Solid 311041 30-30 Hunting load recommendations

[curioushooter]

Rifle: 1:10 twist Mossberg 464 with 20" barrel.

311041 NOE clone.

Lube will be Carnuba blue and Hornady Gas Check.

Game: smallish Indiana whitetails probably inside 100 yards.

I realize the fast twist may limit velocity where accuracy will be acceptable.

But how slow is too slow? At what impact velocity will the bullet become the proverbial icepick and result in me driving home to get my dog?

It seems that many are using softer alloys like 50Pb/50COWW with 2% SN. I favor an alloy of 2% sn and 2% sb which is about the same hardness, but still is pretty soft.

Thanks!

[Outpost75]

Your 50-50, or 96-2-2 alloy will perform well at around 1600 fps, assuming that the game range is short enough to ensure an impact velocity above 1300 fps out where the deer is. Accuracy should hold in a ten-inch twist to about 1800 fps. Zero 2 inches high at 50 yards for a 125 yard zero and 150-yard point-blank range with max. 3-inch drop at 1300 fps remaining velocity, which is at the lower threshold for the bullet expanding.

.30-30 Winchester, 170-grain Flat Point similar to #31141

Yds.___Drop(Ins)___Vel.(fps)_Energy
0_____-0.9852_____1799____1221
25_____0.8919_____1705____1097
50_____2.0211_____1615____984
75_____2.3169_____1530____883
100____1.6830_____1448____791
125____0.0125_____1372____710
150___-2.8129_____1302____640
175___-6.9216_____1237____578
200___-12.4497____1180____526

[MT Chambers]

I can't say much as my micro-groove Marlin does not like 311041, I believe it is too small, it must make .312", if it shoots for you it should be a great choice for deer.

[quilbilly]

My 464 loves that boolit. I don't use wheel weights. My alloy is 60% pure and 40% hard birdshot plus a hint of extra tin for better mold fill out. Not particularly hard but useful at many velocities. Given your description of the game and the hunting conditions, my terminal ballistics tests at 40 yards indicate you will be just fine with a muzzle velocity of 1550 to 1600 fps or slightly less.
Accuracy-wise, my 464 with that boolit at that velocity with its Skinner aperture sight will bounce one gallon paint cans at well over 200 yards with regularity off a fair rest with my aging eyes.
My 464 has also been a real jewel for wintertime coyotes loaded with 130 gr. RFGC's from a Mihec mold at a leisurely MV of 1300 fps.

[richhodg66]

When I started deer hunting with cast, first one was with a Savage 340 in .30-30 using the 31141, older Ideal mold. I used 25 grains of an imported powder called B-West 36 which isn't available now, but burned like IMR 3031. Worked very well.

I think Ken Waters' pet load was 26 grains of IMR 4895 with the 311041.

[Larry Gibson]

I have killed quite a few black tail deer with the 311041, both solid and HP'd. I found and excellent alloy for hunting to be COWWs + 2% tin then mixed 50/50 with pure lead. I let the bullets AC, GC'd with Hornady GCs and lubed with Javelina [2500+ now]. Acceptable hunting accuracy was very good in 10" twist rifles upwards of 1950 - 2000 fps. I most often use 27 - 28 gr H4895 in the 30-30.

They gave very good terminal performance to 200 yards, and even better when HP'd 3/16" deep with the 1/8" Forster HP tool. With that soft alloy best accuracy (usually 2 - 3 moa) held for 6 - 8 shots then open up to 4 moa +/-. I learned to simply clean the barrel after each test 5 shot group or after a tube full of 7 shots. That way best accuracy was maintained. Kind of a pain when developing loads but very good for hunting. Besides, when hunting, if I hadn't killed the deer in 7 shots it was time to go home anyways...... For practice and zero bullets of just the COWW + 2% tin worked fine and held accuracy all day long.

[smkummer]

I shoot at the Southern Indiana rifle pistol club in Borden, IN. You?

[smoked turkey]

curioushooter I believe you have a winning combination all the way around. I'm in the 50/50 + 2% camp here as I found my straight ww had too much Sb and as a result were brittle and tended to break up and gave no penetration in wet paper packs. I have not used the 311041 in 30-30 but I have in the .308. They work suburb for me and almost anyone who has tried them. I say best get your grill ready for those back straps.

[curioushooter]

I found and excellent alloy for hunting to be COWWs + 2% tin then mixed 50/50 with pure lead.

This is a very soft alloy. COWWs + 2% then mixed 50/50 should be 97.25% Pb, 1.25% Sn, 1.5% Sb. I'd be surprised if that had a BHN of 10. COWWs + 2% Sn should be 94.5% Pb, 2.5% Sn, 3% Sb. The alloy I've been using for basically all handgunning lately (and have cast into 1# ingots) has been 96% Pb, 2% Sn and 2% Sb. No wheelweights involved and everything measured on a scale. Aircooled it gets BHN ~11 day of rising to ~12 in a couple weeks maybe. I would think that a harder alloy thank this would really be needed, but I will start with it and see what happens.

I may even put one into gel at 1300-1400 FPS to see if it mushrooms.

Any recommendations as to powder? The Lyman #4 Cast Manual shows the following powders that I have with 311041: IMR 3031, IMR 4198, Alliant 2400, and Unique. I was thinking start with the 4198?

Thanks!

[ole_270]

20 years or so ago I hunted for several years with a Win M94 shooting cast bullets from an old 31141 mold. Alloy was basically ww+tin. I water dropped from a hot mold and tumble lubed with Lee Alox after sizing to .310. I used H4895 or 3031 depending on which I had at the time, loads ran 1950-2000 fps. Killed several whitetails with those loads with no rodeos. Finally sold the rifle because I got tired of the 20 lb trigger.

[RickinTN]

It would be hard to go wrong with IMR3031 in your application. Probably somewhere between 25 and maybe up to 28 grains is where I would look for best accuracy.
Good Luck.
Rick

[richhodg66]

I'm surprised the 464s are made with a 1 in 10" twist. Hasn't the .30-30 standard been 1 in 12" from the beginning?

[Larry Gibson]

I'm surprised the 464s are made with a 1 in 10" twist. Hasn't the .30-30 standard been 1 in 12" from the beginning?

Only in Winchester rifles...real Winchesters that is...

[curioushooter]

Most 30-30s use 1:10 twist, at least in my experience (which is admittedly with no "real" Winchesters). I think it is because they use the same barrels they do for .308/30-06 etc. I am almost certain this is the reason why Mossberg does it as the company is all about economics and makes their own barrels.

The reason why 1:10 is a common twist rate is supposedly because that's what it took to stabilize that long 220 grainer 30-40 Krag bullet at long ranges. And since they made up a bunch of bullets and the Army married itself to thirty caliber it's still that way even when the cartridges changed. It certainly doesn't take 1:10 to stabilize those 150 grain bullets in 30-06 and whatnot.

I know a reason why some prefer the 32 Winchester Special over the 30-30 is because it uses a much slower twist rate.

I think a 1:12 or even 1:14 may be preferable for a 30-30 carbine, where bullet weight is pretty much practically limited to 170 grains if you are like me and want the lube grooves in the neck and like things to feed reliably, but it's hard to justify changing a perfectly good barrel on a $350 rifle. Maybe if I did it myself, but not otherwise.

With jackets 1:10 is fine. Rifle has always delivered acceptable accuracy (like 2 MOA or better sometimes) with handloaded Speer Hot Cores. I've seen guys at the range before deer seasons with bolt actions and factory ammo that was far less accurate. It does, like most lever actions, exhibit annoying POI changes due to temperature changes or something touching the mag tube. I do not know why after all these years someone hasn't had the bright idea to use a rigid mag tube screwed into the receiver like the barrel and hang the forend off that and free float the barrel. Make it out of aluminum if you think it is to heavy. Some Ithaca deerslayers are built this way and it's not a big deal.

[cowboy4evr]

I have 2 , 30-30's , a 94 Winchester (1948) and a Marlin 336 (1970's) . The marlin shoots very accurately bullets sized .311 . The winchester prefers .310 . I have several loads that perform well . 25 grs of IMR 3031 and 26 grs of 4895 . I recently tried 9.0 grs of Unique , just for fun and was quite surprised . It had great accuracy and had plenty of power if hunting in brush country , shots limited to about 75 yds . I use the Lyman 311041 exclusively . Good Luck , Paul

[popper]

IIRC Paco Kelly had a mod like that. Don't need speed except for drop at distance. Alloy hard enough for accuracy and making 2 holes, enough speed to get POA at what ever distance. I mostly use LeverE but 4895, 3031 all work well.

[curioushooter]

I've read Paco's mod. It is the same idea but falls short of satisfactory IMO. To really do it right the receiver needs to be built up via welding (which nobody wants to do because the heat effected zone is near the chamber), then bored and tapped and the mag tube threaded and it needs to be screwed in. Then it all needs to be carefully function tested. It really should be this way from the factory, especially on all the rifles (not carbines) that have short mag tubes that only hold 3 or 4 rounds.

One of the things I've learned is that there needs to be ENOUGH of whatever to get performance. Usually more than ENOUGH is not really an improvement. The cartridge that immediately comes to mind in this regard is 300 WIN MAG.

But in 30 caliber, which is really a small caliber, you want mushrooming to occur. I've messed around with 32-20 in a contender with hard alloys and they do not mushroom or hardly mushroom ~1500 FPS impact velocities. These are bullets cast by Western Bullet Co and I don't know what alloy they are, but they are fairly hard. I would not think this type of load would cut the mustard...a hard 311440 (150 grains or so) impacting at 1300-1500 FPS. That is going to put a 30 caliber hole in a deer and most likely be a slow recovery process. Some of the loads I see proposed for 30-30 are in fact in the 32-20 power catergory! I have no doubt they will kill. It's a matter of how efficiently. Even terrible shot placement can result in an agonizing death by infection. I don't have time for that. I've processed deer with broadheads and bullets stuck in them that DID not kill them. I damaged a meat saw cutting into a broadhead once splitting a spine.

That is why I want enough MV to assure mushrooming at IMPACT. This could be 100+ yards if I get a long shot. I know what speer hot cors do and they are most satisfactory. Also, I probably wont be taking the shot...it will be a new hunter...so I am being perhaps a bit overly cautious here.

[Nathanj]

265212
I've used lobogunleather's loads for the past few years they'll cut ragged hole at 100 yds if you do your part in a 94' or Savage 30-30 bolt

[John McCorkle]

I've read Paco's mod. It is the same idea but falls short of satisfactory IMO. To really do it right the receiver needs to be built up via welding (which nobody wants to do because the heat effected zone is near the chamber), then bored and tapped and the mag tube threaded and it needs to be screwed in. Then it all needs to be carefully function tested. It really should be this way from the factory, especially on all the rifles (not carbines) that have short mag tubes that only hold 3 or 4 rounds.

One of the things I've learned is that there needs to be ENOUGH of whatever to get performance. Usually more than ENOUGH is not really an improvement. The cartridge that immediately comes to mind in this regard is 300 WIN MAG.

But in 30 caliber, which is really a small caliber, you want mushrooming to occur. I've messed around with 32-20 in a contender with hard alloys and they do not mushroom or hardly mushroom ~1500 FPS impact velocities. These are bullets cast by Western Bullet Co and I don't know what alloy they are, but they are fairly hard. I would not think this type of load would cut the mustard...a hard 311440 (150 grains or so) impacting at 1300-1500 FPS. That is going to put a 30 caliber hole in a deer and most likely be a slow recovery process. Some of the loads I see proposed for 30-30 are in fact in the 32-20 power catergory! I have no doubt they will kill. It's a matter of how efficiently. Even terrible shot placement can result in an agonizing death by infection. I don't have time for that. I've processed deer with broadheads and bullets stuck in them that DID not kill them. I damaged a meat saw cutting into a broadhead once splitting a spine.

That is why I want enough MV to assure mushrooming at IMPACT. This could be 100+ yards if I get a long shot. I know what speer hot cors do and they are most satisfactory. Also, I probably wont be taking the shot...it will be a new hunter...so I am being perhaps a bit overly cautious here.

Don't think you're overly cautious at all...alloy work will allow lower velocity and still get that mushroom you're hoping for in that bullet profile. If you already have them hard cast it's going to be loads with powders like 4198, 3031, 4895 maybe with fillers to get you there.

I played with a load of 32-35 grains of 4198 in an '06 with the ranch dog 170 mold paper patched. Got to 2300-2400 fps out of my gun....but I think it needs a filler because velocities were all over the place because of the larger capacity of the 06

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[lar45]

You might try shooting some gallon jugs full of water to catch the boolit and see how it does. Load it a little slower to account for the velocity at the range your intending to shoot.
I shot my 450 Bushmaster into 4 jugs with a MP 320 Ruger Only boolit cast from ACWW + tin at 1700fps-ish, it busted the 4th jug, but was found in the 3rd jug. Accuracy was pretty good at 1800fps, I think I'll try it on pigs this year.
265599

[curioushooter]

I've found that around 1600+ impact velocities virtually anything with good tin content will mushroom. There is actually a world of difference between > 1600 and <1400. I did a lot of testing last year with 357 magnum carbines and cast bullets and fully convinced myself that big bore solids are the way to go.

You can get a mushroom that's all nice and pretty but will it go through? The more mushrooming the shallower the penetration. They are inversely related. You cannot learn this from water jugs. Which is why most people don't even think about it. Calibrated gel sobers you up quickly.

Finding balance is difficult and I observed performance windows of only a couple hundred FPS. This is fine with handguns but not acceptable in rifles.

Solids are very predictable. They always pass through and don't require nearly the power to perform. If the bore is big enough it makes at least that sized hole. Typically 30 caliber bullets mushroom to about 45-50 caliber. So 30-30/30-06 etc with cast is really about equivalent to 44 special/45 colt with a standard weight slug. Keith was right.

Jackets sort of change a lot with terminal performance. They allow the use of much softer cores that mushroom at even lower impact velocities. The jackets arrest mushrooming at a certain diameter so the bullet can achieve sufficient penetration across a wide range of impact velocities.

[pls1911]

Richhdg66.. Just getting around to catching up on this thread. B-West 36... we called it B_ttWipe 36... it was actually a great powder, and inexpensive.
Believe it or not, I'm still working several pounds, and wish I could get more!

[curiousgeorge]

I use a mix of old COWW, scrap from 22 LR bullet trap, and a half stick of 50/50 solder in a 20 lb pot. I honestly don't know exactly what the alloy mix is, but it kills deer (all 100 to 125 lb does so far) with complete penetration and some expansion determined by examining the wound cavity.

I'm shooting an old H&R .30-30, 24" barrel, 1-12 twist, and snap-on forearm to give an idea about age of gun. My load is 28 grs of IMR-4895 and the 311041. Sized at 311, lubed and gas checked it weighs 183 grains. All shots to date have been 35 to 50 yards.

One more thing- thank you Larry Gibson for the load info.

[bmortell]

Kinda late maybe you did your hunting already, but I have a lee 170 which is very similar recovered from a deer at 1500ish fps impact vel. Alloy 2.4% antimony 1.5% tin from certified alloy. May have seen me show it in threads a while back. Shot was angled from behind the front shoulder in a line to the rear opposite thigh bone.
268607
So you can see very slight expansion initially then the big smear on the bottom is from wiping the thigh bone losing most of energy it had left then stopped maybe 3inches shy of exiting the rump. Hopefully this helps.

after this i was no longer a fan of the mid weight boolits at 1700mv sort of plinking recoil loads for deer. could work if alloy is just right and soft enough and you have a perfect sideways shot with no bones in the way, but after i switched to heavy weights and around 1950mv trying to have wiggle room instead of good enough

[brewer12345]

It was 30-06, but a couple years ago I busted a 150 pound doe with a 198 grain bullet that was doing around 1900FPS at the muzzle. At 80 yards it went through a front leg without hitting bone, blew up the heart, damaged both lungs, and exited on its way to perdition. Alloy was AC COWW plus a percent or two tin and the exit was about a half inch hole in diameter, so I got some expansion. I think the difference is that my mold had about a .19" meplat. I think a 311041 is really only a hunting boolit with a very soft alloy.

[richhodg66]

"I think a 311041 is really only a hunting boolit with a very soft alloy."

Worked fine for me a couple of times. Cast reasonably soft, but still pushed to 1800 FPS or so. Not sure where you're getting that idea, it's quite a good hunting bullet.

[richhodg66]

Richhdg66.. Just getting around to catching up on this thread. B-West 36... we called it B_ttWipe 36... it was actually a great powder, and inexpensive.
Believe it or not, I'm still working several pounds, and wish I could get more!

There were a few things that BW-36 was the best grouping powder I used including a Remington 722 in .300 Savage. If it was still available, it would likely be my go-to powder for medium size cases.

[Outpost75]

I'm surprised the 464s are made with a 1 in 10" twist. Hasn't the .30-30 standard been 1 in 12" from the beginning?

It was common practice for many years to use military surplus, reject .30 cal. barrels which didn't gage up to produce .30 cal. sporting rifles. Marlin prior to Microgroove, H&R, Mossberg, Savage, used a great many 4-groove government form slightly oversized or slightly rough interior finish, reject Garand, 03A3 or other blanks in the postwar period, because they were cheap.

If you check H&R or Savage .22 Hornet or .222 Remington barrels you will find a great many made from rejected M16 1:14" or 1"12" twist barrel blanks which gage a wee bit large, but "good enough for farm boys who will mostly shoot at cans."

[Doughty]

brewer,
I think the 31141 is an excellent game bullet. You just have to match the alloy to the velocity. I've shot a lot of deer / antelope with it in oven harden WWs... at 2400 fps at distances as far as 250 yards. Veral Smith got it right when he talked about "balance."

[Larry Gibson]

"I think a 311041 is really only a hunting boolit with a very soft alloy."

I've killed a lot of deer and a couple elk with the 311041out of numerous 30-30s (Winchester's with 12' twists), 308Ws (mostly with 12" twists), some .308Ws and 30-06s with 10" twist. I've used solid and HP, hard and soft alloys in them. Also killed a lot of other critters with the 311041. It is an excellent hunting bullet. I have come to prefer a softer alloy [ 97/1.5/1.5] with the bullets AC'd, GC'd and lubed with a softer lube and HP'd to 3/16" deep and driven to 1950 - 2300 fps depending on barrel twist. I also clean the barrel every 5 - 8 shots with the hunting loads which maintains the best accuracy. I consider, if the velocity is 1950+ fps, 200 yards to be the maximum range I'll shoot a game animal at. The retained velocity is sufficient for good expansion and penetration at that max range. The HP 311041s HP'd as mentioned do not "blow up" and the most often penetrate through and through even at very close range. I also prefer to put the bullet through the heart not a "behind the shoulder" shot.

Years ago [late '60s] when I first started using the 311041 in a M94 Winchester and a 10" .308W I used straight COWW with the bullet in solid form. It killed deer w/o problems. Just not quite as quick (as in the deer often traveled farther after a similar hit) as with a softer alloy that expanded more. With that cast bullet i also discovered the adverse affect of the RPM Threshold. No matter what i did I could not get the .308W with the 10" twist to shoot as accurately above 1950 fps [got my first Oehler chronograph in the early '70s] as I could with the M94 Winchester with it's 12" twist. I didn't know, back then, about the RPM Threshold but it got me to wondering.

[Goofy]

Agree with Larry’s assessment very much. I’ve used 50/50 and 25/75 mix + Sn in my 94 a fair bit. Accuracy is indistinguishable between the two at 50 yds, running about 1.5” for 5 shots. Zero leading, excellent feed and ballpark 2000-2100 FPS. Splat-flop.

[dverna]

That is why I want enough MV to assure mushrooming at IMPACT. This could be 100+ yards if I get a long shot. I know what speer hot cors do and they are most satisfactory. Also, I probably wont be taking the shot...it will be a new hunter...so I am being perhaps a bit overly cautious here.

I read stuff like this and wonder...why? The Speer bullet you know works is less than $30/100. It can be driven at full velocity with accuracy while yielding more range and energy.

Add in the fact this is for a new hunter and it makes little sense. If the deer is wounded and lost, the "homemade" bullet or "underpowered" load YOU made will be blamed....unjustly maybe???

Do your friend and yourself a favor and load up those Speers. If the deer is wounded then the blame goes to that underpowered .30/30. Should have used the 45/70 after all. LOL

One good thing about this thread is a reminder that I need to get a mold of my my .30/30's. I have three I have been keeping for SHTF in case Beto makes AR's illegal but I have less than 200 jacketed bullets for them. Need to get a cast load for them.

[Goofy]

Started casting a long time back and with few exceptions see no reason to rely on J-bullets for field work. Lead works. Placement can simplify things, or rely on expansion if you wish.

311041 - 50/50 + Sn
https://i.imgur.com/jmQScof.jpg

They shoot OK.
https://i.imgur.com/upvGZ9n.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/uPj90NK.jpg

That said, if one wants splat with lead there are ways to get there. Bullets below are pure lead, MV ~1,600 fps
https://i.imgur.com/a2DR8es.jpg

They shoot fairly well.
https://i.imgur.com/tT1tiIN.jpg

When they hit a deer there is no tracking. 80 yards
https://i.imgur.com/RENinxM.jpg

Placement? .22 short, about 20 yards
https://i.imgur.com/45NsJo9.jpg

[JDL]

Hey, did you recover the slug and if so how much weight was retained? :kidding:
Sorry but, I was feeling a little aggravating having heard that on the internet 1000's of times ad nauseum! I feel better now.:wink:

[Goofy]

Who you talking to?

[JDL]

The .22 short in the skull.

[Goofy]

Yes I did, but it wasn't found in the skull. Retained weight is 28 grains, located about 6" behind the skull in neck muscle
https://i.imgur.com/zcWlSRW.jpg

You've seen the front view, this is the rear.
https://i.imgur.com/S4s0u8c.jpg

The victim
https://i.imgur.com/lw7duvS.jpg

FWIW, the retained weight on the .44 patched bullet above is 297.6 gr. Starting wt was 300 gr.

[JDL]

That is the round my grandfather used to provide us with ham, pork chops, bacon, and etc. He would mix water and wheat shorts to pour into feed trough, pick out the one he wanted and take the shot. A favorite story my Dad told was that my great uncle was to help my grandfather dress the hog and was standing behind him when he shot. The hog on reflex jerked his head to one side spraying the shorts on the wall of the barn and my uncle exclaimed Ben, what did you shoot him with? You've blown all his brains out!

[redhawk0]

Last year I did some range testing with 170gr Sierra FP and 170gr 311041. My 311041 (or 31141...I have two molds) were all PC'd and loaded to the same hunting load I used with the Sierra FPs.

WLRM primer and 32.0gr of W748. This was the original Winchester 170gr factory load....anyway....When I did some range tests I found that my groupings from one bullet to the other boolit were within 1" of each other at 50 yards. Seeing that they are so close...I can switch back and forth depending on my mood when deer hunting.

redhawk

[TJaway]

I read an article about the 45-70 and cast bullets. A bull had pinkeye and couldn't see. He charged whatever he heard. The boss decided the bull had to be put down. One of the hands came out with a trap door springfield. The load used was a 500 gr bullet pushed by black powder. Estimated velocity was 1300 FPS. The big bullet went clean through the critter THE LONG WAY! Don't underestimate cast bullets.

[Beerd]

TJ,
Welcome to the board!
(and you're preaching to the choir ;) )
..