. Just getting back into reloading.

The 38 s&w expander was not working for me. I was swaging my boolits and getting 0 accuracy, tumbling, etc. that’s why I got this expander.

[cstrickland]

I think that may be cause you had it set wrong . Like I said I use the lee through powder die with the 38 Special expander and it works great. In post 49 Whisler confirmed he uses a 38 SW expander and it works well to . You can set it up and not have to load a single round, and still see the flare . I am not trying to insult you it just seems everyone else gets it to work, then you should be able to as well. sometimes its just the small detail that is over looked . If you would like we can walk through it step by step ?? Again not trying to insult just trying to help

I use mine with a lee drum powder measure. Are you adding powder with a funnel by hand or do you have a powder measure ?

I am not familiar with the press but I do not see a on press prime option, so that adds a step for sure. So how are you actually adding and seating a primer with that press ?

[Dusty Bannister]

Back to the photo in your post #46, it shows that you are using the powder through expander die with the plug you got from NOE. The plug from NOE is to be used with the Lee Universal Expander Die. Suppose that could be part of your problem with length? Usually, it is suggested that one use a magic marker to coat the wear surface of the expander plug so you can see a wear pattern and note how deep the plug goes into the case. I think I see a tiny mark on the side of the plug that is supposed to show us that. But that means that only the expander is inside the case, it does not show that the flare is anywhere close to actually doing the intended job. You may need to ruin a few cases to see just how deep you need to go to either get a flare or hit the inside taper of the case and that will stop you. Looking at the middle expanding plug, you will see a brighter area on the expander plug just where it about comes to the end of the part that goes into the case. Is that actually how deep the plug is being inserted, or just clean and not marked. Again, slather that plug down with black ink and show exactly how deep you are getting those plugs in the case. Do several pieces so it is really clear what you have done. If you are too timid, and not going deep enough, the flare can never take place.

[onelight]

My 38 s&w expander opens the case about right for .360 bullets that is to large for .358 bullets they will push in the case by hand A .360 bullet would not chamber in any of my 9s . As far as I am concerned that is to loose .
Be sure you need that large a bullet.

[Bashby]

Back to the photo in your post #46, it shows that you are using the powder through expander die with the plug you got from NOE. The plug from NOE is to be used with the Lee Universal Expander Die. Suppose that could be part of your problem with length? Usually, it is suggested that one use a magic marker to coat the wear surface of the expander plug so you can see a wear pattern and note how deep the plug goes into the case. I think I see a tiny mark on the side of the plug that is supposed to show us that. But that means that only the expander is inside the case, it does not show that the flare is anywhere close to actually doing the intended job. You may need to ruin a few cases to see just how deep you need to go to either get a flare or hit the inside taper of the case and that will stop you. Looking at the middle expanding plug, you will see a brighter area on the expander plug just where it about comes to the end of the part that goes into the case. Is that actually how deep the plug is being inserted, or just clean and not marked. Again, slather that plug down with black ink and show exactly how deep you are getting those plugs in the case. Do several pieces so it is really clear what you have done. If you are too timid, and not going deep enough, the flare can never take place.

I believe the Lee universal die has the same dimensions as the powder through die, as in it uses the same expanders.
I marked it better with the sharpie so the depth is easier to see.

266101

In the next photo, I stacked more washers on top of the NOE expander push it into the case further. I didn’t quite get to the step as you can see with the sharpie Mark. I could go deeper, but I’m bulging the case pretty bad, and my boolit goes in too far By hand (not enough neck tension).

266102

[Bashby]

I think that may be cause you had it set wrong . Like I said I use the lee through powder die with the 38 Special expander and it works great. In post 49 Whisler confirmed he uses a 38 SW expander and it works well to . You can set it up and not have to load a single round, and still see the flare . I am not trying to insult you it just seems everyone else gets it to work, then you should be able to as well. sometimes its just the small detail that is over looked . If you would like we can walk through it step by step ?? Again not trying to insult just trying to help

I have threads on here and other forums where I’ve been working on this for a while . I’ve determined that my 38/357 expander is too small and swaged boolits. My 38 s&w one has a taper to it. It does not go deep enough and stages my boolits. No offense taken and your advice is noted.
I use mine with a lee drum powder measure. Are you adding powder with a funnel by hand or do you have a powder measure ?

I am not familiar with the press but I do not see a on press prime option, so that adds a step for sure. So how are you actually adding and seating a primer with that press ?

Here is the Lyman ram prime die setup I’ve been using

266103


Here is my powder measure. I mount it in my press and hold the prepared case under it, drop the charge, then put it in a tray. I charge all that I’m reloading then switch the press over to seat the boolits.

266104


ETA: I now have an RCBS universal hand priming tool that I haven’t had the chance to use yet. It should be faster and easier than the Lyman ram setup.

[cstrickland]

Yes I was not familiar with your press, so I was thinking a single stage like a lee challenger or RCS rock chucker, where you have a on press primer option. Your press is realistically a lee hand press mounted, so yes you are going to have more steps then what I laid out, as on a single stage you can combine two sometime three steps in one.

the hand prime will be a little faster or at least in my experience it has.

if you are convinced the lee expander will not work then modifying the NOE is a good option. As stated you can do it with the tools you have, but it will be a slow process. If you know someone with a lathe it will be much quicker. I wish you luck on getting that modified and working !

[Burnt Fingers]

What about priming and dropping the powder charge? I’m still on a single stage press and have never used a progressive, but it seems to me I’d need a stage for:
1 size
2 expand
3 flare
4 prime
5 seat
6 crimp, unless I do it in stage 5.

ETA: forgot another stage to drop powder.. that makes 7.

You're way overthinking this and your step 2&3 are the same thing.

On my Dillon 650 presses it goes like this.

1. Deprime/resize
2. Prime, flare, powder drop. The prime happens as the case comes into the station on the down movement of the press.
3. Powder check.
4. Bullet seat
5. Flare removal.

[whisler]

I'm using my 38 S&W expander (Lee) in a Lee 9mm powder through die (in place of the Lee 9mm expander) and it flares nicely & allows me to seat my 0.3575 boolits without swaging them down and with adequate neck tension.
This is what works for me.

[sigep1764]

Im on a 550C. I deprime/resize on a single stage.
Stage 1. Expand with Lee Universal Expander and NOE Expander Plug and prime on the down stroke.
Stage 2. Lathesmith custom powder thru expander and flare.
Stage 3. Seat.
Stage 4. Crimp die set to just remove flare or bell.