unusual ladle

[Bob Fleming]

Who made this unusual ladle?264660

[Mk42gunner]

Don't know, but I would bet that it was meant for pouring Babbitt bearings not boolits originally.

Robert

[Bob Fleming]

Another view. Nice machined insert for the 264665valve.

[Bob Fleming]

264666

[Mal Paso]

Very Cool! Thanks for sharing!

[kevin c]

Very different! Have you tried it? How well does it work?

[Bob Fleming]

It holds water without any dripping. The valve works very well. Have not cast with it. I use a bottom pour pot. And I don't care for casting in the summer.

[Bob Fleming]

The valve stem seems to be made of something heavier than steel. Perhaps it is just the desighn but seems heavy enough that it would not float in lead. I can tell there is lead like residue/dross on it. Can't find a maker's mark on it. Seems to be a factory produced item judging by the nice cast iron chamber but not mass produced. Might be a prototype/demonstration piece an inventor was using to try to get a factory to make a run of them. Started casting in the 1970s and went to my share of gun shows every year but never saw one of these before.

[Dusty Bannister]

Can not tell you who made that dipper to produce soft nosed bullets. I think at one time LBT made one, but do not recall seeing any. That has been some time ago.

[Bob Fleming]

Don't see a way to measure out soft lead for a two alloy bullet with this bottom pour ladle.
The LBT softnose caster and the Trammco metering ladle both come up in searches. The Trammco is completely different and I have not found a photo of the LBT.

[Dusty Bannister]

Cast a slug of the weight of the nose desired. Drop a slug in this ladle, let it float in a heated pot of alloy. When fluid, pour soft alloy, follow with hard alloy.

[Mike W1]

Don't see a way to measure out soft lead for a two alloy bullet with this bottom pour ladle.
The LBT softnose caster and the Trammco metering ladle both come otoup in searches. The Trammco is completely different and I have not found a photo of the LBT.
h
I think there was a thread on here recently that had a photo of the LBT.

[country gent]

My guess would be its a production ladle meant to hold a certain amount of lead for a casting on a production line for something. A Lot were made in house and only held enough for the part and desired sprue. This was so the line worker didn't try casting 2 parts with 1 ladle full the second being cooler do to being been in the ladle longer. other reasons were the worker was only lifting what was needed and stayed "fresh" longer. smaller spills and or over pours. A lot of factories make special tooling just for their use for these reasons. It may have been used with zinc or aluminum also.

Another thought that comes to mind is it was a ladle for pulling samples of material for testing certification from the pots and was the amount need to certify alloy.

[762sultan]

I think that was made by SAECO or CRAMER. I saw a photo like that when I was looking for early SAECO molds

[762sultan]

Here is a picture.
264809

[Bob Fleming]

Thank You 762Sultan! That is a winner. I recognized the Saeco style wood grips but these look like someone put a piece of broom handle in a lathe and free-handed a similar desighn. The grooves are not the same depth, width or the same distance apart.

[762sultan]

Those handles do look like SAECO mold handles. I recognized it when I first saw them. They may have some value to a SAECO collector. Find out their value before you let someone talk you out of them.

[Bob Fleming]

WOW! I knew I had seen that before! With new search terms suggested by 762sultan's discovery I found another one. Cramer sold one like this too! Of all the places, I have read these articles many times over the years:
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_book_chapter_1_introduction.htm

264810

[onelight]

Interesting , never seen one of those before.

[Bob Fleming]

Now that the "pressure dipper" has been identified, when did Saeco use a manual lathe to make wood grips one at a time by hand?
I suspect this is actually made by Cramer and someone replaced the grip.

[Bob Fleming]

Peerless sold them too......
http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/the-library/moulds/30-mold-catalogs-of-old/125-peerless-molds

[Bob Fleming]

If it is a valuable collector's item then it will have to suffer the same fate as my unused 4 cavity H&G 503 and the apparently first version of the Ideal 429421HP. Forget the exact numbers but they went for over $500 and over $200 on the usual auction site. They can be seen here in case you wish to mourn the loss with me. Really wish I could have kept them.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?1954-quot-Real-quot-Keith-Bullets&p=4193210#post4193210

[Mike W1]

I saved part of that thread I mentioned earlier. Will try and stick the photo of the LBT soft nose casting rig from it.

264825

[Mk42gunner]

Well I was wrong, it was not meant for pouring Babbitt bearings.

Nice to have it identified.

Robert

[Bob Fleming]

Thank You for giving it a shot!

[poppy42]

I tell ya I’d love ya find one of those and give it a try. It definitely looks interesting

[Bob Fleming]

I have to think it was not a commercial sucess. This leaves me curious what was the reason for the failure of the product. Could it be bottom pour pots? When did bottom pour pots become popular?

[Bob Fleming]

A bit of speculation here; Cramer began producing bullet moulds in something like 1937 if my research proves correct. I have no idea when they began making this pressure dipper but if they were making it before WWII the pressure dipper production was probably put on hold when they switched to supporting the war. The only change apparent from the very sketchy illustrations when Saeco took over the production lines seems to be the simpler shape of the turned wood handle and what became the classic 3 groove desighn that helps us spot Saeco moulds on overcrowded gun show tables. The identical mechanism shown in all illustrations makes me wonder if all of them were made before the war and Saeco finished the existing inventory with their own handles after the war. If Saeco had made the cast iron bowl I think it would have their name cast into it. It is not. Saceo should at least be stamped into the small piece of bar stock used to lift the valve. There is no identifying mark on it anywhere.

Do we have any Saeco collectors here that might clear up the mystery?
This makes 18 posts. That is a little over half way to being able to sell it here in the S&S section.

[onelight]

The main difference over a ladle like a Lyman where I start the pour with the spruce plate on the side and put they spout in the hole and rotate both to vertical to use the weight of the lead in the ladle to pressure cast , this ladle would do the same thing but would be less work because you don't have to rotate the mold and ladle together.
You could just set the ladle on the upright spruce plate and open the valve at the cost of a more complex ladle.
At least that is how it looks to me.

[Bob Fleming]

You can't rotate the mould back sideways when it is full. Rotating the ladle by it's self makes a mess with the extra. Got to be quick. Sudden moves are not good when dealing with molten lead!
With the pressure dipper you hold the lever down until the mould is full then release it. The machined insert makes a good seal against the sprue plate which helps put pressure inside the mould and keep leaks to a minimum.

It is tempting to try it out but the temperature is hitting or very too close to 100 every day this time of the year.

[ddixie884]

I have not seen anything like that before. You guys are a wealth of information........

[onelight]

You can't rotate the mould back sideways when it is full. Rotating the ladle by it's self makes a mess with the extra. Got to be quick. Sudden moves are not good when dealing with molten lead!
The Lyman cast bullet hand book has a tutorial on pressure casting with the Lyman ladle And the are a few videos on utube that show how you do it , the whole process is slow and controlled and works quite well with single and double cavity molds but there is some technique to be learned.

[Bob Fleming]

I have a bottom pour lyman ladle but never used it. It is a weakness some of us bottom pour pot users have. I am in the process of making a 500 pound (6.9 gallons total volume) lead melting and alloy mixing pot and the most challenging aspect has been figuring out a proper bottom pour outlet.

I guess doing it on the cheap is the biggest factor in the challenge.

[gwpercle]

I have to think it was not a commercial sucess. This leaves me curious what was the reason for the failure of the product. Could it be bottom pour pots? When did bottom pour pots become popular?

It wasn't a huge success , it worked but had moving parts and it could leak if not kept clean ...Sorta like Lee bottom pour pot mechanisms ... When I bought my first casting tools set up in 1967 the dealer had one but he told me to get the Lyman dipper with the side spout... no moving parts , easier to use and simpler ... I'm pretty sure it was at least 1/2 price of the SAECO dipper .
I was sold on the simpler side spout dipper and a bet a lot of others were too ... the Lyman was just a better mouse trap. It's still sold to this day and the SAECO dipper is a faded memory !
Gary