Pyrodex RS for .45 Colt?

[avogunner]

I have a 1989 Hodgdon "Basic Data Manual" and in the Pyrodex section (yes, this has a section just for Pyrodex data) it lists 20-25 gr of 'CTG or RS' for 250gr (lead) .45LC loads.
I happened upon a pound of RS recently and I'd like to use it in my Vaquero. Are there any here that have used it and have comments/recommendations? For example, I typically use Unique with the 454190 Lyman boolit (or the Lee 255 and 200 RF) so if I was to use the RS that I have...do I need different lube (from the basic 50/50 I use now)? This would be my first foray into "black powder" cartridges and I'm looking for advice. Oh yeah, I also have a .45LC Uberti 1860 Henry that I would use this in also....any special considerations for the rifle?
Thanks
Semper Fi!

[Outpost75]

For black and Pyrodex I would mix 50-50 Crisco and beexwax or olive oil and beeswax.

But you could also try blending some of your 50-50 Alox-beeswax with equal parts by melted volume with Crisco or tallow and use that. I have done that for small batches and it works fine, if a bit smoky. But hey, you are shooting flaming dirt anyway so other than a different smell there is nothing to give you away. Traditionalists will certainly want to burn you at the stake or bury you up to your neck at an ant hill for being a heretic, but if you keep your mouth shut and don't tell anybody it will work just fine.

[Gray Fox]

I have a Hogdon pamphlet from about the same period and mine says that the 20-25 grain charges are weighed, not thrown by a black powder powder measure. I have loaded .45 Colt and .45 Schofield with both RS and cartridge grade (was gifted a case of it) and used the same powder measures that I would use for ffg BP, 37 grains for .45 Colt and about 10 grains less for the Schofield. I used magnum pistol primers as I found it a bit harder to ignite than real BP. I have always used the same methods to clean brass used for Pyrodex as I do for BP. I lubed all boolits with Lyman Black Powder Gold lube sticks in my Lyman lubrisizer. SPG sticks would also work. GF

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello avogunner,

When I started loading my 44 Colt Original with Black Powder, I made my own lube.
I went with ¾ cup Crisco Shortening, ¼ lb. of Gulf Wax, and ¼ lb. of Bees Wax.
Then I started loading with Black MZ with no need for lube.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Be fanatical about cleaning your revolver after shooting the Pyrodex. I've done it...it's fun...

[Ozark mike]

Rs is for rifle shotgun
P is for pistol
Pyrodex is more corrosive than charcoal
And lastly pyrodex is a California gimmick
Been there done that no more for me only charcoal from here on out
These are my comments and im sticking to em

[Nobade]

If you shoot pyrodex in your vaquero make sure you take it down to the last part and clean it good or you'll be sorry. Don't ask me how I know. Any more I only use real BP. I hose the innards down with ballistol when I'm done and detail strip them every few years. Not a spot of rust to be found.

[bedbugbilly]

I have never used Pyrodex but have shot BP revolvers since I was a kid in the dark ages. Regardless of if it is a C & B or a cartridge revolver - you will get fouling due to the nature of the beast. So . . make sure you lube your cylinder pin of your Vacquero well - I have used 50-50 of crisco and real beeswax toilet bowl ring melted together as a lube for years. Prior to shooting, I lube the cylinder pin well with the same lube. It will afford you many more cylinders full of shooting before you start to feel the cylinder dragging from built up fouling.

Good luck and enjoy. I had a 5 1/2" New Vaquero in 357 at one time and it shot very well with BP.

[Dave T]

I started my journey into BP cartridge shooting with Pyrodex P in the 45 Colt and RS in brass shells in a 12 ga Double. After corroding one of the barrels of the shot gun and pitting various places on a Uberti single action, I switched to real black powder. Interestingly I find it easier to clean up after shooting BP than Pyrodex.

My advice would be to sell or even give away that Pyrodex and get the real thing.

YMMV,
Dave

[avogunner]

Great info! All the comments on Pyrodex being more corrosive than BP has convinced me to abandon that project. I think I'll be using it to start the fire pit.
Thanks fellas!
Semper Fi.

[salvadore]

I'm not sure I believe that is more corrosive than BP. I would love to see a (scientific?) comparison rather than anecdotes. I understand the historical appeal of BP and the clique like following of the holy black powder Batman. I haven't shot BP since the 70s, but doubt clean up would have to be more than BP. I still have a 1/3 of a can of gearhart something or other BP $3.50 a pound musta been when I discovered pyrodex. Anyway, a Marine shouldn't be afraid of opinions.

[John Boy]

Salvadore, Bill Knight, the Mad Monk ... most knowledgeable person about black powder and substitutes, did a corrosion test of Pyrodex. Put the powder on a steel plate and set it outdoors. After 3 days, started rusting & pitting the steel. I failed to clean one of my BP rifles in a controlled humidity safe for a week. Zero corrosion, BP foul is potassium bicarbonate and potassium sulfide. It is the sulfide that activates corrosion when effected by moisture.
PS: Gerhart bought out the DuPont BP facility in Moosic PA in 1971 and it was renamed Goex. The facility was closed down because of poor water quality and labor issues after the blew up. It is produced since then in Louisiana. Hodgdon now owns Goex
which is the only BP made in the United States

[salvadore]

John Boy, I don't know Bill Knight, the Mad Monk, (I thought that was Rasputen), and I don't know if he really is the most knowledgable person about black powder and substitutes. Even so I wouldn't argue his conclusion, nor would I argue the opposite conclusions I found on the net to include a comment on the Starline brass web site.

The more hyperbolic comments in this thread sound like repetition of things people have read, been told, dreamed, etc. I mean no disrespect to the the mad monk or anyone else's opinion. I believe you should be fanatical about cleaning with BP or pyrodex, but don't know if breaking down your shooter to the last part is necessary.

I came to the conclusion that pyro is less corrosive and than BP almost 50 years ago and haven't anything to do with BP since. I didn't do any scientific testing and I guess like everyone else I could be wrong, I think we do Avogunner a disservice putting him off of pyrodex by repeating prejudices and old wives tales. Finally, I bet BP is no longer $3.50 per so if avogunner can get past the horrors of pyrodex his shooting might be cheaper too.

thats the longest friggin reply I have ever done....sorry.

[John Boy]

Salvadore, register on this link and read the studies performed by Bill Knight. I have all of his files and am too lazy to post for rebuttal to your position ... https://1858remington.com/index.php?topic=12299.0

I have never shot one ounce of substitute BP, and don’t care too, but have studied for density & grain size nearly every black powder made for the thousands of reloads made and shot in my firearms, from 22LR up to 50-70 plus metrics
PS: Bill Knight was my mentor into black powder and is recognized in the BP Community as the most knowledgeable person on the subject of black and substitute powders

You also might register on Shiloh Rifles forum and ask... Who is Bill Knight and his studies performed at home and a chemist on the subject of powders he performed

[salvadore]

John boy, I don't have a position, I have an opinion. I don't do communities, it's the leading cause of group think. If you don't believe it read some of the threads here in. The holy black crowd come across as tiresome at best and closed minded twerps at their worst. Not all, but it just takes a few to ruin the credibility of the "community". Unfortunately there are people like these in most shooting disciplines. Just because they are there doesn't mean I have to pay attention to them.

BTW, you were kidding about reading the mad monks findings, right?
Egad John boy, I just realized, you're from Jersey.

[Lead pot]

There was a sub forum started for black powder subs so these pissing matches don't start here.

[Bent Ramrod]

Pyrodex was in a sense a creation of its time. The student protests and Weatherman bombings had resulted in restrictions for black powder shipping and storage that made it hard for retailers to order and stock. At the time, it was classed (IIRC) as an “explosive;” of what category, I now disremember. This inconvenienced Civil War re-enactors, cap&ball revolver shooters and buckskinners, a large market back then.

Dan Pawlak decided to address this issue, as well as the fouling buildup that discomfited black powder shooters of the time. He added (or substituted) potassium perchlorate to the basic black powder formulation, to raise the ignition temperature enough to move the new formula from the category of “explosive” to that of “flammable solid.” This allowed retailers to order the stuff and put it on the shelves with smokeless powder (also classified as a “flammable solid”), and not have to pay extra for shipping and have a wood-lined magazine with low storage limits that black powder had to have at the time.

While he was at it, he noticed that stearate salts crystallize out in flat, slippery sheets. Mixing stearates into the formula left a deposit of this slick stuff in the barrel of the gun, which reduced the buildup of subsequent fouling, and allowed many shots without wiping in between, blowtubing, or nineteenth-century lubes, lost knowledge at the time that had to be rediscovered a few years later when black powder cartridge shooting experienced a revival.

Pawlak, of course, had to test these mixtures extensively until he found something that reproduced the pressure curve of the original black powder. Even when he got this down, the formulation had two drawbacks. The first was that the higher ignition temperature which the regulators demanded made it hard to fire in flintlocks and required Magnum caps or other expedients in caplocks. The second was the chloride byproduct of the combustion. If left around, chloride will produce rust stains on stainless steel, and of course the chloride residue from corrosive primers was responsible for the rotted bores seen in many vintage and antique guns even now. However, Magnum caps were produced, and the same careful water-based cleaning to remove all black powder residue would take care of Pyrodex residue as well. The less fastidious shooter might get away with a lick and a promise with black powder cleaning, but Pyrodex would rust any metal surface that the smoke was left on.

Nowhere in the advertising did it ever say that Pyrodex didn’t need to be cleaned up thoroughly after shooting, but some people seemed to think that not having to wipe between shots also meant that cleaning before putting away could be skimped or neglected.

Nowadays, black powder can be packaged so it ships as a “flammable solid,” by what exercise in bureaucratic thinking I have no concept, so to an extent, Pyrodex is obsolete for its original purpose. However, it is a good product, and I’ve shot a lot of it with perfect satisfaction. I’ve also tried other substitutes, just to see what they do. The stuff has found a niche in the market, and is here to stay. For those philosophical souls and the existential “Why?” they’re always propounding, people use it because it’s convenient, economical, and works for their purposes.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Yup...seems like Pyrodex is always good for an argument. Back almost 20 years ago I was a Hunter Ed Instructor for several years and we covered a wide range of subjects. At the time I was really "into" muzzleloaders and on the last day of each class I'd let the kids all fire one or two shots from my CVA .50 cal. Hawken. There would be perhaps 15 kids and around 30 shots fired, and never had to swab the barrel. After the session I'd clean the rifle with hot, soapy water and never had a speck of rust. I like the stuff and use it in my cap & ball revolvers as well with good results. The main takeaway here is "clean, clean, clean!" If you use either Pyrodex or Black Powder and store a dirty gun away in a humid environment you'll be sorry. If you use either and clean your gun the net sum result will be the same, a clean gun.

[Outpost75]

Bent Ramrod nailed it precisely. Reading the patent description and referring back to your high school chemistry the potassium chloride salts produced upon combustion of Pyrodex are no different than old wartime corrosive primers, except that you have a far greater quantity of the stuff deposited with each shot. I always removed the grips from my Ruger Old Army then completely immersed the assembled gun in hot soapy water, followed by a clean water rinse, then Ed's Red and have never had a spec of rust.

[Walks]

Back in the days when I started Cowboy Shooting I loaded that same #454190 over 30grs by volume of Pyrodex CTG with a Ox-Yoke Wonder Wad over the powder. Used Magnum primers. Lubed with T/C Bore Butter or Lyman Black Powder Gold in a dedicated Lube-Sizer.

Cleaned with a Concoction that contained Murphy's Oil Soap.

And YES, It is CORROSIVE as the dickens.

[Outpost75]

A Hoppe's bottle full of Murphy's Oil Soap added to a quart of Ed's Red will enable it to form a stable emulsion in water. You then have a pink solution similar in consistency to Pepto Bismol which works on chlorate primed ammo and black powder. The lanolin in the Ed's Red leaves a protective film on the metal to positively prevent rusting until the water evaporates. Standing the cleaned gun near the wood stove at the hunting camp finishes the job. Or at home discreetly borrow the hair dryer from SWMBO.

[Walks]

Actually the hair dryer is mine.

For the BEARD

[salvadore]

Is that really necessary? My current '73 I clean with hot soapy water, easy peasy, and I don't even own a hunting camp with a wood stove.

[archeryrob]

Pyrodex is awful stuff. I used to use it in my inline hunting rifle and the breach gets so dirty I can hardly get it clean and use some harsh cleaning stuff to get it clean. Switched to 777 for it and going to try American Frontier powder for my revolvers and see if that keeps the cylinder fowling down compared to FFF BP. I would even try Pyrodex in them.

Pyrodex is bloody awful to clean and corrosive. O got half a pound I am trying to find out how to use without endangering any more guns.

[salvadore]

Wizard show Arch eh wot. I'm on the my way to the range at 10 degrees with a few loaded with pyro and a few with 777 2f and a chrono. I've been using the horrible, evil amd bloody awful pyro because it didn't foul like bp in my 1858 remington. Be sure to boil your shooter and chase all the screw threads spray with ambergris and Sumatran lizard oil after using pyro...that's a joke Arch. Give it a try and see what you think.

[Outpost75]

Mountain State rattlesnake bile can be substituted for the Sumatra lizard oil, if thinned 50-50 with 190 proof corn alcohol decanted from a possum bladder during the dark of the moon while whistling Little Brown Jug.

[salvadore]

I've heard that all my life.

[KCSO]

Got some as a gift and used it for 44 and 45 pistol with no problems, just a very light compression though.

[archeryrob]

Anyone tried American Frontier powder yet? I just picked up a # for 20.95 in FFF substitute and going to try it in paper cartridges in the 1858 cap cylinder. I was thinking of trying this and N320, WHEN I can find primers again. Which is why I am making paper cartridges. I bough the N320 thinking it was N32C becuase they did not have trail boss and was sold out.

I am not sure I am using the N320 and might just save it for 9mm rounds for the girls.