"Christ died for our sins"..............

[Rizzo]

"Christ died for our sins"
....... and also Christians have a free gift of salvation.

These two statements are a big part of what Christians believe.

I was wondering what the root source is for those statements so I did a Bible search.
I found only one verse in the Bible that came up in my "died for our sins" searches.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

That verse does seem to be a source for that statement.....sort of.

But, according to what scriptures is it referring to? It is not clear.

Further, the "our sins" suggest the sins of those at that time and also all future sins of everyone.
One could say that since we all sin we are "covered" (forgiven?) by Jesus' death by that Bible verse.
To exagerate a bit, one could conclude that because they believe in Jesus they can have a good time, do sinful things and not worry about it because they are "Saved".

Are we not accountable for our sins?
If so, we do not have this "Free Pass" to heaven as one might think.

I find it confusing and perhaps it is a misunderstanding of the verse or another translation issue that is going on.

For me, I do not believe that we get a Free Pass to heavan just because one is a Christian.
For the sins that we have committed we are accountable.

Thoughts/Opinions?

[Ickisrulz]

Thoughts/Opinions?

My thought is that you need to take a couple courses (or read good books) in biblical interpretation and basic doctrine. Then you need to read the entire New Testament keeping in mind context and setting aside biases.

[MT Gianni]

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-Chapter-7/
Here is a good place to start. I believe that vs 15-29 show that not all who claim to be saved will be.

[exile]

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" Romans 6:1-2 (E.S.V.)

As a Christian, do I still sin? Of course I do, for I am a sinner. As a Christian, am I free to sin? Of course not!

"Wretched man that I am? Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!..." Romans 7:24-25 (E.S.V.)

exile

[1hole]

"The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ." (Rom 6:23)

THAT is the meaning of Jesus' self sacrifice for each of us IF we will take his freely offered gift.

We should understand that the Bible was written by and directly to Jews; they know to use scripture to understand scripture. They usually had a sound knowledge of what we call the Old Testament so a lot of things that are puzzeling to secular gentiles was/is quite clear to them.

Any 12 year old can read the Bible but no 12 year old mentality can grasp the deeper message(s) behind the words. The application of New Testament scripture certainly applies to gentiles but scripture isn't written like a modern school text book, if we want to know what the Biblical message really is we have to know what all of scripture says. Picking an interesting verse here and yonder, lifting things out of its rightful context and adding our own opinions of what we think it means is a near certain path to Biblical confusion. If we want to know what the Bible means we need to first read it to see what's there; then read it again and compare to other verses that address the same issues and prayerfully contemplate what the underlying message is. Otherwise our ponderous intellectual guesses on the web are just blabbering in public about spiritual things of which we're largely ignorant of. (IMHO of course, no offense intended.)

Most of us need help in our Bible study. The single best Bible study aid I've found is Nave's Topical Bible. It has a list of topics and then gives every major verse that illuminates that topic; it's just topical data, there's nothing denominational about it. Second and third best study aids are a Strong's Complete Concordance and a Bible dictionary coded to Strong's word numbering system (I can't read Greek or Latin but I can read Arabic numbers!).

There are many other very good study aid books of course (including "transliterated" Bibles - i.e., straight word-for-word translations that are also coded word-for-word in Strong's numbering system) but those three make a solid core for any serious armchair theologian's Bible study library.

[1hole]

.... To exagerate a bit, one could conclude that because they believe in Jesus they can have a good time, do sinful things and not worry about it because they are "Saved". >>>>> Thoughts/Opinions?

That IS an "exaggeration", i.e., a lie, but it seems some self proclaimed "christians" believe it to be true. It's called "easy belief", a shallow acceptance of a concept of something they really don't believe but hope it will be sufficient for fire insurance. Wrong.

A new believer will ALWAYS be spiritually changed by his new belief, he becomes a spiritual "new creature in Christ". God judges the heart, no one will be perfect in this life but if there's no heart change there's really been no changed belief in spite of what's professed.

Shallow, self-saved people are those Jesus addresses in Mat 7:21-29. To know the good news but refuse to fully except Jesus as Lord of life is as certain a path to hell as happily living in a cat house while claiming to be a "believer" and that's sad.

[Rizzo]

My thought is that you need to take a couple courses (or read good books) in biblical interpretation and basic doctrine. Then you need to read the entire New Testament keeping in mind context and setting aside biases.

This seems to be your standard reply when addressing issues like this.
You take the time to type out your reply but won't take the time to comment, in your own words, on the topic at hand like some of the other replies.
Why is that?

I sense that you think that the question(s) or topics are ridiculous and you just shake your head and type out what you did above.
Do this, then do that, then do that again and then you'll see what I mean, is what I'm getting from you.

I have done a bit of reading and know where I am at and am willing to discuss my views. Unlike you in this instance.

Don't want to discuss the topic(s), no problem here, but criticizing the one asking the questions seems a bit rude to me.

[Rizzo]

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-Chapter-7/
Here is a good place to start. I believe that vs 15-29 show that not all who claim to be saved will be.
Thanks for the link.
I read it and see what you mean.

[Rizzo]

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" Romans 6:1-2 (E.S.V.)

As a Christian, do I still sin? Of course I do, for I am a sinner. As a Christian, am I free to sin? Of course not!

"Wretched man that I am? Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!..." Romans 7:24-25 (E.S.V.)

exile

Well, your Bible verses do not really address the question asked in the OP.
Also, you state that you are a sinner (as we all are) but are not free to sin.

Of course we are free to sin, if we choose to. Free will, right?
So we continue to sin despite the free gift of salvation it would seem.
How does accountability for our sins enter into this since Jesus paid the price for our sins?

[Rizzo]

"The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ." (Rom 6:23)

THAT is the meaning of Jesus' self sacrifice for each of us IF we will take his freely offered gift.

We should understand that the Bible was written by and directly to Jews; they know to use scripture to understand scripture. They usually had a sound knowledge of what we call the Old Testament so a lot of things that are puzzeling to secular gentiles was/is quite clear to them.

Any 12 year old can read the Bible but no 12 year old mentality can grasp the deeper message(s) behind the words. The application of New Testament scripture certainly applies to gentiles but scripture isn't written like a modern school text book, if we want to know what the Biblical message really is we have to know what all of scripture says. Picking an interesting verse here and yonder, lifting things out of its rightful context and adding our own opinions of what we think it means is a near certain path to Biblical confusion. If we want to know what the Bible means we need to first read it to see what's there; then read it again and compare to other verses that address the same issues and prayerfully contemplate what the underlying message is. Otherwise our ponderous intellectual guesses on the web are just blabbering in public about spiritual things of which we're largely ignorant of. (IMHO of course, no offense intended.)

Most of us need help in our Bible study. The single best Bible study aid I've found is Nave's Topical Bible. It has a list of topics and then gives every major verse that illuminates that topic; it's just topical data, there's nothing denominational about it. Second and third best study aids are a Strong's Complete Concordance and a Bible dictionary coded to Strong's word numbering system (I can't read Greek or Latin but I can read Arabic numbers!).

There are many other very good study aid books of course (including "transliterated" Bibles - i.e., straight word-for-word translations that are also coded word-for-word in Strong's numbering system) but those three make a solid core for any serious armchair theologian's Bible study library.

Your emphasis on the need to seek alternate sources to understand what is meant in the Bible rings true, unfortunately.
I have read the Bible and do read alternate sources that go through the Bible (mainly NT) and address the verses with a point of view that tends to make sense to me.

I can't help but think of a new Truth seeker looking to learn about God and what life is all about.
The Bible does not do a good job of that. It does give a good historical record of past times but even for the apostles, what Jesus was saying in some instances was over their heads.

However, you did not address your views on what seems to be a conflicting notion that we are accountable for our sins yet we are promised a gift of salvation (In religion, salvation generally refers to the saving of the soul from sin and its consequences.).

[Ickisrulz]

This seems to be your standard reply when addressing issues like this.
You take the time to type out your reply but won't take the time to comment, in your own words, on the topic at hand like some of the other replies.
Why is that?

I sense that you think that the question(s) or topics are ridiculous and you just shake your head and type out what you did above.
Do this, then do that, then do that again and then you'll see what I mean, is what I'm getting from you.

I have done a bit of reading and know where I am at and am willing to discuss my views. Unlike you in this instance.

Don't want to discuss the topic(s), no problem here, but criticizing the one asking the questions seems a bit rude to me.

No, that is not my standard answer to questions on this sub-forum. I generally just answer the question as it is asked. However, in your case, the best answer I could possibly give is that you learn how the Bible should be interpreted and how generations of Christians have arrived at basic answers we call "doctrine." I think I have suggested this to you in the past.

You seem to have very little understanding of the Bible. For example, you routinely claim the idea of reincarnation is found in Scriptures and you claim the Bible is full of contradictions. It is not.

But to answer your question: A true Christian is forgiven their past, present and future sins. A true Christian does not live a life characterized by sin, but they will still sin. A true Christian would never say, "Let's get the most out of Jesus' sacrifice and live like the devil."

James is the most famous for saying that mental assent is not true salvation. He claims that a person of faith demonstrates that faith by the way he lives. We are saved by faith and that faith can be seen in how we act. Paul says the same thing, although more gently. His letters outline what God has done for us and then implore that we live a life pleasing to God (e.g., Romans 12:1, Ephesians 4:1).

The preceding is plainly spelled out in the New Testament and is no great mystery to anyone familiar with those 27 books.

[1hole]

Well said. ^^^^

[GhostHawk]

Agree, well said Ickisrulz.

I don't call myself a Christian, but the Lord might disagree with me.
I do sin, but I try NOT to, and I try to learn from those mistakes and not repeat them.

I do believe we need to accept his grace, ask for redemption and accept it.
And try to live our lives so that others can see him in us.

IMO it takes more than acceptance and will or intent.

We need to SERVE, and accept him as Master. So that it is HIS will that is done, not ours.
And good works in his name never hurt anyone. As long as they are good works.

[dangitgriff]

My thought is that you need to take a couple courses (or read good books) in biblical interpretation and basic doctrine. Then you need to read the entire New Testament keeping in mind context and setting aside biases.

‘Man, The Saint’, by Fr. Jesús Urteaga is another outstanding read.

[dtknowles]

Well, your Bible verses do not really address the question asked in the OP.
Also, you state that you are a sinner (as we all are) but are not free to sin.

Of course we are free to sin, if we choose to. Free will, right?
So we continue to sin despite the free gift of salvation it would seem.
How does accountability for our sins enter into this since Jesus paid the price for our sins?

Un-repented sins are not forgiven. God knows your true heart. If you are not sorry enough to do all you could to make amends then you are evil, lazy or greedy and will not be forgiven. Jesus paid the price for those who truly love him and are heartfully sorry for their offenses. If you don't love Jesus enough to do as he would do, you are not holding up your end of the bargain. Look into your heart, do you regret your sins, do you do all you can to right the wrongs you have done? Do you ask God to show you where you have been wrong that you might not be aware of so that you can fix it.

Make your peace with God not the Bible.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

Un-repented sins are not forgiven. God knows your true heart. If you are not sorry enough to do all you could to make amends then you are evil, lazy or greedy and will not be forgiven. Jesus paid the price for those who truly love him and are heartfully sorry for their offenses. If you don't love Jesus enough to do as he would do, you are not holding up your end of the bargain. Look into your heart, do you regret your sins, do you do all you can to right the wrongs you have done? Do you ask God to show you where you have been wrong that you might not be aware of so that you can fix it.

Make your peace with God not the Bible.

Tim

Your requirement for forgiveness involves the emotions. We cannot help how we feel about things. We can only help how we behave. There are plenty of sins I have committed in the past that I would not repeat given the chance, but I am not entirely broken up about*. Repentance is a mindset, an intellectual exercise.

Christians are not to be ruled by their emotions. Christians should educate themselves concerning what God wants and act accordingly. Biblical love is not an emotion. It is behavior that does what is best for those we encounter in our lives.

*In fact, they give me some pretty good memories (the writer of Hebrews mentions the "fleeting pleasures of sin").

[dangitgriff]

What we need to do to get Christians back on the right track is to kick off another round of Crusades and turn God’s warriors loose on the Middle East again, since it was so successful the first go-round.
Oh, right...Christian Uncle Sam has that covered. Seems legit. No one revels in Divine Provenance as smugly as we Americans.
Just add the cost of it to our tab. We’ll pay for it later (wink, wink [emoji6]).

[William Yanda]

"Further, the "our sins" suggest the sins of those at that time and also all future sins of everyone.
One could say that since we all sin we are "covered" (forgiven?) by Jesus' death by that Bible verse.
To exagerate a bit, one could conclude that because they believe in Jesus they can have a good time, do sinful things and not worry about it because they are "Saved"." Rizzo

Not if you read the epistle of James

[dangitgriff]

Ah, yes...the Epistle of James. That’s the one wherein he describes how Jesus’s own followers betrayed him in the court of Pontius Pilate by remaining silent when Pilate asked if any present would vouch for Jesus and take him out of the city, in order to avoid sentencing him to death.
By the way, the Book of Barnabus claims the identity of Jesus was mistaken for another apostle. We may have been in the right pasture buying the wrong bull lo these 2,000 years.

[Rizzo]

No, that is not my standard answer to questions on this sub-forum. I generally just answer the question as it is asked. However, in your case, the best answer I could possibly give is that you learn how the Bible should be interpreted and how generations of Christians have arrived at basic answers we call "doctrine." I think I have suggested this to you in the past.
Yes, after re-reading my reply to you, I should have said it was your standard answer to me.
I apologize.
I actually enjoy reading your various posts in this forum.


You seem to have very little understanding of the Bible. For example, you routinely claim the idea of reincarnation is found in Scriptures and you claim the Bible is full of contradictions. It is not.

Well, we've been down that road before and you claimed there was not even a suggestion in the Bible about Karma/Reincarnation.
I provided several examples from the Bible but you did not reply.
Then, I asked why you did not comment, you gave me a similar reply as above (I need to read or take a course in Bible interpretation).

I don't recall stating the Bible is full of contradictions.
There are contradictions though.
Do a web search on "contradictions in the Bible" and you'll see what I mean.

It may seem to you that I am bashing the Bible. I am not.
I am just pointing out areas that do not make sense to me or points of view that may not be to your liking.
Like I've said before, I consider myself a Hybrid Christian (for lack of better words).
That is, I believe the principles and teachings of Jesus but also believe in Karma/Reincarnation.
I also believe it was part of the belief system that early Christians had until the Bible was put together and books that supported those issues were thrown out and burned.


But to answer your question: A true Christian is forgiven their past, present and future sins. A true Christian does not live a life characterized by sin, but they will still sin. A true Christian would never say, "Let's get the most out of Jesus' sacrifice and live like the devil."
I agree that a true Christian would not say or do that.
It was an exaggeration to make a point.

For me, there is still that issue of if we are accountable for our sins now and in the future, even though there is the free gift of salvation.
I see that apparently that is not an issue with you.

I know, I know, go read some more ((grin)

Thanks for your reply.

[Rizzo]

Un-repented sins are not forgiven. God knows your true heart. If you are not sorry enough to do all you could to make amends then you are evil, lazy or greedy and will not be forgiven. Jesus paid the price for those who truly love him and are heartfully sorry for their offenses. If you don't love Jesus enough to do as he would do, you are not holding up your end of the bargain. Look into your heart, do you regret your sins, do you do all you can to right the wrongs you have done? Do you ask God to show you where you have been wrong that you might not be aware of so that you can fix it.

Make your peace with God not the Bible.

Tim

Tim, I like your reply. Thanks.
It goes into an area that lies between what is written in the Bible and what is meant.
"Unrepented sins are not forgiven"
"God knows your true heart"
Makes sense.
Despite the free gift of salvation, there are still caveats involved.

[Ickisrulz]

Yes, after re-reading my reply to you, I should have said it was your standard answer to me.
I apologize.
I actually enjoy reading your various posts in this forum.



Well, we've been down that road before and you claimed there was not even a suggestion in the Bible about Karma/Reincarnation.
I provided several examples from the Bible but you did not reply.
Then, I asked why you did not comment, you gave me a similar reply as above (I need to read or take a course in Bible interpretation).

I don't recall stating the Bible is full of contradictions.
There are contradictions though.
Do a web search on "contradictions in the Bible" and you'll see what I mean.

It may seem to you that I am bashing the Bible. I am not.
I am just pointing out areas that do not make sense to me or points of view that may not be to your liking.
Like I've said before, I consider myself a Hybrid Christian (for lack of better words).
That is, I believe the principles and teachings of Jesus but also believe in Karma/Reincarnation.
I also believe it was part of the belief system that early Christians had until the Bible was put together and books that supported those issues were thrown out and burned.


I agree that a true Christian would not say or do that.
It was an exaggeration to make a point.

For me, there is still that issue of if we are accountable for our sins now and in the future, even though there is the free gift of salvation.
I see that apparently that is not an issue with you.

I know, I know, go read some more ((grin)

Thanks for your reply.

There just isn't any answer, other than the one I have given you, for someone who thinks the Bible teaches reincarnation or that the early Church believed such a thing. The verses you use to support this idea are taken out of context, ignore the way Jews communicated and dismiss all the sections of Scripture that clearly teach that you have one life here on earth and then you face judgement. I can only imagine what else you might believe the Bible teaches.

The only beneficial answer for you, assuming you really want to understand what the Bible actually teaches, is to get some training in biblical interpretation and doctrine. If you are happy popping up here with posts that clearly go against the Bible's teaching (for shock value?), then you cannot be helped or reasoned with.

[Rizzo]

There just isn't any answer, other than the one I have given you, for someone who thinks the Bible teaches reincarnation or that the early Church believed such a thing. The verses you use to support this idea are taken out of context, ignore the way Jews communicated and dismiss all the sections of Scripture that clearly teach that you have one life here on earth and then you face judgement. I can only imagine what else you might believe the Bible teaches.
Well, this discussion went sideways a bit.

I did not state that the Bible teaches reincarnation.
As you know, you won't find that word in the Bible but there are verses sprinkled in the Bible that suggest Karma/Reincarnation, as I provided to you in the past.
You read it one way, I read it another.

The early church did not believe in such a thing?
With all of your reading and studying, I guess you haven't read about the Gnostics?
Perhaps you also need to do some reading.



The only beneficial answer for you, assuming you really want to understand what the Bible actually teaches, is to get some training in biblical interpretation and doctrine.

Seems I've read that before.


If you are happy popping up here with posts that clearly go against the Bible's teaching (for shock value?), then you cannot be helped or reasoned with.

Shock value? <sigh>
No, Ickisrulz. Geez.

Provocative issues that seem like a good topic for discussion, yes.
I think that some here view opposing views as an attack on their belief system.
That is not my intent.
Some issues make people think and make a reply and then become the benefit of everyone.
I enjoy reading opposing views. It makes me think and sometimes I do some research.

"....then you cannot be helped or reasoned with...."
another <sigh>.
Ickisrulz, then save yourself some frustration and don't reply to my posts.

[Ickisrulz]

The early church did not believe in such a thing?
With all of your reading and studying, I guess you haven't read about the Gnostics?
Perhaps you also need to do some reading.

The gnostics were not part of the Church. These people sought to corrupt the Gospel and the teachings of Jesus. The Apostles fought against these false doctrines. But even now we see their ideas raising their ugly heads...right here on this forum!

[dtknowles]

Your requirement for forgiveness involves the emotions. We cannot help how we feel about things. We can only help how we behave. There are plenty of sins I have committed in the past that I would not repeat given the chance, but I am not entirely broken up about*. Repentance is a mindset, an intellectual exercise.

Christians are not to be ruled by their emotions. Christians should educate themselves concerning what God wants and act accordingly. Biblical love is not an emotion. It is behavior that does what is best for those we encounter in our lives.

*In fact, they give me some pretty good memories (the writer of Hebrews mentions the "fleeting pleasures of sin").

The pleasures of sin must be fleeting if that sin is to be forgiven. If you have good memories of sins you committed you need to seek God's help. Understand if no one was harmed then there was no sin, if someone was harmed then the sin must be repented and amends made for that sin to be forgiven. Repentance does not need to be an emotional exercise, it can be the intellectual realization of the harm done so that proper amends can be made. How can you have some pretty good memories of hurting someone, that would be evil. Like I said, if no one was harmed then there was no sin. If the harm was just to yourself, that might be a gray zone. We can help how we feel about things. The best way is to seek the light of truth, to understand why something is wrong with how we feel and teach yourself to feel properly about it. Sometimes it will come to you as an epiphany and hit you like a brick.

Tim

[1hole]

"Unrepented sins are not forgiven

Other than RCC doctrine and, okay, a few hyper-legalistic backcountry evangelical groups, no matter how much human sense it might make there is nothing in scripture that agrees with that, at least not as you mean it.

Thing is, if we start adding to or subtracting from scripture as we please we may as well toss the Bible and just sit around and decide for ourselves what Godly "truths" makes the most sense to us and doing that makes no sense at all to me.


"God knows your true heart"

Absolutely, you've got that exactly right! The heart IS what God measures so adding man's ideas of the extras God should require for everything to make sense to us is exactly the type of error the Pharasees of Jesus' day made and that was some BAD ju-ju!


Despite the free gift of salvation there are still crevats involved.

Wrong, there are no carvats involved; either salvation is a free gift or it's not. Truth is, we must be saved by the unearned, blood bought free gift of salvation that Jesus offers or there is no gospel for us at all. And, thank God, there IS a fabulous gospel! :)

As a closing thought, everyone should know there is no spiritual halfway house, or purgatory, where the not-totally-forgiven dead must suffer a bit to work off unrepented sins ... or pay a priest to buy their way out early. That un-Biblical idea adds another personal effort to obtain God's "free gift of salvation" ... and both doctrines are blasphemy.

So, no, there are no caveats to salvation involved. Either Jesus' blood bought "free gift of salvation" is free or it's not, there is no division of labors effectively saying, "Jesus will do his part if I do mine". Earned (pagan) salvations are hopefully achieved by following a well stated set of rules and works but it surely isn't Christianity.

When a Christian dies he will immediately awake in the eternal loving presence of God. There will be no fearful cowering and trembling naked before a throne waiting to hear if we made it or not, the mere fact that we stand in the presence of Jesus is proof we have indeed made it! (See John 3:16-18)

[dtknowles]

.....When a Christian dies he will immediately awake in the eternal loving presence of God. There will be no fearful cowering and trembling naked before a throne waiting to hear if we made it or not, the mere fact that we stand in the presence of Jesus is proof we have indeed made it! (See John 3:16-18)

Many are invited, but few are chosen. This free gift has no caveats involved, you either have a pure heart or not. God is not going to tell you why you were not chosen, no list of unforgiven sins. You are either good enough or you are not. The real question is how good is good enough. If many are invited, but few are chosen then I suspect you have to be very very good. What do you think maybe a dozen of the 50,000 members of this forum will make the cut?

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

The pleasures of sin must be fleeting if that sin is to be forgiven. If you have good memories of sins you committed you need to seek God's help. Understand if no one was harmed then there was no sin, if someone was harmed then the sin must be repented and amends made for that sin to be forgiven. Repentance does not need to be an emotional exercise, it can be the intellectual realization of the harm done so that proper amends can be made. How can you have some pretty good memories of hurting someone, that would be evil. Like I said, if no one was harmed then there was no sin. If the harm was just to yourself, that might be a gray zone. We can help how we feel about things. The best way is to seek the light of truth, to understand why something is wrong with how we feel and teach yourself to feel properly about it. Sometimes it will come to you as an epiphany and hit you like a brick.

Tim

I am glad God is my judge. He is exceedingly generous and kind.

[a danl]

Un-repented sins are not forgiven. God knows your true heart. If you are not sorry enough to do all you could to make amends then you are evil, lazy or greedy and will not be forgiven. Jesus paid the price for those who truly love him and are heartfully sorry for their offenses. If you don't love Jesus enough to do as he would do, you are not holding up your end of the bargain. Look into your heart, do you regret your sins, do you do all you can to right the wrongs you have done? Do you ask God to show you where you have been wrong that you might not be aware of so that you can fix it.

Make your peace with God not the Bible.

Tim

TIM, you are adding works to repentance . ephesians 2 verse 8 & 9 . not a result of works, so that no one may boast

[dtknowles]

TIM, you are adding works to repentance . ephesians 2 verse 8 & 9 . not a result of works, so that no one may boast

To boast is a sin of pride and harms everyone who hears the boast. If you cause harm and can make it right, certainly you must make it right. You can call that works if you want but modeling Jesus, you will do good works, it is unavoidable.

Tim

[1hole]

What do you think maybe a dozen of the 50,000 members of this forum will make the cut?

Tim

Timmy, your lips are overflowing again; I've never suggested or even thought that. So, once again you're putting your words and thoughts in my mouth and that isn't sanitary. Stop it.

I don't know any members of this forum and I never make judgements about such things as spiritual "cuts" so you'll have to handle things like that for yourself because I'll have no part in it.

[ioon44]

After reading this thread and others in "Deep Theological Discussion" I am always led to Luke ch 18 vs 8 and ponder the question Jesus ask.

[Rizzo]

After reading this thread and others in "Deep Theological Discussion" I am always led to Luke ch 18 vs 8 and ponder the question Jesus ask.
Well, since you did not state what it says, here is what that verse says, for everyone that is not a Chapter/verse type:

8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

So what are you trying to say here?
I do not see where if refers to the topic discussed.
What did I miss?

[Rizzo]

The gnostics were not part of the Church. These people sought to corrupt the Gospel and the teachings of Jesus. The Apostles fought against these false doctrines. But even now we see their ideas raising their ugly heads...right here on this forum!

OK, the Gnostics were the Early Christians.
Better?

[Ickisrulz]

OK, the Gnostics were the Early Christians.
Better?

No, Gnostic ideas were outside/opposed to the doctrine delivered by the Apostles. Are you claiming that First Century Christians were all Gnostic in their beliefs? While a Christian's beliefs do not have to be 100% correct, Gnostic teachings not only contradict the Gospel message, they are damaging. This is why the Apostles (the leaders of the First Century churches) fought against it.

You can believe whatever you want. But I will once again suggest you get some actual training in biblical studies. When I read your posts, I don't get the idea you see the Bible as being your authority for faith and conduct. So maybe a reasonable understating of the Scriptures is not your goal.

[Rizzo]

Wrong, there are no carvats involved; either salvation is a free gift or it's not.

Well, that is how I also understand what the free gift is but got hung up on us being accountable for our sins.
It made sense to me when Tim replied about no unrepented sin is forgiven.
That made sense to me, but now.....
Free means free, that also makes sense.

I guess it is a moot point for me since I do believe we are accountable for all of our sins.
It's just another thing in the Bible that isn't clear to me because it conjurs up questions such as I've made here in this thread.


As a closing thought, everyone should know there is no spiritual halfway house, or purgatory, where the not-totally-forgiven dead must suffer a bit to work off unrepented sins ... or pay a priest to buy their way out early. That un-Biblical idea adds another personal effort to obtain God's "free gift of salvation" ... and both doctrines are blasphemy.

Well, that obviously is your opinion, but there are other belief systems.
My view/belief is that we are accountable (Karma) for our bad actions.
This plays out in the afterlife where our good/bad Karma is evaluated (judged?) by God.
Maybe we move on into the Spiritual Realms or maybe we have to reincarnate to give us the opportunity to squelch any material desires we had unfulfilled before death (desire for that new Corvette, being President, Pastor, etc. that keep us somewhat anchored to this Material World) and also to negate the unrepented sin that we had.


When a Christian dies he will immediately awake in the eternal loving presence of God. There will be no fearful cowering and trembling naked before a throne waiting to hear if we made it or not, the mere fact that we stand in the presence of Jesus is proof we have indeed made it! (See John 3:16-18)

Perhaps, but Jesus might say to you "Ah-h-h-h, you're not quite there. You need to go back for a few more incarnations.

Hopefully not.

[Rizzo]

OK, the Gnostics were the Early Christians.
Better?


Ickisrulz;4947595]No, Gnostic ideas were outside/opposed to the doctrine delivered by the Apostles. Are you claiming that First Century Christians were all Gnostic in their beliefs?

Wow, you're a tough one Ickisrulz. LOL!!
I say that with no disrespect.

No, I am not saying the first century Christians were ALL Gnostics.
How about this one....
The Gnostics were a group of Early Christians who believed in reincarnation.
Hmmm....?


You can believe whatever you want. But I will once again suggest you get some actual training in biblical studies.
Well, thank you......and you can believe whatever you want to.
Still beating that dead horse though, eh?

[exile]

Hebrews 9:27.

exile

[Ickisrulz]

How about this one....
The Gnostics were a group of Early Christians who believed in reincarnation.
Hmmm....?

The problem here might be that we have different views of what a Christian is. The meaning of being a Christian can be found...in the Bible.

[Rizzo]

Hebrews 9:27.

exile

Rizzo 1:1

[Rizzo]

The problem here might be that we have different views of what a Christian is. The meaning of being a Christian can be found...in the Bible.

Semantics.

Gnostics aside.....

If one believes that God sent His Son (Jesus) and they accept His teachings (Sermon on the Mount etc.) and try to live by Jesus' teachings and the humble way that he lived on earth...would YOU consider them a Christian?

[Ickisrulz]

Semantics.

Gnostics aside.....

If one believes that God sent His Son (Jesus) and they accept His teachings (Sermon on the Mount etc.) and try to live by Jesus' teachings and the humble way that he lived on earth...would YOU consider them a Christian?

No. A Christian places his faith (100%) in God's work through Jesus for salvation. This faith manifests itself through a change in behavior. Belief in God and Jesus and trying to live like Jesus without the faith in God's redeeming work misses the mark entirely.

A belief that if we didn't get it right this time around, but we might do better next time when we are reincarnated is so far removed from Christianity it shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath.

[1hole]

Semantics.

Gnostics aside.....

If one believes that God sent His Son (Jesus) and they accept His teachings (Sermon on the Mount etc.) and try to live by Jesus' teachings and the humble way that he lived on earth...would YOU consider them a Christian?

Hardly matters what any of us may consider does it?

Read Mat 7:21-29 and tell us if you would consider those who have worked so hard to be good and earn salvation are Christian.

Read it and think; maybe there's a bit more to being a Christian than hard work and doing the best they can to achieve a personal goal they and many others have totally misunderstood??

Bottom line, God measures the heart.

[dtknowles]

Hardly matters what any of us may consider does it?

Read Mat 7:21-29 and tell us if you would consider those who have worked so hard to be good and earn salvation are Christian.

Read it and think; maybe there's a bit more to being a Christian than hard work and doing the best they can to achieve a personal goal they and many others have totally misunderstood??

Bottom line, God measures the heart.

God measures the heart and I believe that you don't have to be a Christian to be saved, you just have to have a good heart. The bible is a guide but not the law. It is a bunch of stories to teach what a good heart is and a bunch of stuff men added to make Christianity a Religion and a movement, to form a religious State from the Ashes of Rome Empire and to push Muslims out of Europe and the Holy Lands. As is much of the work of men, this flawed polity caused as much division as it did unity and persecuted many to the point of death. Notice how many churches/religions Christianity has splintered off into. There is no one True Church, not the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox even though there were the Churches of the first centuries. Not any of the myriad of Protestant Churches that broke away and reformed the Church that Peter created.

Tim

[ioon44]

I guess I am back at Luke ch 18 vs 8.

[1hole]

God measures the heart and I believe that you don't have to be a Christian to be saved, you just have to have a good heart.

What any of us "believe" about Christianity is irrelevant if it's not based in reality. How many ignorant people would have to "believe" earth is flat before their beliefs mattered?? But, like a round earth, God is real; that means God is important. But, no man's self-centered ruminations about God are real and therefore they don't qualify for serious people to contemplate.

Think: If God and his Bible aren't real then there couldn't be a real heaven or hell so anyone's salvation would be a moot question, wouldn't it? All of your unreal contemplations about God and salvation are drifting clouds of smoke in your mind, not reality.


The bible is a guide but not the law. It is a bunch of stories to teach what a good heart is ...

If the Bible isn't what it says it is then it's a lie, a total farce and tells us nothing important about "good hearts". But the Bible is true so your nebulous beliefs are only your invented views and carries only the spiritual weight they deserve. Zilch.


... and a bunch of stuff men added to make Christianity a Religion and a movement, to form a religious State from the Ashes of Rome Empire and to push Muslims out of Europe and the Holy Lands. As is much of the work of men, this flawed polity caused as much division as it did unity and persecuted many to the point of death.

Ahhh ... no offense intended Timmy but all of that's just factually dumm.

(1) When the Bible canon was completed Rome was at the top of her power and no "ashes" were even on the horizon.

(2) There was no Islam at all when the Bible was completed and Mohammad himself would not be born for another 200 +/- years.

(3) People have indeed died, many along with their families, for what they knew to be true about Christianity. Those thousands of people, including most of the apostles, didn't/wouldn't die miserably because of insisting on something that isn't true.


Notice how many churches/religions Christianity has splintered off into.

That's a confused historical understanding based on the teachings of your RC youth. First, Christianity is our religion, it is not our's or anyone else's "church". Various Christian "churches/religions" as you understand them simply don't exist.

The one "True Church" exists as the Bride of Christ and includes all true believers from all ages. True believers are spiritually born again as new creatures in Christ when they come to faith/trust in Jesus alone and it has nothing to do with any denomination ... or the fuzzy dreams of misguided religious men.

The idea of various other "religions/churches" is a misleading teaching about group variations is from gross errors of the Catholic denomination proclaiming itself to be the "one true church" but, even historically, that's NEVER been so.

Christianity is truly ONE religion and, if we are Christian at all, we comprise ONE body in Christ even if we disagree amongst ourselves about a few non-critical Christian doctrines; your oft stated errors are critical!


There is no one True Church, not the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox even though there were the Churches of the first centuries. Not any of the myriad of Protestant Churches that broke away and reformed the Church that Peter created.

You're right at first, then you continue and expose the historical errors perpetrated by the RCC.

(1) Peter "created" nothing and the RCC mistranslation of "this rock" is a manufactured error. Fact is, other than a self-serving tradition, there is no evidence that Peter was even a strong influence in Rome.

Peter was/is the man later religious leaders in Rome looked back at and grasped onto to give themselves a bit of credibility in the mid-300s; that was a LOOONG time after the church began so there were no evil conspiracies by Luther and Calvin against poor ol' Catholic popes at play! But, the claim sorta worked for Rome way back then and I guess it still does, sorta; your commenting about Peter at all sorta proves my point!

(2) Contrary to RCC teachings, not all who are not Roman Catholic are "Protestants."

The ONLY denominations rightly called "Protestant" are those who protested and, at risk of their lives, rightly broke away from the spiritual and moral depravity of the RCC as it existed in the 1,500s; i.e., Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglican/Church Of England/Episcopals. Other denominations such as Baptists, Methodists, etc., did not protest against or break out of Roman Catholicism at all so they are in no way Protestant. We might fairly include the massive break-away of the Orthodox splinters, circa 800 AD, as protesters but no one calls them Protestant so I won't either.

[Rizzo]

Hardly matters what any of us may consider does it?
In the end,...no it does matter.
But it mattered to me what Ickisrulz thought, so I asked him.


Read Mat 7:21-29 and tell us if you would consider those who have worked so hard to be good and earn salvation are Christian.

Read it and think; maybe there's a bit more to being a Christian than hard work and doing the best they can to achieve a personal goal they and many others have totally misunderstood??


I am familiar with those verses.
I did re-read them and it really does not address the issue of what makes one a Christian.
This perhaps comes close to what a Christian is:
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock."

We probably need to read some books on Bible interpretation in order to understand what they say it means, but I see it as it saying that by living a life guided by Jesus' teachings, we have a good Spiritual foundation.

[Ickisrulz]

We probably need to read some books on Bible interpretation in order to understand what they say it means, but I see it as it saying that by living a life guided by Jesus' teachings, we have a good Spiritual foundation.

I can see you're being flippant with this comment. So I guess you don't understand why someone might need to learn proper biblical interpretation. The most important reason is to understand how the original audience would have understood the text in question. In order to do this we must understand how they thought, what they were familiar with, what customs were in place, how they used language, what was going on in history during the text's creation (and before), how the text relates to other biblical writings, etc.

You can read the Bible continuously, but if you don't know the background information, much will remain beyond your grasp. This is not to suggest the Bible has any hidden meanings. It does not. It is just that the modern audience is far removed from the original audience and we need to adjust the way we approach it.

I know that there are many Christians who believe that the Holy Spirit will miracle biblical meaning into their brains. But this idea is foreign to the New Testament's teaching. Biblical understanding requires work. Not to mention that God gave teachers to the Church for a reason.

I don't push any particular denomination's doctrine (I myself graduated from Southwestern Assemblies of God University). I just suggest using a good text on biblical interpretation to develop a sound foundation (How to Read the Bible for all Its Worth is excellent for the casual reader). Then I suggest reading scholarly commentaries for in-depth study (the NICOT/NICNT series are very good). Good commentators will discuss all possible interpretations of passages when there are disagreements. No pastor or local Bible study will give you as much information as a scholarly commentary.

[1hole]

In the end,...no it does matter.
But it mattered to me what Ickisrulz thought, so I asked him.


Riz, you're yelping before you're struck! My post #46 was, as noted in the first line and later, responding to Tim in quotes and each of my comments were focused responses to him, not you. I don't know how I could have been more clear about that. Tim and I disagree - a LOT- but we do understand each others good intentions. ???

Icks is a good man to question, I've observed that he knows what he's talking about.

[Rizzo]

I can see you're being flippant with this comment. So I guess you don't understand why someone might need to learn proper biblical interpretation. The most important reason is to understand how the original audience would have understood the text in question. In order to do this we must understand how they thought, what they were familiar with, what customs were in place, how they used language, what was going on in history during the text's creation (and before), how the text relates to other biblical writings, etc.

You can read the Bible continuously, but if you don't know the background information, much will remain beyond your grasp. This is not to suggest the Bible has any hidden meanings. It does not. It is just that the modern audience is far removed from the original audience and we need to adjust the way we approach it.

I know that there are many Christians who believe that the Holy Spirit will miracle biblical meaning into their brains. But this idea is foreign to the New Testament's teaching. Biblical understanding requires work. Not to mention that God gave teachers to the Church for a reason.

I don't push any particular denomination's doctrine (I myself graduated from Southwestern Assemblies of God University). I just suggest using a good text on biblical interpretation to develop a sound foundation (How to Read the Bible for all Its Worth is excellent for the casual reader). Then I suggest reading scholarly commentaries for in-depth study (the NICOT/NICNT series are very good). Good commentators will discuss all possible interpretations of passages when there are disagreements. No pastor or local Bible study will give you as much information as a scholarly commentary.
Well, flippant was not the intention.
It was more of a humorous sarcasm that I was thinking when writing it.

I do appreciate your input and also the Bible interpretation suggestions.

[Rizzo]

Riz, you're yelping before you're struck! My post #46 was, as noted in the first line and later, responding to Tim in quotes and each of my comments were focused responses to him, not you. I don't know how I could have been more clear about that. Tim and I disagree - a LOT- but we do understand each others good intentions. ???

I think you are confused.
I was replying to Post #43, your reply to me.

[1hole]

I think you are confused.
I was replying to Post #43, your reply to me.

Well, I was confused! I do all of my responses with quotes because I know how common that confusion can be.

[Rizzo]

I guess I am back at Luke ch 18 vs 8.

Care to expand on that verse in your own words so that we (I) can understand what your point is?

[dtknowles]

Riz, you're yelping before you're struck! My post #46 was, as noted in the first line and later, responding to Tim in quotes and each of my comments were focused responses to him, not you. I don't know how I could have been more clear about that. Tim and I disagree - a LOT- but we do understand each others good intentions. ???

Icks is a good man to question, I've observed that he knows what he's talking about.

I do not see your intentions as good, you mock people and play games with their names. You deliberately call me Timmy to annoy me. I have seen you do the same with other peoples names and I guess you think is is cute but it is wrong and disrespectful.

I sign my posts with my real name, respectfully you should refer to me by my name not some nick name you make up for me.

Tim

[1hole]

You deliberately call me Timmy to annoy me. I have seen you do the same with other peoples names and I guess you think is is cute but it is wrong and disrespectful.
Tim

I'm a light hearted, direct and open guy, I do call some folk by other names but never anything disrespectful so I see nothing wrong about it.

I have a 55 year old good friend named Timmy, great guy, but I can't believe I'm the only person who has ever called you Timmy so you shouldn't be too dismayed. I'm old and nothing about me is "cute"! Come to think of it, I wasn't CUTE when I was 25. :)

[dtknowles]

I'm a light hearted, direct and open guy, I do call some folk by other names but never anything disrespectful so I see nothing wrong about it.

I have a 55 year old good friend named Timmy, great guy, but I can't believe I'm the only person who has ever called you Timmy so you shouldn't be too dismayed. I'm old and nothing about me is "cute"! Come to think of it, I wasn't CUTE when I was 25. :)

I have told you and everyone who calls me Timmy that I don't like it but you still do it and the other people who do it are not my friends, my friends understand and just call me Tim. It is disrespectful that you continue to call me Timmy after I asked you not too. You are just trying to get my goat, make all the excuses you want. You have changed other peoples names to things that are insulting as well.

Tim

[1hole]

I have told you and everyone who calls me Timmy that I don't like it but you still do it and the other people who do it are not my friends, my friends understand and just call me Tim. It is disrespectful that you continue to call me Timmy after I asked you not too.

You haven't told me nor anyone else I've read. Can't help but wonder why you're so touchy about something so trivial but ....


You are just trying to get my goat, make all the excuses you want.

You're projecting, some people like to do that. 'Specially self important ones who feel safe in putting their own words and thoughts into what others say and think. But please understand that I don't want your goat, I don't have a clue where your goat's stashed and couldn't care less so he's quite safe.

Try again and have a nice day. ;)

[Ickisrulz]

You haven't told me nor anyone else I've read. Can't help but wonder why you're so touchy about something so trivial but ....



You're projecting, some people like to do that. 'Specially self important ones who feel safe in putting their own words and thoughts into what others say and think. But please understand that I don't want your goat, I don't have a clue where your goat's stashed and couldn't care less so he's quite safe.

Try again and have a nice day. ;)

Why not just apologize and stop calling him "Timmy?"

[dtknowles]

You haven't told me nor anyone else I've read. Can't help but wonder why you're so touchy about something so trivial but ....



You're projecting, some people like to do that. 'Specially self important ones who feel safe in putting their own words and thoughts into what others say and think. But please understand that I don't want your goat, I don't have a clue where your goat's stashed and couldn't care less so he's quite safe.

Try again and have a nice day. ;)

Well, I told you then and now again so I expect it won't happen anymore. But see you are at it again, pretending you don't understand the phrase "get your goat." Maybe you are just poorly learned so I will explain.

Given the meaning of 'get your goat', we might expect to find goat as a slang term meaning anger or annoyance. That meaning is recorded in the US book Life in Sing Sing, 1904, which goat is given as a slang term for anger. The phrase originated in the US

Getting ones goat is getting someone angry. If you can make someone angry they are more likely to do something stupid. I feel you were trying to make me angry and to get me to counter in an insulting way in violation of the forum rules. I won't fall for such tactics. Maybe you don't even know that is what you were doing, I think that is just how you act on a subconscious level. You might just be a natural bully.

I am not projecting,

What is projecting emotions?
Projection is the act of presenting one’s emotions to the outside world without being consciously aware of it.

I am conscious of what I am attributing to you. It might be you who is projecting.

Tim

[1hole]

Why not just apologize and stop calling him "Timmy?"

Well, now that I know that it puts his panties in a wad I won't say TIMMY anymore. But, apologise? For what? For his almost certain deliberate misinterpreting and feeling sad about how he wants to twist what I said? I do think it would take a LOT more than calling him Timmy to do that! Thus, I believe his claiming offense is a ploy for sympathy.

I do apologise for what I've actually done wrong but I don't apologise for how others twist and distort what I've said and then claim hurt feelings based on how they twisted it. I mean, I'm an adult, I take responsibility for what I've actually said but I accept no responsibility for how a quivering snowflake misinterprets what I've said. "TIMMY" is not a profane or degrading word in any mature person's vocabulary!

Seeking public apologies have become the PC tool where snowflakes seek to humiliate others enough to stop crossing none existent "lines" they have drawn. I think we all know that contrived broken heart crimes are phony and the usual apologies are phony. No harm has been done to anyone here, including Tim, so this whole thing is silly. I don't do silly.

I prefer to be called Jim but I'm often called James and Jimmy; that's just the American way with names and I realize it. It's clear that no offense is intended with my alternate names so I take no offense. I believe that's the grown up way to handle it.

But, now that I know Tim feels insulted being called "Timmy", I don't want to wound his ego anymore so I won't call him that again. After all, he could be so hurt he might start trying to get MY goat and I sure don't want that! (But, my goat so little and so well hidden that I don't believe he could ever find or get it! ;))

[Combatmedic63]

To Rizzo:
My simple reply to all of your posts about the Bible, about Christ, about Salvation, etc...
Either accept Christ as your personal Savior and have your name permanently written in the Lamb's Book of Life or don't do it and wait for the end result. You will then have your definitive answer the moment you cease to exist. I will pray that you do accept Christ as your personal Savior because I don't want to see anyone suffer for eternity.

This is not a response to start another conversation, argument, disagreements, nor to garner a reply from you. The choice to believe what you want to believe is yours. I guarantee you will find out if all of your beliefs were correct or incorrect when you take your last breath. My faith tells me you will be proven incorrect.

[Rizzo]

To Rizzo:
My simple reply to all of your posts about the Bible, about Christ, about Salvation, etc...
Either accept Christ as your personal Savior and have your name permanently written in the Lamb's Book of Life or don't do it and wait for the end result. You will then have your definitive answer the moment you cease to exist. I will pray that you do accept Christ as your personal Savior because I don't want to see anyone suffer for eternity.

This is not a response to start another conversation, argument, disagreements, nor to garner a reply from you. The choice to believe what you want to believe is yours. I guarantee you will find out if all of your beliefs were correct or incorrect when you take your last breath. My faith tells me you will be proven incorrect.

Well, if you want to give me advice, criticize, etc. my beliefs, then that should have been in a PM (Personal Message) to me since you did not address the topic of this thread.

However,

My simple reply to all of your posts about the Bible, about Christ, about Salvation, etc...

So, you read all of my post here in DTD. Wow!
Pretty interesting stuff, eh?
I hope it opened up your mind a little.


Either accept Christ as your personal Savior and have your name permanently written in the Lamb's Book of Life or don't do it and wait for the end result. You will then have your definitive answer the moment you cease to exist.

Cease to exist?
We are all eternal beings. No?
Eternal:
Being without beginning or end.
Continuing without interruption; perpetual: synonym: continual.


I will pray that you do accept Christ as your personal Savior because I don't want to see anyone suffer for eternity.

No one goes to hell for eternity.


This is not a response to start another conversation, argument, disagreements, nor to garner a reply from you. The choice to believe what you want to believe is yours. I guarantee you will find out if all of your beliefs were correct or incorrect when you take your last breath. My faith tells me you will be proven incorrect.

This is not a reply to you to start another conversation, argument, disagreements, nor to garner a reply from you.


The choice to believe what you want to believe is yours. I guarantee you will find out if all of your beliefs were correct or incorrect when you take your last breath.

That will also apply to you as well.

Thank you for your concerns.... and thank you for your service.