Suggestions: 44-40 Black Power. Big Bore, Big Chamber

[littlef]

I have a recenty acquired a Winchester 1873 in 44-40, manufactured in 1890. Grooves measure .4255. Lands measure: .433. The chamber measures to .44 or larger. Its not perfectly round, so on my chamber casting, the .444 was the narrowest measurement.

I just bought hollow base, .429, 222 grain bullets from buffalo arms. They are loaded up, but I haven't made it to the range yet. I'm trying to find better options. I've found a mold: accurate 43-210b 210 grain. I've read that if you use soft enough lead that it can obturate and fill the grooves. Sounds ambtious. Looking for suggestions

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[Outpost75]

Accurate 43-200QL cast from 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals is exactly what you need.264495

Cast chamber and size nose stop-ring to chamber throat diameter. Load 6 grains of Bullseye, TiteGroup or Trail Boss, or 36 grs.of Goex 3Fg with SPG lube if you prefer traditional.

You WILL be happy.

[littlef]

interesting -so, you are saying I should take the casts, size them down to my .444 chamber cast dimension? - what about the driving bands only being .428? - fyi: I plan on only using black powder/black powder substitutes.

[sharps4590]

Do you have the land and groove measurement reversed? The lands can't be larger than the groove diameter. Black powder will "bump up" soft cast bullets but given you throat dimension I don't believe that's a concern. I can't speak to any of the fake BP's other than Pyrodex will never be fired in any of my firearms.

I concur with Outpost. Nice looking rifle!

[Outpost75]

The 1 to 30 alloy will bump up with black or a fast burning pistol powder like Bullseye. Size nose to throat diameter, driving bands will remain untouched, as-cast.

[Dave T]

I'll join the "nice rifle" chorus. And the advice you've been given (except for that weird smokeless stuff - lol) is all good.

Dave

[littlef]

yes sharps, I reverse the land/groove measurments. - good call. thanks on the compliments to the rifle. Its was dirty, and had a little surface rust when i got it. You could tell the typical field type maintenance had been done, but it hadn't had a full tear down in a long time. I took it down to frame, and boiled everything for an hour then carded it. I'm pretty happy with it. Can't wait to take it to the range and test it out. -- glad to hear you concur with outpost.

[littlef]

I'll join the "nice rifle" chorus. And the advice you've been given (except for that weird smokeless stuff - lol) is all good.

Dave

Thank you very much sir.

[littlef]

Thank to everyone for their input. Hopefully, I'll be about to take it to the range this weekend, and I'll test out the hollow base bullets I got from buffalo arms. I'll assess that data, but I anticipate seeing a new 430-200ql in my future. I'll post my progress as it develops.

[Savvy Jack]

accurate 43-200ql cast from 1 to 30 tin-lead from roto metals is exactly what you need.264495

cast chamber and size nose stop-ring to chamber throat diameter. Load 6 grains of bullseye, titegroup or trail boss, or 36 grs.of goex 3fg with spg lube if you prefer traditional.

You will be happy.

what he said!!!

Try this article,
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/ed-harris/over-sized-bullet-for-over-sizes-bores-original-winchester-73-bores


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https://youtu.be/XzyqOsB5KuU

[Babbott213]

littlef, sounds like you have the same issue as myself. My 1873 dates to 1879. When I slugged my bore, it too measured out to .433”. My barrel is a five groove, so I had to wrap a 2mil shim around the slug, measure and then deduct 4mil to get my diameter. I just looked at the hollow base .429” bullets from Buffalo Arms today and looks like they’re out of stock. A couple of years ago I played around with some .433” bullets. They was a pain to get into the case, but they would chamber and shoot, but they was a solid base and I really would like to stick to a closer to traditional size for the rifle too. I plan on getting back on it as soon as I can though. I too only plan on shooting Black Powder through it. You can look back at some of my post and you can see some of the post that I’ve made about my rifle. Looking forward to seeing how your range time goes. What area do you live? I’m in Alabama myself.


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[littlef]

Hi Babbot123, thanks. I'll check out your posts, and see what I can absorb. I'm in Denver, CO. Looking forward to the weekend. Bringing a new toy to the range, always makes for a fun day.

[Babbott213]

Hi Babbot123, thanks. I'll check out your posts, and see what I can absorb. I'm in Denver, CO. Looking forward to the weekend. Bringing a new toy to the range, always makes for a fun day.

Ah, I have a good friend in Denver. He owns Alpha Defense Group there. He also does spray foam roofs and coatings which is how I met him a couple of years ago. Looking forward to hearing how the range time goes soon.


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[littlef]

So last weekend, I took the 1873 out, and I put 50 rounds down range. It ran great with no issues. It took me a little bit to get used to the barleycorn sight. I learned I have to raise the front sight all the way up, and I need to be able to see the entire front sight Base in the bottom of the rear notch. Once I did that, it shot to point of aim at 50 yards and 100 yards. Interesting observation, The last 10-15 rounds or so started dropping. By round 45, I needed to aim about 6 inches up to hit in the black. Its certainly a fun rifle to shoot. velocity was fron 1036 to 1194 using a labradar unit. This was using the buffalo arms 222 gr hollow base and pyrodex ffg. I didn't measure the exact charge. I was using a new lyman black powder measurer. The initial amount I set wouldn't fit in the case, and then I just kept backing it down, till the charge fit with a little compression, so I'm not sure of what that actual charge volume was. Next, I plan on picking up the accurate 43-s00ql mold. I'll do a little more diligent measuring when I get to the stage. attached is a little youtube video from the range.
https://youtu.be/jKRd_hgZb14

[Wayne Smith]

For loading mine I made a compression die out of a spare (off eBay) bullet seating die. The seat stem fit the inside of the case closely and I filled the hollow with liquid steel. Viola - a compression die.

[littlef]

thats a pretty clever idea

[Savvy Jack]

Original dissected black powder cartridges showed an average of .21" powder compression, 40gr of a "sporting" black powder. If you are using a heavier than 200gr bullet with a deeper seating design, you may not can get .21" compression. Early semi-balloonhead cases held an extra 2gr of black powder than the Star Line cases I use in my loads.

Slightly tap your cases to settle the powder then use the compression die. Compress the powder no more than .21" or less so the bullet can be crimped. If it takes a LOT of pressure to compress, you can bulge the brass a little, then you know you went too far.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/john-kort/two-peas-in-a-pod-by-john-kort

[indian joe]

So last weekend, I took the 1873 out, and I put 50 rounds down range. It ran great with no issues. It took me a little bit to get used to the barleycorn sight. I learned I have to raise the front sight all the way up, and I need to be able to see the entire front sight Base in the bottom of the rear notch. Once I did that, it shot to point of aim at 50 yards and 100 yards. Interesting observation, The last 10-15 rounds or so started dropping. By round 45, I needed to aim about 6 inches up to hit in the black. Its certainly a fun rifle to shoot. velocity was fron 1036 to 1194 using a labradar unit. This was using the buffalo arms 222 gr hollow base and pyrodex ffg. I didn't measure the exact charge. I was using a new lyman black powder measurer. The initial amount I set wouldn't fit in the case, and then I just kept backing it down, till the charge fit with a little compression, so I'm not sure of what that actual charge volume was. Next, I plan on picking up the accurate 43-s00ql mold. I'll do a little more diligent measuring when I get to the stage. attached is a little youtube video from the range.
https://youtu.be/jKRd_hgZb14

Watched the video - the best thing of this is to see a young feller shooting old guns - there is hope for the world after all!

[littlef]

I concurr. I used to go to the range regularly with his father, but last year his father passed away from cancer. Since then, we have been going to the range together. He's always up for going out and shooting when I acquire a new addition to the collection.

[sharps4590]

About a month ago, when I was REALLY bored from the whole covid thing, I worked up a BP load for my Uberti '73 in 44-40. My bullet was the Lee 210 gr. bullet cast of 25-1 and lubed with SPG. I drop tubed 35 grs. of Old Eynsford Fffg into the case and covered it with a .020 card wad then seated the bullet to give just a bit of compression. I never use a compression die. Oh, I used Magnum pistol primers. At 50 yards groups hovered around an inch. Next batch I used regular primers and the groups opened up to about 2 inches. Saw the same thing when working with BP in my Jeffrey Rook rifle.

That isn't like shooting an original with odd dimensions but the load might be worth trying.

[littlef]

Thanks sharps4590! My question was really about getting a properly sized mold to fit my oddly shaped chamber/throat/groove diameter. I think i have that question answered. mold i ordered. I can work up powder a charge once I have projectiles casted.

[Chill Wills]

You are clearly having fun with this old rifle. And it with you. :grin:

[littlef]

You are clearly having fun with this old rifle. And it with you. :grin:

definitely!

[littlef]

ok, Here's another Question. I ordered the bullet mold through accurate (43-200ql) and handles. I'm going to need to re-size the casted bullets down to the .444 throat diameter. I'm using a lee turret press. I can't find any sizing dies in .444 in a lee push through variation. There are custom dies, but the only custom sizing options seem to be for a lubrisizer (which I don't own) or get a lee APP press (which I don't own either.) The only options I see involve me buying another press. Are their options out there to get a custom sizing die that would fit a lee turret?

[Savvy Jack]

I'm going to need to re-size the casted bullets down to the .444 throat diameter.

I think you are misunderstanding the use of the 43-200Q Did you read the article in the link I posted?

Outpost75, the first person to reply to your topic, designed this bullet. Read the article he wrote about it and I put some of it on the website.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/ed-harris/over-sized-bullet-for-over-sizes-bores-original-winchester-73-bores

[Outpost75]

interesting -so, you are saying I should take the casts, size them down to my .444 chamber cast dimension? - what about the driving bands only being .428? - fyi: I plan on only using black powder/black powder substitutes.

Most likely you will not need to size the stop ring flange on the bullet at all, because the seating die will do so when you force the bullet into the case mouth against the stop ring. Then the Redding Profile Crimp or Lee Factory Crimp die will finish forming a driving band ahead of the case mouth which will conform to the interior of the die diameter, usually .432" although results will vary depending upon the die make.

If you should choose to size the forepart in your lubricator-sizer, this works fine, and the smaller diameter driving bands will not be touched by a larger diameter size die. They will have a good film of extra lube on them which is fine. Wipe the excess lube which is extruded out the case mouth off with a rag when done and you are good to go.

[littlef]

Thanks, Savvy Jack. I saved that article. That was very helpful.

[littlef]

Gotcha outpost75, that makes sense, Savvy Jack also posted the the link: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/ed-harris/over-sized-bullet-for-over-sizes-bores-original-winchester-73-bores." That article goes into pretty good depth. I'll wait till the mold shows up, and I have a batch of casted bullets to experiment with. I'm using a lee factory crimp die, and if that doesn't work, I'll look into other options then. Thanks for your help.

[Outpost75]

Once you get going feel free to PM me if you have further questions. If looking for a smokeless load 6 grains of Bullseye, Trail Boss or Titegroup with 200-215-grain soft lead bullet will closely approximate factory ammo within safe pressure for the old guns.

[littlef]

Once you get going feel free to PM me if you have further questions. If looking for a smokeless load 6 grains of Bullseye, Trail Boss or Titegroup with 200-215-grain soft lead bullet will closely approximate factory ammo within safe pressure for the old guns.

excellent. Thank you very much sir.

[bigted]

So a question here and maybe it has been answered already ... if so, disregard.

What is the diameter of your fire formed brass neck's? Before sizing them ... after cleaning ... measure the inside of the neck after slight flairing the former crimp out. Would this not dictate your need for boolit diameter in a soft casting mix?

I have several old vintage rifles and this is my recipe for determining boolit diameter and so far it works like a charm.

For instance my Remington Rolling block in 43 Spanish required a .451 in an unsized case ... it shoots the custom 400ish grain boolit cast in a "special" mold from Accurate. Tom has always treated me great there and I have a few molds from him at particular and not normal diameter sizes.

Anyhew ... there is my addition to a great thread. Again nice ol '73' my friend. I wound up with same vintage as yours in 38 WCF. Love that old rifle.