Frustrated with online BP resources

[windjammer47]

I own a couple traditional BP smokepoles. Both are rifled caplocks in .45; one rifle and one pistol. I've previously shot them with 777 but like many out there I got dodgey ignition. I cannot own BP due to Military on-base regulations for explosives. I purchased both Blacknz and Pyrodex P but I cannot find any loads out there with them. Is there a difinitive load guide to these guns? I've found lots on .50s but nothing out there on the older .45s that used to be so popular. I use patched round ball as well as lubed Lee R.E.A.L. bullets which make things more complicated. Any advice on publications that I can draw from?

[mooman76]

777 is not really made for sidelocks but had had inlines in mind. Some sidelocks will shoot it ok, but some won't. A couple things you can do to improve it's firing capability is change out the nipple to one of those hot shot nipples or a similar other brand and they do make magnum #11 caps. Blackmz is no longer being made but that and Pyrodex were made to be equivalent to BP by grain Volume. 777 is about 20% more powerful than BP and subs so if you shot 777 you can increase your load by that amount. The rifle should be good up to 80 or 90 grains and the pistol about 30 grains. Any more would just be wasting powder. BP is very forgiving compared to center fire guns so if you go over max some, it's not a big deal. You will need to work your loads up to find what shoots best. I usually start equivalent to the caliber for rifles and half that for pistol so 45gr and 20 for the two. Then work up 5 gr. until I find what shoots best. Same with the REALs.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Can you store your powder off base? You do not have where you live listed , maybe someone here could store it for you or get you some when you want to shoot .

[arcticap]

I use patched round ball as well as lubed Lee R.E.A.L. bullets which make things more complicated. Any advice on publications that I can draw from?

Here's the complete TC sidelock manual that contains .45 rifle loading data for round balls and conicals such as the Maxi-ball and Maxi-hunter of different weights which are similar enough to the REAL.
The data is located between pages 72 to 80 or so. --->>> https://www.scribd.com/document/321169256/Shooting-TC-Side-Lock-Black-Powder-Guns

How much powder to load really depends on what you're shooting at since a hunting load will not be the same as a target load, and also the distance to the target.
I recall a 25-50 yard PRB target load of 37 - 40 grains of Pyrodex P from a .45 rifle with a medium length barrel.
It was only to bust mini clay birds, but it was the most accurate for my purposes.
For longer distances such as 100 yards the charge would be increased to 70 grains or so.
Every rifle is different and there's only trial & error.
I've probably even loaded less powder for shooting a .45 pistol with PRB's at 25 yards, perhaps as low as 30 grains.
And then a load can be worked up in 5 - 10 grain increments until you're happy with the performance, depending on whether loading conicals or PRB's.

Just remember that the more powder loaded, the more fouling residue there will be.
BlackMZ has a chunkier granulation so an extra 5 - 10 grains can be loaded compared to Pyrodex P.

If you have any ignition difficulties just load 5-10 grains of Pyrodex P into the barrel first, before adding the BlackMZ.
The finer grains should flow into the flash channel easier than if loading BlackMZ alone.

I didn't notice any loading data specifically for pistols in the TC manual even though TC made the .45 Patriot pistol.
On page 48 of the Traditions sidelock manual, there are minimum and maximum .45 pistol loads which they say the maximum is 35 grains with a PRB which is extremely low. --->>> https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/data/product_owner_manuals/CURRENT%20-%20FIT%207%20Revised%20Final%20FINAL_1477335832.pd f

Some manuals are written by lawyers with liability in mind.
But they may be concerned with people double charging their pistols by mistake if they recommended a 70 grain maximum.
I suppose that some target pistol shooters may like extremely light loads for competition.

[windjammer47]

Can you store your powder off base? You do not have where you live listed , maybe someone here could store it for you or get you some when you want to shoot .

I could but it would be a pain to drive off base to pick it up, to only head back on base to go to the range, and....again to head off base to drop it off...LOL to only head back on base to go home...2+ hours of driving. This is why I'm looking for something that allows me to enjoy my BP with compromise. :P

[Gray Fox]

The Pyrodex pamphlet I have from the '90s shows for a .45 muzzleloader with a round ball a thrown charge of 70 grains of Pyrodex P from a BP powder measure as the recommended load. No barrel length is shown and it shows a muzzle velocity of 1785 fps. For a 220 grain Maxi-Ball it shows 90 grains of P with a velocity of 1625 fps. I hope this helps, GF.

[windjammer47]

Here's the complete TC sidelock manual that contains .45 loading data for round balls and conicals such as the Maxi-ball and Maxi-hunter of different weights which are similar enough to the REAL.
The data is located between pages 72 to 80 or so. --->>> https://www.scribd.com/document/321169256/Shooting-TC-Side-Lock-Black-Powder-Guns

How much powder to load really depends on what you're shooting at since a hunting load will not be the same as a target load, and also the distance to the target.
I recall a 25-50 yard PRB target load of 37 - 40 grains of Pyrodex P from a .45 rifle with a medium length barrel.
It was only to bust mini clay birds, but it was the most accurate for my purposes.
For longer distances such as 100 yards the charge would be increased to 70 grains or so.
Every rifle is different and there's only trial & error.
I've probably even loaded less powder for shooting a .45 pistol with PRB's at 25 yards, perhaps as low as 30 grains.
And then work up the load in 5 - 10 grain increments until you're happy with the performance, depending on if loading conicals or PRB's.

Just remember that the more powder loaded, the more fouling residue there will be.
BlackMZ has a chunkier granulation so and extra 5 - 10 grains can be loaded compared to Pyrodex P.

If you have any ignition difficulties just load 5-10 grains of Pyrodex P into the barrel first, before adding the BlackMZ.
The finer grains should flow into the flash channel easier than if loading BlackMZ alone.

I didn't notice any loading data specifically for pistols in the TC manual even though TC made the .45 Patriot pistol.
On page 48 of the Traditions sidelock manual, there are .45 pistol loads which they say the maximum is 35 grains with a PRB which is ridiculously low. --->>> https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/data/product_owner_manuals/CURRENT%20-%20FIT%207%20Revised%20Final%20FINAL_1477335832.pd f

Some manuals are written by lawyers with liability in mind.
But they may be concerned with people double charging their pistols by mistake.

So it looks like 30gr for the pistol with a patched roundball, 60gr for the rifle patched roundball for the rifle in the Pyrodex P according to the load data TC manual. I'll dial up the loads on the rifle from there depending on accuracy. I know the pyrodex P is a 1:1 volumetric substitution. I'm really hoping for more reliable ignition. I get a misfire about 1 of 4 rounds with the 777. I have switch out the nipples to a more open design and use "hot" caps. I was hoping I was just doing something wrong. Thanks for the info.

[Edward]

So it looks like 30gr for the pistol with a patched roundball, 60gr for the rifle patched roundball for the rifle in the Pyrodex P according to the load data TC manual. I'll dial up the loads on the rifle from there depending on accuracy. I know the pyrodex P is a 1:1 volumetric substitution. I'm really hoping for more reliable ignition. I get a misfire about 1 of 4 rounds with the 777. I have switch out the nipples to a more open design and use "hot" caps. I was hoping I was just doing something wrong. Thanks for the info.Nothing wrong but look into Magspark 209 conversion as I use them in 7-8 muzzle loaders /side locks A closed system allowing you to replace your #11 percussion cap/nipple setup
with a 209 shotgun primer ,benefits include a cap that eliminates the erosion of nipples being a closed system(no back pressure) /water tight/ cheaper as everyone sells shotgun primers/and fires every time (specified with Blackhorn 209 )/Ed

[megasupermagnum]

Is the rule a volume thing? I don't want you to break any rules, but I know when flying, a common way to transport black powder is in empty shotgun shells. For some reason 1/2 pound of powder in shotgun shells (dead primer of course) is a OK, but 1/2 pound in the original can is a no go.

The Magspark uses 209 primers, and will fire 777 or Pyrodex. The only problem is it is no fun to remove the primer. But it's better than a misfire.

[Gtek]

I did not catch manufacturer of your boomers and acquired as used or new to you. Do it long enough and one will see and deal with all kinds of crazy this and thats over the years. Things I would confirm before moving on, CVA, TC, etc. is the real condition and cleanliness of that channel between nipple and bore. Are you wiping between shots? Sometimes pushing "stuff" down into that all important path. Are you noticing a crud ring just before seat?

[Edward]

Is the rule a volume thing? I don't want you to break any rules, but I know when flying, a common way to transport black powder is in empty shotgun shells. For some reason 1/2 pound of powder in shotgun shells (dead primer of course) is a OK, but 1/2 pound in the original can is a no go.

The Magspark uses 209 primers, and will fire 777 or Pyrodex. The only problem is it is no fun to remove the primer. But it's better than a misfire.
The primer removal is easy ,spit in the cap and primer goes in your mouth .I shoot long for 8-9 hrs every Friday @ our private 700 yd range with my 45 cal Renegade 65-70 shots and never have a problem and never have a miss fire do to ignition /Ed

[John Boy]

American Pioneer Powder is a substitute powder like Pyrodex. Here’s the website with purchase sources and loading data for muzzleloader ... http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/

[charlie b]

The BP subs are used with the same volume measure as you do BP itself. If your volume measure is set for 80gn of black powder, then just use the same setting with Pyrodex, Shockey's, etc.

It is when you weigh the powder charges on a scale that differences show up.

[megasupermagnum]

The primer removal is easy ,spit in the cap and primer goes in your mouth .I shoot long for 8-9 hrs every Friday @ our private 700 yd range with my 45 cal Renegade 65-70 shots and never have a problem and never have a miss fire do to ignition /Ed

More power to you. I don't think I got 20 shots before I lost the cap. When I found it, I painted it orange. I did try a cotton swab to clean it, but again, tedious. It will never be as easy as a percussion or musket cap, but some do use the Magsparks.

[triggerhappy243]

I could but it would be a pain to drive off base to pick it up, to only head back on base to go to the range, and....again to head off base to drop it off...LOL to only head back on base to go home...2+ hours of driving. This is why I'm looking for something that allows me to enjoy my BP with compromise. :P

windjammer47, have you thought about joining a black powder club off base, befriend a few guys, and offer to pay them for the powder that you use?

[mooman76]

Years ago I had to keep my guns in an armory. It was such a pain in the a** I took them to a friends house. Not the best but.... I know how you feel. What area you in?

[indian joe]

More power to you. I don't think I got 20 shots before I lost the cap. When I found it, I painted it orange. I did try a cotton swab to clean it, but again, tedious. It will never be as easy as a percussion or musket cap, but some do use the Magsparks.

Is it possible to use shotgun primers in an open system? (I inherited 15000 209's and I dont shoot shotgun hardly at all --tryin to figure out how to use them) ......I'm thinking to use like the base part of the magspark with a firing pin installed on the face of the hammer - so it work just like a normal percussion cap .......or is there too much juice in a 209 primer? ...............just wondered if anybody tried that and if so did they survive ?

[megasupermagnum]

Is it possible to use shotgun primers in an open system? (I inherited 15000 209's and I dont shoot shotgun hardly at all --tryin to figure out how to use them) ......I'm thinking to use like the base part of the magspark with a firing pin installed on the face of the hammer - so it work just like a normal percussion cap .......or is there too much juice in a 209 primer? ...............just wondered if anybody tried that and if so did they survive ?

Not on a sidelock that I know of. Most inline muzzleloaders today use what is known as a "bare" primer system, but this has the primer sandwiched between the breech plug and a bolt face or similar. The only true open system for a 209 primer I know of, is the plunger system that Knight uses on many of their rifles. In this case the primer is held on a nipple with a plastic sleeve, and the plunger ignites the primer.

It would be an interesting thing for a side lock. You would need two things for an open 209 system though. #1 you would need a replacement hammer that encases the rear of the primer during firing. #2, you would need a system that could hold a 209 primer in securely so that it will not fall out during carry, or gentle falls, yet is easy to extract the primer.

The Mag spark system is ok, but the two big problems are that the bottom cup comes almost all the way up to the rim of the 209 primer. This is a lot of surface area to cause sticking, and worse, it makes it very difficult to grab the primer to pull it out. The other problem is the cap that secures the primer and houses the firing pin. This tiny cap can easily be lost, rendering your rifle nothing but a walking stick. For the Mag spark to be more viable, they need to make an ejection system for one. Just a simple wire deal that you pull to eject the primer would work fine. The cap issue is a tougher one. It needs to be secured somehow.

[arcticap]

Is it possible to use shotgun primers in an open system?.....or is there too much juice in a 209 primer?

One line of thinking was that the 209 primer would cause the projectile to move off the powder before the powder itself could fully ignite, affecting accuracy.

How much it affects accuracy is not dramatic in an inline.
The Precision Rifle Bullet Co. did extensive testing and show a target comparing their Vari-flame breech plug adapter that uses smaller CCI 400 small rifle primers in the same gun with a breech plug that also uses 209 primers, and the 209 group measured 1.359" while the Vari-flame group measured .676".
That test was done using 777 powder. --->>> See the photo https://www.prbullet.com/vf.htm

They claim similar results with their .25 acp breech plug and state for both:
"Personally, I believe these flyers were the result of the 209 actually lifting the sabot off the powder charge simultaneous with igniting the powder. The much milder Small Rifle primer of the 25 ACP case ignites the powder just as instantly but lacks the energy to move the sabot and bullet off the powder charge therefore eliminating the flyers." --->>> https://www.prbullet.com/prohntr.htm

Is it true? Well, CVA developed the almost $1000 Paramount long range .45 muzzle loader that uses the patented Vari-flame system with a large rifle primer.
CVA advertises that the gun shoots under 1 MOA at 300 yards. --->>> https://www.muzzle-loaders.com//cvatm-paramount-muzzleloader-rifle-45-caliber-pr3503n.html

[megasupermagnum]

One line of thinking was that the 209 primer would cause the projectile to move off the powder before the powder itself could fully ignite, affecting accuracy.

How much it affects accuracy is not dramatic in an inline.
The Precision Rifle Bullet Co. did extensive testing and show a target comparing their Vari-flame breech plug adapter that uses smaller CCI 400 small rifle primers in the same gun with a breech plug that also uses 209 primers, and the 209 group measured 1.359" while the Vari-flame group measured .676".
That test was done using 777 powder. --->>> See the photo https://www.prbullet.com/vf.htm

They claim similar results with their .25 acp breech plug and state for both:
"Personally, I believe these flyers were the result of the 209 actually lifting the sabot off the powder charge simultaneous with igniting the powder. The much milder Small Rifle primer of the 25 ACP case ignites the powder just as instantly but lacks the energy to move the sabot and bullet off the powder charge therefore eliminating the flyers." --->>> https://www.prbullet.com/prohntr.htm

Is it true? Well, CVA developed the almost $1000 Paramount long range .45 muzzle loader that uses the patented Vari-flame system with a large rifle primer.
CVA advertises that the gun shoots under 1 MOA at 300 yards. --->>> https://www.muzzle-loaders.com//cvatm-paramount-muzzleloader-rifle-45-caliber-pr3503n.html

Well, I wouldn't take anything CVA says as truth. They lost all my respect long, long ago. But they could be right about the 209 primer being less accurate. 209 primers and pellet powders are used because they are convenient (to buy and use), not because they are better.

[Edward]

Not on a sidelock that I know of. Most inline muzzleloaders today use what is known as a "bare" primer system, but this has the primer sandwiched between the breech plug and a bolt face or similar. The only true open system for a 209 primer I know of, is the plunger system that Knight uses on many of their rifles. In this case the primer is held on a nipple with a plastic sleeve, and the plunger ignites the primer.

It would be an interesting thing for a side lock. You would need two things for an open 209 system though. #1 you would need a replacement hammer that encases the rear of the primer during firing. #2, you would need a system that could hold a 209 primer in securely so that it will not fall out during carry, or gentle falls, yet is easy to extract the primer.

The Mag spark system is ok, but the two big problems are that the bottom cup comes almost all the way up to the rim of the 209 primer. This is a lot of surface area to cause sticking, and worse, it makes it very difficult to grab the primer to pull it out. The other problem is the cap that secures the primer and houses the firing pin. This tiny cap can easily be lost, rendering your rifle nothing but a walking stick. For the Mag spark to be more viable, they need to make an ejection system for one. Just a simple wire deal that you pull to eject the primer would work fine. The cap issue is a tougher one. It needs to be secured somehow.

Just as explained earlier spit in the cap and primer goes in your mouth = no sticking and if your apt to drop /lose stuff do like me Bring an extra . The many attributes are real and listed in my previous post /ED

[indian joe]

Thanks boys I appreciate the feedback - its generated some ideas
gonna try this on a spare CVA sidelock
1) drill the hammer face and fit a protruding firing pin (that is easily reversible so no harm done there)
2) only intend doing this plinking and on the range so securing the primer is not an issue
3) replace the nipple with what looks like the bottom half of the mag spark (might need to make a new nipple drum to accomodate it but thats doable)
4) at the front of that mag spark like bottom bit I will cut a slot about 2mm - 2.5 mm wide and 2mm deep so we can get a finger nail or knife blade under the lip edge of the primer to eject it
Those 15000 209's I inherited are just sitting there waiting to be used while we pay 11cents per shot for percussion caps
This might not happen for some time but if it works I will post some pics
Whats the catch ??? .....if those primers have enough juice to blow em out of the holder - could be a safety issue - so will shoot a few off the test sled first.

[Edward]

I am pretty sure without the Magspark (acorn like top) other than using up 209 primers you will eliminate most all benefits of this type ignition system with the added excitement of not knowing when not if , pain is coming . Shooting off a sled is just delaying the result /sorry Ed

[toot]

I shoot TIPPLE 7, 777in my flintlock, yes flintlocks, and I prime with 4F, black and ignition is positive, instant. I have even used it in the pan for priming and it will ignite.

[indian joe]

I am pretty sure without the Magspark (acorn like top) other than using up 209 primers you will eliminate most all benefits of this type ignition system with the added excitement of not knowing when not if , pain is coming . Shooting off a sled is just delaying the result /sorry Ed

Ed
Would you mind elaborating on what is gonna cause the pain? This experiment has not happened yet out of caution not laziness.
If those shotgun primers have enough more juice in them to blow the hammer back and perforate my hatbrim when they become a projectile - then I need a better plan

To date I have decided that screwing that little lid on and off each shot was not really worth the trouble - just looking for a more effective way to use these things up is all.
If you can help ....please do

[Edward]

The cap by design prevents blowback and erosion of the nipple common with caps. I have never intentionally set out to bypass the containment of the primer . It would seem without containment the possibility of particles of metal not covered by my hammer could indeed ventilate your hat/eye . Look at a percussion cap and note the difference in size with a 209 primer , maybe you could modify the hammer to contain the 209 , I just use the Magspark as designed and have no worry's as to outcome . My opinion only,yours might differ but I go thru 60-70 rds a week long range and it"s not a bother but maybe I"m just used to the routine and the outcome .The firing pin in the cap s what fires it and without the cap how you make it fire is something I also don"t know but I don"t have all the answers , I just use the thing and it works for me/Thanks Ed

[Boogieman]

On my wife's TC Renegade I replaced the nipple with a musket cap nipple. Musket caps are hotter than #11 caps.