Expanding Hollow Points in BP Loads

[SPJ]

Has anyone here tried making expanding hollow point bullets loads using black powder? I would like to try my hand at it and according to the sources I have bellow I think it is possible. The link in "firearmsnews" explains that they used a load with a 158-grain swaged lead semi-wadcutter hollow-point, so called "FBI Load", with a velocity of 799 fps out of a 2" barrel that was able to expand to .521". The next two forum sources state that a BP load for a .38 special can attain velocities of 798 fps to 850 fps out of 5" to 6" barreled guns respectively. If that is the case then I imagine that I should reasonably be able to achieve similar expansion to that of the FBI +P loads mentioned in the "firearmsnews" article if I were to make a .38 special load using the same kind of swaged HP SWC and roughly 21 grs of BP in a gun with at least a 5" barrel. I would plan to use a longer one though. Am I wrong in reasoning this? Has anyone tried this before?

https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/top-short-barrel-38-spl-loads-for-the-street/77810
http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/477347-38-special-back-day.html
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132938

[Outpost75]

Getting 800+ fps with a 158-grain bullet in .38 Special using modern solid head cases and black powder I don't think is feasible, but .357 cases would hold the full traditional 21-grain black powder charge which was contained in the old balloon-head cases. The quality of modern black powder also varies greatly and while Swiss or KIK powder might break 800 fps, I have found velocity variations as great as 100 fps firing different lots of Goex with the same compressed volumetric charge.

Also, modern swaged lead SWC bullets do not hold sufficient lubricant of the proper type to prevent severe caking up of the black powder fouling. Revolvers produced during the black powder era generally had large barrel-cylinder gaps typically 0.008-0.010" to mitigate the effects of BP fouling binding the cylinder from rotating. But large cylinder gaps also result in greater gas loss and reduced velocity. In standard-pressure .38 Special loads assembled with fast-burning smokeless powders similar to Bullseye, TiteGroup, 231 or HP38 the Delta-V is about 10 fps for each 0.001" increase in barrel-cylinder gap exceeding Mean Assembly Tolerance (0.006"). I would expect the effect with black powder to be similar, however cylinder gaps tighter than about 0.005" are likely to cause cylinder binding with black powder unless the barrel face and front of the cylinder are wiped each time the revolver is reloaded.

If you want to assemble black powder loads which approximate the old FBI service load, I would use a bullet having sufficient lubricant capacity to avoid fouling issues, and use .357 brass to provide adequate powder capacity, loading Goex 3Fg to fill the case with 1/8" compression. A bullet similar to Accurate 36-155C cast of 1 to 30 tin-lead, and then hollow-pointed using a .15" diameter core pin with 15-degree draft angle should work fine with SPG lube.http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-155C-D.png

[SPJ]

Getting 800+ fps with a 158-grain bullet in .38 Special using modern solid head cases and black powder I don't think is feasible, but .357 cases would hold the full traditional 21-grain black powder charge which was contained in the old balloon-head cases. The quality of modern black powder also varies greatly and while Swiss or KIK powder might break 800 fps, I have found velocity variations as great as 100 fps firing different lots of Goex with the same compressed volumetric charge.

Also, modern swaged lead SWC bullets do not hold sufficient lubricant of the proper type to prevent severe caking up of the black powder fouling. Revolvers produced during the black powder era generally had large barrel-cylinder gaps typically 0.008-0.010" to mitigate the effects of BP fouling binding the cylinder from rotating. But large cylinder gaps also result in greater gas loss and reduced velocity. In standard-pressure .38 Special loads assembled with fast-burning smokeless powders similar to Bullseye, TiteGroup, 231 or HP38 the Delta-V is about 10 fps for each 0.001" increase in barrel-cylinder gap exceeding Mean Assembly Tolerance (0.006"). I would expect the effect with black powder to be similar, however cylinder gaps tighter than about 0.005" are likely to cause cylinder binding with black powder unless the barrel face and front of the cylinder are wiped each time the revolver is reloaded.

If you want to assemble black powder loads which approximate the old FBI service load, I would use a bullet having sufficient lubricant capacity to avoid fouling issues, and use .357 brass to provide adequate powder capacity, loading Goex 3Fg to fill the case with 1/8" compression. A bullet similar to Accurate 36-155C cast of 1 to 30 tin-lead, and then hollow-pointed using a .15" diameter core pin with 15-degree draft angle should work fine with SPG lube.http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-155C-D.png

Thank you, I wish I could find ballooned head cases. I have heard you can fit more into Starline 38 spcl brass, but I'm not sure how true that may be. To ask a few questions, is there a reason I should use a tin- lead alloy instead of pure lead? Do you think this type of swaged bullet could hold enough lube http://aplussurvival.com/speer-bullets-38-caliber-358-diameter-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-box-of-500/ ? Also, how do you think coating a bullet for BP loads would help things? I am also thinking of trying to coat bullets with Moly or graphite.

[Nobade]

I suggest you spend time loading and shooting black powder ammunition in order to become accustomed to how it performs rather than asking questions like this. No, I'm not trying to be a jerk. Rather once you are familiar with how black powder works you will easily know how to proceed to where you want to be.

[Outpost75]

Nobade is correct, but to clarify your other questions.

Pure lead is more difficult to get well-filled out, defect free castings because it requires a higher melt temperature which increases oxidation and which does not flow as well to fill out sharp corners and detailed features. In pure lead the as-cast diameter produced will also be smaller and the bullet weight greater. Modern molds do not cast bullets to correct dimensions with pure lead. Also, most supposedly "pure" soft lead obtained these days, really is not and will have trace amounts of other elements which may impair casting quality.

Only a very little tin is needed to be added to enhance casting quality. 1% or 2% tin is adequate. 1 to 50 was a common mix in black powder days which gave good fill-out without appreciably increasing hardness. If tin is added to the alloy, keep melt temperature below 750 degs. F to avoid losing the tin through oxidation.

The swaged Speer bullets have shallow knurling which will not hold enough SPG to be suitable for black powder. The existing lubricant on Speer bullets is barely adequate for light smokeless loads.

Power coating is not helpful with BP because the function of a black powder lube is not boundary layer lubrication, but "wetting" of the carbonaetious fouling to keep it soft, so that it forms an ablative, steady-state condition which is swept out the bore with successive shots.

I would caution you that most of the information posted on the prepping and survival forums regarding use of black powder during hard times is for entertainment fantasy only, written by Walter Mitty wannabes who do their shooting with a keyboard having no real-world experience with it.

[Outpost75]

I agree with NoBade. I would caution you that most of what you read in the various prepping and survival forums regarding loading black powder for TEOTWAWKI is pure entertainment fantasy, written by Walter Mitty wannabe bar room commandoes who do their shooting with a keyboard, having no practical experience and who could not tell horse manure from cow manure if they tasted it.

Start by reading the chapter Management of the Cap & Ball Sixgun by Keith (1961) and learn the fundamentals of black powder shooting with a cap & ball revolver. Then after you hunted small game for several seasons, you could then appreciate what a fine cartridge the .44-40 Winchester is.

If you want to load black powder for your survival gun, a .44-40 rifle and revolver are the right combination. A half-ounce bullet of caliber starting with a "4" at 900 fps or more from a revolver does not need to expand, although 1200 fps produced by the same black powder load from a rifle will, and without being hollow-pointed. That's what 1 to 40 or 1 to 30 tin-lead alloy does.

Google John Kort to read his black powder journey.

[SPJ]

Thank you all. I think I have also found answers to my questions in this older thread by the poster w30wcf. I understand that he is not longer around sadly, but I am happy to have found his comments and if anyone could confirm them I would appreciate it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?8616-Original-38-Smith-amp-Wesson-Special-B-P-Ballistics/page2

[Outpost75]

Thank you all. I think I have found answers to my questions too in this older thread by the poster w30wcf. I understand that he is not longer around sadly, but I am happy to find his comments and if anyone could confirm them I would appreciate it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?8616-Original-38-Smith-amp-Wesson-Special-B-P-Ballistics/page2

w30wcf was indeed the late John Kort who wasthe great mentor to us of all. Thanks for posting the link to his black powder .38 Special thread. I enjoyed reading it again after all these years.
You can take the contents there as gospel.

The most successful formula would be to get the Accurate mold I suggested, cast your bullets from 1 to 30 or 1 to 40 alloy, lube with either SPG or 50-50 beeswax and olive oil, and load about 22-23 grains of Goex 3Fg in .357 brass. You will find that about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.

Once you confirm that your load is working you can send the mold blocks off to Erik Ohlen at www.hollowpointmold.com and have a couple cavities converted to HP using his inset bar conversion with the cavity geometry as suggested and it should perform very well. I like having a 4-cavity aluminum black with 2 cavities converted to HP, leaving the other pair as solids. That bullet will perform very well with standard pressure smokeless loads loading 3.5 grains of Bullseye in the .38 Special or 4.5 grains of Bullseye in the .357 Magnum (to approximate .38 Special +P velocity).

[SPJ]

w30wcf was indeed the late John Kort who wasthe great mentor to us of all. Thanks for posting the link to his black powder .38 Special thread. I enjoyed reading it again after all these years.
You can take the contents there as gospel.

The most successful formula would be to get the Accurate mold I suggested, cast your bullets from 1 to 30 or 1 to 40 alloy, lube with either SPG or 50-50 beeswax and olive oil, and load about 22-23 grains of Goex 3Fg in .357 brass. You will find that about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.

Once you confirm that your load is working you can send the mold blocks off to Erik Ohlen at www.hollowpointmold.com and have a couple cavities converted to HP using his inset bar conversion with the cavity geometry as suggested and it should perform very well. I like having a 4-cavity aluminum black with 2 cavities converted to HP, leaving the other pair as solids. That bullet will perform very well with standard pressure smokeless loads loading 3.5 grains of Bullseye in the .38 Special or 4.5 grains of Bullseye in the .357 Magnum (to approximate .38 Special +P velocity).

After doing some research I think that the Ideal 358439 HP seems to closely fit the description of what you suggest. This guy seems to think it is the best http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_13_CastingHPBullets.htm . Would you recommend it, or are you specifically suggesting a lighter bullet since the Accurate is already 155grs and would thus be less with an HP?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020725697

[Outpost75]

After doing some research I think that the Ideal 358439 HP seems to closely fit the description of what you suggest. This guy seems to think it is the best http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_13_CastingHPBullets.htm . Would you recommend it, or are you specifically suggesting a lighter bullet since the Accurate is already 155grs and would thus be less with an HP?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020725697

The issue with the Lyman/Ideal HP molds is that the cavity geometry is incorrect to expand well at low velocities. The quality of current Lyman product is not up to snuff. IMHO you would be wasting your money. Re-read my earlier reply which describes the correct shape of the core pin to provide a deep HP which will expand at low velocity, yet provide maximum weight retention without the bullet fragmenting.

The single-cavity molds are difficult to use and result in a poor in production rate. A 4-cavity Accurate mold having 2-cavities converted to HP with the inset bar will enable you to cast a high volume of quality bullets, of correct size in your chosen alloy. You will need to spend some money, but the benefit is that you will not be frustrated by a poor quality mold made by 19th Century obsolete manufacturing methods. If you decide to have an Accurate mold modified to HP by Erik, expect to pay $50 per cavity modified.

[SPJ]

Thank you. Just curious, what is the mass of the bullets you have made by that design then, and how deep is the HP cavity compared to the OAL?

[Outpost75]

Thank you. Just curious, what is the mass of the bullets you have made by that design then, and how deep is the HP cavity compared to the OAL?

The solids weigh 155 grains and the HPs 147. With the .15" diameter core pin and 15 degree draft angle the cavity would be a cone of max depth potentially 4 times diameter or 0.6" if extended completely to the interection of lines in a sharp point, but Erik generally blunts the core pin to full hemisphere end at a depth approximately equal to the bullet diameter, as this works well.

A deep cavity is not needed. A cup-point with 60 degree draft angle with conical cavity equal to the major diameter of the pin works well, as does also a full hemisphere of similar depth as was used in the .455 Manstopper. These expanded bullets all in 1 to 40 alloy at velocities around 700-800 fps.

264855264856

[SPJ]

You've helped me understand a lot. Thank you very much.