best cast boolit + weapon kit-survival

[superior]

I live in the coast range or Oregon. What weapon,cast boolit,reloading kit and caliber would be the best choice to have in a huge ammo box in my truck if I had to survive in a shtf situation? I have a lyman accu-press that I use to make ammo on location. I own an sks paratrooper,colt AR-15, a heavy barreled Savage 110-gv in .223, a Rem 700bdl in 7mm mag, a savage 116 stainless in .338 win mag. and a glock 23 in 40sw. I left out my shotguns and 22's since I wont be casting boolits for them. Also I would like to know what other calibers and weapons you guys might choose if you were in that situation. thanks
All suggestions will be seriously considered since x-mas is approaching and I may purchase a new toy! I would want to be able to cast boolits in a tent.:-?

[Gunslinger]

You do pack a lotta firepower! I myself a true fan of the .338 also like the AR-15, never leave home without a semiauto prefereply a rifle. A glock can't shoot for crap, everybody knows that, but you sure can shoot rapid fire :Fire:.

In your case I'd go with a Freedom Arms Model 83 in .475 with a 4" barrel. The perfect balance between size and devestating knock down power! In close range combat with predators it will no doubt provide you with a great advantage.

Aside from that, I really can't see what someone like you would actually need. But of course one never can have enough firepower I recon :redneck:.

Everytime I get another piece, I say to myself "Son, lets take a break from the acquiring of guns now shall we?"! But hey, who am I kidding?? :confused:

[superior]

So you think I should forget about a rifle and just go with a side-arm? I cant help thinking that in a survival situation I might be better served with some sort of shoulder fired weapon. I would no doubt have my pistol with me but I'd like to be able to use a rifle for long range accuracy so I could keep the stew pot going, not to mention long range protection from others who might want to take what I have. Remember also I would like to be able to cast boolits for both rifle and handgun. My friend say's he'd go with the sks because there are some good moulds available for it and I could download for small game or hit deer with full power loads( paper patch?) Whaddaya think?

[jdgabbard]

I live in the coast range or Oregon. What weapon,cast boolit,reloading kit and caliber would be the best choice to have in a huge ammo box in my truck if I had to survive in a shtf situation? I have a lyman accu-press that I use to make ammo on location. I own an sks paratrooper,colt AR-15, a heavy barreled Savage 110-gv in .223, a Rem 700bdl in 7mm mag, a savage 116 stainless in .338 win mag. and a glock 23 in 40sw. I left out my shotguns and 22's since I wont be casting boolits for them. Also I would like to know what other calibers and weapons you guys might choose if you were in that situation. thanks
All suggestions will be seriously considered since x-mas is approaching and I may purchase a new toy! I would want to be able to cast boolits in a tent.:-?

Well, you certainly bring up a wide variety of questions in such a short paragraph. What you are asking for requires a VERY broad answer that ultimately only yourself can answer.

First off, you state a SHTF situation. With this I am assuming that your looking at putting together a bug-out kit should we experience a so-called "Decline of the Western Civilization." Such a kit should give you the ability to be self-sufficient, in a time of crisis. But ultimately should be nothing more then a means to get where you plan on going. The theory being that you have a lightweight package that you would be able to carry by yourself or with immediate family members in order to get out of harms way.

In my opinion, such a kit should contain the following:

1 - A dependable rifle. One that is duel purpose. In other words, one that could be used both for taking of game as well as protection. (Your SKS fits nicely into this category, in my opinion)

2 - A dependable sidearm. I personally believe in what I like to call "Efficient Effectiveness" when it comes to these. I believe that having something that WILL do the job with the highest efficiency is key. I personally hate Glocks, and when working as a LEO carried a HK USP in 40. However, that was when I was working. When I carry concealed I carry a 357mag. This type of firearm is what fits my needs.

3 - A supply of ammo for both. Now this is where I am probably going to receive some ridicule from the Cast Boolit Crowd. When it comes to taking of game with either the rifle or a handgun just about any cast boolit of proper velocity and with a wide enough metlap, weight, and proper alloy should suffice. However, in personal opinion (notice how I keep using that phrase), I see the need for "J-word" ammo for protection. Lets be realistic. If you want to be able to take down the bad guy, whether wearing body armor or not, you need some FMJ. How much of each kind of ammo is a decision only you can make. However, personally I have decided that approx. 50-100 for hunting and 200+ is acceptable for defense of oneself with rifle. While probably 50 and 50 for the handgun.

4 - If you plan on reloading on in the sticks here is something you are going to have to consider. Ingots, primers, powder, dies, a hand press, ect is going to be VERY heavy to lug around. My suggestion on such is to leave these thing on where you plan on going. Reason being, boolits can be carried along with you. But primers and powder can get wet and unusable, and carrying along ingots a pot, molds, press, dies and the other stuff is really being unrealistic. Its almost too much gear for a so-called "bug-out kit." But if you JUST HAVE TO DO IT. Get a LEE hand press, a set of dies, a supply of already cast boolits, primers, a can of powder, ect. Have in a separate bag (preferably one that is somewhat water resistant).

5 - Enough food to get you where you need to go.

6 - Some clothing, including cold weather gear.

7 - A sufficient medical kit.

8 - A small FM radio.

9 - A good Grid System type map of the area you are going to be occupying, if at all possible.

10 - The other little odds and ends that one might find useful. However, keep in mind that once the other stuff is added to the "kit" it is going to take up the Bulk of what your going to want to lug around weight/size wise.


Now, as said before...This is just my opinion on what should be in a bug-out kit. But to be honest with you, the only way I see SHTF atm is should something like Katrina happen. You're only going to need to have what it takes to get out of harms way. Lets be "realistic." Red Dawn is NOT going to happen. At least for the time being. But should civil unrest happen, it is good to be prepared to protect yourself and to have the tools necessary to make it to safety.

My .02

[docone31]

.54 Caliber Hawken, or Lyman Plains rifle in flintlock, patch knife, gut knife, Bowie knife.
20lbs lead made into a container, powder filling the container.
Good boots!
Add a mold for the Hawken, a ladle, and you are off to the races!
You can shave with your patch knife, you will need soap untill you can make your own. Save the chips for shaving.
I have also found reciever sights helpful.
Flint lasts a long time.
The container is used with the powder. As the horn is filled, the space left in the container is melted for the balls. The container is resealed.
A trapois is helpful for transporting everything.
Learn to be stealthful. One slow shot, pick it well.

[superior]

All good ideas. I bought a box of hornady 180 grain cast boolits about 16 years ago and I still
have about 200 of them loaded and ready to go. I know jhp's are probably more effective but I cant help thinking that I wouldnt want to be shot with one of the 180 grain cast hornady's at 800 or so fps. I may have watched too many westerns lol. Why the fm radio and not am? Anyway I do have a huge ammo box in the truck to hold my weapons-survival kit. My Lyman accu-press is a hand press that can be converted to bench press by reversing the handle. Primers wont take up much space but lead ingots might. thanks for the ideas !

[superior]

I like docone31's ideas the best so far. With flintlock there is no need for primers! It sounds like he's thought of this scenario already. The jeremiah johnson approach makes the most sense to me so far. Awesome idea except personal defense might require a repeater. Maybe the hangun could be the back-up for the flint-lock.

[docone31]

John Rambo has a support crew, grips, makeup team, and he can remake many remakes.
This country was settled, and explored, by folks who walked and traveled light.
Many did not make it.
My wife's family traveled west with Daniel Boone.
I got my doctorate years ago, and looked around. I took a Buck knife, a denim jacket, and walked into the woods in Alaska and stayed there for four years.
For hand to hand, marital arts, luck, and the ability to avoid these situations.
In a SHTF, any cut, bruise, and you are walking dead.
I also forgot to mention char cloth, and flint and steel. A person needs to get warm, and eat.
The hardest part, is the silence. There is nothing like it. Also, the knowlege it is an one way street. No one you can trust, they are just hungry and they like your food. Less work for them.
2F powder, and 3F powder can be ground to make 4F for the priming tray.
To really prepare, load up a pack with 100lbs, make a pole that weighs 14lbs, and a tin that weighs 22lbs. Walk for miles a day.
It is amazing how heavy a simple pack can be, and how many bruises you get. A bruise, blister, and your week is done. No walk, no food.
Eating bugs suck. Black flies have an irritant, crawdads are good, but small.
Let us all hope nothing like that happens.
It is amazing how many things we take for granted these days. Warm bed, dry bed. Clean clothes! Dry socks. Driving. It is amazing how many things we can see on foot, and how long it takes to go a mile through WaitABit brush. Also, how many times have I been in a prepared for situation, only to be miles from where my stuff was? All that gathering and it was no where to be seen.
Walk before fighting, fight before being defeated, block before striking, strike before being maimed, maim before being killed, kill before being killed. Always think you have no resource so you are not putting yourself into a situation. They come easily enough.
A strong man can walk away from a fight without losing honour.

[Bret4207]

I keep the handgun ya got, trade all the magnums in for cash and buy a lot of SKS ammo and a decent 22 lr repeater and 3 or 4 110 conibear traps. Given a decent cap on the truck for shelter, a decent sleeping bag and enough fuel you should be okay. The AR I'd keep but not in my truck where it could get stolen. Yugo SKS's are still around for under $200.00. I never thought much of them till I reluctantly bought one. Love it!

I've thought about this stuff a bit but since I'm where people would "bug out" to, defensive situation are more what I think of. There are a few forums around on this stuff. Most will demand you buy at least $5000.00 of rifle, night vision goggles, web gear, etc. I think a guy with a 30-30 and a knack for avoiding trouble would do better than the Mall-Rambos.

[NSP64]

44 mag TC contender with 22lr insert.(saw 1 on Gunbroker the other day) 2000 rounds of 22. 1000 primers lee loader 20 pcs brass 100 cast boolits. Lee TL mold. laddle:drinks:

[jdgabbard]

I've thought about this stuff a bit but since I'm where people would "bug out" to, defensive situation are more what I think of. There are a few forums around on this stuff. Most will demand you buy at least $5000.00 of rifle, night vision goggles, web gear, etc. I think a guy with a 30-30 and a knack for avoiding trouble would do better than the Mall-Rambos.

Amen brother.

[dubber123]

" 30-30 and a knack for avoiding trouble". Hmmm. Well there ya go!

[superior]

Docone31 I'm fascinated! What did you eat mostly? How did you get it? Trapping ? Hunting?
Improvised weapons? Fire-arm? Slingshot? Bugs are high in protein but how did you get a decent meal? How about your shelter ? I attended survival school in the Air Force but they tought us how to survive just long enough to be rescued. Did you catch fish? how?

[rhead]

What Bret said but add a dozen yo-yos for fishing and snares, 2 of the small sized Texas style hoop nets and a enamaled steel pot large enough for processing the tanic acid from acorns if oaks are around. You will starve from lack of carbs quicker than from lack of meat. The pot can also be used for other things also. Most of this isn't to carry it is to have where you are going.
Docone: Make several led mini kegs each able to hold one horn of powder and weighing enough to make a horn's worth of bullets. Then you don't have to worry about triming and resealing. They make good trade goods too. Square ones stack better and don't roll around during transport.
Lost wax (styrofoam) casting. Soider on the top to an EMPTY keglet, drill a 7/16 hole to fill, then plug the hole by hammering in a .45 cal. bullet.

[wiljen]

I like the contender with 2 ten inch barrels w/ iron sights. 1 in 45/410 the other in 22 lr. that gives me a game getter for all manner of critter short of stuff too big to eat in a few meals anyway. (not counting on being able to refrigerate anything) I'd also take my model 27 6 inch and carry ammo. I have plenty of 45s 410s 22s and 357s and they take up less room and weight than about any other set of rounds. I'd like to grab a 12 gauge pump gun as well but could make due with just the two handguns if I had too. My med kit would be my heaviest single item.

[superior]

Oviously I still have aLOT to learn when it comes to survival skills! (mini-kegs,resealing a lead container), I dont even know what a patch knife is ! I have wire for snares, hooks and line for fishing. I suppose I should study the local edibles in my area to prevent carb starvation. I looked up trapois in dictionary.com and could'nt find it . Here in Oregon we get alot of rain and I would worry about keeping my powder dry.

[Scrounger]

Do you possibly mean travois? There are such things...

[Blammer]

you need a 30-06, this is a fighting cartridge and that will serve you well, with jacketed or cast.

of all that you mentioned, I'd go with the SKS, provided you have an ample supply of cases for reloading.

IMO, the 223 and 338 are not real "survival" rounds. 223 being very fickle and meticleous, not something you want in the great out doors. The 338, good luck on finding components for that, ie more brass or moulds if need be.

7mm, maybe but I'd go with the 30 cal for sure.

Get a good plain base boolit for the 30 cal, find a load that is miserly on powder and accurate and powerfull enough for game and you'll be set.

[docone31]

Superior,
I lived by scavenging.
Sometimes I ate well, sometimes I went very hungry. Hungry indeed.
I slept in a snow cave. I would hollow out the snow, and live inside.
Fishing, I made a pike.
Animals usually leave something. I never was an hunter. Sometimes it got real bad.
I never stole, never begged.
I do not know how much longer I could have done it though.

[superior]

!@#$% !! I hope it never comes down to that ! That is one ugly thought! It gives Thanksgiving a whole new meaning! You have my utmost respect and I salute you sir. You were able to do what many others including myself may not be capable of. They say the sheer will to survive is the most important aspect of survival and no doubt, you had the will power to accomplish more than others will in our lifetime. My hat is off to you. I can only imagine the appreciation you EARNED for the simple pleasures of life we take for granted.
Thanks for honoring me with your advice, docone31.

[docone31]

Nah Dude. No honour there.
My fourth exwife took me for the ride of my life.
I was mostly hoping I would die.
Maybe that was what it took. I had nothing to lose.
The severe damage from exposure, the feeling of alienation from everyone, everything.
That was almost 20yrs ago.
I still suffer today.
Next time I will wait for Pay Per View.
I got into a severe jackpot in the outback, and I had to do something. My only thoughts were to tell my only child, I was not ashamed of him. My father left me with that, and I did not want to let my child feel the same way.
Let him make his own mistakes, not repeat his father's like I did mine.
After many years of healing, I did indeed tell him.
He told me he was never under that cloud. He might have been though.
I still cannot sleep in a bed. I still hoard food. It drives my wife nuts. She lets me be though.
She did tell me I am a good cook. Kinda unusual meals, but she likes them. I still only use one fork, knife, and plate. I clean them immediately.
She just leaves leftovers around. It drives me nuts! I remember the scavengers.
I cannot even imagine surviving in warm weather. I hate to sweat.

[Blammer]

if you bug out, just remember, one "redneck roadblock" and you'll be a pedestrian.

I'd not bug out, I'll just stay where I'm at.

and as far as going to the mountains? There's folks already there an they don't want you. :)

[HeavyMetal]

What to add this post!

All the center fire stuff is good to have but I would not use any of it as my main survival weapon.

It was mentioned that walking from a fight was the smartest move and I agree to a certain extent. Keeping from being detected may be a more apt suggestion!

I would think the loud report of a 223 or 338 going off in the quiet woods/ desert/ sea coast might atract un wanted foragers.

So for me a quality, accurate 22 rifle would be the first thing in that truck!

This would have minimal recoil, minimal noise level and would allow me to pack a butt load of ammo in a small container or pocket! Being under gunned would also keep me from sticking my nose where it didn't belong and help me live longer I think!

Lots of sense to have bigger stuff, if you have a way to transport and store. If this is a walking, packing senario the 22 wins hands down!

In an end of the world senario what you take is a crap shoot. In a my truck slid down the mountain and I can't get up senario you'll have different needs.

Most good suggestion for the truck problem have been listed and I won't double up on those.

Suffice it to say you need to take a good hard look at what you want to survive and then select your gear based on that!

[Boerrancher]

I also like the idea of a bolt action 30-06, most of them shoot cast and jacketed well. Components are easy to find as well as loaded ammo. Also, in a pinch you can fire a 308 out of it if you happen to find some 308 rounds laying around. They may not be as accurate as the right round but they will fire and not harm the rifle. A friend of mine in Special Forces liked to carry a single action large cal revolver like the old 3 screw Blackhawk, or some of the colt replica's like the uberti's, because he could shoot it with the left hand and load it at the same time with his right. His favorite was his old 3 screw blackhawk in a 357.

For me, I live in a very secluded area, so I think of defending it, and being able to get back to it if I am away from it. I Keep a survival bag of sorts in my truck. In it there is 3 MRE,s, 3 16 oz bottles of water, magnesium block w/flint, Buckmaster knife, a few fish hooks, line and sinkers, an army poncho w/liner, a full change of winter clothes, and 5 pair of socks and 1 pair of boots, and a box of 45 L.C. ammo, all of this is wrapped in 2 heavy black trash bags before being stuffed in the rick sack. I keep a rifle and pistol both chambered for the 45 LC in my truck as well. The only time they come out is to shoot them, clean them or pack them while I am running fence or checking the fields.

The army taught me that I could survive and function well on 1 MRE a day or less. 16 oz of water per day not enough if I am out for more than 3 days, but the black trash bags can be used for a solar still. I keep winter clothes packed year round because I don't want to have to mess with repacking for each season. If it is summer time, I just wouldn't wear all of the clothes. Socks are critical, if you are on foot you need to change your socks every couple hours to keep your feet from blistering.

Back to the main topic of discussion as for as a SHTF gun, for traveling to a safe place, I prefer a rifle pistol combo that fire the same round. I don't intend on putting up a fight or making a stand, I plan to make it home, and avoid any contact with any other humans. I can Kill anything here in North America with my 45 LC, and If I have to I can dispatch targets out to nearly 200 yards with the rifle, and the blackhawk will eliminate threats inside of 75 yards. There is something to be said for a lever gun, "and a knack for avoiding trouble."

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[waksupi]

if you bug out, just remember, one "redneck roadblock" and you'll be a pedestrian.

I'd not bug out, I'll just stay where I'm at.

and as far as going to the mountains? There's folks already there an they don't want you. :)


Yep. If problems arise, and you head to the mountains, it would be good to keep in mind, YOU would be the invader on some one's home turf. If I really wanted to hide out, I'd head for the Missouri Breaks, and there are people over there that may not be happy to have visitiors, either!

[HCL]

One thing to consider with the 223, assuming things are bad enough to cause you to depart your home in a hurry, 223/5.56mm ammo would probally pretty readily availible from many sources. You may have to get creative and do things you would never consider, but 223/5.56 will be everywhere. And at that point if you are not getting creative you wont last long.
Another thing, a boolit (just the lead) out of a 22lr stuffed in a 223 brass with a case full of varget will kill just about anything you want out to about 100yrds with a properly placed shot. (approx same as 36gr Varmint grenade) After a 100yrds accuracy falls off pretty quick and based on a 36 or 40gr boolit, you need to make good shots. Which with a 223/5.56 rifle and 22 pistol you would be pretty set for a while. Without having to cast anything or carry a ton of ammo, powder etc. Leaving time and convience to work your way to where you have pre-positioned you casting stuff and more sutable wpns, survival stuff etc, etc.
Just remember, chamber pressure differances of 223 and Mil spec 5.56 will take a toll pretty quick on a 223 if not chambered for 5.56 also.
Yes there is a diameter differance in 22lr and 223 (.224) but at close range you will never notice, unless you are shooting mice.
Just my two cents..
Mike

[Gun Junkie]

I'm in the 22 crowd. A backpack with food, water, knife, sharpner, tarp, blanket and socks. A brick of good 22 and a browning take-down 22. Maybe a stainless centerfire handgun with a box of ammo.

Lead and water are really heavy. I don't really think very many of us could survive more than short term without some kind of support. Heck most of us would have to bring a couple of months prescriptions as the first item in the pack.

In your scenario, you should only have to make it a few weeks on your own. I think you could return in a month to a much less crowded place...

If you want to practice some, just learn to live without electricity, gas, water, sewer and TV.

[MT Gianni]

I keep a bag of 100+ rds of 20 gauge shells and a case of 500 LR 22 for the savage 24. 50 of the shotgun shells are #4, 25 are #7, 15 are slugs and 15 are #3 buckshot. There may be more in there from day to day. I will grab whatever hangun the situation needs from 9, 357, 44 or either 45 and some ammo from the drawer by the bag and be gone in 5 minutes. I do need more bateries for the red dot. Gianni

[45nut]

On foot and heading for refuge,, makes you a refugee. I would venture some make it and more don't.

Bugging out for less than nuclear or firestorm type events should be avoided, I carry a "GMH" kit now, a "Get Me Home" kit. I won't go into the details of the event that woke me up, but I make sure I do have food and water in my vehicle.

A small survival sleeping bag, rope, matches and a lighter, there are a few essential items that can make or break you and believe me, being broken sucks.

A gun is quite secondary to most survival situations, a gun is merely a tool and a very basic one.

[madcaster]

Docone31,
Youuns and weuns think alike!
I just love them smokepoles,and while we are different from other responses,surviving is also about NOT being seen!:drinks:

[Boerrancher]

Yep. If problems arise, and you head to the mountains, it would be good to keep in mind, YOU would be the invader on some one's home turf. If I really wanted to hide out, I'd head for the Missouri Breaks, and there are people over there that may not be happy to have visitiors, either!

Not trying to be rude here, but we really don't want visitors. We will be busy enough keeping the dead beats from St Louis and Kansas City beat off. There are some places not far south of my place that I don't even venture.

Just remember the book, Deliverance, was written about Deliverance Missouri. The movie was too Hollywood, and did not do the people or the area justice.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[GabbyM]

Their's a lot to be said for having two years of food in dry stores. Not that I do.
If we ever have a crop failure in this country we are in lots of trouble. What food their is would be very expensive.

If you look at history as a guide it's usually famine that brings about the worst hardship.

Trick is to figure out a way to keep your stash secret.

[docone31]

Warning! Warning! Warning!
Watch out for keeping food for an extended period of time.
We live in Hurricane country, and my wife is from the Left Coast. My new wife.
She loses her mind during the season, and all we watch is the Weather Channel.
We went on Safari to the local chain grocery store.
We packed out home with Granola Bars, Energy Bars, Healthy Cookies, High Fiber Bars, crap like that. If it was Green she got it.
I got rice, canned goods, made our well hand pump adaptable.
The season came and went, so did another. One day, when our shop had us too busy to get to the Safari Trading Post, we decided to break into the YUK energy bars. They had raisons, lots of fiber, much advertising promoting how no seal got injured in harvesting oats. Etc.
There was nothing left!
The crap was so Green, the Weevils from inside the packages ate their way out! I mean everything. My rice was ok, my cans were ok, my well was ok, her Label water was now green coloured, all her dried goods were et.
The critters eat their way out!
Cookies, fruit and nut bars, my flour was ok, everything Green was gone! I mean everything! My raisen cookies, commecially cooked and packaged, were ok, her Organic crap was toast. I mean nothing left.
I tossed it out, and the garbage dog who usually scatters our garbage everywhere at night, left it alone. It was one of the few cans we put out that wasn't scattered everywhere.
When Dr. Strangelove plays his tune, if it is Green, it is usually gone.
Could be what Green is all about. Built in obsolescence in disguise.
Just our experience. Might help someone.
And, for those who might wonder, she no longer is worried about saving the Fire Ants.
I thought I had seen everything, but I was wrong. She ended up with one bite too many one day, out came the Andro and I was married to a woman on a mission! Glad it wasn't at me, yet.
She is a crack shot now. .308 is her favourite caliber. First day shooting, she touched off over 500rds. After she saw how long it took me to reload it, she got me a turret press for Christmas.
I told her, if you cannot kiss the barrel, do not shoot it.
She did it once, then slowed down. That is with her bolt gun! She can do a clover at 100 now, and is going to do some paper patching.
Watch what you store for long term storage.

[PatMarlin]

Interesting thread.

I moved to God's country here to have a better life for me and my family away from city folk. Most of us in these parts do not want to be bothered, so like Ric and Joe mentioned, newcomers need to keep that in mind.

That being said if you don't have the means to own your own house or land and want to be independant, I would have no trouble living in a pickup with at least a good shell. You could stay mobile and there's many places in this country you can camp and sleep and not be bothered.

I second the side arm 45 cal Blackhawk. I think it's very easy to carry whether you have a rifle or not, and for emergncy firepower or taking game under 100 yrds it can't be beat.

Far as a rifle- I'm seriously thinking about building a 300 whisper out of my Howa SS. All weather and quiet, plus easy on ammo.

What do you guys think about a sxs double black powder percussion shotgun? I've got my eye on one as we speak.

[OeldeWolf]

Food Storage is an definitely misunderstood science. I am Mormon, and we are encouraged to have a stock on hand.

Grains and grain productsa store best in such things as nitrogen packaging. Bugs can not grow and eat without oxygen. Most meat and protein products need to be specially prepared and/or canned. Textured vegetable proteins can be packed in Nitrogen like the grains.

Commercially packed goods, packed in manners intended for long term storage, almost always last longer than home preserved, except for canned or bottled goods.

Rotation and replacement are important! One recommendation was to buy a two year suppply, and live off one year's worth. Then replace it at the end of the year, and eat off the older year's worth. This also means you get to learn what you can prepare and like. And accustoms you to your supplies, so as to avoid intestinal upsets.

A several month's supply of any prescriptions is an essential part of any survival kit.

As an alternative to the mountains, a large enough seagoing vessel may be a good idea. Fish in the oceans, wind can do for motive power, and distillation can provide drinking water. Plus, if you are a part of a group instead of an individual/couple/family, you have more skills to draw on, and people to stand watch.

[Lloyd Smale]

i personaly dont think that if shtf wed be in a survival mode that required walking through the woods eating bugs. survival will probably intale defending your home. If you need to "bug out" you probably wont want to take a whole arsenal with you. What i would take is a good semi auto 22 rifle like a 1022 with high capasity mags and a few bricks of ammo. An ar15 would definately be along for the ride. 500 rounds each of soft point and ball ammo and a good handgun. theres where the tough desision would come. I love 1911s and the 45 but the 9 would probably be more practical. Easier to haul ammo. Ammo is probably going to be easier to come accross if you run out. Another way to go would be a 44 mag. theres not many stores in the country that sell ammo that dont have 44 mags. I agree with superior in that not many of us including yours truely would survive long if he had to depend on his feet to survive. Or even on finding food in the woods so the first thing you need to do is get some army rations and water and extra gasoline. A tent and sleeping bag. Flashlights and extra batterys. A dozen bic lighters. So basic pots and pans and a couple rolls of toliet paper. There good for starting fires and for other things ;) I dont think id waste my time with loading or casting gear. If a guy went through the ammo i recomended youd either be done with the problem or dead and if you have to abandon your vehicle and go on foot the 22 and a few boxes of ammo are all your going to want to tote along.

[PatMarlin]

OeldeWolf-

Have you ever packaged your grains etc., with CO2? I read where folks put a few squirts in a 5gal bucket and fill it with CO2 from a welding cylinder to remove the oxygen and store dry goods. It will stay there if you don't tip and pout it out, so you can access you food, and put the lid back on as needed.

I going to build a dry root cellar this spring, and ramp up on our stored foods. We're still eating can goods- dried grains, beans, pasta, and popcorn that are 8 years old, and still as new.

[superior]

The members or this forum offer a wealth of experience and knowledge. I was able to come away with at least one useful idea from all of you. After careful consideration I have come to the following conclusion: After burying my other weapons, I will be best served with one of my 4 22lr semi's and a gob of ammo. I own a 10-22 w/tasco 4x, a 10-22T w/leupold 3x9, a remington nylon apache 77 with 5 and 10 rd. mags (unscoped) and a remington model 241
(no scope). Given those choices, which 22 would you guys take with? Thanks all.

[PatMarlin]

I think I probably would be best off with what I started with a 10 years old...

My Marlin 39a take down, and my 12ga 870 remington. Pretty hard to beat that eh?

I hitchhiked and back packed with my 39a, just like the one shown in my avatar, all over the country when I was 15-16 years old. It's by the grace of God that rifle did not get stolen, or beat up. Same with myself I would imagine... :mrgreen:

[docone31]

10/22
First, I would exchange the extractor. The factory extractor wears out at the wrong time possible. Second, I would put in a new firing pin. Third, put on the recoil pad that is 1".
It is not that the 10/22 has so much recoil it needs buffering, the extra length makes a big difference in sighting. At least with the factory stock.
This is what I have done with mine, and it makes a large difference. The stove pipes stopped with the extractor, it is much more accurate with the different firing pin. I would also have stock clips on hand. The extra cap clips make the rifle hard to handle outside the range.
Definately the 10/22.

[superior]

Thanks Pat, but I dont Yet own a Mariln and My wife thinks I have too many 22's already. I can justify another caliber this x-mas but I am left with the choice of one of the 22's I already own. The remington 241 is based on the browning design and is a takedown that loads 10 rounds through the butstock. I can hit empty shotgun shells at 25 yards everytime with no problem leaning over the hood of my truck. I wonder if it is the best candidate.

[NickSS]

I have done some survival work bth intentional and unintentional in wilderness areas. The main need is to keep dry, warm and fed. Likely you will either hook up with a few other people or be alone depending upon the situation. You need to have a weapon for both protection and food gathering. I have thought long and hard on this and of all the several hundred rifles I have owned (I have examples of everything you got plus others) I think I would take either a Marlin or Winchester lever action in 30-30 as my bug out rifle. This is for two reasons. Ammo can be found almost anywhere and it is an easy cartridge to reload with cast bullets and get good results for any game from rabbits to elk. Another thing is that the rifle is light and handy. You will carry it far more than shoot it. You will also need a good knife, first aid kit, water purifying tablits, sleeping bag, tent, matches etc. A good canteen will be a life saver (yours). I would also take a good 357 mag revolver either DA or SA for last ditch defense in a social situation. As for casting supplies I would not take molds, lead etc with me I would preposition them where i am going. I would load and take with me a good load of ammo but not more than cold be comfortably carried. Considering that Louis and Clark went clean accross the country an spent a couple of years doing so they really used very few rounds per day of ammo. During one two week survival trip I fired exactly four rounds of ammo and had plenty to eat. Oh yea take fishing line and hooks along.

[rbstern]

I've taken a liking to fixing beat up, old Marlin 60s, and the last one I did had a "survival" theme to it. The stock was trashed, so I tried one of the ATI skeleton stocks that are available for the Marlin 60 and Ruger 10/22. The barrel was bulged toward the muzzle, so it had to be cut down, now it's 16 1/8". Handy length, particularly with the pistol grip of the ATI stock. Mounted to the stock are: a small multi-tool/flashlight in a holster, a 2" fixed blade S&W knife, 50 feet of wrapped paracord, and a short length of aluminum arrow shaft that holds 9 rounds of 22LR, which can quickly be dumped into the tube magazine. None of these items interferes with the functioning or carrying of the rifle. The stock also has a small semi-hidden compartment behind the trigger guard that is suitable for a small amount of cash, medicine, matches, fishing line/hooks, etc.

I wouldn't want to be lugging a scope around through the woods on an extended stay, or I'd at least want an easily removable mount setup to revert to iron sights if the optics went bad.

http://www.zjstech.net/gunstuff/images/sar7.JPG

[superior]

That rifle looks like a tough and capable food gatherer. A friend of mine says he can reload 22 rimfire ammo by adding water to match-heads, making a paste which when poured into a fired 22lr case and allowed to dry, makes a good priming compound. He says he then stuffs a " single0 buck" pellet into the case mouth and the result is a usable round of ammo good for small game hunting if the distances are kept short. That might come in handy if all ammo is outlawed one day. The chances of the firing pin striking in the exact location on the rim is very slim. I would also add a grain or so of powder if I had some.

[Scrounger]

Not to contest your statement nor diminish their accomplishment, but didn't I read somewhere that they used some large caliber air rifles for hunting? No doubt they had black powder rifles as well...

[madcaster]

The Ruger 10/22,seconded!

[cajun shooter]

One handgun, one rifle, and one shotgun. If you are good with your skills you can aquire all thats needed with these and I mean if you need a different gun, food supplies, whatever to keep going. You did say if and when the crap got started. So I mean you take what firearm you have and get more. During WW11 we dropped plane loads of a little gun called the Liberator. It was a smooth bore single shot with extra rounds in the grip. The French used these to get better weapons. So I'm saying you don't have to have a deuce and half full of supplies to survive. Use the KISS theory.

[superior]

I need to correct my earlier statement on the homemade survival 22 rounds. I dont think a "single 0 buck pellet is the correct diameter to fit in the 22 case. I'ts probably another size pellet. If someone has a recent box of federal buchshot, it list the diameters of the various buck pellts.

[runfiverun]

if you really want to go that route
you might wanna take a look to the past. a rifle of rugged construction and with a bit of firepower,and a hand gun of the same caliber.
these can fire the same loads,same cast boolits, same primers. etc.
44 mag or 45 colt comes to mind.
pure or near pure lead can be used if necessary.
you have to think flexability. with these types of guns even home made black can be used.
try that in an sks.

[Mavrick]

SHTF situation...Hmmm.
Live in a pickup w/camper...Hmmm, done that. When I was trapping, life was interesting. That's done in the winter, you know. BTW, I live in Nevada, which in Spanish means "covered with snow."
After you've used about 1/2 a tank of fuel, ya might top it off at the nearest AM/PM...whoops...no deliveries.
put several 5-gal cans full in the back. Oh, oh...They'll take up the space of your ammo, food and clothes...Hmmm, I'll get back to you on that.
Long-range rifle? Too easy to miss, Anything over about 200yds is too far to cause trouble, anyway. You want a rifle that will drop a target with one, poor, hit. Ammo for anything is too hard to get hold of. Shoot closer.
Shortrange, semiauto with a midrange cartridge? SKS, AK, or AR? What's reloading got to do with that? Those guns throw their cases all over CREATION! I doubt you're gonna pick up cases in the middle of a situation...Whoops, that's what kids are for.
Big bore handgun...Hmmm. How fast can you shoot...accurately? How quick can you shoot, well?
Shotgun...Large, heavy shells, with no real range.
Food...Have you thought about Long Pig? There's plenty of it, and I hear it doesn't taste TOO bad. They're not hard to kill, and a .22lr will work well enough.
Remember, this is SHTF situation. Interesting to think about, but anything BUT fun to go through.
It's off-track, but, reloading, and casting are fun, but not life-saving.
Have fun,
Gene

[Scrounger]

I wonder how many here know what "long pig" is? I do but I read a lot...

[Mavrick]

LOL, me, too, Scrounger.

[osage]

Had to look that one up. Not some thing that most people would think of right off.

[Gohon]

Food...Have you thought about Long Pig? There's plenty of it, and I hear it doesn't taste TOO bad. They're not hard to kill, and a .22lr will work well enough.

Hmmmmmm..............well if it comes to that I'm afraid we'll be at the point where the weapon of choice will be a sharp stick or a big rock.

[Bret4207]

Comon'! Any kid that read his Robert Louis Stevenson and other pirate books knows what makes a cannibal a cannibal. Even Capt Jack Sparrow mentioned "long Pig" in his last movie. I understand you want to cook it REALLY WELL DONE.

Personally, I'll eat rats first.

[Scrounger]

Some of the "long pig'' you'd eat would be "rats"....

[MT Gianni]

[QUOTE

I going to build a dry root cellar this spring, and ramp up on our stored foods. We're still eating can goods- dried grains, beans, pasta, and popcorn that are 8 years old, and still as new.[/QUOTE]
Pat, I grew up with a dry cellar. It worked well but you do need some winter and it needs to be kept dry. Root vegetables were good until around June, by then you could eat early spring stuff. The key was two doors to keep temps uniform and leep it dry.
Gianni, who has never been interested in eating long pig and hope sto never see those circumstances. It does help to live in a county with 4-5 times the livestock as human populations.

[monadnock#5]

The life of a Shanghaied sailor was a miserable existence, but you did your job to the best of your ability so as not to hear the cook announce "long pork" on the evenings menu.

IIRC, it was in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina that a group of non-minority types tried to escape NO by crossing a bridge towards the west. They were met by law enforcement types from the jurisdiction at the other end of the bridge, and informed that they should turn around and go back before they were met with great harm. They did, so we will never know just how determined the law enforcement types were to see no refugees crossed that bridge.

When the SHTF, you'd better already be where you want to be, or hunker down as best you can.

[randyrat]

What ever guns you decide on don't mater if you starve from lack of nutrients or carbs. Learn your native plants and nuts such as; Acorns ,lambs quarter,pine nuts ect..... For example Acorns have 6 vitimins, 8 minerals, 18 amino acids and easy to harvist and go good with wild meat. The Tannins that you get off of the acorns can be stored for later use such as; antiseptic,
Tanning hides ect..
Lambs quarter (considered a weed) tast like mild spinage, has a lot of nutrients, easy to harvest and easy to cook( i have eaten this many times)

For a gun/guns i would go light with plenty of ammo, small caliber stainless revolver ie.....357 ,44 mag Thats of course if you need to go light. You can carry more 357 mag rds than 44s. Some people are better with a 357 revolver than most with a rifle at 100 yards. There is nothing more dependible than a good revolver (no magazines to rust or lose) Learn your wild food you can always trade food for guns and ammo.

[OeldeWolf]

Pat Marlin:

My mom packed several 5 gallon buckets of grain using CO2 some years back. As I recall, they were ok for a year or so, but after about 5 years she had to throw them out, as they were full of weevils.

My thought is that it is difficult to thoroughly replace all the air in the bucket with CO2. There are a LOT of little tiny airpockets in grain. I have heard that putting a chunk of dry ice in the bottom will let the gas permeate the grain slowly from the bottom up, displacing atmosphere. I think that may be how my mom did it.

But every time you dip some out, or open the container, atmosphere will get mixed into the CO2 environment. Especially if you remove material, in which case the volume will be refilled by normal atmosphere.

I see no reason why CO2 could not work almost as well as Nitrogen as a preserving gas. But you might consider vacuum packing the grain along with a chunk of dry ice, and a pressure venting, to try and get more of the air replaced with CO2. Get rid of as much air as you can, right from the start. A few such episodes on each container may also be effective. And renewing the CO2 every couple of years may also help.

IIRC, the nitrogen packed stuff is first evacuated, in commercial operations, then filled. I may have also run across a commercial process that used a nitrogen lance to bubble N2 through a loose product, and lots of overflow, to purge air from the materials.

I will call my mom tomorrow, and see which method she used. I am betting on the dry ice, myself.

At home, every time I buy a new package of flour, I place it in the deep freeze for a few weeks. Kills any bugs that may have managed to get into the flour, and any eggs as well. Good, hard freeze. :)

[Scrounger]

How about putting the CO2 in the bucket first and pouring the grain through it? Gravity should cause the grain to go through the CO2 and the lighter O2 should rise out of the bucket. A valve arrangement could be installed on the bucket to recharge the CO2 periodically. But I like the vacuum pack idea better.

[Lloyd Smale]

problem with that is if you have an abundance of food you made yourself a target. Also in a good many shtf senerios you will be forced away from your home. Canned food is great if you can stay but is way to heavy and takes up to much space if you have to bug out. Dried food is the way to go. A guys should keep enough military rations and water for at least a week for his family. After that im sorry to say im TAKING what i need. How many people that live in the north dont even own a quality set of boots or jacket and pants that will allow them to survive for short periods of time in the woods in the winter. Up here the cold would kill as many as lack of food and water. Just having the electricity go out for a couple weeks in the winter would kill thousands. Nobody anymore even prepares for something that is as easy to happen as that.
[QUOTE

I going to build a dry root cellar this spring, and ramp up on our stored foods. We're still eating can goods- dried grains, beans, pasta, and popcorn that are 8 years old, and still as new.
Pat, I grew up with a dry cellar. It worked well but you do need some winter and it needs to be kept dry. Root vegetables were good until around June, by then you could eat early spring stuff. The key was two doors to keep temps uniform and leep it dry.
Gianni, who has never been interested in eating long pig and hope sto never see those circumstances. It does help to live in a county with 4-5 times the livestock as human populations.[/QUOTE]

[Boerrancher]

if you really want to go that route
you might wanna take a look to the past. a rifle of rugged construction and with a bit of firepower,and a hand gun of the same caliber.
these can fire the same loads,same cast boolits, same primers. etc.
44 mag or 45 colt comes to mind.
pure or near pure lead can be used if necessary.
you have to think flexability. with these types of guns even home made black can be used.
try that in an sks.

Pretty much what I said at the start of this thread. Can't beat a rifle pistol combo that shoots the same ammo, and that will shoot the Holy Black almost as good as smokeless.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[PatMarlin]

Here's some info I found awhile back:


DRY-PACK OF BULK STORAGE FOOD ITEMS IN PLASTIC BUCKETS

For plastic buckets to be used as dry food storage containers, they should be made of food grade plastic and have a gasketed lid. Carbon dioxide is an effective treatment method for preventing weevil infestation in dry-pack items stored in plastic buckets.

The presence of carbon dioxide in concentrations above 3% is adequate to kill weevils in closed containers. Treatment methods, which depend on the absence of oxygen to kill weevils, such as oxygen absorbers and nitrogen gas flushing, are not always effective in plastic buckets due to the potential for oxygen leakage.

The two common methods of CO2 treatment of buckets are dry ice and gas flushing.

INSTRUCTIONS FOR DRY ICE TREATMENT OF DRY-PACK BUCKETS
1. Use approximately 1 oz. of dry ice per gallon of container size.
2. Wipe frost crystals from the dry ice using a clean towel.
3. Place the dry ice in the center of the container bottom.
4. Pour the food on top of the ice and fill the container to within 1 to 2 inches of the top.
5. Place the lid on top of the container and snap it down only about 1/2 way around the container.
6. Allow CO2 gas to escape from the partially sealed lid as the dry ice evaporates.
7. Allow the dry ice to evaporate completely before sealing. To see if the ice is all gone, feel the bottom of the container. If it is still cold, it has not all evaporated.
8. Monitor the container for a few minutes after sealing the lid. If bulging occurs, slightly lift the edge of the lid to relieve pressure.
9. It is normal for the lid of the bucket to eventually pull down slightly as a result of the partial vacuum caused when the CO2 is absorbed into the product.

INSTRUCTIONS FOR CO2 GAS FLUSHING OF DRY-PACK BUCKETS
1. Set up the gas flushing equipment using a cylinder, pressure regulator, and a probe equipped with a pipe extension to reach the bottom of the bucket.
2. With the probe valve open, adjust the regulator to the setting specified:
Granular products (Wheat, Beans, Etc.) 20 lbs
Powdered products (Milk, Flour, Grains, Etc.) approximately 3 lbs
3. Fill the buckets to within 1 to 2 inches of top with food product.
4. Gas flush product with carbon dioxide. Insert the probe to the bottom of the bucket. With the hand valve open, move the probe up and down in a circular motion for the time specified:
Granular products--gas flush for 5 seconds
Powdered products--gas flush for 20 seconds
5. Seal lid immediately on bucket.
6. Wipe off probe with a dry towel when changing from one product to another to avoid cross-contamination of products.

CAUTIONS
Use CO2 in WELL-VENTILATED AREAS only.
Wear gloves when handling dry ice.
Dry-pack only products that are shelf stable. Products must be low in moisture and oil content.
Avoid exposing products to humid, damp conditions when dry-packing.

The only things I would add to their instructions concerns the dry ice packing method. If the container becomes sealed while the dry ice is still outgassing, there is an explosion potential due to gas pressure. While CO2 is not flammable, airborne flour is. Keep in mind that CO2 is heavier than air, and tends to "pool". You can literally "pour" it out of a container (and observe the flow via shadow).
CO2 gas and dry ice are available at most welding shops. Regulators are cheap, around 20-30 dollars. A probe can be made with a length of small copper tubing.
Dry ice can give a nasty frostbite "burn". It will stick to moist skin. Handle with tongs or DRY...I repeat DRY gloves.

[adam38654]

I would like a .357 lever gun but they are not to be found around here. They put out 30-30 ballistics when loaded like buffalo bore.Also a nice rugged revolver like a Ruger 100 or 101 and eventually a S&W. You could run .38's threw them also.

[Scrounger]

I would like a .357 lever gun but they are not to be found around here. They put out 30-30 ballistics when loaded like buffalo bore.Also a nice rugged revolver like a Ruger 100 or 101 and eventually a S&W. You could run .38's threw them also.

That would be my choice too, or maybe I's substitute a .22 pistol for the .357. You can carry a lot of .22 ammo...

[adam38654]

I would also have a .22lr pistol and rifle with at least an ammo can full off ammo. Like a ruger 10/22 auto or 77/22 bolt for rifle and a ruger markIII for a pistol. The beretta bobcats are pretty nice to.

I wish there was a bolt action .357 magnum like the 77/44mag. My uncle has one of the discontinued 10/44's? that is like a .44magnum 10/22.

[StrikerHayes]

Think I would go for a Springfield SOCOM16..20 rd mags. This will do anything from
close quarter combat to hunting. In a 308 you could comfortably hunt anything state side and have plenty of knock down for other situations. Either way ammo maybe more of a concern in your choice, I would pick something in 223, 308's
or 9mm for a handgun. Anything one could get their hands on easily. I'm a die hard handgunner, but I must admit if I had to survive in bad times the handguns would stay home and my rifle would never leave my side.
I like the Hawkin dude...that's down right survival. Only problem is the smoke from the pole.
Not exactly a snipers tool. Good luck.

Adios

[waksupi]

I will suggest a few books that you should have in your arsenal.

U.S. Special Forces Medical Handbook

Ditch Medicine

Where There Is No Dentist.

These cover some of the worst situations you could find yourself in.

[lreed]

Gentlemen;Perhaps your choices can be firmed up after you google " rex 84", read all that is available, this might help your decision.
lreed

[JohnH]

superior,

If I may add some thoughts, Some things are simply not survivalable, and there are a few things one doesn't want to survive.

Having a firearm is a nifty idea, but do you have a silencer? Have you considered that firing the thing is going to alert anyone in the area to your presence? Are they friendlies? Do you know???

In a "bug out" knowing how to successfully make and use snares, an atlatl, even bow and arrow are prolly more useful and far less likely to attract trouble. Remember, anything you do that can attract attention makes you a potential target of someone else looking for a meal, and many won't hesitate to take someone elses.

Can you make a fire without matches? Our ancestors did so for something like 100,000 years. We have forgotten how in less than 200. Once you've started it (regardless of how) can you keep it without proving it to everyone in 5 counties? Our ancestors did......

Learn to eat dog and cat. There'll be lots of 'em and initially at least they will be easy to get. Understand that you will eat a lot more squirrel, bird, raccoon, snake and the like than deer.

Do you garden? If not, then take it up now. Learn to can. Raise chickens or rabbit. Find someone in your area that can show you the local wild edible vegatation, learn it, and use it. Doing so can at once save you money and perhaps save your life.

Survivalism is not the art of weathering the storm, but the art of being self sufficient. Any fool can live by their wits, just ask anyone in jail. The real question is the quality of wit.

In a massive "Collaspe of Western Civilization" there will be lots of jerks with guns waiting for the opportunity to prove their suvivalism machisimo. Surviving them will be no small feat, as most will be neither able to feed themselves nor be good shots, but they will be very dangerous. Sometimes having nothing worth taking can be a great advantage....a gun is something worth taking...... Sometimes being able to take nothing and make something is the only advantage.

Finally, survivalism is a lot of hard damn work, and if you're really good, it is something you will do every day because it is a lifestyle, not an adventure.

[OeldeWolf]

Ok, I checked with my mother on what she had tried. She tried several methods, including the dry ice/CO2 packaging. She does not use much flour, so the wheat was kept for a pretty long time. She says that somethg managed to eat the wheat germ out of what she had stored. Says she thinks the grain came infested, and the CO2 did not kill all of whatever came in with it.

Surrently, she freezes all grain products for a few weeks, to kill all current live things, then seals them up air tight. But she is also not storing that much, either.

She says she has had the greatest success with the commercially preserved/sealed products. Which used to mean Sam Andy, but she says there are now much better products out there, with much higher life spans.

[waksupi]

I'm familiar with the Rex 84 talk. I have come across several people the last few years, who swear they have seen the camps in the mountains, and on the east side of Montana. Funny thing is, when I ask them where they are, so I can see and photograph them myself, they tend to wander off mumbling to thier selves.
I travel the mountains up here a lot and have never seen any logistical road system that would support this, and it would be damn hard to conceal something like this in eastern Montana, where you can stand flat footed and see a hundred miles. So where are these camps? Why won't the "eyewitnesses" give the location? Should I go ahead and shoot these people, as they are obviously a part of the cover up?

[Boerrancher]

That rumor has been going around since before I graduated high school back in the 80s. I have traveled all over this country for both the Military and the other branches of the US government. I have seen lots of blue hats on Military bases but have never seen any evidence of them having large encampments in any of the places the rumors said they were. I even ran into a few people who swore that there was camps in the Mark Twain Nat Forrest here in MO, but like Waksupi said, "when I ask them were they are..., they dend to wander off mumbling to their selves."

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[exile]

To begin with, let me say I probably wouldn't survive three days in these situations, but the discussion is interesting. My vote would go for my stainless Ruger single-six, a Marlin 1894 in .357 magnum, or a pellet gun. Keeping a low profile would be very important to me.

I have not heard anyone talk about a particular knife. From what I hear, Buck knives can be low quality.

My best bet is the fact that right outside our house is a road that becomes dirt in a very short time. It leads to my father-in-law's farm without going on any main roads. So my main concern would be getting there in one piece. My wife is related to many people in the area, so that would be our best bet. Just to stay put.

Having said that, read "Tunnel in the Sky" by Robert Heinlein. It seems the Rambo routine will get you killed quicker than anything. Best bet would be a low profile and a little humility.

Here are a few questions:

1. What ever happened to Newt Levisay and his knives? I have one, but would like another.

2. Why are rifles of any kind in .357 magnum so hard to find? The Marlin 1894, the Handi-rifle, the Rossi all seem in short supply. If they are so popular, why don't the companies make more of them?

3. Docone31, if it's not too personal, what did you get your doctorate in? From what little I have heard from others, the stress of a doctoral program would make you want to got to Alaska for a few years.

Hope I didn't get too far off topic. One thing I would really want in a survival situation would be a copy of the Bible and lots of prayer.

exile

[akraven]

Last I knew Newt wasout of business. I believe for awhile a son in law was finishing up some orders. That was a few years ago now. akraven

[superior]

Some of you guys make survivor-man look like a noob! I'm almost sure he has a box of food hidden off camera all times. There was an episode in Newfoundland where he had a cz 452 training rifle and he wasn't able to shoot Jack Squat! In fact he doesn't appear to be able to find food half the time. I did learn a few good tips from him though. One was to make mukluks out of a car seat using the foam padding and vinyl covers tied around it.(If you happen to have a vinyl interior). If we are headed towards a depression, I hope I get my house paid off first. Then I can stay put, garden and raise animals. Otherwise it's not a pretty picture.

[Old Ironsights]

I will suggest a few books that you should have in your arsenal.

U.S. Special Forces Medical Handbook

Ditch Medicine

Where There Is No Dentist.

These cover some of the worst situations you could find yourself in.

I would also highly recommend "98.6 - Tha art of keeping your ass alive" and "When All Hell Breaks Loose" - both by Cody Lundin, and both no-bs "forget the rambo crap" books.

Now, that said, my main gun is my Stainless Rossi .357 and a snubby to match. I have loads that, without a suppressor, are nearly silent out of the rifle and would be sufficiently lethal out to 25yds to keep me fed on anything from squirrel to deer. With that rifle is a Lee Loader, more primers than you can care to think about, a mould and casting ladle.

I absolutely agree on a couple of snares and conibears, and also agree in both theory and practice on having a good Flint Gun as well if you can. Mine is made of Stainless Steel, has a fully removable breech for easy cleaning and a polimer stock for druability. I also am modestly proficient in the manufacture of BP and know how to build a nitre bed.

But the whole BP thing really requires a more settled situation.

Learning AtlAtls, Slings & Self Bows is also a very good idea. Likewise, there are some excellent plans for Self Crossbows available - some sturdy enough for mid-size game.

Gardening and water purification (#1!) are a given.

[monadnock#5]

http://www.amazon.com/Browns-Two-One-Survival-Library/dp/B000ZG4K6E/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228441039&sr=1-2

Here's my book recommendation. Contained therein: Improvised shelters which need no camouflage, as they're made from all natural materials. Fire starting 101. Tracking. And last but certainly not least, traps, snares and deadfalls. I always wondered what the triggering mechanism was that the African natives used in the Tarzan movies for snares that could launch a rhino 60' into the air. As it turns out the triggering mechanism is so simple a cave man could do it. Oh, wait. I guess a cave man did do it. :roll:

[Boerrancher]

All I have to do is survive long enough to get home, which since I don't really travel anymore, The farthest I will have to go is 20 miles from town. My home is a mile off the country road back out of sight and out of mind. I have livestock, lots of game, a creek that runs year round, and a good size river is less than about 400 yards from my back line fence. The wife and I grow a very large garden, and I have quite a bit of fuel stored up for the tractor. The house is set up to heat and cook with wood if need be, the well is set up for a hand pump, so why would I want to leave.

As far as the Rambo approach, it will get you killed. I learned quite well while in the Army, that it is better to remain unseen, unheard, and un-noticed. This lesson served my quite well in the mountains of Afghanistan. When you don't know who is friend or foe, it is best to just avoid everyone move through the area and leave no evidence that you were ever there. It is hard to hunt someone down if you don't know they were ever there.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[docone31]

That is the trick, walk on rice paper without leaving a mark.
That means everywhere. Camp, fire pit, leftover food, everything.
You might even make friends that way.

[Slowpoke]

http://www.amazon.com/Browns-Two-One-Survival-Library/dp/B000ZG4K6E/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228441039&sr=1-2

Here's my book recommendation. Contained therein: Improvised shelters which need no camouflage, as they're made from all natural materials. Fire starting 101. Tracking. And last but certainly not least, traps, snares and deadfalls. I always wondered what the triggering mechanism was that the African natives used in the Tarzan movies for snares that could launch a rhino 60' into the air. As it turns out the triggering mechanism is so simple a cave man could do it. Oh, wait. I guess a cave man did do it. :roll:

Yep but getting your quarry's feet narrowed down to that last 3 or 4 inches is the trick, there is a lot of real estate out there.

good luck

[exile]

I will probably get a reputation for being a real strange guy for this, but you guys are talking about cannibalism, so here goes. Regarding not seeing camps in the mountains, whoever is in power won't need them. There are already plenty of abandoned military bases, prisons, power plants, airports etc., (anything with a fence around it) to use for concentration camps. Places to put people they don't like. I think we under-estimate the hatred out there for people of religious faith, people who have guns, people who refuse to buy everything the mainstream media puts out.

Think it can't and won't happen here? I disagree. It happened to the Jews in Germany, Armenian Christians in Turkey, Christians in Russia, Christians in China, Cuba, North Korea, etc.,. People are so dependent on the mainstream media for information that if the media doesn't report it, it didn't happen. People are so horrified by the idea of genocide. They think the U.N. will stop it. In my opinion, genocide has been more of the norm in human history rather than the exception.

Right now in the United Nations, they are seriously considering a proposal by the Organization of Islamic States to make preaching the gospel a capital offense, That's right. The Muslims want the U.N.'s approval to kill anyone who talks about
the Bible. And they will probably get it. I don't know about you, but that means I and everyone I know will be gone. And with my health being what it is, there is not much I can do about it.

I was talking with a friend of mine in law enforcement the other day regarding the way AR-15's are flying off the shelves. Nothing wrong with that, wish I could afford a Stag Arms in 6.5 Grendel. But I digress. My friend is very pro-second amendment, however he said, it won't matter what you buy, I have seen the
technology out there, and the average guy won't have a chance against the military. With the political situation being what it is right now, I think these things are a real possibility. Why mess with trying to pass the "Fairness Doctrine" the assault weapons ban, etc., when you can just get rid of "those people" once and for all. After all, " the economy is bad anyway, and the world has had enough of the religious right for crying out loud." I am sure people in power now are
thinking that no one has really made efficient use of the Patriot Act yet.

Actually, it has happened here already. The BATFE could have arrested David
Koresh anytime they wanted to without firing a shot. But they wanted to make an example of him. And guess what? Janet Reno's second in command throughout that little example of genocide is Obama's choice for Attorney General. What does that tell you? They pumped gas into a compound that when ignited turned into cyanide, and nobody went to jail for it. And they blamed the Branch Davidians for it. They did not find one example of an illegal firearm in that place. And the last time I checked, child abuse is not a capital offense. They figured, as long as it happens to a bunch of "fundamentalist" "extremists" no one will care. And how right they were. Well, there it is, a preview of coming attractions in y opinion.

exile

[Bret4207]

I'm not much for conspiracy theories and black helicopters but I think there is an undercurrent of anti American/capitalism/Christianity that's very prevalent at the moment. Sometimes I think these are the End Times, other times I think I'm just nuts. Either way I have to take care of my family. I'm a lot more concerned about an economic collapse with resultant restriction of civil liberties than I am of the UN marching into downtown Brasie Corners NY and setting up a gallows. I'm a lot more worried about a lack of food and fuel than I am of phantom prison camps. Above all else I'm concerned about the forth coming administration and just where we're headed. Combine The Messiah with the Fed and a populace who's main concern is The Super Bowl and Dancing With the Stars and I see problems.

I refied my home, paid down a bunch of stuff and am in fair shape as far as that goes. I want a root cellar too, we have the livestock, garden and tools. The big problem for us is staying on track and not getting caught up in the fluff and non-essential things. We're not there yet.

[monadnock#5]

Yep but getting your quarry's feet narrowed down to that last 3 or 4 inches is the trick, there is a lot of real estate out there.

good luck

Placing the snares where animals pass by is no great trick. You find the "edges" where field and brush meet, or where brush and woods meet. That's where the game paths are. Make the bait salty and cheesy, or salty and peanut buttery. It's setting a snare without getting ones face ripped off his skull, or setting a figure 4 dead fall that actually triggers and falls fast enough to do the job. That takes talent and skill. Oh, and don't get caught. There's too many violations of various laws involved for me to count. Kiss away your 2nd Amendment Rights in the plea bargain.

Bret, you mentioned in another thread in the not far distant past, that you didn't like the way "Red Dawn" ended with so few survivors. I didn't like it either, but it was the beginning of the movie that bothered me even more. It was the guys like most of us here, the ones with multiple 4473 forms on file who went to the concentration camp and an en mass demise shortly thereafter.

[Pepe Ray]

I pity anyone with children at this time.
In order for the new guy to be sure of a second term he must keep the crowd content during the first term. They'll be a lot of pre planning that won't be covered by the media.
It is all written. I'm praying. How about you?
Pepe Ray

[monadnock#5]

I pity anyone with children at this time.
In order for the new guy to be sure of a second term he must keep the crowd content during the first term. They'll be a lot of pre planning that won't be covered by the media.
It is all written. I'm praying. How about you?
Pepe Ray

I'm in total agreement with Bret...fevered imagination or End Times/End Times or fevered imagination...? The way I console myself is to tell myself that until he actually does something to hurt me, I've suffered no damages, and to be of good cheer. Prayer helps a lot also.

[felix]

These prisons are not phantom, just incognito for the most part as to what they are. How many cities have new jails? Quite a few. These small jobs are a smoke screen to really hide what is out there remotely, within some larger cities too. ... felix

[Bret4207]

Bret, you mentioned in another thread in the not far distant past, that you didn't like the way "Red Dawn" ended with so few survivors. I didn't like it either, but it was the beginning of the movie that bothered me even more. It was the guys like most of us here, the ones with multiple 4473 forms on file who went to the concentration camp and an en mass demise shortly thereafter.

I didn't say I didn't like the ending, I said they lost!

[monadnock#5]

Well OK. I stand corrected.

[superior]

I'm with Bret. People today are more concerned with American Idol than they are with current events around the world. Meanwhile, they just keep pouring across the border..........
I, however watch cspan, and am trying to keep an eye on the government. Oh I watch hunting on vs. also. I'm sure most all of you will agree that the most important survival tool is information and for now, the internet provides us with a source that hasn't been censored. We have the freedom to think for ourselves and share our knowledge on line. For that ,I am thankful.

[Heavy lead]

I'm not much for conspiracy theories and black helicopters but I think there is an undercurrent of anti American/capitalism/Christianity that's very prevalent at the moment. Sometimes I think these are the End Times, other times I think I'm just nuts. Either way I have to take care of my family. I'm a lot more concerned about an economic collapse with resultant restriction of civil liberties than I am of the UN marching into downtown Brasie Corners NY and setting up a gallows. I'm a lot more worried about a lack of food and fuel than I am of phantom prison camps. Above all else I'm concerned about the forth coming administration and just where we're headed. Combine The Messiah with the Fed and a populace who's main concern is The Super Bowl and Dancing With the Stars and I see problems.

I refied my home, paid down a bunch of stuff and am in fair shape as far as that goes. I want a root cellar too, we have the livestock, garden and tools. The big problem for us is staying on track and not getting caught up in the fluff and non-essential things. We're not there yet.

Brett,
Your thoughts above about end times are the way a lot of us feel. I am not sure whether it is or not, and to be honest don't care whether it is or not. Only the alimighty himself knows. People have went through difficult times before, from a food and comfort standpoint MUCH more difficult, at least so far. The thing that concerns me is when everyone seems to be so appethetic and/or thinks the answer to the problem is worse than the problem itself. I do think we are entering (or have entered) another time similiar to the Crusades if in fact we are not in the end time itself.
I always keep my eyes, ears, and mind open and never panic, especially if it looks like you should.

Another thought about any so called "prisons, jails, or camps" people are worried about.
The feds, United Nations, or anyone else does not have the manpower, will, or money to do it. Remember the value of the citizenry to the government is not votes it is wealth, true wealth, as in tax collections. They do not want us working class, middle upper class, and upper class to revolt. That's how they stay in business. Make NO mistake our government is a business, and has been for a long time. It is the worst non-profit, corrupt, tax and law exempt *** the world of all ages has ever seen, the only other rival is the Roman Empire toward the end of it's existance, and forgive me to you Catholics, but the Roman Catholic Church in midevil times.

[PatMarlin]

I also feel worry for folks with children these days.

We are in the end times. It's written in the bible. We are the generation of the fig tree. Just that no one knows how long a "biblical" generation is.

I think Brett's right on with the attack of American/capitalism/Christianity.

I look at it this way... we all need to prepare for bad times including raising and securing our own food, and securing our homes. If the economy tanks- having all the greenbacks in the world is not going to help much. You can't eat it. It will only provide enough heat to cook a few eggs.

The real security will be in land, food, shelter, water, and the tools to sustain it. I've been working toward this goal for near 10 years now. It's been our choice and lifestyle. Nothing extreme about it as our grandparents lived the same way.

My family and my friends know the bug out is here, and I pity anyone who would attempt to take it away from us. As my friends and family are very kind but street smart and some extremely tough folks.

There are much easier pickin's for bad guys I guarantee... :mrgreen:

[PatMarlin]

Now here's an idea-

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-talk_moneydec03,0,2902061.story

[adam38654]

I have noticed allot of the new schools are setup like prisons and could be turned into one easily. They are often 4 hallways, or cell blocks, in the shape of an X or they will have two identical buildings in a V shape or side by side with a main headquarters in the middle.Metal detectors, heavy steel doors, and often double glass windows with wire mesh in between.

[PatMarlin]

I have noticed allot of the new schools are setup like prisons and could be turned into one easily. They are often 4 hallways, or cell blocks, in the shape of an X or they will have two identical buildings in a V shape or side by side with a main headquarters in the middle.Metal detectors, heavy steel doors, and often double glass windows with wire mesh in between.

Yeah they work well-

Saw one converted with my own eyes. Only it was not a prison, it was a concentration death camp in Phenom Phen, Cambodia.

[NoDakJak]

Well, some of you folks have the right idea. I agree with Brett, BoerFarmer and Patmarlin. A secure place away from major population centers, some livestock and the ability to grow most of your own food. Out of sight, out of mind! A good stock of food and supplies and don't keep them all in one spot if you want to survive. As the old adage states "Don't keep all your eggs in one basket". If "TSHTF" Long Pig might very well become rather common, especially in areas with a high population density. In the mid 1950's I spent about eight months living via subsistence hunting and would have probably have starved to death if I had not finally enlisted in the Navy. Subsistence hunting/gathering is at the very bottom of the pole of human existence. Sheer misery for the most part. Herding/farming is a huge step up the ladder but you are tied to one spot and must protect it at all costs. That definetly calls for a group effort, definetly not for the Rambo type. Well, I could go on all night about this but had better not. My thoughts on firearms? Depends on the situatation. The city dweller would probably be better off with a good shotgun and a medium bore revolver. Why a medium bore revolver? Ease of training, adequate knockdown, recoil light enough to allow a faast repeat shot if needed. Between 1800 and the end of WWI the British probably had more hand to hand encounters than all other armies combined and their 455 Webley with a large bullet with low recoil has probably been the most successful combat revolver of all time. It was replaced after WWI because of the damned beancounters who have caused many thousands of good men to meet their demise. If you are not in the big city thae average person would probably be better off with a good 22 rifle and the same revolver. For me with my personal experience? Definetly my Savage Model 23 in 25-20 and Colt 357. Yowza! I'm set for anything from cottontail through deer with my handloads. There is my two cents worth! Neil

[Bret4207]

I'm with Bret. People today are more concerned with American Idol than they are with current events around the world. Meanwhile, they just keep pouring across the border..........
I, however watch cspan, and am trying to keep an eye on the government. Oh I watch hunting on vs. also. I'm sure most all of you will agree that the most important survival tool is information and for now, the internet provides us with a source that hasn't been censored. We have the freedom to think for ourselves and share our knowledge on line. For that ,I am thankful.

Research "The Fairness Doctrine" if you think the internet will remain free from censorship.

[Bret4207]

Brett,
Your thoughts above about end times are the way a lot of us feel. I am not sure whether it is or not, and to be honest don't care whether it is or not. Only the alimighty himself knows. People have went through difficult times before, from a food and comfort standpoint MUCH more difficult, at least so far. The thing that concerns me is when everyone seems to be so appethetic and/or thinks the answer to the problem is worse than the problem itself. I do think we are entering (or have entered) another time similiar to the Crusades if in fact we are not in the end time itself.
I always keep my eyes, ears, and mind open and never panic, especially if it looks like you should.

Another thought about any so called "prisons, jails, or camps" people are worried about.
The feds, United Nations, or anyone else does not have the manpower, will, or money to do it. Remember the value of the citizenry to the government is not votes it is wealth, true wealth, as in tax collections. They do not want us working class, middle upper class, and upper class to revolt. That's how they stay in business. Make NO mistake our government is a business, and has been for a long time. It is the worst non-profit, corrupt, tax and law exempt *** the world of all ages has ever seen, the only other rival is the Roman Empire toward the end of it's existance, and forgive me to you Catholics, but the Roman Catholic Church in midevil times.

In a sense we are like the Romans, we have our Circus (entertainment/drugs/booze) and most of us (the sheeple) are content with that. I can not buy the idea our Gov't is the worst the world has seen, not by any stretch. Even today you can look around and see far worse examples, Mexico, Venezula, many African and Asian nations are ruled by virtual thugs. Is it perfect? No, far from it. But it's still better than anywhere else. In time I suppose more and more people will wake up. I frequent several "survivalist" type boards and their membership is growing. Sadly, many of the people I find there are angry, scared, many just ignorant and stupid, ready to cling to any wild tale or conspiracy theory that strikes their fancy. Many are looking for someone to blame for their position, others for a savior to rescue them. There are those who abhor violence and others who seem ready to cut down the first person they have a chance to. All in all it seems to represent a cross section of society these days, whereas a few years back during the Y2K scare it tended to be more "Yuppies" prepping or those who were ready for nuclear annihilation. These days it seems to be more anti-gov't/NWO than ever before.

Should the day come that our Gov't somehow goes mad and attempts to round up people en mass, then all bets for our survival are off. I think there's a far better chance our Gov't will attempt to pacify us with the Circus rather than the sword. I don't care what the loonies say, I have a very, very hard time picturing US troops firing on their countrymen, police doing the same, in a "Red Dawn" type scenario. I just don't buy it on the large scale. Perhaps I'm naive, but having been in the USMC and in policing/fire-rescue service for most of my life I can't see it happening on a wide scale before there is active resistance among the so called "enforcers". There could be those who would willing do the wrong thing, certainly, but I just can't see it on the large scale.

FWIW- ANY large industrial/government facility can function as a holding area for a time. Seeing them as possible prisons doesn't mean they are. Like the man said, "Every woman is equipped to be a prostitute, that doesn't mean she is."

[rhead]

I do not see a general roundup into camps either. I think that our society will die more like the Roman empire. In all likelyhood the fan will not be hit, it will just slowly grind to a halt at the blades get clogged by an acculation of refuse. Historians place a date on the fall of the Roman Empire but can they agree on the event that made the eventuial colapse ineventable? It was a certianty by Nero's time but how much earlier was the trickle that became a landside started. When did it become unstoppable? Was it as early as the Gracci brothers? Sulla? The first triumvirate or maybe the second? At some point the situation became such that the fix to survive the next few years caused a long term effect that could only make the situation worse. As soon as the parisite class were allowed to vote they began selling their vote for freebies and Ceasar was the result.
From the surviving records the average man on the street at the time was convinced by the leaders that it was a temporary problem and that better times wrer soon coming.
I do not see our country as evil or bad. Rome was not evil either. Joining the empire was a very good deal compared to the situation outside the empire. Their roads and communications system was efficient for the times. Their tax structure was using rates that none of us have ever seen and the averagecitizen's return on their tax dollar was better than ours.
Many years from now historians will probably argue about when America fell.

[Boerrancher]

I don't care what the loonies say, I have a very, very hard time picturing US troops firing on their countrymen...

Then you need to read about the Bonus Army, and some of the coal miners strikes in the years of Woodrow Willson, and FDR. Federal troops were used several times to attack civilians. I am sorry the public educational system fails to teach about anything bad that the Gov has done, but what do you expect from the Government itself?

But for the most part I do agree with you Brett.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Scrounger]

Yeah, I think they (the Bonus Veterans and others who were jobless) were called Cox's Army. MacArthur was Chief of Staff and Eisenhower his Adjutant. He ordered troops to disperse them and I believe some women and children were injured in the process. What makes you think it couldn't happen today? Look around you, people have gotten worse, not better.

[PatMarlin]

As soon as the parisite class were allowed to vote they began selling their vote for freebies and Ceasar was the result.

...and history repeats itself.

[Dogg]

This has all been very interesting reading and thanks to some of you I have decided to change some of my bugout ideas.
I would like to reply to the idea that US troops would turn on the citizens. My response is they won't have to, one of the Obamanation goals is to give the UN more power so as to create a one world order. The UN has preached the disarming of America for years, so all you have to do is use UN troops to do the rounding up.
Second thing is most people do not live in an area that would be suitable for hunting, foraging our farm/ranching those of us who live out in the country but have large populations in nearby cities will either be digging a lot of graves or will be eventually overrun. Those lucky ones in states like Montana (my old home) stand a much better chance of getting through things. Individuals who think they can make it on their own are most likely living in a dream, small organized groups have a better chance as long as they use their heads and don't experience to much internal disatisfaction. In any case it will not be a good time for anyone. More than likely their will be major outbreaks of diseases that we haven't seen in years due to large segment of the population being in unclean disease riden environments not counting the disease that will arise from decaying bodies. It will be hell on earth for sure.
Back to weapons, I have a bunch but have decided to purchase a scout rifle set up in 308 and have by glock 9mm with a .22 conversion for bugout. Everything else will need to be pre-placed in the area of intended settlement.
Wish I was 35years younger if this happens and in better shape.
If this does happen good luck to you all! You'll probably need it.
Dogg

[Bret4207]

Then you need to read about the Bonus Army, and some of the coal miners strikes in the years of Woodrow Willson, and FDR. Federal troops were used several times to attack civilians. I am sorry the public educational system fails to teach about anything bad that the Gov has done, but what do you expect from the Government itself?

But for the most part I do agree with you Brett.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

I'm familiar with MacArthurs actions, and the others mentioned. But re-read what I said- I don't believe it would be widespread before the actors said, "ENOUGH!". Yes, you and I probably both knw people who would never give it a thought, but on the whole I don't see it happeneing.

Dogg- Bring in UN troops and then I'll revamp my theory because I'll be at the front lines!

[exile]

The Jews in Europe said the same thing "We are middle-class, they need us." My wife has said that the medical profession in Eastern Europe still has not recovered from the slaughter of Jewish doctors. I do not believe there is a limit on what one man will do to another to get what they want.

exile