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Frank46
12-23-2005, 03:54 AM
Well the gunny was at it again on thursday. The history channel did a mail call section about the knob creek machine gun shoot in kentucky. Yee Hah, now thats what I call fun. All sortsa goodies that go bang very fast. Especially liked the G.E Minigun. Pile of brass in one spot and a pile of links in another. Wouldn't you like to be a brass scrounger there. Frank

Bret4207
12-23-2005, 12:15 PM
My kids love to watch me watch "Mail call". Every time the Gunny comes on for the commercial break I start laughing. Memories of P.I. I guess. There is a guy that found his niche for sure.

versifier
12-23-2005, 01:16 PM
HOO-RAH!!! Me too! I'm a big Gunny fan!

taft33
12-24-2005, 09:47 AM
My son loves to watch the GUNNY.He likes to watch him shoot the enemy watermelons.He will sit right there with me and laugh till his sides hurt,except my son shoots enemy pop bottles with his Red Rider.He's seven years old and can't get enough shooting or mail call,what a kid.Walt

sundog
12-24-2005, 11:03 AM
Ummm, almost hate to ask. What is GUNNY? I guess I don't watch enough tv. Actually, I don't watch tv. sundog

anachronism
12-24-2005, 11:25 AM
Sundog, sundog, sundog... I never thought I ever have to explain Gunney Ermey to anone, so I'll let him tell you himself. http://www.rleeermey.com/

"I am Gunnery Sargent Hartman, your senior drill instructor.
You will speak only when spoken to, and the first and last words out of your filthy sewers will be "Sir". Do you maggots understand me?"

sundog
12-24-2005, 11:47 AM
Hooooah! sundog

Herb in Pa
12-24-2005, 12:52 PM
IF..you have highspeed access try this............

www.redstararms.com/KnobCreek.wmv

Scrounger
12-24-2005, 01:20 PM
Actually the Gunnery Sergeant title is honorary. He was medically discharged for injuries received in Viet Nam in the early 70s as an E6 (Staff Sergeant). He had a nice movie career before his television show took off. That was when the Corps gave him the honorary promotion to match his TV character but unlike most actors, there is no question but that he is exactly what he pretends to be...

grumble
12-24-2005, 01:53 PM
Ermy is the quintessential, prototypical, and stereotypical essense of what a gyrene gunny should be. I'd guess that most real DIs would kill to have his voice.

Pity the recruit who thinks Ermy is funny, and laughs at the real DI! <GGG>

Bret4207
12-24-2005, 04:21 PM
There is a common misconception that Marines say "Hoooah!" I don't know where this came from, but it just ain't so. The word is "OOORAH!!!" given in a gutteral (sp) tone or almost growled out. I don't know how to spell it as it sounds. Sort of hard to explain. "Hooahh" on the other hand is not used by Marines, but perhaps by army or those navy walrusses or sea lions, I forget what they're called. If the Gunny starts saying "Hooahh" I'm gonna have to get the boys together and straighten his script writers out.

Jumptrap
12-24-2005, 04:57 PM
There is a common misconception that Marines say "Hoooah!" I don't know where this came from, but it just ain't so. The word is "OOORAH!!!" given in a gutteral (sp) tone or almost growled out. I don't know how to spell it as it sounds. Sort of hard to explain. "Hooahh" on the other hand is not used by Marines, but perhaps by army or those navy walrusses or sea lions, I forget what they're called. If the Gunny starts saying "Hooahh" I'm gonna have to get the boys together and straighten his script writers out.

I always thought the Marines said, "I hope the Army gets here soon."

HAR!

Merry Christmas.

grumble
12-24-2005, 05:21 PM
Reminds me of a ditty my dad used to say:

The Army does the work,
The Navy gets the pay,
And the Marines come in
When the Army moves away.

omgb
12-24-2005, 05:54 PM
Reminds me of a saying we had in the Air Force: "You can tell a Marine.....but you can't tell him much". :)

R J Talley

Bret4207
12-24-2005, 06:19 PM
HAR! Keep 'em comin' guys! Merry Christmas all!

anachronism
12-24-2005, 06:37 PM
I have a close friend who is a Viet Nam era Marine. He is also a PTSD victim, I didn't believe PTSD was real, until I met him, and got to understand the nature of the affliction. He's now been out of the Marines for about thirty years. We have lunch from time to time, and just met again a few weeks ago. I got there first, and cracked up when I saw him enter the room. Proud, dignified bearing, ramrod straight. Chest out, gut in, a typical Marine. He walked closer to me and asked me in no uncertain terms what was so damn funny, so I told him "once a jarhead, always a jarhead"! And I told him he looked very proper and correct for a retired Marine. It seemed to make his day, he laughed too.... I think I'll just go call the old jarhead, later tonight.

sundog
12-24-2005, 06:48 PM
Trooper, if'n yer referin' to me, it'a still 'Hoooah'. That's ARMY for what ever fits the ocassion. As in. "Merry Christmas," -- "Hoooah!" "Take that hill." -- "Hoooah." Or, you just shot that terrorist in the HEAD!" -- "Hoooah!" It's all a matter of how sofistimacated you become... Merry Christmas my brothers, and nothing wrong with a little good interservice rivalry!

Hooooah!

You gotta be Hoooah! sundog

omgb
12-24-2005, 08:21 PM
I'll be honest with you all. I know several marines no long on active duty. (there are no EX-marines) All exemplify the highest standards of bearing and are a real pleasure to hunt and fish with. Real men, honor bound and faithful. I cherish the time I spend with them. Most vets I know are like that. We who served share a bond that is almost like a flesh and blood brotherhood. I don;t think less of those who did not serve, but I do think we who did are unique. I recently went to the mall with my wife and daughter. As they shopped I sat down and rested ....watching the girls go by. Two Korean War vets happened by and the three of us got into a conversation. I'm 50, they were in their 70s. Still, we were like long lost brothers, instand friends bound together by a long tradition of service and sacrifice. To the men and women of our armed forces, yesterday, today and tomorrow, I lift my glass and slaute you. Semper Fi and God's Blessing on all.

R J Talley
USAF 1974-1981
Det 3, 12th Wea Sq. ; Det 5, 9th Wea Sq.; Tatalina AFS, AK AAC,

Jumptrap
12-24-2005, 10:08 PM
You fellers know what iI like so much about you? You're all full of ****! I do thinks we could have some fun together........well, we do anyway.

Hey,....did you ever hear the one about........................

Frank46
12-25-2005, 05:38 AM
Trpr.Brett, navy walrusses!!!!!!!!, swabbies is more like it. I served on a flat top during the vietnam war. Worked out of #1 engineroom. The only time I saw water was when we got off watch and went topside for some fresh air. Always had the light off and wrapping up watches. Towards the end of my enlistment we were standing four on and four off. Not enough replacements or re-enlistments to make up for the guys going home.
USS Franklin D. Roosevelt CAV 42 M division gone but not forgotten Frank

StarMetal
12-25-2005, 01:29 PM
Frank46,

Do you know what happen to the USS Franklin? I was in at the same time as you. My home port was Norfolk, VA. One week they hauled the old WWII USS Franklin in. It was pretty well a ghost****. We were told that some company bought the thing to use the flight deck for a bridge somewhere and the rest was going to be scrapped.

My duty station was B3, after boileroom.

Joe

Blackwater
12-26-2005, 01:09 AM
Don't know about the Franklin, but I found out a short while back that my old ship, the USS Bexar, was sold to the Japs and made into razor blades. Every time I shave now, I wonder if the blade might be from my old ship. Funny how attached a man can get to an inanimate object, isn't it?

Frank46
12-26-2005, 03:28 AM
Starmetal, funny you should ask that question. I was on active duty from early 64 to late 67. We used to send some of the division personnel from the Roosevelt to the Franklin to salvage and strip machinery and parts for our own use. I think it was in the Philidelphia Naval shipyard at the time. Both ships are long gone. The Midway is on the west coast and will be made into a museum much like the Intrepid in New York. There were only three ships of the midway class. Midway, Roosevelt and Coral Sea. Frank

StarMetal
12-26-2005, 12:56 PM
Frank46

That time period you mentioned is exactly the same time period I saw it in Norfolk.

Joe

Jumptrap
12-26-2005, 02:43 PM
Frank46,

Do you know what happen to the USS Franklin? I was in at the same time as you. My home port was Norfolk, VA. One week they hauled the old WWII USS Franklin in. It was pretty well a ghost****. We were told that some company bought the thing to use the flight deck for a bridge somewhere and the rest was going to be scrapped.

My duty station was B3, after boileroom.

Joe

I know a man, E.C. Duke, who was on the Franklin the day it got hit. Hell of a story from his point of view. he was below decks when the kamikaze hit them. He said it went dark and they were all running the corridors...or whatever you swabs call them...trying to escape the smoke which instantly filled the ship. As he ran past a compartment, a bunch of sailors hollered for him to get in there as the flames were licking thier heels....but for some reason he kept going. When the fire was out and recovery began.....he was in a detail and found all those men dead in that compartment. He said you could have driven a dump truck through the flight deck (hole). They went to port in San Diego and as the ship was still listed as active duty, they stood watch and all the other stuff as at sea.....yet in dry dock. They finished out the war there in San Diego harbor.

StarMetal
12-26-2005, 03:57 PM
Jump,

The corridors are called passage ways, the walls bulkheads, the floor decks, the ceiling overheads, the stairs ladders, the doors hatches, the windows portals, beds bunks and there is a difference between a swab and a mop. A swab is the kind that has the long cloth strands around the handle in a circle and the proper way to apply it to the deck is elevate above the deck, spin it with your hand and drop it to the deck real fast, that way's it's spread out. A mop on the other hand the strands are just doubled over a metal hanger and basically it's profile is flat.

Joe

grumble
12-26-2005, 04:05 PM
"The corridors are called passage ways, the walls bulkheads, the floor decks, the ceiling overheads, the stairs ladders, the doors hatches, the windows portals, beds bunks..."

Why?

Bret4207
12-26-2005, 05:11 PM
Naval tradition. Nothing stronger 'cept maybe bubblegum in a kids hair.

StarMetal
12-26-2005, 05:32 PM
Because it's nautical terms.

Joe

grumble
12-26-2005, 05:53 PM
That's what I've heard about the Navy -- 200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress. <GGG>

Are nautical stairs different from landlubber stairs? Windows? Walls? watercoolers? Bathrooms?

StarMetal
12-26-2005, 06:04 PM
Grumble,

The Navy is a mighty force...their nuke subs alone could devastate the world. I'd say most the aircraft that did sorties in both Iraqi's war were naval. The Navy coupled with the Marines are one kick ass military force.

Joe

grumble
12-26-2005, 06:06 PM
So why can't they call a floor a floor?

Scrounger
12-26-2005, 06:17 PM
I was never a swabbiue but... water fountsins are 'scuttlebutts' (so are rumors), 'batrooms' are 'heads. Here's a link to a page with a dictionary of Navy Jargon. Some of them are familiar in everyday usage. http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/2253/navjargon.html

StarMetal
12-26-2005, 06:26 PM
Grumble,

Because the main surface that you step onto a ship is part of a ship, thus named the deck. It's actually not a floor because not only is it a surface to walk on, it also is, well, a roof to the area below it. The outer skin of a ship is the hull, although the compartment on the other side of it would call it a bulkhead, but wouldn't calling the hull the wall of the ship sound dumb? Why isn't the fuselage of an airplane called a wall? or a hull? Come on Grumble, you're just nit pickin cause you're bored.

Joe

grumble
12-26-2005, 06:40 PM
Yeah, I'm just pulling your chain, Joe.

Navy doods even call the floora and windows of their office buildings "decks" and "portholes." They get red with rightious indignation when laughed at about it.

Some things make sense, like the 17 names Eskimos have for snow; in that sense, I can understand nautical terms like sheet, line, fore and aft, but I lose interest in terms like starboard, port, and head. The landlubber terms are just fine for those things.

Bet Navy guys have a "secret handshake," too. <GGG>

StarMetal
12-26-2005, 07:02 PM
The one that gets me is for example you take a new job with some big company and the VIP says welcome aboard.....huh... a what...while I'm looking around.

Joe

Reminds me of working at Sun Oil Refinery, the top guy head of Heavy Oils was an ex admiral.....what an SOB and ***.

Joe

StarMetal
12-26-2005, 07:08 PM
How many of your "Swabies" out there remember what a "Sea Bat" is?

Joe

grumble
12-26-2005, 07:10 PM
"Reminds me of working at Sun Oil Refinery, the top guy head of Heavy Oils was an ex admiral.....what an SOB and ***."

HA!! And he was the "head" of the department? <G>

StarMetal
12-26-2005, 07:15 PM
Literally...har har har


Joe

floodgate
12-26-2005, 09:05 PM
Grumble:

" I lose interest in terms like starboard, port, and head. The landlubber terms are just fine for those things."

Ackshully, "port" and "starboard*" make some sense. They are ALWAYS relative to the ship itself, whereas "left" and "right" depend which way you are facing. Imagine the Skipper facing the back ("stern") of the ship, with you as helmsman facing forward; if he said "steer left", which way would you turn the wheel - his "left" or yours?

floodgate

*PS, "Starboard" comes from the old days, before about 1500, when ships (boats?) were steered with a long oar on the right side near the back (the steersman's "strong side"). When parking ("docking"), you always brought the left ("port") side of the hull against the pier so as not to foul the steering oar. I sorta fell into that way of speaking after 19 years as a civilian "sand-crab" at China Lake. fG

StarMetal
12-26-2005, 09:42 PM
They taught us an easy way to remember port and starboard. Port was for the shorter word left and starboard for the longer word right.

Joe

45nut
12-26-2005, 09:55 PM
*PS, "Starboard" comes from the old days, before about 1500, when ships (boats?) were steered with a long oar on the right side near the back (the steersman's "strong side"). When parking ("docking"), you always brought the left ("port") side of the hull against the pier so as not to foul the steering oar. I sorta fell into that way of speaking after 19 years as a civilian "sand-crab" at China Lake. fG

As usual,Learning something here from Doug.

waksupi
12-27-2005, 12:01 AM
The Navy is a mighty force...their nuke subs alone could devastate the world. I'd say most the aircraft that did sorties in both Iraqi's war were naval. The Navy coupled with the Marines are one kick ass military force.

Joe

Maybe one of you guys can tell me. Why do we even have land based nukes? The highly maneuverable, "We hide with Pride" guys, have all the nuclear firepower we need. Why the land based targets scattered through the country? To draw fire?

Scrounger
12-27-2005, 12:19 AM
How many of your "Swabies" out there remember what a "Sea Bat" is?

Joe


Related to a snipe, isn't it?

StarMetal
12-27-2005, 12:22 AM
Art,

NO

Joe

Scrounger
12-27-2005, 12:33 AM
By that, I meant it's tricking someone into looking for something that isn't there...

carpetman
12-27-2005, 12:40 AM
I remember it as The boat LEFT Port and port wine is red(Thats how I know red light on left and thats port).

StarMetal
12-27-2005, 12:42 AM
Art,

Then yes, kinda.

Joe

omgb
12-27-2005, 12:48 AM
Land based nukes were part of the nuclear triad adopted under the 1950s doctrine of "Massive Retaliation". The basic theory was that if we made atomic war costly enough, the Russians would never start anything. The stategy was to use intercontenental bombers stationed at "fail-safe" orbits just outside of Soviet airspace. In the event of nuclear war, these would be ordered into Soviet airspace and would strike pre-selected targets. Simultaneously, ICBMs would be launched. The bombers were a first line of defense and could be recalled. ICBMs were a secondary threat and could not be either recalled nor stopped once launched. It took about 19 minutes from the farthes ICBM silo to its target in the USSR. Some were much closer and the time to target was less; on the order of 12-15 minutes. Later, the sea launched missile was adopted. The ops plan called for subs to surface up to 3 months after the initial exchange and to finish off any remaining targets. This last part was adopted after the Cuban Missile crisis. It was then that MacNamera presented the US with the M.A.D. doctrine, which stood for mutually assured destruction. The idea was that if atomic war were unwinnable, it would never be fought. For over 30 years, a fleet of B52 bombers was aloft 24/7/365 circling at fail-safe points. On the ground, entire alert crews were housed in underground facilities ready to "scramble" in the event of a Soviet penetration of US airspace. At sea, subs prowled ready to administer the nuclear coup-de-grace if the first two legs of the triad did not succeed. I was part of all of this from 1974-1981. I was a weather observer/briefer AFSC 25150 assigend to 24th NORAD Hq. at Malstrom AFB in MT. I also went up to the D.E.W. Line (Distant Early Warning) and provided weather support to our northern most radar and intercept sites north of the acrtic circle. These were scary times and pretty lonely times too. We waited, watched and practiced. I hesitate to imagine what this all cost in fuel, wages, material etc. The public generally doesn't know this but the space program was actually part of this. Up front, it was to bolster American pride. In the background it was to humiliate the Russians by surpassing their technology. It was also designed to test the ability and effectiveness of using nukes in outer-space. The spy satelite program as well as the ICBM program all came out of NSC 69 and the National Defense Act of 1959. Shoot, the National Highway Act that created the interstate highway system was also part of this whole plan.

R J Talley

omgb
12-27-2005, 01:00 AM
I should also add that land based nukes carry bigger payloads farther distances and are less vulnerable to Soviet attack than subs. LBICBMs can carry MIRVS (multiple independantly targeted reentry vehicles) that permit up to 10 or 15 warheads per missile. Under SALT I which limited the number of missiles a nation could have, MIRVS were a key work-around. In the late 50s and up to the mid 70s, Soviet missiles were notoriously inaccurate. Hardened silos required a direct hit to knock them out. This was something the Ruskies couldn't do until the very end of the Cold War. We however, could target down to a few feet. The GPS system that is in use today is primarily for this purpose. Subs have their place but their range is limited to maybe 5 or 6 thousand miles (half that in the early 60s) making some targets deep within the former USSR and China untouchable except by LBICBMs.

R J Talley

felix
12-27-2005, 01:32 AM
The Dew Line and the BMEWS project. I was associated with the latter being asked to help convert 7094s (mainframes) into real-time trackers of UFO's (warheads) as differentiated from flack (birds, rocks, planes, etc.). RCA was the contractor at the time, and I was going to be stationed around Fairbanks. Pat was not allowed to come with me at the time, so I had to decline the offer. I was really tempted, though, because of the excitement of the application. ... felix

omgb
12-27-2005, 03:42 AM
RCA AlasCom was a major contractor up there in the 60s and 70s. The White Alice communications system was RCA operated and maintained. They also handled the MARs system. Those were romantic times. I loved every minute of it and wouldn't trade it for anything. Imagine being 20 and living 100s of miles from civilization. Standing in the middle of an old gold rush mining camp and watching the northern lights dance across the sky. I felt like I had stepped into a time void. There are a load of those old sites remaining although they are abandoned now. Most of the CONUS sites had to be restored but out on the Greeland ice shelf they just closed the door and walked away leaving them fully provisioned but devoid of classified material.

Frank46
12-27-2005, 04:07 AM
Frank46

That time period you mentioned is exactly the same time period I saw it in Norfolk.

Joe
Starmetal, hey give me a break, we're talking about almost 40 years ago and the brain cells ain't as young as they used to be. All kidding aside I saw pictures of the Franklin and its a tribute to the men on board that ship that they were able to bring her back home. A sea bat??, ok here goes you get a bunch of guys standing around peering into a bucket. Some dummy comes along and asks whats going on. The answer is looking at a sea bat. When he peers into the bucket one of the group whacks him in the butt with a mop. First and only time he falls for that one.
Ever cross the equator and go from pollywog to shellback??. Did that at least three times during the westpac cruise 66-67. Navy haze grey and underway!!!!!!
Frank

StarMetal
12-27-2005, 10:16 AM
Frank46

You nailed it, except we used a produce box with holes in it and whacked them with a broom.

Joe

grumble
12-27-2005, 11:46 AM
Grumble:

" I lose interest in terms like starboard, port, and head. The landlubber terms are just fine for those things."

Ackshully, "port" and "starboard*" make some sense. They are ALWAYS relative to the ship itself, whereas "left" and "right" depend which way you are facing. Imagine the Skipper facing the back ("stern") of the ship, with you as helmsman facing forward; if he said "steer left", which way would you turn the wheel - his "left" or yours?

floodgate

*PS, "Starboard" comes from the old days, before about 1500, when ships (boats?) were steered with a long oar on the right side near the back (the steersman's "strong side"). When parking ("docking"), you always brought the left ("port") side of the hull against the pier so as not to foul the steering oar. I sorta fell into that way of speaking after 19 years as a civilian "sand-crab" at China Lake. fG

Have to chuckle a bit, floodgate -- couldn't help but notice you were talking about the right and left side of the boat instead of starboard and port. No confusion when you take your car to the tire shop and tell the guy you have a leak in your left front tire, is there? <GGG>

Easy enough to remember the terms, though, there are two "R's" in starboard. Same for channel and harbor lights, easy enough to remember, "red right return." So, even the little memory tricks relate the port and starboard terms to landlubber lingo. Would be a LOT easier to just use "left" and "right" to begin with. Holding on to old terms just for the sake of tradition doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and could actually cause problems because of confusion or delays in responding to instructions.

StarMetal
12-27-2005, 12:00 PM
Starboard
The Vikings called the side of their ship its board, and they placed the steering oar, the "star" on the right side of the ship, thus that side became known as the "star board." It's been that way ever since. And, because the oar was in the right side, the ship was tied to the dock at the left side. This was known as the loading side or "larboard". Later, it was decided that "larboard" and "starboard" were too similar, especially when trying to be heard over the roar of a heavy sea, so the phrase became the "side at which you tied up to in port" or the "port" side.

StarMetal
12-27-2005, 12:02 PM
Port holes
The word "port hole" originated during the reign of Henry VI of England (1485). King Henry insisted on mounting guns too large for his ship and the traditional methods of securing these weapons on the forecastle and aftcastle could not be used. A French shipbuilder named James Baker was commissioned to solve the problem. He put small doors in the side of the ship and mounted the cannon inside the ship. These doors protected the cannon from weather and were opened when the cannon were to be used. The French word for "door" is "porte" which was later Anglicized to "port" and later went on to mean any opening in the ship's side, whether for cannon or not.

grumble
12-27-2005, 12:03 PM
Waksupi, one of the key reasons for a land-based ICBM force was positive communication. When the first "boomers" (Nuke ICBM subs) came out, the "ELF" (extremely low frequency) communications needed to transmit launch and targeting orders wasn't completely reliable. Further, if a boomer were to be destroyed in wartime, the war planners might not know about it, and wouldn't know if a particular set of targets were under attack. A land based ICBM force would be able to communicate its status in any event.

The MAD (mutually assured destruction) concept of war fighting followed when the Soviets caught up to us in their nuclear capabilities. The idea was to launch multiple warheads against high value targets, enough to "make the rubble bounce."

Truth be told, I'd bet that the REAL reason for land, sea, and air nuke forces was as much to do with interservice rivalry as anything else. Gen Curtis E LeMay was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time of the buildup, and tried to direct all nuke forces to the Air Force. The Navy saw themselves being left behind in the mission and funding battles, and lobbied Congress heavily for their "share" of the defense pie. The result was the Triad, where everyone got lotsa money and missions. Heh, heh, everyone except the Marines, that is. <GGG>

StarMetal
12-27-2005, 12:03 PM
Mayday
"Mayday" is the internationally recognized voice radio signal for ships and people in serious trouble at sea. Made official in 1948, it is an anglicizing of the French m'aidez, "help me".

StarMetal
12-27-2005, 12:04 PM
Head
The "head" aboard a Navy ship is the bathroom. The term comes from the days of sailing ships when the place for the crew to relieve themselves was all the way forward on either side of the bowsprit, the integral part of the hull to which the figurehead was fastened.

StarMetal
12-27-2005, 12:05 PM
Crow's Nest
The raven, or crow, was an essential part of the Vikings' navigation equipment. These land-lubbing birds were carried on aboard to help the ship's navigator determine where the closest land lay when weather prevented sighting the shore. In cases of poor visibility, a crow was released and the navigator plotted a course corresponding to the bird's flight path because the crow invariably headed towards land.

The Norsemen carried the birds in a cage secured to the top of the mast. Later on, as ships grew and the lookout stood his watch in a tub located high on the main mast, the name "crow's nest" was given to this tub. While today's Navy still uses lookouts in addition to radars, etc., the crow's nest is a thing of the past.

StarMetal
12-27-2005, 12:06 PM
So you see Grumble, there are reasons for all those Nautical terms.

Joe

grumble
12-27-2005, 02:03 PM
So you see Grumble, there are reasons for all those Nautical terms.

Joe

Joe, no, there WERE reasons for those names. Not anymore. <GGG>

StarMetal
12-27-2005, 02:08 PM
Well not some of them, like the crows nest, radar and other sophisticated equipment replaced the man up and crow up there. But at least they explain why left and right are port and starboard.

Joe

grumble
12-27-2005, 02:30 PM
.... But at least they explain why left and right are port and starboard.

Joe

There ya go again! Nope, it explains why left and right USED to be port and starboard. No reason for it today, except maybe nautical people can't adapt to modern times? To repeat, "the Navy is 200 years of tradition, unimpeded by progress." <GGG>

StarMetal
12-27-2005, 02:36 PM
Grumble,

Where you in the military. Well I guess if we get rid of all the tradition for all the branches then there will not be any saluting, they can just said "Hi" or "Hello" or "Hey, Dude" and will end up with a bunch of disrepectful brats like all the schools in this country is full of and why teachers and parents have so many problems with kids today. Whew! long sentence. You wear your wedding band on the finger on the left hand next to the small one? You wear your watch on the left wrist? You drive on the right side of the road? Come on Grumble, you follow alot of traditions and don't even know it.

Joe

Roudy
12-27-2005, 03:35 PM
Marines ARE grateful when the Army arrives! All that fightin makes a Leatherneck hot and tired. When the Army arrives they bring beer, soda pop and 'pogy bait'.....and we're grateful for it! Just have to make sure the area is 'pacified' first so the Army will bring up the goods.

grumble
12-27-2005, 03:39 PM
Yep, I wore a uniform for a while. Some traditions still make sense because they relate to good order and discipline, and they remind other wearers of the uniform that they are dedicated to a higher cause. I don't see how "portholes" and "decks" in modern buildings relate to that purpose, though. Heh-heh, or port and starboard, for that matter. <GGG>

I guess if a Navy building has a radio tower on top, it's called a mizzenmast? I've noticed that the Army and Air Force pretty much update their terminology to reflect progress -- rarely hear of cassions or aerodromes these days.

I hope you realize I'm just pulling your chain, don't you? I noticed that Bret dropped out as soon as he saw the direction this was going. <GGG>

Scrounger
12-27-2005, 04:01 PM
Yep, I wore a uniform for a while. Some traditions still make sense because they relate to good order and discipline, and they remind other wearers of the uniform that they are dedicated to a higher cause. I don't see how "portholes" and "decks" in modern buildings relate to that purpose, though. Heh-heh, or port and starboard, for that matter. <GGG>

I guess if a Navy building has a radio tower on top, it's called a mizzenmast? I've noticed that the Army and Air Force pretty much update their terminology to reflect progress -- rarely hear of cassions or aerodromes these days.

I hope you realize I'm just pulling your chain, don't you? I noticed that Bret dropped out as soon as he saw the direction this was going. <GGG>

Along those lines, the British Navy name their land-located posts and headquarters as if they were ships, that is "HMS Mayfair" or whatever... Can you imagine USS China Lake?

StarMetal
12-27-2005, 04:21 PM
Gosh...you mean you didn't know I was pulling your chain also? har har har.

Now I still do this one at home when wife says the floor needs vacuum (and the Navy boys will remember this). First I do an imitation of the boatswains whistle, followed by the annoucement "Sweeper sweepers, man your brooms...give the ship a clean sweepdown fore and aft, sweeping all passageways and behind all ladders , and empty all trash recepticles on the pier...Sweepers"

She laughs.

Joe

grumble
12-27-2005, 05:06 PM
Long time ago, I took a trip on a Navy transport ship and remember all those whistles and announcements. One in particular, the announcer said, "and don't throw no trash over the fantail." We non-Navy types got a kick out of that. Navy folks prolly didn't see the humor.

Scrounger, it wouldn't work to name US Navy bases like ships. Nobody would know where fore and aft were, much less port or starboard. Sailors couldn't march to work; can you imagine? "Hut, hut, to the starboard march; to the aft, march; by the port, march; by the starboard flank and double to the rear, harch." Those sailors would end up in Boise, lost and no money in their pockets. They couldn't even use jodies: "your girl was home when you left, YOU'RE STARBOARD..."

Bret4207
12-27-2005, 07:38 PM
Hey Grumble, I'm still here, I just enjoy watching the sport from a distance at some times! On tradition- we had a little joke in the USMC ( Starmetal and you Navy types-give me a break 'cuz I never figured "bells" out, jsut bear with me)-

At a big military conference once there was a public anoucement- "All hands be advised, chow will commence as follows- For the Army and Marines at 1700 hours, for the Navy and Coast Guard at 4 bells and for the Air Force when Mickeys little hand is on the 5 and his big hand on the 12!"

There are a lot of traditional words used in the military that don't make much sense these days. Cavalry for instance, where's the horses? Or why do Marines call a hat a "cover" (seems natural to me, but why?") Or the Army still calling their posts "Forts" ( gotta call them something I guess). Or the Air Force calling itself a branch of the MILITARY!! I mean come on, they used to issue P.J.'s in basic training! (Yes, that was a shot, but I'm just joking guys, an Air Force chicky broke my poor ol'Marine heart a long time ago.) When you come down to it why do we still do bayonet practice? Last bayonet charge was in Korea as far as I know. We do it because of tradition and because of the small chance it'll come in handy. Works for me.

On nuc boats and ICBMs- Paul Harvey reported Monday morning that the Rooskys just tested a sea launched ICBM with multiple warheads. Shades of "Red October". Maybe Uncle Ronny Reagan and I didn't finish the cold war after all....

grumble
12-27-2005, 08:28 PM
Bret, yeah, I know eggzactly whatcha mean. I knew some guys in the service that really wanted to join the Corps, but their Armed Forces Qualifying Test (AFQT) scores weren't low enough. Poor guys. A couple of them tried to retake the test, and went in with hangovers, but still, the best they could do was get an offer for the Navy. They both really liked the idea of sea duty, and were hoping they could guard the doors on ships, but they weren't allowed. They both learned "duck and cover" in grade school, just like marines, but they didn't think a baseball cap would protect them from a nuke attack. That IS why Gyrenes call hats "cover," ain't it? How else could you get them to charge into cement walls?

Not having been to Marine Boot Camp, I can't believe everything I've heard, but maybe you can help me out; is it true that recruits have to write a letter home in boot? Do they issue the crayons and that paper with sticks in it to write the letters?

I really admire the Marines, they fulfill a vital need in the military. Everybody needs something to laugh at.

StarMetal
12-27-2005, 08:53 PM
The big sayings in the Navey were "Hurry up and wait" and "Move it up, nuts to butts". One thing, the military made me hate waiting and today I will not wait for many things.

I do think that everyone should have to do military service because I've noticed a better difference between those men that did then the ones that didn't. It does something to you and builds some kind of moral fiber.

Here's a funny one when we were in port all the time. They have this civilian truck come around each pier that sells snacks, pop, hot dogs etc. They call it the roach coach in the Navy. The announcement comes over the speaker as "Boatswains whistle...The Roach Coach has made it's approach and is on the pier". But one day the announcement went like this: "Whistle......The Roach Coach has made it's approach and is on the pier". "Whistle....Cancel that, the Roach Coach made it's approach and went off the pier!!". Boy what a laugh that was. One thing about the Navy, you always had good chow and a war dry bunk to sleep in. The only thing I can think of that we didn't eat was caviar. We had charcoal broiled steaks to order, lobster, etc. I gained weight in Naval Boot har har har. The ships had color tv's, open coffee, open ice cream locker, and left overs from chow.

Joe

MGySgt
12-27-2005, 08:58 PM
Bret - He was just winding down, now you have him wound up on us instead of the Swabies, This thread could go one forever!

Drew

Scrounger
12-27-2005, 09:46 PM
I do think that everyone should have to do military service because I've noticed a better difference between those men that did then the ones that didn't. It does something to you and builds some kind of moral fiber.


Joe, I never did service but I would agree with you 100%. I was blessed with good parents and I like to think I learned some discipline and sense of honor from them. But we all see far too many examples of people who did not receive that benefit, and I think the military service used to provide it to those inducted. I endorse the draft but I pray there are no more wars. Or "police actions".

Frank46
12-28-2005, 04:47 AM
Joe, you ever been in naples. We had one small launch that used to come along side to which we would lower the trash cans from the engine, pump and generator rooms. One day one genius decides to try and lower a boiler feed pump shaft that was no good. Well he lost control of the rope and the shaft went down and wound up sticking up out of the poor guy's boat. And "Hong Kong Mary?" They would come on board and at chow we would give them all the trays. The chinese would put the leftover scraps of food in the tins that the coffee came in. And would get any scrap brass or whatever. Then they would be out there on floats painting the hull with the paint the ship gave them. Only took them about a week to do the hull from the waterline up to and including the weatherdecks. Frank

Bret4207
12-28-2005, 05:32 PM
Keep going guys, I love it!!!

On mandatory service- I have always felt everyone, male and female, of ALL races, creeds and colors should have to do some sort of Federal service, either the military or maybe the Forest Service, some Urban Renewal type thing or some form of "service to the nation". 2 years would seem a good initial enlistment. Besides giving all our youngsters a chance to mature before they run off to college and spend Daddys $$ on booze, it would give everyone a common background to share no matter what their background or where they were from. It would get the inner city kids away from "the 'hood" and let the country boys see that city folks aren't totaly useless. Seemed a good idea to me.

StarMetal
12-28-2005, 06:00 PM
Boy, I'm glad I though of it. Guess I should rely this to the next canidate for the presidency. Another thing too if you do the four years active you get those college benefits and the GI bill too, unless they stopped that, which I don't think they have.

Joe

grumble
12-28-2005, 06:02 PM
"...and let the country boys see that city folks aren't totaly useless..."

Huh? You wanna 'splain that? <GGG>

I sure agree with you on the "mandantory national service" idea. Whether it's policing up roadside trash, scraping off graffitti, cleaning bedpans in a hospital, acting as a bookkeeper at a charity, or serving in the military, it would do a LOT of youngsters a LOT of good. And no exemptions other than being too sick to crawl. Mommas with babies and no daddies have to participate, even if just to watch other babies. Minimum wage with a portion going to a personal IRA.

Too bad we don't run the world.

Scrounger
12-28-2005, 06:36 PM
Got some more to say on this subject. Some good ideas in there, Bret. Bring back the CCC. I don't like the way the military is going these days. The numbers cutbacks are so severe that they're only taking the kids who need it least. Yes, we need to keep modern in the Army (and other services) but the stuff I see on The Military Channel and Discovery gives me the impression every soldier is wearing around $20,000 worth of electronics, etc. Highly vulnerable to damage in the field or maybe even enemy interference. An EMP. even without a big explosion to do physical damage, can de-activate all our troops and equiptment. Are they trained or psychologically capable of operating without it? I don't know, maybe I'm worrying needlessly there...
And one more burr... My only military experience is from books and movies, but forty year old sergeants having to train twenty-two year old lieutenants in combat, at the expense of inefficiency and loss of life seemed to be a common problem. Anthony will probably disagree but I think we should shut down West Point as the college it now is. The military should work this way: Universal draft (2 years), those who choose and are acceptable to higher authority are allowed to stay in for a career. Whenever a person (politically correct, I didn't say "man") has attained enough competence at his or her rank, they are promoted to the next one. I don't like the 'get promoted or get out' policy; there are people who are just great at being DIs, or First Sergeants, or company commanders but cannot take that next step. A person who is great at his job is to be cherished and kept, not cast aside because he can't take or doesn't want more responsibility. There are plenty enough who do. Anyway, I would hope they would reach E6 or E7 before their thirties, and then be sent to West Point for a 2 or 3 year course in history and military tactics. That way when they come back as platoon leaders, they are fully qualified and can be so much more effective. For the highly technical specialities and flying, a different path would be needed. I'm sure many will disagree with this sermon and I admit there are lots of holes in it, but it was a burr under my saddle I had to get out.

StarMetal
12-28-2005, 07:11 PM
I don't know about getting the military to do some of that non military stuff. Hell, if we get them to do anything how about policing our southern border. And here's another good one of mine. Under my plan, parents who have conduct disorder children, can send them to Marine boot camp...the official and same one Marines go too. If that doesn't straighten them up nothing is going to. I think in peacetime stuff like this can be done. Hell look how much money the Navy wastes sailing sailors around the globe on paid vacations. So it's about time they serve the country instead of joy riding.

Joe

krag35
12-28-2005, 07:44 PM
Universal draft (2 years), those who choose and are acceptable to higher authority are allowed to stay in for a career. Whenever a person (politically correct, I didn't say "man") has attained enough competence at his or her rank, they are promoted to the next one. I don't like the 'get promoted or get out' policy; there are people who are just great at being DIs, or First Sergeants, or company commanders but cannot take that next step. A person who is great at his job is to be cherished and kept, not cast aside because he can't take or doesn't want more responsibility. There are plenty enough who do. Anyway, I would hope they would reach E6 or E7 before their thirties, and then be sent to West Point for a 2 or 3 year course in history and military tactics. That way when they come back as platoon leaders, they are fully qualified and can be so much more effective.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

The 2 best officers I served under were "mavrick's' enlisted who had gone on to be officers.

krag35

AnthonyB
12-28-2005, 08:10 PM
I run the risk of straying off topic here, but hope the moderators will be tolerant of me... :)
Scrounger brings up some good points and I'll likely miss responding to a few, but here is my best effort. Let me begin with a standard disclaimer; I speak for myself only and do not represent the DoD in any way.
The idea of universal military conscription makes me shudder every time it is raised. National service is fine, but I doubt the folks who would be drafted could handle the physical and mental challenges our Soldiers, Marines, Airmen, and Sailors experience every day. These folks stay because they WANT to stay. IMO, we are blessed to have a military made of men and women who want to serve instead of those just passing time until they can get out, and the draft would be a giant step backwards. Some of our retired 1SGs and SGMs may weigh in on this one, but the most effective threat I had as a battery commander was to tell a soldier he ran the risk of being chaptered out. Those who didn't want to be in the Army left, sometimes with a lot of effort on the part of the chain of command, but I bet the NCOs who experienced both the draft and volunteer Army far preferred the volunteer years.
As for the electronics issue, I have all the gear issued me for my upcoming trip to Iraq spread out in the living room. The major change since my battery command days is the body armor. A REMF like me now rates the best armor, to include front and rear SAPI (Small Arms Protective Insert) plates, while I am still CONUS! No shortage of body armor here now, despite what the media may say. There are no electrons anywhere, just good, common sense gear. The major advancement for the average soldier is the optical sight for the M16/M4, and I don't have enough experience with them to comment. I do know that Soldiers, and especially Marines, are taught that THEY are the weapons and the rest is just equipment to be used as needed. A sharpened e-tool is still as good a CQB weapon as it has always been.
IMO, West Point continues to adapt and still produces outstanding leaders for the Army, as do all the academies for their Services. I was teaching a class of plebes on 9/11, and will never forget the look on their faces when they realized that their careers would likely be far different from mine. LTs are still being trained by sergeants, as they have always been, but the LTs realize that their trainers are combat veterans three or four tours over. Finding an NCO who had served in combat was rare when I was a LT; LTs now lead platoons with privates and squad leaders who have survived multiple combat tours. I can only imagine how good they will be as battalion commanders in fifteen years, and wonder how they will compare with today's battalion commanders, who like me, have limited combat experience.
The academies all have great programs to bring enlisted soldiers into the officer corps, and I agree they should be expanded. However, I don't agree that prior enlisted time should be a requirement for admission. Just as businesses don’t want engineers trained only at MIT working for them, diverse experiences bring added benefits to the organization.
I hope my respect for members of the other Services is apparent in the way I worded the post. We are working more closely now that ever before, and what were once bitter rivalries no longer seem very important. Of course, we still give the Marines hell for being dumb and the flyboys hell for being flyboys, but the rhetoric has been greatly toned down in recent years.
Tony

StarMetal
12-28-2005, 09:39 PM
Anthony,

I disagree with you. Remember there were alot of draftees in all the wars our country have been in that didn't want to go, and yes along with volunteers. They done a fine job I think. A high percentage adapted. Don't sell this new generation short, after all they are the future of our country. I'm sure the adults said the same thing about our generation when we were young. I'll say one thing, the military wasn't short of men when there was a draft. Just like shaking the apple tree to get apples, most of them are good and you get a few bad ones. Don't forget too the ones that do leave can be called back up and they are pretty much pre trained. I also don't think the rivalry between the branches any different then it was before. It's just like football teams, my team is better then yours, all in fun and no harm done. When the going got tought they all pulled together.

Joe

45nut
12-28-2005, 09:42 PM
That is a great post,you did quite well and certainly crossed no lines.

I do think that military experience in 95% of the volunteer corps enhances the chances for success after serving,the other 5% could be splintered farther but Darwin only awards the non surviving of that number. Conscripts serve with a fear instead of pride and tend not to thrive I would imagine as opposed to the volunteers.
I do meet younger folks and the thought crosses my mind often,,"that guy sure needs a couple years in service".
my .02

Scrounger
12-28-2005, 09:47 PM
That is a great post,you did quite well and certainly crossed no lines.

I do think that military experience in 95% of the volunteer corps enhances the chances for success after serving,the other 5% could be splintered farther but Darwin only awards the non surviving of that number. Conscripts serve with a fear instead of pride and tend not to thrive I would imagine as opposed to the volunteers.
I do meet younger folks and the thought crosses my mind often,,"that guy sure needs a couple years in service".
my .02

Another benefit would be a trained (of sorts) reserve in case of emergency. Our present reserve is very expensive and many are in it just for the money. Did any of you see the cable series "Off To War", about a unit from the Arkansas National Guard? Many of them certainly had that atitude, I felt.

AnthonyB
12-28-2005, 10:50 PM
Joe said:
I disagree with you. Remember there were alot of draftees in all the wars our country have been in that didn't want to go, and yes along with volunteers. They done a fine job I think.

No disagreement at all. I think our forefathers deserve far more credit than we commonly give them.

Joe said:
A high percentage adapted. Don't sell this new generation short, after all they are the future of our country.

I'm not selling this generation short at all. They are VOLUNTEERING, not being drafted, to serve in a very technically challenging military that requires far more discipline of them than was expected during the draft. My point was that a volunteer will almost always have a better attitude and perform better than a conscript. Ask the senior NCOs their opinion.

Joe said:
I'll say one thing, the military wasn't short of men when there was a draft.

We aren't short people now. Congress mandates the size of the Army, and we are temporarily above the mandated maximum. Don't believe all the hype you see in the media about recruiting; we are doing pretty well given current circumstances, and retention continues to surpass goals. That we can continue to fill the Army with volunteers only strengthens my argument.

Joe said:
Just like shaking the apple tree to get apples, most of them are good and you get a few bad ones.

As a commander, I spent 90% of my time dealing with the 10% who were the bad ones, and that was in an all-volunteer force. What would the percentage of bad ones be if we had a draft? I'd hate to guess. Again, I say ask the NCOs.

Joe said:
Don't forget too the ones that do leave can be called back up and they are pretty much pre trained.

They may be trained in the basics but can't begin to keep up in the technical MOSs. As I stated in my earlier post, individual equipment has changed very little since I was a battery commander but I wouldn't recognize the new AFATADS system that replaced the BCS. A 17-year old computer geek can be trained for most tasks far more quickly than a fifteen-year NCO with no computer skills. I don't mean to denigrate our forefather's service or sacrifice at all, but the nature of warfare has changed since WWII/Korea.

Joe said:
I also don't think the rivalry between the branches any different then it was before. It's just like football teams, my team is better then yours, all in fun and no harm done. When the going got tought they all pulled together.

The team distinction has faded. The concept of "jointness" that began with Goldwater-Nichols has culminated in AF foward air controllers in Army battalions attached to Marine Divisions as part of a Multi-National Corps Headquarters. We are beginning to understand that we all fight on the same side, no matter the uniform. The Service BS is far more muted than it was when I was commissioned.

Again, these are my opinions only. You are free to disagree if you choose, but you would be wrong :)
Tony

StarMetal
12-28-2005, 11:34 PM
Oh that's nice, I'd be wrong...you sound like Bass Ackwards now. hahahahaha. I wasn't talking about selling the volunteers short I was speaking of the whole generation. This country or world isn't going to come to a halting stop because of all the no account younger generations that exist at the moment.

From what I've heard, at a few month back, that the Army was behind on enlistment numbers. I figured it was because of the current war going on and nobody wanted to enlist and get sent over there. The Navy and Air Force I heard was turning them away.

I still hold firm that the draft would be good. It would turn alot of those nobodies into somebodies and probably alot of the real no accounts would leave for Canada like they did when Nam was going on.

You're looking at it from a training and expert soldier position, and alot of us are looking at it as a good experience for a young man or woman. There's nothing wrong with doing your time in and wanting to get out, after all the military isn't everyones piece of cake.

Joe

Buckshot
12-29-2005, 03:45 AM
...............Hatches go through decks, doors go through bulkheads.

................Buckshot

Frank46
12-29-2005, 04:48 AM
I was 17 when I enlisted in the navy. Dad had to come down to the recruiter's to sign the enlistment papers. Was a whole new world for me. And I think that in my experiences I turned out ok. For one thing people at work treated you with a certain amount of respect that was not shown to other new hires at the same job. And just about all the vets kinda stuck together and watched out for each other. It didn't matter if you were army, navy, marine or whatever. But Since I trained and operated steam driven equipment in the navy the transition to operating similar equipment in a generating station and tank farm was a snap compared to non service personnel who basically started from scratch. In fact the company I worked for preferred ex service personnel who had operated that type of equipment. I spent over 30 years working, operating, and repairing steam driven equipment. I look at some of the younger generation and really wonder just what life has in store for them. I would be in favor of the draft as I feel that service just might well give them some sense of responsibility, purpose and direction, and not to mention maturity. Frank

StarMetal
12-29-2005, 12:20 PM
Buckshot,

Hatch – An opening or door on a ship, either vertical or horizontal.



Joe

MGySgt
12-29-2005, 04:32 PM
Tony (AnthonyB) keeps saying ask the senior NCOs', I wonder if he is pointing at me :>).

Tony - First off keep your head and butt down while you are over there, we want to see you back here in one piece, not with a hole in your butt! If you need something send me an e-mail and I will get it for you, but I think Blondes, Brunetts and Redheads are out - they don't like getting into those boxes for the long trip!

I have been reading through this thread for the last couple of days and some of the 'Thoughts' by some are not unlike what our elected officials thought a long time ago - Put them in the service they will turn out ok or The Marines will make men out of them!

I spent 26 years on active duty and seen the 'Draft era' and the all volunteer era. Todays young hard chargers are so much more then the young ones of yester year. They are mentally and physically tougher then we were at that stage of our life and so much smarter.

Draft - Forced Service - Not only No but Hell NO. All branchs are ataining there retention goals, more or less, they had the same problems with retention in the 80's and 90's that they are having today. Certain times of the year the recruitment numbers are down, like the winter months when everyone is in school. They pick up the ones then that thought the were going to graduate and get a 100 grand a year job and they are flipping burgers at one of the fast food places, good people, but just haven't gotten the break yet.

I spent a lot of time with my 10% folks too, even in an all volunteer force (by the way the Marines drafted also, a good friend of mine is a retired MGySgt that was drafted in 69). But we always spend 90% of our time with the bottom 10%, because we want to make them better, or have fewer problems, most of them can be saved if the don't get you or some of your other troops killed in the process.

Tradition, History, Customs, and Courtesies - That is what sets us all apart as a group from another group. The Marines thrive on it and it does make us better. Boot Camp teaches all the recruits what the Corps is all about, who did what, where we earned our battle streamers, what battles we fought in, what we did right and what we did wrong. We teach the wrong so we don't make that mistake again - hopefully.

All institutions thrive on their history, that is what sets them apart - Harvard, Yale, Notra Damn (wish I could spell), etc.. It makes us better at what we do and it instills pride in us and our brothjers and sisters that have gone before us and will go after us.

Sea farring language - has a place and is needed Port Starboard - if you have ever been in an emergency on a ship and the loud speakers sound abandon ship on the Port side, I don't think you want to go to the starboard side - Port and Starboard are always a specific side of the ship and you don't have to think about them, Heads, Deck, Bulkheads, etc - Live with it!

Rivialery between the branches - It will always be there. Each service wants to be the best - but we all have our unique mission. The Marines being the smallest and normally the first branch to Land someplace had to ensure that 'Every Marine is a Rifleman (or woman now). Every Marine in the rank of Pvt through Gunnery Sergeant (E1-E7) is required to qualify annually with the service rifle, and take the essential subjects test. The essential subjects test is Small Unit Tactics, Weapons, NBC, First Aid.
Every Senior Enlisted (E-8 and E-9) are required to qualify with the sidearm, and we teach the essential subjects.
There is the Staff NCO Academy where Staff Sergeant attend, more tactics, more history customs and traditions, but how to teach them to the younger Marines. HJow to conduct Physical Fitness sessions, good nutrition. Making lession plans for training, conducting parades, etc, What is new comiong down from HQMC. First Sergeants and Master Sergeants (E-8) attend the next level much of the same, but more intense.
Sergeants Major and Master Gunnery Sergeants (E-9) attend a sysmposium and can attend every year if the command will fund the travel. What is new and what is going out, what can we do to make the Corps better!

God this is getting long - But Tony you asked for it.

The Army, Air Force and Navy are learning (or re-learning) that what the Marines have done all along is pretty good stuff. All that go to a Combat zone need basic skills, the basic skills of a War Fighter. They are all doing it NOW. I am not going to get into the 577th supply convoy issue, I read the Official Army report on it, not pretty for that unit or unit commander.

Enough - I will get off my Soap Box

Drew

StarMetal
12-29-2005, 05:06 PM
Drew,

What do you mean by: The Army, Air Force and Navy are learning (or re-learning) that what the Marines have done all along is pretty good stuff. All that go to a Combat zone need basic skills, the basic skills of a War Fighter. They are all doing it NOW.

Are you saying for example the other three branches need to know riflery, basic ground maneuvers or what? What basic skills?

You know the branches all have their own special outfits. Take for example the Navy Seals. They are definately not your average Boatswainmate. With that said the basis skills the average sailor needs they get, or use to get. That mainly was fighting fires and survial at sea...then they get their specific training for the job they are put into. What the heck else they need to get? They sure as darn don't need Marine training. Their jobs, mainly, will be aboard a ship or sub. Ditto for the Air Force...their jobs are planes. Now I'll admit the Army should be closer to resembling the Marines then the other two branches.

This is going to start a battle here, but I"m going to say it. The Marines , for all the good things they teach a Marine, teach him one thing I think is bad. Actually this a combination of things to make one big thing. That is Marines are big headed, think they are better, and think they can kick anyone's ass in another branch of the service or whatever walk of life they may be from. They are full of so much Bravo it's funny. While I was in the Navy, I paid attention to alot of stuff. One was fights that went on in bars. Being back then and maybe now, the Navy and Marines didn't get along, so if they were both in the bar at the same time sure enough I fight broke out. From my 4 yrs in the Navy I'll have to say that 8 out of 10 time in a fight between a Swabie and a Jarhead, the Swabie come out on top. So much for Marines being better and tougher. Here's an example of the Bravo. While at an airport to catch a plane back to my base and ship I was watching a Marine standing in line. Like me he had his full seabag, which isn't exactly light. Well instead of sitting on the bag waiting in the long line, the Marine had to hold it atop his shoulder the whole wait. What a *******.

Okay all you Jarheads out there, let it fly har har har.

Joe

sundog
12-29-2005, 05:10 PM
Attitude counts for alot. One sure way to ruin it is have your soldiers paint rocks on the company street. They have to be challenged and know the mission and what part of it is theirs. And you have to listen to them and you have to give them opportunities to excel. Not a doubt in my mind that what grew out of the years after Vietnam is the greatest army ever known to mankind. I salute them. sundog

almost forgot: Tony, you got a bunch of gear, I know, I had to help my sister when she left. Gave her a present before she departed - a roll of duct tape. Never go to a combat zone without a roll of duct tape.

Bret4207
12-29-2005, 06:13 PM
Joe- Don't think of Marines as big headed or stuck up. It's more a matter of the Navy not challenging it's recruits enough in boot camp to give them a sense of accomplishment that would give them any pride in themselves. So instead of presenting themselves in an professional and dignified manner they would instead slouch around, sitting on a sea bag looking like any bum in a bus station. You asked for that. (HAR!)

Yup, there's always somebody who can kick your butt someplace. Even some sailors can do it. So what? I saw lots of fights and the results were pretty even all around. Has nothing to do with the branch. It has to do with who opens his yap and starts something. Who finishes is always up for grabs. The drunker one usually looses.

As for the basic skills the Top was talking about, I agree. Sending an untrained guy into combat is just wrong. The idea of the second line guys being out of danger and letting them go untrained resulted in incidents like the Army chick who got her Silver Star for getting bunged up in a car accident while running away from a fight and leaving her buddies behind to die. Jessica something I think. The press made her a hero. She was a victim at best. At least IMHO. She didn't deserve a Silver Star for it. Teach all the people going into a combat theatre the basic skills required to survive. Don't assume they be in the rear so they don't need training. On Guadal Canal I think it was, a Marine commander held off a Japanese attack with the cooks, bakers, clerks and musicians when all the other guys were off in another area or wounded. All the Marines had the basic skills needed to function as rifleman and kicked some butt. Thats the basic skills everyone should have. Depending on distance and luck to keep you safe won't always work. Incidentally, the Marines were left on Guadal Canal with only half their gear and hardly any food when Navy Admiral "Fearless Frank" Fletcher bugged out with his boats. And folks wonder why some Marines have a less than stellar opinion of some, not all, Navy types.

Re- mandatory service: As I mentioned earlier I think it's a good idea. But, I qualify that by saying there should be a variety of postions available. The Forest Servcie for example would appeal to some people and I'm sure there are trails that need building somewhere. Same type of thing for any number of other vocations. I wouldn't limit it to just the military for sure. Some folks just aren't cut out the military. But having everyone serve their country in some form would be a base for everyone to work from.

StarMetal
12-29-2005, 07:22 PM
Tpr Bret,

Well, maybe it's time for a unified military branch. No more Navy, Air Force, Army, Marines, and Coast Guard. Make it one..don't know what you would call it though. They all go throught the same basics and training. Of course they would be equipped with those pocket folding chairs so when they have to wait in line somewhere they can sit dignified rather then a slouched bum. Of course you know that incident was during Vietnam and the public could care less about the military how dignified a hated baby killer waited in line. They'd much rather come over and spit on us back then. I use the baby killer in reference to what we were thought of, not saying we were. I still say the Marine was a macho *******.

Now before you go and think I hate the Marines, which I do not, I just watched the battle of Guadal Canal again on history channel today a few hours before posting. I have to admire those poor Marines that got left with no food and ammo and how they amazingly defeated an overwhelming force. One of those flags in my pc room is from my best friends Dad who was a Marine in WWII did the whole south pacific and he was a hero in my eyes and I repected him and loved him in the remainder of his days here on earth. I'll have to say one thing about him...never heard Marine nothing out of him, or how bad the Swabies where...or even the Corp. He was a good quient Marine.

I have to add the Marines always brag about being first into battle. Yeah, and the Navy brings them there.

Joe

felix
12-29-2005, 07:32 PM
Nowadays, it is hard to say what military branch has what, isn't? I'm in Tony's camp in that folks should be assigned duties where they excell in terms of brains and brawn. Some of us are only good as secretaries, and we should be allowed to serve where needed not depending on which branch of service. I think there should be pools of folks with no military training per se, but readily available. Need a mechanic for airplanes today? American Airlines has quite a few and why not tap one of those guys for 6 months duty? ... felix

MGySgt
12-29-2005, 07:34 PM
Joe - In Iraq there are no front lines! The whole country is a Kill Zone. My Son-in-law, bless his little heart, is a Sea Bee PO2. Now do you think he needs Basic Combat Skills? When he waltzed into Bhagdad with the 1st Marine Division he sure as hell did! The Air port in Bhagdad - How many times as it been hit? Who guards it - The Air Force. What about the Air Force guys that are do Forward Observer Duty for their planes? Who Guards the Air Fields? Who guards their supplies (AvGas, parts, etc)? They are all in the Kill Zone!

Navy is in Country more then just as a handfull and they are not on ships. Who guards the Oil platforms? Navy.

During WWII and Korea the supply lines often got ambushed, don't you think the Drivers wanted some combat type training. They were getting it when the Generals finally figured out that they needed. And stopped it after the conflict was over. The REMFs in Nam didn't get it, a friend of mine was DRAFTED and sent over there, he was an Admin type and never left the compund his entire tour in country!

In todays types of war there are no front lines or rear areas. Everyone needs basic Warrior Skills - Small Unit tactics, Weapons, Map Reading and Compass, NBC, First Aid - If they don't get it they die - It is just that simple.

Today - The Army, Air Force and Navy are instituting some of this training in their boot camps and during the work up before the unit goes over there. There are training areas set up just for them, by their own branch!

Everyone is scrambling to ensure that our people are properly prepared to go. These skills need to be taught and re-enforced on a regular basis they are not learned over night (or in a 30 or 60 day workup).

Read the papers and see what is happening over there. Women are going on the patrols - they are needed to search the local women to help eliminate the stress of the general population.

Yes - We the Marines are a proud bunch of p@#$%^, but we earned that right the hard way. We made our mistakes and learned from them, some we learned 2 or 3 times - Snipers is one case in point, we stoppped training that after every conflict until Nam. Then Capt Lamb and Gunny Hathcock got the powers to be to start a Sniper School at Quantico.

By the way the acronim SNAFU came from the Canal after the Navy Ships steamed away with half of the gear in the first message out!

Drew

Bret4207
12-29-2005, 07:37 PM
Yes the Navy brings the Marines to the fight. Then they stay politely out of the way while the Marines take the beach and (with God and Chesty watching over them) destroy the enemy.

Canada has tried the unified force concept. Like their health care sytem, it hasn't worked quite the way they hoped. But, with a Liberal Gov't running their country that makes our liberals look like arch-conservatives what would you expect. Sad state of affairs as the Commonwealth forces covered themselves in glory throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. Now Canada is down to more or less depending on the US ( no disrespect to the Canadian Forces) for military security. Sad, sad.

Scrounger
12-29-2005, 07:38 PM
I think most of us are looking at what the training does for the individual, and what the army gets out of it is secondary. Naturally enough, Tony is looking at it from the inside and quite naturally would prefer committed, Gung Ho (please forgive Marine expression, Tony) volunteers. There should be room for both, the career minded volunteers AND the draftee serving as insurance and getting some good training in life. I'd be all in favor for more money to the military if it could be used for this purpose. It makes more sense to me to use it for that rather than spend it on them for prisons and welfare...

StarMetal
12-29-2005, 07:48 PM
Tpr Bret,

Yes the Navy brings them and then stays out of the way except for air support and stuff. But I tell you, I had somd friends that did duty in Nam and they told me that alot of sailors that were land based for whatever amount of time got bored and went out on missions with them. They said particularly the Seabees. They said they done good too. Someone has to bring the Marines, you sure as heck can't take yourselfs and park hahaha park, your ships and go fight and then go back to your ships. It's not that the Navy doesn't want to, it's their job that holds them back. Now the Navy pilots, they sure mix it up pretty good.

Joe

StarMetal
12-29-2005, 07:57 PM
Drew,

If you're referring to the Navy leaving Guadal Canal, well yeah, the Japs were coming with a pretty bad ass Armanda and in fact the U.S. Navy suffered one of their worse defeats clean back alot of years. It didn't matter if those sailors were trained warriors or not in Guadal Canal...they didn't have the firepower that should have been there, the Japs did. The poor Marines didn't have a choice but to fight.

I guess long ago the Navy did have some fighting skills. You fellows are right though, every branch should have the basic skills you mentioned, after they are soldiers so to say. I mean the Navy isn't just sailors out on a nice weekend yacht cruise. I remember all I got in boot was about a half box of 22's out of some target Mossberg, that was it.

Joe

Bret4207
12-29-2005, 08:25 PM
Joe- I was the one talking about Guadal Canal. Fletcher ran like a scared little girl. Period. It was his decision, no one elses. Someone like Halsey or Nimitz would have stayed as long as possible. I don't mean for Fletchers decision to reflect on all sailors. Makes me crazy that they relieved Adm. Husband Kimmel from Command at Pearl when he got caught with his pants down, but let Fletchers act of near(I'm being generous) cowardice go. Kind of like LT C Winfield Cunninghams surrender of Wake Is. Major Deveraux wanted to fight on and had the gear and men to do it, but Cunningham surrenderd and yet was called a hero. Same thing at Corrigedor. The Marine way is to fight until you either die or run out of ammo. Then comes the bayonet and e-tool. Considering what the alternatives are for captured Americans in Iraq it seems like a pretty good plan as opposed to having your beheading shown on Al Jazira.

The Navy used to have trained landing parties. They did well fighting alongside Marines at Peking during the Boxer Rebellion. Navy Corpsmen are beloved by Marines, they go into the thick of it alongside the Marines of the platoons they're assigned to. My great Uncle allegedly won a Medal of Honor along side his Marines at Belleau Wood as a Corpsman. Navy SeaBees fought alongside Marines at Wake and many other battles in WW2. So it's not the sailors problem, it's the guys upstairs not seing the big picture and providing more training.

MGySgt
12-29-2005, 08:26 PM
I think most of us are looking at what the training does for the individual, and what the army gets out of it is secondary...

BS - The branches train for their primary missions - so they can accomplish thier missons when called upon to perform them.

Each Branch has a unique function and their primary missons are different that is why the Air Force was cut out of the Army (Army Air Corps) after WWII. It made (and still does) more sense for them to be a seperate force with their own funding and bases.

One military branch won't work - the missons are too different. With one military service some of the missons would suffer, who ever was in charge would through more budget at the areas he (or she?) came up through.

There is enough of that problem right now accross the board within the each of the branches, whjo gets the biggest budget, who gets the new toys for thier primary missions?

The uniqueness of the services is why there are more and more Joint excersizes that started in the late 80's and early 90's. The Joint Chiefs of Staff look at a mission and then select the componets that are needed to successfully complete the missions. Early on there was a lot of bickering as to who got what.

My last command was Marine Forces Atlantic and I seen more and more Joint exercizes being conducted every year I was there.

We are playing together better today then we did in the past, but all the branches are needed to perofrm all the varied missions we perform!

Just my 2 cents worth!!!

Drew

waksupi
12-29-2005, 08:41 PM
JHoe, I can't agree with your assessment of Marines. I work with four of them. Every one are nice, humble people, not pushy, and seldom mention anything service related. And they are all sharp tacks. And I think the multiple Bronze and Silver stars hanging on the office walls tells something about thier caliber.

StarMetal
12-29-2005, 08:59 PM
Ric,

I know alot of nice ones too, if you read my best friends Dad was one of the many. I've seen my share of the bad ones when I was in the service.

Also if you read I didn't say I didn't like the Marines or Marines...I admired their service.

Joe

StarMetal
12-29-2005, 09:02 PM
Tpr Bret,

I can agree with with that post.

Joe

Scrounger
12-29-2005, 09:17 PM
That was only one of Fletcher's failures. He had a load of fighters to be delivered to Wake before it was attackec but he dawdled around delaying for several days, then returned to Pearl. If he'd been a Captain instead of an Admiral, he'd have been relieved.

carpetman
12-29-2005, 09:23 PM
Tpr Bret---Your great uncle allegedly won a Medal of Honor. You can do a search and find out if he indeed did. If you cannot find a list---I bet you could give Wills the name and he would find out for sure along with his blood type and anything else you wanted to know. Lots of guys do tell war stories. Know the difference in a war story and a fairy tale? Fairy tale starts out"once upon a time". War story starts out"this aint no ****".

StarMetal
12-29-2005, 09:29 PM
Well men, I want to take this opportunity to say you all have been one great bunch of military men. Even the Marines. Dang, I couldn't even get the Marines stirred up. You took my ribbing like real men, and that's the way I wanted it to be taken. We're all in the same boat.

I had heard that the Navy got rid of the Marines guards at the naval base main gates and use civilian guards now. If this is so it really sucks because I can't think of anyone better to guard those gates then the Marines. They were there when I was in the Navy and by God that's the way it should be.

Joe

carpetman
12-29-2005, 10:38 PM
One big difference in todays military and from the past is the number that can play pinochle. In the 60's they were still getting about the same pay as they had in the 50's. Entertainment in a large part was playing cards and pinochle seemed to be the top pick in all branches. In the 70's,salaries took some much needed leaps and bounds(compared to older salary)and the younger guys could now afford stereos,color tv's,going out to eat and movies etc so card playing took a back seat. I went to a big shop in 1971 and not one first termer knew how to play. I did correct that and several of the younger families were playing . Probably same is true of non military families. As earnings went up,the family getting together and playing games,which use to be common,is not as common anymore. Got go,daughter and grandson on way to play something.

sundog
12-29-2005, 11:30 PM
Joe, don't think the unified approach is gonna work. Did you know that at one point after Desert One we were really close to having another branch? What finally came of it all was USSOCOM. The story is long and prolly not appropriate to a discussion here. Bottom line is we got we got right now and joint ops is it and for the most part it appears to be working - at least better than it did. I know about some of this as I was, well, sorta near some of it.

If you want to read some really eye opening stuff, google 'Black Hawk Down' (not the movie stuff), and read all the stuff that comes up. Some of it is a little lengthy, but worthwhile. Of course, this is but one example. Again, I salute the folks doing service today. It's trying times for them and their familes. sundog

waksupi
12-29-2005, 11:34 PM
Tpr Bret---Your great uncle allegedly won a Medal of Honor. You can do a search and find out if he indeed did. If you cannot find a list---I bet you could give Wills the name and he would find out for sure along with his blood type and anything else you wanted to know. Lots of guys do tell war stories. Know the difference in a war story and a fairy tale? Fairy tale starts out"once upon a time". War story starts out"this aint no ****".


Not necessarily so, Ray. I was trying to get records of my grandfathers WW1 records. They were apparently destroyed in a large fire in the records division many years ago, along with most of that era personal records. So, not an easy task, as I can assure you, there was little interest in the department in trying to help locate any other information.

carpetman
12-29-2005, 11:42 PM
Waksupi--Ric,yes there was a big fire that destroyed a bunch of military records. But Medal of Honor winners still has a list of all. I think it is 3400 is all that have ever won it and if Tpr Bretts great uncle was one,that could be ascertained and most likely the story of what he did to earn it. Now if it's a case where he was told he was going to get one and never did---or he thought he should get one but didn't---those are other stories.

StarMetal
12-30-2005, 01:01 AM
Medal of Honor list http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm

omgb
12-30-2005, 04:26 AM
You guys are all very interesting indeed. I'm getting a kick out of this thread because it seems we all have been thinking/worrying/contemplating the same issues way before this thread ever got started. My experience is weird militarily. The USAF back in the 70s was a pencile-pushing outfit. We learned managment not leadership. The two times I went over seas the base Security team had no desire to watch me shoot for qualification so they pencil whipped my Q card. As to boring......I could write books on boredom. I spent a whole year remote in Alaska taking the same dang weather observation every hour for days on end. Sometimes it would snow for three weeks non-stop in total darkness. Then in the spring, it would rain for days in total light. No wind, no pressure spikes, just constand low pressure, low clouds, drizzle and gloom. Even at Malmstrom in Montana, if it weren't for the times off for fishing and hunting a jet-butt could go crazy for lack of excitement. Don't even get me started about Greenland....the only thing that could be more boreing might be duty in an atomic sub..but shoot, even they have drills and the constant threat of being crushed to death.

The Cold War was a psychological drain on an hourly basis. We watched, we waited and we worried that eventually, we might receive that which we were waiting for. I have no idea what the war in Iraq must be like, it's too far removed from my military frame of reference. I do know what today's youth are like though since I have been teaching high school for almost twenty years. They will rise to the occasion if needed. Like us, they will protect that which they value and they will fight for their friends.

omgb
12-30-2005, 04:34 AM
Here's Tatalina AFS in the Kuskoquim River Valley about 30 air miles from McGrath AK. I spent and eternity here one year. This shot is the main site. Top camp was up the mountain and had maybe 20 guys permanently up there with the RADOMS. I was out at the OL about 5 klicks away on a ridge. I'l post a second photo of that place.

R Talley

Scrounger
12-30-2005, 10:28 AM
At one time the medal was thrown around rather cheaply. During the Civil War for instance, a whole Massachusetts regiment, almost 900 of them, were awarded the medal for re-enlisting. There were other occasions wherein it was awarded as a favor. And George Armstrong Custer's brother, Tom, was awarded it twice for capturing enemy battle flags. You don't suppose his brother and commanding officer had anything to do with that, do you? The brothers both died at Little Big Horn. Sometime later in history many of the questionable awards were rescinded, giving the medal the prestige it has and deserves today.

grumble
12-30-2005, 12:40 PM
Heard this yesterday from a former Army Combat Medic: Know why the Navy lets Marines aboard their ships? They're easier to hide than sheep.

grumble
12-30-2005, 12:58 PM
Scrounger, no offense intended here, but you gotta stop thinking of the armed forces as a big social experiment. Each of the branches has a deadly serious mission, and they aren't there to play with spoiled or delinquent kids. Their job is to kill people and break things and quickly and efficiently as possible. Those who don't like to play nicely with their teammates have no business in the military, and the military isn't there to act as a subsitiute for detention in high school. Too many politicians (and sometimes judges) think military service is a cure for social problems, and that results in disappointment and hardship all around.

As for a unified service, which we used to call "purple suiters," I'd guess we'd be better off contracting our combat forces than trying to integrate the multiple missions. Sorta like the new Homeland Security Department -- FEMA used to be pretty good at disasters until they merged with HSD and lost their emphasis and budget.

From what I've seen, Army, Air Force, and Marines can do very well in joint operations. It's the Navy that makes life difficult by refusing to do anything differently to accomodate the needs of the other services. But, that's just my observation. The absolute hugest problem in joint ops is communication. That's why it's usually comm problems when some poor guys in an APC get blown away by friendly fire. Lots of good work being done on that front, if Congress will fund it.

carpetman
12-30-2005, 02:38 PM
Tpr Brett---That link Starmetal Joe posted is not complete. I know because Forrest Gump wasn't listed.

Bret4207
12-30-2005, 05:09 PM
Oh man! You guys are cruel!

I'll check the link. Thanks. And may I add a solemn prayer for all our troops of every branch everywhere. God bless them all.

Bret4207
12-30-2005, 08:25 PM
Found my great uncle on www.hometownheros.com . George W. Bailey of Ogdensburg NY recv'd the Distinguished Service Cross in 1918. I'll have to do some further research to try and find the citation. Not the MOH, but I ain't ashamed of it fer sure.

Bret4207
12-30-2005, 08:26 PM
Make that www.homeofheros.com

StarMetal
12-30-2005, 08:31 PM
Carpetman,

That's because Forest Gump in on Michael Moore's Metal of Honor List.

Hope that clears things up.

Joe

Bret4207
12-30-2005, 08:32 PM
BAILEY, GEORGE W.
Pharmacist's Mate Third Class, U.S. Navy
5th Regiment (Marines)(Attached), 2d Division, A.E.F.
Date of Action: October 4, 1918
Citation:
The Distinguished Service Cross is presented to George W. Bailey, Pharmacist's Mate Third Class, U.S. Navy, for extraordinary heroism in action, near St. Etienne, France, October 4, 1918. Pharmacist's Mate Bailey voluntarily went out in front of the most advanced positions of our troops in order to render first aid to a number of wounded soldiers. He continued the work until all the wounded had been given first aid and evacuated.
General Orders No. 35, W.D., 1919
Home Town: Ogdensburg, NY

My uncle later returned to Ogdensburg and became an optometrist (sp). I remember him as a scary old man with a scarier wife. Hard to imagine him as a young man in WW1. Rest in peace and Semper Fi Uncle George.

felix
12-30-2005, 08:38 PM
Gosh, all this time I thought George Bailey had a "Wonderful Life" because he had a buddy named Clarence. ... felix

ruger4570
12-30-2005, 10:25 PM
Tpr.Bret: You have to know that the Army has taken more beacheads than the Marines and as a former member of the 101st Airborne, I know this to be true... but as a member of NY residents, I sure hope I don't run into you on the NYS Thruway.. Just kidding. You have a proud history and you serve in a very honerable department of NY. I truly have a lot of respect for you and your Department,,, inspite of a couple of tickets (doing 82 on the T way) I have received. I just wanted to let you know, no matter how wrong you guys are in ticketing me (lol) I do in fact appreciate your service to NY. This Country needs MORE men like you. Thank You

waksupi
12-31-2005, 12:47 AM
BAILEY, GEORGE W.
Pharmacist's Mate Third Class, U.S. Navy
5th Regiment (Marines)(Attached), 2d Division, A.E.F.
Date of Action: October 4, 1918
Citation:
The Distinguished Service Cross is presented to George W. Bailey, Pharmacist's Mate Third Class, U.S. Navy, for extraordinary heroism in action, near St. Etienne, France, October 4, 1918. Pharmacist's Mate Bailey voluntarily went out in front of the most advanced positions of our troops in order to render first aid to a number of wounded soldiers. He continued the work until all the wounded had been given first aid and evacuated.
General Orders No. 35, W.D., 1919
Home Town: Ogdensburg, NY

My uncle later returned to Ogdensburg and became an optometrist (sp). I remember him as a scary old man with a scarier wife. Hard to imagine him as a young man in WW1. Rest in peace and Semper Fi Uncle George.


Very interesting, Brett. I think it is pretty much inconcievable to most of us, of what the soldiers went through in WW1. Warfare was switching from the tactics of trench warfare, that came into full flower at the end of the American Civil War, and the advent of the mechinized military. Probably the bloodiest conflict the world has seen, following our war between the states. Anyone not familiar with the war, should do some research for first hand accounts. There was no glory, just a lot of mud, death, and horror. Standing on the rotting corpses of your comrades was so common, as to be ignored, as the fighting went on. Rotting corpses in the trench beneath your feet, rats, running mud slurry where you tried to sleep, and incessant bombardment. No, thank you.

StarMetal
12-31-2005, 01:09 AM
And Ric, you forgot one of the rottenous things too, the damn poison gases!!!! A shame what they did.

Joe

waksupi
12-31-2005, 01:34 AM
And Ric, you forgot one of the rottenous things too, the damn poison gases!!!! A shame what they did.

Joe
And, I don't know how I forgot that one. My one grandfather, was shot to hell by machine gun, at Belleau Woods. He had gas come over him before he could be saved, and barely survived, at that. He suffered all the rest of his life from the effects, and generally wouldn't be around other people, preferring to spend his time alone in the barn when visitors were at the farm. He was very badly scarred, and was quite self conscious about it. PTS, no doubt, but not recognised back then. I did manage to get close to him, through our mutual love of books. My other Grandfather never got out of the states, he was laid low with the Spanish Flu, and nearly died in Ft. Des Moines before he was deployed.

carpetman
12-31-2005, 01:48 AM
Tpr Brett---I am glad you could research and find your great uncles action. Thanks for the rest of the story. Are you by chance related to Paul Harvey?

wills
12-31-2005, 02:00 AM
Tpr Bret---Your great uncle allegedly won a Medal of Honor. You can do a search and find out if he indeed did. If you cannot find a list---I bet you could give Wills the name and he would find out for sure along with his blood type and anything else you wanted to know. Lots of guys do tell war stories. Know the difference in a war story and a fairy tale? Fairy tale starts out"once upon a time". War story starts out"this aint no ****".
HAYDEN, DAVID E.
Rank and organization: Hospital Apprentice First Class, U.S. Navy, serving with the 2d Battalion, 6th Regiment, U.S. Marines. Place and date: Thiaucourt, France, 15 September 1918. Entered service at: Texas. Born: 2 October 1897 Florence, Tex. Citation: For gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty. During the advance, when Cpl. Creed was mortally wounded while crossing an open field swept by machinegun fire, Hayden unhesitatingly ran to his assistance and, finding him so severely wounded as to require immediate attention, disregarded his own personal safety to dress the wound under intense machinegun fire, and then carried the wounded man back to a place of safety.

OSBORNE, WEEDON E.
Rank and organization: Lieutenant, Junior Grade, (Dental Corps), U.S. Navy. Born: 13 November 1892, Chicago, Ill. Appointed from: Illinois. Citation: For extraordinary heroism while attached to the 6th Regiment, U.S. Marines, in actual conflict with the enemy and under fire during the advance on Bouresche, France, on 6 June 1918. In the hottest of the fighting when the marines made their famous advance on Bouresche at the southern edge of Belleau Wood, Lt (j.g.). Osborne threw himself zealously into the work of rescuing the wounded. Extremely courageous in the performance of this perilous task, he was killed while carrying a wounded officer to a place of safety
PETTY, ORLANDO HENDERSON
Rank and organization: Lieutenant (Medical Corps), USNRF. Born: 20 February 1874, Harrison, Ohio. Appointed from: Pennsylvania. Citation: For extraordinary heroism while serving with the 5th Regiment, U.S. Marines, in France during the attack in the Boise de Belleau, 11 June 1918. While under heavy fire of high explosive and gas shells in the town of Lucy, where his dressing station was located, Lt. Petty attended to and evacuated the wounded under most trying conditions. Having been knocked to the ground by an exploding gas shell which tore his mask, Lt. Petty discarded the mask and courageously continued his work. His dressing station being hit and demolished, he personally helped carry Capt. Williams, wounded, through the shellfire to a place of safety.
BALCH, JOHN HENRY
Rank and organization: Pharmacist's Mate First Class, U.S. Navy. Place and date: Vierzy, France, and Somme-Py, France, 19 July and 5 October 1918. Entered service at: Kansas City, Mo. Born: 2 January 1896, Edgerton, Kans. Citation: For gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty, with the 6th Regiment, U.S. Marines, in action at Vierzy, on 19 July 1918. Balch unhesitatingly and fearlessly exposed himself to terrific machinegun and high-explosive fire to succor the wounded as they fell in the attack, leaving his dressing station voluntarily and keeping up the work all day and late into the night unceasingly for 16 hours. Also in the action at Somme-Py on 5 October 1918, he exhibited exceptional bravery in establishing an advanced dressing station under heavy shellfire

BOONE, JOEL THOMPSON
Rank and organization: Lieutenant (Medical Corps), U.S. Navy. Place and date: Vicinity Vierzy, France, 19 July 1918. Entered service at: St. Clair, Pa. Born: 2 August 1889, St. Clair, Pa. Citation: For extraordinary heroism, conspicuous gallantry, and intrepidity while serving with the 6th Regiment, U.S. Marines, in actual conflict with the enemy. With absolute disregard for personal safety, ever conscious and mindful of the suffering fallen, Surg. Boone, leaving the shelter of a ravine, went forward onto the open field where there was no protection and despite the extreme enemy fire of all calibers, through a heavy mist of gas, applied dressings and first aid to wounded marines. This occurred southeast of Vierzy, near the cemetery, and on the road south from that town. When the dressings and supplies had been exhausted, he went through a heavy barrage of large-caliber shells, both high explosive and gas, to replenish these supplies, returning quickly with a sidecar load, and administered them in saving the lives of the wounded. A second trip, under the same conditions and for the same purpose, was made by Surg. Boone later that day
LYLE, ALEXANDER GORDON
Rank and organization: Lieutenant Commander (Dental Corps), U.S. Navy. Born: 12 November 1889, Gloucester, Mass. Appointed from: Massachusetts. Other Navy award: Legion of Merit. Citation: For extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty while serving with the 5th Regiment, U.S. Marine Corps. Under heavy shellfire, on 23 April 1918, on the French Front, Lt. Comdr. Lyle rushed to the assistance of Cpl. Thomas Regan, who was seriously wounded, and administered such effective surgical aid while bombardment was still continuing, as to save the life of Cpl. Regan.

StarMetal
12-31-2005, 02:03 AM
Ric,

When I was a young boy, my mother's best friend's husband was a WWI vet. He was gassed in the war too. He wasn't physically screwed up by it, but I'm afraid his brain was alittle. Folks use to think he was slightly crazy, but we knew the truth. I loved that old guy and was a good man. At least he got two raise two find sons and he lived decently long. He sure made us kids laugh. Ever notice how someone who's been through the worse horrors of wars, love children?

Joe

versifier
12-31-2005, 02:59 AM
The following is a piece I wrote this past spring and published as part of a spread in the local paper for Memorial Day. It is a true story, and the man it was written about has gone on to a better place. I have the flag, gift of his family. :sad:

Heroes
by Thomas J. Diegoli © 2005

It all started with an innocent question. A friend had a job in elder care, and one of her clients was an aging veteran, sliding slowly into a pleasant dementia. Names and details are omitted to protect the family’s privacy.
“He has some medals and patches and things in frames on the wall, but when I asked him about them, he kept changing the subject,” she explained. “But now I’m curious. I want to know more about them.”
“Well,” I answered her, “there are lots of different military medals, maybe hundreds of them. I only know enough to recognize a few of the more common ones, describe them to me.”
“One of them is easy,” she told me, “I knew it right away. A purple heart on a purple ribbon. That’s for being wounded, right? He has the scars.”
“That’s right. The Purple Heart is awarded for battle wounds. What did the others look like?”
She went on to describe a WWII service medal, Distinguished Marksman, and also a Bronze Star.
“I’m not surprised at his reticence. He was a US Army combat veteran in WWII. Whatever he did to earn a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star and then make it back alive, there were probably a lot of his friends that paid the ultimate price and never made it home. The memories can be pretty painful. Some vets never get over them and can have nightmares for decades afterwards. They know a little about posttraumatic stress disorder now, but back then, the study was still in its infancy. Mostly they were told things like ‘Be a man. You’ll get over it.’ Some did, many didn’t.
“Don’t pester him about it,” I told her. “You’ve shown some interest, and if he wants to tell you about them, he’ll do it in his own time. What were in the other frames?”
“Oh, one had some patches with stripes, colored patches with numbers on them, long ribbons with different colored bands on them, and little round brass thingys with ‘US’ on them. There was a photo in it, too, of him as a young man. You can see how much his son resembles him.”
“Those are rank insignia, unit patches, and service ribbons. The unit patches and service ribbons can give clues to where he saw action and when. Some of the patterns matched the colors on the medal ribbons, right?”
“Yes, they did match. Some of them did, anyway.”
“If you can sketch or photograph them, I can look them up and get you some more specific information.”
“Okay, I’ll do that. But there was one more. The frame only had one medal in it, not like the others.”
“What do you mean?”
“Well, the other medals were the kind that pin on. This one was different. It had a long blue ribbon, like an Olympic medal, like it went around your neck.”
“W-what color did you say?” My throat started to get a little tight.
“Blue. Dark blue. There were some little stars embroidered on it where the medal hung. There was a gold eagle with the word ‘Valor’ and below it a kind of wreath with a star. Any idea what it is. Have you ever seen one?”
“Only in pictures.” It was really getting difficult to speak. “There’s only one medal with a blue ribbon like that. Only one.”
“Then you know what it is.”
I nodded. No more words came out.
“What’s the matter? Are you alright?”
It seemed like I had entered a dream world. Numbly, I went to the computer and found the appropriate website. There we found his name and a short description of the incident and circumstances that resulted in the award. I am not the least bit ashamed to say that we were both crying when we finished. I still couldn’t talk. That was over a year ago. My hands are shaking as I try to type it today. I got to shake his hand when I met them later on an outing to the supermarket. I never let on that I knew, but I will never forget it.
Why? Because there are very few who have been awarded the Congressional Medal, our country’s highest military decoration. Most are awarded posthumously. The latest went to US Army Sgt. 1st Class Paul Ray Smith, KIA in Operation Iraqi Freedom on April 4th, 2003. Before that, Master Sgt. Gary Gordon and Sgt. 1st Class Randall Shughart of the Army’s Delta Force in 1994 for their heroism in Somalia.
It is very important never to lose sight of the fact that all the men and women who have and had the courage and conviction to serve our country are heroes. They deserve our thanks and our support. In a culture where athletes and actors are idolized, it needs to be pointed out that there are real heroes, among us all the time. These are people we see every day and never recognize for who they are, never realize the prices they have paid, the sacrifices they and their families have made, the memories they must live with. All for us. And those are just the ones still with us.
When was the last time you said thank you?

Bret4207
12-31-2005, 08:27 AM
Outstanding. Semper Fi.

StarMetal
12-31-2005, 01:01 PM
versifier


Well done, touching. I mailed my best friends father a letter before he died telling him what a hero he was in my eyes and thanked him for his sacrifices in WWII...it made him cry. I hug and thanked everyone of of my relatives and friends that served in Vietnam and told them I know they didn't get a warm welcome when they come home.....I try.

Joe

8mmshooter
12-31-2005, 07:29 PM
Laid my father to rest on the 29th of December at Jefferson Barracks National Cemetary. He wasn't a perfect man; but he was a hero always in my eye. My family did not have a very good Christmas this year as I had to put him in a nursing home on the afternoon of the 24th of December. He died on morning of the 26th of December. He landed on D-Day the sixth of June 1944 on Omaha Beach as a 23 year old Army PFC with the 467th AAA AW Bn. He also endured through The Battle of the Bulge. He was a proud man; a man of his word as so many of his generation were. He lived through the tough times; the great depression; the 2nd World War and went on to raise his family as best he could. He was the last to die of his siblings and the last of his AAA battery to depart this world. I remember the day he sent me off to Viet Nam. He wasn't the kind to show much emotion; but I knew the softness of his eye. He always said after D Day he was no longer afraid to die; he never showed any fear of dying while Altzheimer's and several heart attacks racked his body and took their toll on his body. Yesterday I had to put my mother in the hospital because she has a failing heart. I do not know if she will make through this as of yet. She hid her illness from us pretty much as she cared for my father till almost the end. She will be 84 in Feburary if she makes it ;my father was 85. She worked for the Signal Corp during WW2 deciphering messages for the military as a civilian at Jefferson Barracks Missouri. I want to salute these fine hero's of this generation; I hope when my life is done and the last of my generation the baby boomers are laid to rest that history and my children will think as well of me. Fare well Dad and God Bless. 8mmshooter

StarMetal
12-31-2005, 08:17 PM
God Bless you and your family 8mmshooter, and may your father be at God's side...and may God watch over your mother.

Joe

trooperdan
12-31-2005, 08:17 PM
8mmshooter, condolences on the passing of your father. You wrote an excellent tribute to him. They were indeed the "greatest generation". Best wishes for you and your family in the coming year

felix
12-31-2005, 08:21 PM
8mmshooter, your family will be in our prayers tonight. It's especially hard when you are the first born which sounds like you might be. As an upswing, I dated a girl there years ago, named Joyce VanMeerlo (pronounced), in the very local area circa 1960. I have crossed that JB bridge many times. ... felix

krag35
12-31-2005, 08:52 PM
From me and mine, to you and yours, Our condolences, and prayers.
krag35

versifier
01-01-2006, 01:57 AM
It is often a powerless, helpless feeling to witness the passing of the greatest generation, but we have a choice: to cherish the freedom that their sacrifices bought us, and to teach our children to remember what they did, why they did it, and what it really means for us today before they're fed PC "history" in the classroom. My dad is a WWII navy vet, now 84. He came home from the war, (spent years in the reserves), went back to school and spent the rest of his working life teaching history and law, and raised four kids to know truth from fertilizer. There can be no freedom without a corresponding responsibility, a lesson I learned from him when I was very young. Every day that my kids and I can spend with him is a precious gift I do not take for granted. It is painful, but fitting, that we bury our parents, :( travesty and tradgedy when we bury our children. :cry: More gold stars every day...

Frank46
01-01-2006, 04:01 AM
Tpr.Brett, when was in the navy some of the ship's company were in the marine landing party. They were required to become aquainted with the arms in use at that time '64-'67.
You never saw so many cases of M1 thumb. OUCH. Frank

waksupi
01-01-2006, 05:21 AM
My condolences. That is a tough way to end a year. Most of us are far apart, but feel the loss of someone important, in this extended family.

sundog
01-01-2006, 09:39 AM
Its not easy dealing with this, harder yet this time of year. One by one the greatest generation are slipping away. My Dad was a WWII vet gone about a year and half now. Mom had worked at Republic doing fighter aircraft. She's been gone a little longer. My condolences. sundog

StarMetal
01-01-2006, 01:07 PM
Frank46

And as not to let the Jarhead get too big headed about that, on the other hand being I was a gun nut and hunter before enlisting in the Navy when I was 17, I knew all about the M1 Garand when an ex-Marine aboard our ship was going over one.

Guess that makes me big headed huh?

Joe

charlie / sw mo
01-01-2006, 11:05 PM
Tpr.Brett, when was in the navy some of the ship's company were in the marine landing party. They were required to become aquainted with the arms in use at that time '64-'67.
You never saw so many cases of M1 thumb. OUCH. Frank

i was stationed at ihe landing foce training command at coronado ca in 67-68 and part of 69 and the navy sent thier sailors over to us for training with whatever weapon they would carry . they would show up with tompsons, bars carbines and pistols. shoot a few rounds out of each and then off on liberty. not many people realize the navy still thinks about landing parties but evert ship has the requirement. cant help but wonder when the last landing party was actualy used--maby some of you sailors might know. this has been an interesting thread to me--someone was talking about the corpsmen in one of the posts-- when i went thru combat training in 1953 the corpsmen went thru the same training we did and im here to tell you they were a gung ho bunch, we also had seebee companys going thru with us, well enough rambling--back to lurking

charlie in sw mo

Frank46
01-02-2006, 04:24 AM
Joe, we had awiring trunk fire aboard ship one year. They flooded that deck with about two feet of water. Since my engine room was directly below the ships armory they askes for someone to take out all the weapons and ammo. Being a gun nut even back then I said yes. We ended up taking out M1's, M14's, browning bar's, 1914a4 30 cal machine guns and a bunch of other goodies. The gunner's mate watched us like hawks to make sure nothing went astray. Boxes of ammo, flares and other stuff. Even all the 45's had to go. Them guys spent weeks cleaning and oiling those weapons. We had a locker inspection one time and one guy had a bunch of 20mm shells in his locker. Darned if we could figure where he got them but some were hi explosive rounds, tracers and some other stuff. I have two ashtrays I made out of 5"54 caliber shells. They were firing the gun mounts one day and I had "borrowed" a set of ear muffs and asbestos gloves from the engine room. We'd run out after the gun had fired grab a shell then run back into the hangar bay and toss it into a steel 32 gal trash can (remember those??) did this twice and beet feet cause we were attracting a crowd and didn't want to get caught.. Dependence cruises, folks would go up on the flight deck and they would announce that they would be firing a 5'54 gun mount, and to stand back from the edge of the hangar deck. BOOM, next thing you'd see was at least one or two unlucky souls get knocked off their feet from being too close. Those 54lb shells would make a whoosing sound as they went through the air. Worst thing they did during those cruises was drop 500lb bombs in the water. Well they dropped one about a thousand feet or so from the engineroom I was working in. Darn near knocked all of us off our feet and the main steam line (600 psi @ 850 degrees superheat) started dancing. The top watch called the bridge and asked if they could drop those damn thing further away cause he was concerned that the header would break. Next ones were quite a distance from the ship. They used to give the officers training in small arms off the fantail. The gunnery sargent got mad cause most of the officers could not hit a 5 gallon can painted red
so he asked me if I could do better. He handed me an M1 loaded and I proceeded to shoot the heck out of the can. Then he turned to the officers and said "damn it if he can do it whay can't you). Those guys guesses it was just a lark and not paying serious attention. They got serious after that. Just a little kid from new york at the time, but had shot mil surps at the local ranges. Frank

StarMetal
01-02-2006, 09:38 AM
Frank,

We were practicing depth charging one day. Suppose to be going at least 27 knots and have plenty of water depth below you. Well, the dumb**** let one got in 50 feet of water and we were going pretty slow too. It raised the fantail out of the water. I think it split the diesel oil tank back aft too.

Another fun thing was firing the 5 incher back aft. Firing astern is really bad because the muzzle blast is over the deck of the ****. In result of that ventation ducks fell down, the flourescent lighting fell down, tile come off the decks, etc. I too have an ash tray made from one of those 5 inch casings. Now we could get those pretty easy and didn't have to steal them. My best friend who was on another ship that went to Nam said they sat offshore and bombarded the Cong and he said the casings were filling up the gun area as the netting fence like around the ship was preventing them from falling overboard. He told me they were tossing those nice brass shells over the side by the dozens. Man, can you imagine how much that would bring in brass at the scrap yard?

We went into drydock once. When you do that all dangerous stuff has to be unloaded from the ship....ammo, dept charges, hedgehogs, fuel, etc. I remember when we did that, after we were done the ship sat 3 foot higher out of the water!!!!! Man, what alot of ammo and stuff.

Worse experience ever was going throught a hurricane 280 miles off the south eastern coast of the U.S. It was like 0200 and I was on duty in the boiler room. The forward engine room, also known as the Main Enginroom, screw shaft went through our boileroom. Well there would be times the back end of the ship would be out of the water and the engines would speed up and I see that shaft really spin. I bet those poor engineroom boys were scared to death the turbines would blow up. Anyways that nite we took a 56 degree roll. Later on I was told that the ship was design to handle up to a 60 degree roll. We damn near went over!!!!!!! As it was it almost sank anyways...couldn't pump the water out of everything fast enough especially the chain locker for the the anchors. We came into port bow down. We lost everyone of our life rafts, they either got washed off or they are set to open and inflate under so much water. We sure had alot of waves going over us. The water also washed off the fire hydrants on the main deck, those are like 3 inch pipes. I heard where a destroyer lost a gun mount in a storm like that. I really though we were all doing to die that night.

Joe

grumble
01-02-2006, 02:03 PM
That hurricane sounds like a real adventure, Joe. I know I wouldn't wnat to have been there.

Got another Navy question for you. What's the difference between a boat and a ship?

StarMetal
01-02-2006, 02:25 PM
Grumble,


Well in my termnology a ship can can a boat or boats, but a boat can't carry a ship. Actually they go by size and if the vessel can travel the seas. There are some boats that can travel the seas but are still called boats such as submarines and tugboats.

Joe

grumble
01-02-2006, 05:29 PM
So a ship carries boats? That's the difference? After your ship went into drydock, did it come off as a boat? When the Japs carried the mini-subs on their U-Boats, did that make them U-ships?

This nautical stuff really confuses me.

StarMetal
01-02-2006, 05:33 PM
No, that's not all, what I said about size too, but I feel you're pulling my leg now hahahahaha..

Joe

grumble
01-02-2006, 06:13 PM
Joe, it takes the fun out when you refuse to take the bait. <GGG>

Still, it seems like there would be some sort of criteria for ships and boats. Number of tons displacement, volume inside the hull, number of crew, something...

I think the Navy must just make stuff up and act like they know what they're talking about. Maybe that's why so many retired Navy officer are in politics? <GGG>

Bret4207
01-02-2006, 07:19 PM
When your ship has been torpedoed and your swimming in sharks I imagine any boat that happened by would be just fine! I know I wouldn't argue over what they called the darn thing as long as it stayed afloat. Or sunk if the boat was a submarine for that matter.

Bret4207
01-02-2006, 07:20 PM
Hey, have some of the squids describe the difference between a line, rope, hawser, etc. Or better yet, explain "bells".

grumble
01-02-2006, 07:38 PM
Hey, have some of the squids describe the difference between a line, rope, hawser, etc. Or better yet, explain "bells".

I've been staying away from ropes and stuff because, surprisingly, the names kinda make sense. Like sheets hold sails, lines hold equipment, and hawsers hold the boat to the dock. Any sailor worth his salt could explain ropes. I have more fun asking about things that make no sense.

Now, "BELLS" is something a non-nautical person could go nuts about. I mean, why only 8 of them when there are 24 hours? And why every half hour? And why do they count 'em by twos? I always figured it would be so a sailor wouldn't know if he was working overtime.

StarMetal
01-02-2006, 07:42 PM
38 Special Trp Bret,

Hey, just teasing....

A hawser is a large rope for mooring or towing ships.
A line is a small rope or hawser, used for a specific purpose.
They are are listed under the title of "rope".

Yeah I know, how come a hawser isn't called line, because it's used for the specific purpose of mooring or towing ships.

So in that Picante commercial on TV where the cowboys were reading the label of that off market brand salsa, should they have said "Get A Line" instead of "Get A Rope" ?

Joe

StarMetal
01-02-2006, 07:48 PM
Aboard Navy ships, bells are struck to designate the hours of being on watch. Each watch is four hours in length. One bell is struck after the first half-hour has passed, two bells after one hour has passed, three bells after an hour and a half, four bells after two hours, and so forth up to eight bells are struck at the completion of the four hours. Completing a watch with no incidents to report was "Eight bells and all is well." The practice of using bells stems from the days of the sailing ships. Sailors couldn't afford to have their own time pieces and relied on the ship's bells to tell time. The ship's boy kept time by using a half-hour glass. Each time the sand ran out, he would turn the glass over and ring the appropriate number of bells.


Yeah I know, so after the watch period is over, how the hell anyone know what time it was?


Boy, I'm beginning to think the Navy is really screwed up after hanging around you fellows.


You know, I joined the Navy to ride the Waves ( get it, ride the waves, hee hee hee) .


Joe

grumble
01-02-2006, 08:03 PM
"Aboard Navy ships, bells are struck to designate the hours of being on watch..."

Oh boy, here we go again. Is a "watch" the same thing as a "shift?" So, sailors only work 4 hours a day?

No wonder they get so much of the DoD budget!

waksupi
01-02-2006, 09:44 PM
38 Special

A hawser is a large rope for mooring or towing ships.
A line is a small rope or hawser, used for a specific purpose.
They are are listed under the title of "rope".

Joe

I do believe, a line is all fiber, and a proper rope has a wire or cable in the center.

StarMetal
01-02-2006, 09:53 PM
Ric,

Nyta....they make them of alot of differenct materials now.

Joe

waksupi
01-03-2006, 12:55 AM
I'm aware they make them from other materials, but believe the definition I give is the right one. I'd have to look into my rigging book to check, and who knows where that is?

Bret4207
01-03-2006, 07:16 PM
It's right beside my 1943 copy of "The Blue Jackets Manual" which is somewhere near MY "Rigging" book.

Frank46
01-04-2006, 05:31 AM
Joe, we did a westpac cruise '66-'67 and had an emergency recall when we were in yokosuka japan. Shore patrol chased us back to the pier andback to our carrier by liberty launch. Well later that night all heck broke loose, guys were falling out of their racks and lotta guys seasick. A buddy was working in the catapult shack and when he woke up and looked out the hatch he saw water. There used to be a catwalk right out side but now it was gone. Our carrier was 60' from water to the flight deck. About 50' of catwalk was completely ripped off the side of the ship. I stood watch in the thrustblock (where the main thrust bearing was located for #1 shaft. Was like a roller coaster ride. Like you said you could hear the shaft speed up when it came out of the water and slow down when it was back in the water, kept the electric lube oil pump for the thrust bearing on all night. The shaft pump was only good after 60 rpm. But the chief said keep it going. He wasn't taking any chances. Later we found out that some of the bridge watch had reported waves coming over the flight deck. Hangar decks were a mess, air wing spent the whole time during the typhoon doubling and in some cases tripling the tie downs for the aircraft. Ever
spend any time near pollensa (spelling) bay in spain??. I watched a heavy cruiser do one heck of an imitation of a submarine. This was in november. One minute you saw the cruiser the next she was bow under. Then up and down again. Typhoons in the south china sea were real doozys. Yeah, those 5 inch shell casings were beautiful. Try to find any now. All you'll find is the steel ones. Heck I found one in a dumpster in norfolk virginia. Good old dumpster diving. They saved a bunch of the 5" shells to make ashtrays for the airwing officers. The boys in the machine shop spent weeks cutting them down and polishing them.
The pieces left over were swapped to "Hong Kong Mary" to provide labor to paint the ship on one of our visits to hong kong. I polished mine the hard way. Emery paper and brasso.
Have a nice collection of shells. 20mm. 37mm,40mm,57mm,75mm,105mm,3"x50, and some trench art. First World War, Second World War, Vietnam, german and a few others. The brass shell casings are getting hard to find. I snoop on ebay. Frank

Frank46
01-04-2006, 05:42 AM
4 hours is the normal length of a watch. If you worked the 4-8am watch you worked your 4-8am watch, went to work or turn to then did the next 4-8 watch. The last year we were very shorthanded. We did 6&6. 6 hour watches then 6 hours either working of if you were lucky 6 hours off. The boiler tenders, machinists mates and enginemen were so short that they were deemed critical rates. They offered $5600 for re-enlistment even when we were
over in vietnam. $5600 bucks was a lotta money back in the '60's. But so many guys were leaving after their stint of active duty. We even had transferee's off the lake champlain when she was decommissioned. I made MM3 about a month after I was released from active duty. A buddy wrote me and told me that I had made the first increment. So I would have to had to extend my enlistment for at least 6 months. Longer for MM2. Frank

StarMetal
01-04-2006, 11:57 AM
Frank

I have a shell from our 3 inch anti aircraft gun too. I also have an ashtray made from a 40mm grenade launching shell. You take that shell, then you link of some 308 links with M60 links, and you link it together to form a bracelet or circle, and they come out to the right amount to snap over that 40mm shell. Makes an attractive ashtray.

I have a WWI 37mm anti-tank round complete, and some 20mm's and of course the 50 calibers.

At one time I had in my foot locker aboard a Naval destroyer, a Thompson machinegun barrel (new), Thompson 30 round magazine (new), 25 feet of underwater fuze, one pound of black powder, percussion caps, 45 cast lead bullets, and Marlin 22 semi-auto carbine. One time while in port one of my friends brought in an origian 1860 Colt cap n ball and we shot it in the boilerroom...ships are so noisey hahahahahahaha.

Joe

Frank46
01-05-2006, 04:05 AM
Joe, ah memories sometimes I wonder how somany of us survived our youth from the stunts we pulled aboard ship. When we were in gitmo, some guys decided to go fishing for sharks. OK, bummed some meat offa one of the cooks. Down to sickbay and drew some blood and a hypo to inject it into said piece of meat. The hook was made out of 3/8" stainless steel rod and about 20 feet of 1/4" chain which was attached to about 100' of manila rope. OK, threw the meat, chain over the side. For about an hour nothing. Guys got bored and some left. All of a sudden the rope goes taut and this big shark surfaces. Well we managed to get it aboard but no one would get close. That shark tried its darndest to get someone. Finally it flopped overboard and with it went the whole shooting match. The great shark hunt had come to an end. Hey, ever throw mickies at the supply ships when doing underway replenishment? Mickie is spuds. We were taking on supplies during the westpac cruise and the supply ship had their band playing. Well some courageous souls decided to launch some mickies at the band during the breakaway. I was on the fantail and saw it happen. They waited until the band was opposite them and let fly. The guys on the ship never knew what hit them. So they of course started throwing the spuds back. I don't know who got the worse of it but a great time was had by all. Of course the next time the master at arms had people out looking for potential mickie launchers so another historic moment in time was lost. The artillery shells thing started by accident. I went into one of those places that moved peoples furniture and stuff. The woman had a bunch of shells and other memorabilia and I ended up buying two WW1 37mm shells that had been engraved with the names of some battles. Chateau Thiery, Muse Argionne, Beallaeu(spelling) Wood and others. Then some 40mm shells. Heck I even found some in a local scrap yard. Frank

350mag
01-07-2006, 03:35 AM
I had an interesting conversation with my youngest stepson over the holiday. He going to deploy in February for his second tour in Iraq. Marines, 1/4, infantry. The conversation was about his plans for after his tour. He is going to re-up and try for recon. His reasoning is that he will then be with a smaller group that all want to be there and he won't have any boots to watch out for or depend on. His first tour in Iraq has made some huge changes in him as a man. He is looking forward to going back since he knows that there is still a job that needs to be done there. He made several observations about being a combat vet now and being trained by NCOs that haven't been there. He spent three days in the cemetary in Najaf exchanging fire with the militia of that crazy cleric last time and the experience of dodging bullets and hiding behind gravestones has given him a new perspective. Prior to the Marines he was a typical, self-centered 18 year old kid. Since then he has become interested in what he can do for others and is looking at a career with the Marines.
I am glad that I was able to encourage him in the shooting arts before he joined up since he has qualified with everything so far and is the sqaud designated marksman now. He was telling me all about his new weapon with the ACOG sight and other cool stuff on it now. All and all, his mother and I are very proud of him and the choices he is making . We hope all goes well for him and if he really wants to go to Iraq again then I sure hope he keeps his head down when the sh** hits the fan.
Ken

Frank46
01-07-2006, 04:42 AM
350Mag, may God watch over him and protect him. Frank

Bret4207
01-07-2006, 09:09 AM
Ditto what Frank said. You must be extremely proud to know you helped raise A MAN! Semper Fi.

MGySgt
01-07-2006, 05:28 PM
350Mag - May God protect him in his Tour and chosen profession. From the Old Corps to the New Corps - Semper Fi!

Frank46
01-08-2006, 03:11 AM
Gunny, I'm going to relate a story. But upfront I mean no disparagement of the Marines. Our ship carried nukes and each access to their storage and work compartments was guarded by Marines. We were sitting in the machine shop watching a movie when the power went off. When that happens the penetration alarm goes off for those compartments. All of a sudden there's much screaming and yelling in the passage way. Seems the Marines answering to the alarms had their rifles at port arms. Well you can't get through a regular hatch with rifles at port arms. The noise was the first guy running full tilt into the hatch with rifle at port arms and the rest of them running into him. We were doing an overhaul on a fire pump and had to chain fall the replacement pump shaft down five decks. Since it was heavy seas the shaft got away from us and hit the back door of one such storage place. Oblivious to anything else we were very suprised to hear "PUT YOUR HANDS UP" shouted by one very anxious marine. With the shaft swinging from side to side this was kinda hard to do. This made for some interesting moments until it was explained what we were doing. They left one marine with us in case it happened again. Which it did.
Frank

MGySgt
01-08-2006, 07:45 AM
Frank - I can understand that happening - been in similar situtations myself. I sure hope they learned from it and starting training on how NOT to runn throught a ship's passageways!.

I bet that M-16 wasn't any good after it hit the portal for the hatch!

Drew

Frank46
01-11-2006, 05:24 AM
Gunny, this was 1966 and they still carried M-14's on the Rosie. Bet the sarge was really ticked off when he saw the dents in the wood. They kept those rifles well cleaned and polished. They even had a steam press in their compartment for pressing their uniforms. On occasion us snipes could use it also. As we supplied the steam. One joker shut off the steam one day and they had a fit. Ah well. Frank

MGySgt
01-11-2006, 07:09 PM
Frank - during my first tour I carried a 14 - I really liked that rifle a lot more then the Matty Matel (AKA M16-A2) I had later.

I don't think it shot any better then the M1 (Shot Intermuals with an M1 at Lake Hurst (SP) NJ early 70's).

I could shoot possibles all day long with the M-14 at 500, but that Matty Matel - kept loosing one to wind drift!

Drew

StarMetal
01-11-2006, 07:16 PM
Gunny,

Sounds like you haven't fired the heavy 5.56 ammo, it actually outperforms the 308, that is in flatness and winddrift, not energy of course. The AR15/M16 seems to be "the" rifle at the matches now a days. You know besides the BC of the bullet and weight of it also, the speed in flight has alot to do with wind drift. I think you just flat out hate the 5.56 and M16.

Joe

MGySgt
01-11-2006, 08:45 PM
Not So Joe!

When you are humping ammo through the jungles (or desert now) you can carry a heck of a lot more 5.56 then you can 7.62!!!!

And you have got to love those 30 round mags, vice the 20 rounders of the M-14.

Have you noticed what is being brought back over in Iraq? M-14's with scopes and holo sights. A 7.62 hole is a lot better then a 5.56 hole in someone that wants to put a hurten on you!

I fired some of the Heavies before I retired - 750 grainers - Oh that is the big 50 sniper round. They can't hid behind a flimsy wall when you have one of those!

But I did fire a bunch of the new ammo out of the SAAW also. More accurate, maybe a little bit more punch in close but it appeared to have much more at the longer ranges.

I haven't had to qual with the service rifle since 85 and we were still shooting up some the Nam era ammo.

The M-16 was easier to get better scores with at 200 and 300, but when the sh@# hits the Fan I like to reach out and touch them a tad bit further, if you know what I mean.

Why does everyone (except for my brother Marines) want to demote me 2 ranks? :) I had a Master Chief call me Gunny one day and of course I refered back to him as Chief - boy did he ever get hot and tried to let me know in no uncertain terms that he was a MASTER Chief, well I just politly told him I was a MASTER Gunnery Sergeant. He did shut up real quick. As a matter of fact there was a bunch of Sailors standing around that started to snicker and the Master Chief beat feet out of the area.

Oh well - You live and Learn, by the way he started it!

Drew

StarMetal
01-11-2006, 10:36 PM
MGySgt

Try this for what's being used in Afghanistan and Iraq....M16 ammo with match 70 gr hollow points from Hornady and Sierra both. Also M16 in 6.8 Remington. AR10 in 7.62 and of course your beloved M14's.

I believe it was the very short barreled M16 carbines that were having problems with penetration of distance target and that was with standard NATO ammo.

I'd imagine if we took this back to the Revolutionary War times the old vets then would have said "Yeah, give me my flintlock anyday over those new fangled whatever they are made of guns".

As I see military equipment gets improved as time passes on. Yeah those 30-06's and 308's were good back in their days and yes they can still wipe you out with one shot today, so can a Brown Bess Flintlock too. You know the Germans started to see the light too late in WWII when they came out with that STG44. Had they had that at the beginning of the war things might have come out differently...that is if their insane leader let the generals direct the war. Anyways all the equipment has gotten better, better comminications, better artilery, better aircraft, vehicles, ships...so why not rifles. If I had my choice in Nam today, I'd take the current M16 over the M14 any day and even better yet the AK 47.

Joe

MGySgt
01-12-2006, 07:33 PM
Joe - I agree with you up to a point.

First - The M-16 A2 is a much better weapon then the one I used (A1). The ammo has changed, heavier bullet, better balistics, etc.

In Iraq or Afganistan - I would prefer the M-16 A2 over the M-14, you can carry almost twice the ammo for the same weight. Body Armor, pack, helmet, Duce gear, etc, all make a heavy load in a place that is hot and dry. Total weight fully loaded with out ammo is 120 plus pounds for long range patrols or when you are humping to a defense position because you are setting up a hammer and anvil exercise. If you are out looking for the bad guys, you are still carrying a heavy load - more ammo is always better.

The A-2 now has fire and 3 round burst vice fire and full auto - makes more sense for the 'Rifleman' and the 'Automatic Rifleman' has a SAAW. And some one is helping carry ammo for the SAAW, normally the 'Assistant Automatic Rifleman'. Of course there is more ammo spread out amongst the rest of the fire team - you want to keep that hungry gun fed.

AK47 or one of its varant makes/models. Urban ware fare - yes a very good weapon, not prone to jam, has good balistics out to 300 plus but not very good accuracy after they have burned up about 10,000 rounds at full auto, I don't think anyone ever fires those without it being on full auto! But a distinctive sound that immeadiatly draws fire when one goes off, sometimes from friendlies that know you are not suppose to be carrying anything but issue.

In garrison, in a defensive position with a long kill zone in front of me, where re-supply of ammo is not a problem, give me the M-14!

Just this old tired and retired Marine's opinion. Of course that an a buck might get you a cup of coffee!

MARCORVET
01-13-2006, 11:00 PM
There is a common misconception that Marines say "Hoooah!" I don't know where this came from, but it just ain't so. The word is "OOORAH!!!" given in a gutteral (sp) tone or almost growled out. I don't know how to spell it as it sounds. Sort of hard to explain. "Hooahh" on the other hand is not used by Marines, but perhaps by army or those navy walrusses or sea lions, I forget what they're called. If the Gunny starts saying "Hooahh" I'm gonna have to get the boys together and straighten his script writers out.


Tpr. Bret,
My father in law was a retired Army Col. Hoooah comes from the Army (Special Forces, I think).

However, as you said all of us JARHEADS say "OOORAH".

Semper Fi!
MARCORVET

Bret4207
01-14-2006, 08:59 AM
MARCORVET- There, there. No need to be bringing up embarassing family history in a public setting! HA! (I'm joking for those of you who don't know) Semper Fi!