45 ACP leading

[HumptyDumpty]

I am getting significant leading in both of my 1911's, when using 230 gr, .452, cast boolits. Now, I ordered a few commercially-produced rounds, with traditional lube grooves before committing to a mould, and had no issues. However, since I don't have a lubrisizer, I decided to go with a projectile optimized for use with Liquid Alox, of which I am using two coats. The lead is range-scrap, and the rounds are travelling at roughly 800 fps, using a 4.6 grain charge of 700x. Thoughts?

[roharmon]

My only suggestion is trying powder coat if at all possible. I shoot 230 grain, sized to .452 with 5 grains of 700X and no leading.

[Outpost75]

If leading with LLA a bullet of adequate hardness (12-143 BHN) does not fit the barrel, and is likely too small, or could be too soft <12 BHN.

Have you cast your chamber? What is the largest bullet diameter which will chamber freely and feed in your pistol?

Typical .45 ACP M1911 military barrels have shallow rifling and work best with milder loads and somewhat harder bullets. Wheelweights are fine at standard velocity and pressure. Your 4.5 grains of 700X sounds about right for wheelweight alloy or its equivalent, but if your range scrap is softer, then I would reduce the load to the minimum which cycles the pistol, about 4 grains should work OK at 700 fps.

[gwpercle]

!. Your boolits are too soft .
Mix the range scrap 50-50 with clip on wheel weights .

2. If the LLA tumble lubed boolits , with harder alloy , still lead you might want to try another method of lubrication . I never had great success with LLA ...in my opinion it's not the best lube in the world ...BUT it should work for 45 acp @800 fps ... there are some tricks you could try ...read the lube stickies .

I gave up on LLA and tumble lube in short order , bought a Lyman 450 Lube / sizer and some good bullet lubes ...one stroke of handle = sized , lubed and check seated boolit ready to shoot , use a good lube (like a Lithium-Beeswax) and I've never experienced a leaded barrel .
Coated boolits hadn't been invented back then but might be another optium... I like my 450 sizer lubricator so will stick with it .... You know ... if it ain't broke I'm not going to try and fix it !

[HumptyDumpty]

Hmm, I've not cast the chambers, nor can I say for certain what the harness of my lead is. The only thing I have to compare it to, is pure lead (I have some for a couple of muzzle-loaders), and it is significantly harder. I did initially develop this load utilizing plated bullets, but I found that cast shoot every bit as accurately, with the exact same charge. That being said, I haven't tried the cast projectiles with any lower charges; maybe I would still get good accuracy. I would be interested in trying some .453 projectiles, but the market seems to be mostly filled with .452, at least in this bullet weight. I am trying to keep things as similar to standard ball as I can.

[Burnt Fingers]

Are you using Lee tumble lube bullets?

If so they could well be too small.

I use Hi-Tek on all my pistol boolits. I run 50/50 wheelweights/pure. It works just fine in everything but my 327 Federal Mag.

Get a different mold, get some Hi-Tek, and get a sizing system. I'm 99.9% sure your leading problems will go away.

Also go into your profile and fill in your location. That way it's easier for someone local to help ya out.

[mdi]

Lot of good answers, but I would start from scratch; slug the barrel and measure the bullet diameter, with micrometers. I've been casting bullets for my 45 ACPs since 1990 and the first and most important step is to get the bullet to correctly fit the gun. BHN is OK to know, but I have used alloys of 50-50 WW and pure, 16-1 alloy, up to Lyman #2 for my 45 ACP bullets (and tried some BHN 18 in my 9mms). At my velocities (classic Bullseye charge under a 225 or 230 gr RN) and I get no leading. I also have used alox and 45-45-10, dip lubing on my Lee TL bullets and my various traditionally lubed 185 gr-230 gr cast, with no leading to speak, when the bullets correctly fit the gun...

[HumptyDumpty]

Are you using Lee tumble lube bullets?

If so they could well be too small.
.
Yes, I am. Do all Lee Tumble-Lube bullets tend to run small? I only shot 25 commercially produced bullets (can't recall the maker, but .452, standard lube, 230 grain), but my bore was squeaky-clean afterwards. With my current rounds, leading is noticeable within a handful of shots. Accuracy is still indistinguishable from plated or jacketed projectiles, until I get past a hundred rounds or so. Then it deteriorates. It is also worth noting (though it did slip my mind initially)that I use this same lead in my .308, and this issue has not manifested itself there. From everything you guys are saying, I am seriously beginning to suspect the projectile size. All my projectiles are currently loaded up; I'll cast a handful tonight, and measure them. If they are undersized, perhaps a phone call to Lee is in order.

[tazman]

I also use range scrap for my handguns. I water quench mine directly from the mold.
If your boolits are undersize, this isn't going to help you. I have the 230 grain round nose, tumble lube mold from Lee and have no issues with leading.
Mine measure about .453 before sizing. I lube one time then run them through a Lee push through sizer. They really don't need much lube if fitted to the barrel properly.
Other boolits, that have standard lube grooves, get run through my lubrisizer. You can still tumble lube them, if you wish, and they will work fine.
Most of my loads are running around 800fps.

The reason I size that boolit down to .452 from .453 is that a couple of my pistols have tight, match chambers and would not feed the larger diameter properly.

[gwpercle]

I've had the same results as you with 45 acp Lee tumble lube designs , it seems a lot of moul;ds do run small ... small boolits will lead up every time . The shallow rifling in 1911 barrels doesn't play well with the tumble lube design , throw in a soft alloy and small diameter...things just go all wrong in a hurry and there is no easy way out . I gave up on the TL 45 acp mould , had a garage sale , put a $1.00 price tag on it and felt bad about taking the fellow's money for it ...I did warn him though !
My advice , conventional bullet design ( like Lee .452-230-TC ) Size your boolits .452 , soft lead - COWW 50/50 for a harder alloy and any good lubricant ... even a tumble in LLA would probably be fine .
Warning ... Lee mould .452-228-1R is another that gave me problems ...the 1R nose profile isn't right ... that's another mould I sold for $1.00 and was glad to see it go .

Let me recommend Lee mould # .452-200-SWC ...this design is a Blue Ribbon winner , after trying this one I've seldom cast any other design . Get a two cavity and try it ...most fall in love with it .

Gary

[onelight]

If your bullets are from range scrap unless there were a lot of cast in the scrap there is a good chance they are to soft , but even soft bullets you can often find a load for that will work with little to no leading like the Speer and Hornady lead bullets if I get much over 700 to 750 FPS in most guns they lead but kept in that low velocity range they shoot well in most guns. If your bullets are .451 to .452 I think you can find a load that will work unless your barrel groove diameter is over size or it has a really rough bore finish hang in there you will find combination that will work.:grin:

[mdi]

Not all molds cast the same size as advertised. Differences in size, as cast, range from alloy used, temperature of alloy, temperature of mold and casting method. I believe the Lyman manuals have charts explaining this, and a .002" diameter difference is not rare...

Check the "Mold..." sub forum for "Leementing" and mold lapping...

[gnostic]

Make sure you're not resizing in the bullet seating process. Pulling a loaded bullet will tell the story...

[turtlezx]

shoot as cast if your sizing boolits

[Jniedbalski]

I would also shoot as cast also no sizing. Also I would pull a loaded round to see if it’s sizing down. Then try a harder alloy.

[HumptyDumpty]

264860
Because someone asked, and I can't seem to get an image into my PMs.

[C.F.Plinker]

Since you have pure lead available cast a couple of boolits with it. Mark all of the sides with a marks a lot and slug your barrel with the marked up boolit. The slugging should move metal around all of the perimeter. This will eliminate all of the marking with the marks a lot. If any of the high points on the boolit still have the marks a lot on them then they are smaller than the barrel groove diameter. And you have found the problem.

Are you sizing the boolits or just applying the liquid alox to the as cast boolit?

[C.F.Plinker]

FWIW the range scrap I use has a BHN of 8 or so. If I water drop the boolits the hardness increases to about 12. You might try water dropping them and see if this increases the hardness enough to eliminate the leading. This assumes that the boolits are at least groove diameter. If they are smaller you might try a softer alloy to see if they will obturate up enough to completely fill the bore.

[HumptyDumpty]

Since you have pure lead available cast a couple of boolits with it. Mark all of the sides with a marks a lot and slug your barrel with the marked up boolit. The slugging should move metal around all of the perimeter. This will eliminate all of the marking with the marks a lot. If any of the high points on the boolit still have the marks a lot on them then they are smaller than the barrel groove diameter. And you have found the problem.

Are you sizing the boolits or just applying the liquid alox to the as cast boolit?
I have not been sizing them. I've just got my pot to temperature, and am going to cast a few rounds, purely to derive measurements. Just to try and minimize variables, I'll let them cool overnight, as I normally do, before measuring. I'll try some pure lead as well.

[Burnt Fingers]

Are you using a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die?

[tazman]

264860
Because someone asked, and I can't seem to get an image into my PMs.

That one would certainly be undersize for a 45ACP.
Are you sure you posted the correct picture?

[Dusty Bannister]

Yes, it was in reply to a side conversation. Not specific to this thread.

[fcvan]

To the original ***:When I first started loading 45 ACP in 1987, I was using range scrap from work. AT that time, all of our practice rounds were swaged hollow base wad-cutters in 38 SP. Very soft stuff. I used Javalina lube and shot as-cast as I did not have a lube-sizer. When I did get a sizer (Lyman 450) I continued to use Javalina and sized to .452 diameter. Mold was a Lee 452-228-2R, powder has been almost exclusively Unique, with the rare use of BullsEye.

Many molds later, I still return to the 228 2R even though the Lee 452-200 SWC worked fine. 2 other molds are sort of odd-balls as the were actually the Lee 450-200-1R and a hollow point version intended for use in an 1858 Remington Copy. Fortunately, they actually cast fat and work well in the Springfield 1911. Because the boolit is tapered for use as a conicle I was surprised that during sizing it came out .452 diameter. Again, these were also being lubed with Javalina. I also bought a set of dies to make plain base gas checks from soda can material. These shot very well.

Flash forward, I started ASBB PC some years back and push through sizing dies. The Lyman 450 was cleaned up and returned to it's factory box after 30+ years of service. Powder coating leaves the bore shiny clean. I have shot several 45 caliber boolits from a single shot 45 Colt at roughly 1750 fps, as well as .223 at over 2450 fps without a gas check, boolit was not designed for gas checks.

The only time I had a hint of leading was many years ago. The local shop ran out of Javalina lube so I tried another name brand. Horrible epic failure. I did buy some White Label Carnuba Red from Lars45, a member here. Good stuff, very hard, required a heater be mounted under the sizer. I suppose I have a lifetime supply as I haven't used the Lyman 450 since I boiled it clean and prepped it for rust free storage. PC pretty much stopped use of lube for me, fast, easy, and no stored boolits ever oxidize on me.

I am sure you will find out what is causing your leading, whether it is poor fit, or dies sizing your boolits during loading. As mentioned by another post here, your dies might need adjusting. For me, I followed the directions with my dies, the directions from my Dad 45 years ago, and repeated by many members here. I size, and then bell or flare the case mouth just enough for the base of the boolit to fit in the case mouth. During seating, just enough crimp to remove the flare, no more. Plunk check in the chamber to make sure they will chamber.

The 45 ACP has been one of the easiest to load for and shoot wonderfully, right up there with any straight walled case. I didn't start loading bottle neck cases for many years and by then I had learned from Dad and many others here, that bottle neck cases aren't that much more difficult. G luck, I look forward to reading of your future success.

[HumptyDumpty]

Are you using a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die?

Yes I am.

[megasupermagnum]

So you loaded commercial cast .452" bullets with all your same dies with no issues at all? Then the problem is either the bullet or the lube.

The very first step is to measure your bullets. If they are only casting .450", well there is your problem. The next is to pull 3-4 loaded rounds, and measure those bullets. If they are being squeezed down, there is the problem.

There is likely not a problem with your lube. Alox works just fine on 45 acp. I've shot 20:1 alloy bullets with it, with no issues. 2 coats should do, for magnum rounds I sometimes do 3. I coat, size, coat, and optional coat. The key is very thin coats. You shouldn't be able to see the Alox unless you compare a bare bullet next to it, it should be just the slightest golden tint. If your bullets are brown, tacky, or anything like that, you are using too much. I do maybe a pea size drop for 100 bullets.

[HumptyDumpty]

Well, I went ahead and took the measurements now, and may have found the problem. Orienting the caliper at 11/5 and 1/7 o'clock, I get .451, while 9/3 o'clock mics at .452. That is at roughly the mid-point of the lube grooves. I was able to hold the calipers in the same exact position each time, by laying them on my workbench, with the bullet sitting upright. Now, if I held both in my hand, and measured the bullets' base, I got a tad over more than .452". But it is a very small area. Not enough, I am guessing. The pure lead measured WAY too small, clearly not filling the mould fully. I didn't melt very much of it, and I probably wasn't at the ideal temperature.

[tazman]

A trick that is sometimes used to make a mold cast larger is to beagle the mold. I am not going to spell it out for you now since there are several threads already made up about it that tell it better than I ever could. Check this link for more info.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/google.php?cx=partner-pub-6216953551359885%3A1942134700&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=beagling+a+mold&sa.x=0&sa.y=0&siteurl=castboolits.gunloads.com%2F&ref=&ss=4868j2212722j15

[torpedoman]

i powder coat , pretty simple and easy to do yardsale toaster ovens work fine

[Rich/WIS]

I use range scrap in my 1911 with the LEE 200 gr SWC conventional lube groove that I milled down to remove the bevel base that now drops at 190 gr +/-. Sized with a Lyman 450 and White Label XLOX 2500 using a sizer marked as .451 that must have been a quiting time on Friday die as bullets mic out at .4517. Leading has not been an issue, although when new I did get a tiny spot of lead about 2"in front of the chamber, but it stopped after a few hundred rounds. I did check BHN and these were in the 10-11 range. NOTE: my loads are very light, 3.1 grs Bullseye and the recoil spring replaced with a 10# spring and a 19# hammer spring. Have arthritis bad in my wrist and hand and needed minimum recoil.

[Burnt Fingers]

Yes I am.

Get rid of it.

[mdi]

Yes I am.

I would hazard to guess this is the problem, or at least a big contributor...

[tazman]

I would hazard to guess this is the problem, or at least a big contributor...


Get rid of it.

People..... The OP has already posted that he checked his boolits as dropped from the mold and they were already undersize. I really doubt his FCD is making the issue worse regardless of what your experience might have been.

[megasupermagnum]

And the fact that he already loaded a commercial cast bullet with the carbide crimp die, with zero leading at all. The problem is not the FCD.

[DougGuy]

The Lee FCD is made to smooth out case walls where there is a .451" boolit or bullet used in the load. It won't downsize a .451" but anything bigger it will likely squeeze down to .451" ~ .4515" in the case. The carbide sizing rings are not all created equal either. Some are tighter than others.

I would suggest the OP is using boolits too small in diameter to seal in the bore.

[mdi]

I am getting significant leading in both of my 1911's, when using 230 gr, .452, cast boolits. Now, I ordered a few commercially-produced rounds, with traditional lube grooves before committing to a mould, and had no issues. However, since I don't have a lubrisizer, I decided to go with a projectile optimized for use with Liquid Alox, of which I am using two coats. The lead is range-scrap, and the rounds are travelling at roughly 800 fps, using a 4.6 grain charge of 700x. Thoughts?

I get .451, while 9/3 o'clock mics at .452.

I got a tad over more than .452".
I can only go by what the OP says; and .452" is not undersize for any 45 ACP I cast for...

[tazman]

I can only go by what the OP says; and .452" is not undersize for any 45 ACP I cast for...

Read his post number 26 in which he discusses his mold dropping boolits somewhat smaller than .452.

[fredj338]

You don't need a harder bullet at that pressure/vel, you need one that fits the bore. Many report leading with the TL design, one reason I stayed away. Undersized bullets almost always lead. You could very well be sizing the bullet down during seating & crimping. LFCD, ditch that. load a dummy round, pull the bullet & measure it. Ideally you want it to be 0.452" minimum. IF the bullet is already under 0.452", that is likely the issue.
I don't bother slugging bores, blah, blah, I have too many diff guns to deal with. So in 45acp, 0.452" bullet cast from range scrap & conventional lubes have always worked fine for me. Working better still with PC.

[megasupermagnum]

Wow, talk about an irrational hate for a tool. The Lee carbide crimp die is not his problem! He says it over and over again "I only shot 25 commercially produced bullets (can't recall the maker, but .452, standard lube, 230 grain), but my bore was squeaky-clean afterwards". He loaded bullets sized to .452", using the FCD, and had zero problems. He found his problem, his bullets are undersized, and it sounds like they are not fully filled out.

[yeahbub]

That one would certainly be undersize for a 45ACP. . . HAR! Just paper-patch it up some. Or heavy powder-coat.

Humpty, I don't think alloy hardness is the problem here. One of my favorite alloys for .45 acp was a large lot of range scrap which had a BHN of 8. It served well, even for velocities which showed signs of insipent expansion with a RNFP in water jugs when maxed out. Somehow, leading = too soft, no leading = plenty hard seems to be a conclusion commonly drawn. Hardness won't fix an undersize boolit. Fit comes first, then hardness appropriate to pressure, lube appropriate to the pressure/velocity. Once fit is correct, the alowable variation in hardness, lube and velocity widens considerably without ill effect. I'd hazard a guess your casting is undersize/out of round and the load may not be hot enough for obturation to correct the problem. In my experience, the Lee microband design provides a desirable lube groove-to-driving band ratio of nearly 1:1, and the Lee .45 200gr SWC microband performs very well with no leading when I drive it with upper limit book loads. I once experimented with plain lead .490 RB's pushed through a .452 Lee sizer and loaded over some Universal, a card wad and lube cookie. Out of a 1911, they were accurate with no leading, in spite of how soft they were. They even fed reliably, albeit with a clunkety-clunk feel to the action, once I got the OAL worked out (short nose).

Others have mentioned the possibility that your casting, being fairly soft, might be sized down somewhat by the brass case. This is a detail it would pay to check on. Might need a slightly larger expander plug.

[MT Chambers]

Pure lead bullets sized to .452" in my STAR sizer using Red Carnauba from Lars with no leading at all.

[mdi]

Well, I went ahead and took the measurements now, and may have found the problem. Orienting the caliper at 11/5 and 1/7 o'clock, I get .451, while 9/3 o'clock mics at .452. That is at roughly the mid-point of the lube grooves. I was able to hold the calipers in the same exact position each time, by laying them on my workbench, with the bullet sitting upright. Now, if I held both in my hand, and measured the bullets' base, I got a tad over more than .452". But it is a very small area. Not enough, I am guessing. The pure lead measured WAY too small,Well, I went ahead and took the measurements now, and may have found the problem. Orienting the caliper at 11/5 and 1/7 o'clock, I get .451, while 9/3 o'clock mics at .452. That is at roughly the mid-point of the lube grooves. I was able to hold the calipers in the same exact position each time, by laying them on my workbench, with the bullet sitting upright. Now, if I held both in my hand, and measured the bullets' base, I got a tad over more than .452". But it is a very small area. Not enough, I am guessing. The pure lead measured WAY too small, clearly not filling the mould fully. I didn't melt very much of it, and I probably wasn't at the ideal temperature. I didn't melt very much of it, and I probably wasn't at the ideal temperature. Hmmm. I wonder why the OP says .451", .452", and poor fill out "not filling" and some read his mold is dropping small?

Actually this whole "discussion" is just a WAG, because only one person, a new caster, is reporting a problem and I, along with everyone else posting here, do not watch the casting process, the method of measurements, not tested the alloys used, don't have any bullets in hand, and do not watch the reloading process...

[Hanzy4200]

I've never encountered leading with .45 acp. As long as you are sizing your bullets, I wouldn't se size as a issue. I've never heard of .45 barrels varying significantly. Add a bit more antimony. If possible lose the tumble lube. Lubsisizers sell relatively cheap used.

[kmw1954]

Actually this whole "discussion" is just a WAG, because only one person, a new caster, is reporting a problem and I, along with everyone else posting here, do not watch the casting process, the method of measurements, not tested the alloys used, don't have any bullets in hand, and do not watch the reloading process...

mdi on this I have to concur. All I've seen is insufficient and inconclusive information and a whole lot of jumbles stories and impressions.

I think the OP needs to start over from the beginning and work this thorough one step, one change at a time. Thousands of shooters shoot this bullet and shoot it with this same lube and most likely loading it the exact same way every day. Why are they not experiencing this exact same problem? Because this tell me that the problem is solely inherent on either the bullet fit, the gun barrel or the alloy being used.

At this time no one knows what the exact composition of this alloy is or even how hard or soft it is. Just speculations. I have used the 45/45/10 tumble lube on 4 different .452 45acp bullets from both Lee and Lyman molds and have sized them with a Lee .452" pass thru die and have not experienced any leading while using alloy of straight Clip on WW, 50/50 COWW and SOWW and two different batches of straight range scrap of unknown makeup and pencil tested hardness of around 9. Again not a single instance of barrel fouling and those are with low velocity start loads up to above mid-range using AA#5.

I firmly believe he has been directed as to what to look for and check and now just needs a complete reset. Start over.

[DonHowe]

In my experience the .45 ACP is just not that finicky to load for to not have leading. My bullets have been H&G 68s or 452460s cast of alloy from range scrap to COWW, plus a lot of swayed Zero SWCs back in the day. Lubes have varied from NRA 50/50 to LBT Blue to Darr lube (paraffin, vaseline plus a little STP). Sizing diameters have been .4515" and .452". Leading just has not been an issue.
This has all been through older Colt barrels which I consider adequate or better but not match grade.
I know lots of guys are into powder coating and if you like it, have at it, but it simply should not be necessary in .45 ACP to avoid leading the barrel.

[HumptyDumpty]

I have done my best to post exactly what I am doing, and the results I am getting. Never once did I suggest that my method or alloy could not be at fault. Then again, it is entirely possible, and nowhere near unheard of, for a Lee mould to be ever-so-slightly out of spec At this point, I am going through the process of trying several of the suggested fixes, and will need to do more testing before I can draw any conclusions. A wealth of information has been presented, and I am grateful for it all.

[kmw1954]

HD, "All I've seen is insufficient and inconclusive information and a whole lot of jumbles stories and impressions." quoted by me which may have lead to a misunderstanding, which was not directed towards you. Though I too went back and re-read your original post and again think I have a clear understanding of your problem.

At this point I still believe the problem lies with the bullet fit in the barrel. I have used a good deal of differing range scrap alloys and have pushed them pretty fast w/o incidence. So I really doubt that the alloy is the culprit. I also exclusively use 45/45/10 tumble lube and also have not seen an issue. That leaves the bullet itself. Again bullet size and fit into that barrel. Yes it also could be that the Lee Tumble Lube bullet design you are using is not a good match for your gun. The only sure way to tell is to try a different design and then a larger diameter all using the same alloy and lube.

Keep at it and the answer will come. Keep us up to date. If you like I can send you some Lyman 225gr RN sized to .452" to try.

[HumptyDumpty]

Update:
The addition of linotype to my alloy (1lb to 10 lbs of range scrap). Resulted in slightly larger dimensions, and a harder projectile. Leading was significantly reduced, and confined to the first inch or so of my barrel. I did powder-coat a few as well, and while I need more practice, it did also do the job. Either powder coating, or a different bullet (along with a lubrisizer) might be what I wind up settling on.

[megasupermagnum]

leading for a short section, then clean is a textbook example of an undersized bullet. Just because some of the bullet measures .452" doesn't mean the entire thing does. Powdercoating increases diameter, which sounds like it did the trick for you. Tumble lube will work just fine for you if you get the bullet bigger. It is very easy to beagle a mold, which is nothing more than putting a few strips of thin aluminum tape on the mold faces to spread them slightly. This usually gains you .001" to .002".