25-20

[NHlever]

I just picked up a Marlin 1894 CL in 25-20 tonight at the local gun shop. Anyone shooting one of these with boolits? I have a Lyman 257312 mold, and do have a bunch of boolits cast in anticipation of such a find, or to use in a .257 Roberts. Any input on experiences with this gun would be appreciated. I understand that it can be a bit picky with cast loads.

[Dale53]

I have great affection for the Marlin 1894 CL 25/20. My bullet is the 257420 GC and it weighs 70.0 grs with my alloy. My "heavy load" uses 14.5 grs of RL-7 (this is a compressed load) which will hold the ten ring at fifty yards on the 50 yard smallbore target (ten shots for score). I don't get a high "x" count but it is VERY reliable. It chronographs at just under 2200 fps. It is comparable to the old high speed factory load. A milder load is 11.5 grs of RL-7 that also shoots well.

A really good squirrel load is the same bullet over 4.0 grs of Unique. It is my favorite squirrel load. I normally try for a head shot, but if the squirrel does not present a head shot then a classic behind the shoulder shot brings them right out of the tree - EVERY TIME.

There is no better rifle for edible small game.

Dale53

[NHlever]

Thanks Dale...... those are the kind of things I'm looking for. I have a .22 Hornet bolt gun, but I'm really looking forward to working with the 25-20. It is such a trim rifle, and just belongs roaming the woods.

[beagle]

My M1894 .25/20 shot well with the 257420 but didn't like heavier bullets like teh 257312.

They are a fun little gun for plinking and woods walking./beagle

[9.3X62AL]

My 1894CL in 25/20 WCF has a mild preference for #257420 over #257312, but more a matter of consistent grouping than innate accuracy. The lighter boolit throws far fewer flyers, is what it boils down to.

11.0 x RL-7 has done well for me, as has 11.0-12.0 of IMR-4198 with #257420.

[NHlever]

I have the 257312 mold, and a bunch of bullets cast, but it sounds like I should go ahead and get the 257420. I think it has a larger meplat for hunting too. All the input has been great! Gotta get this woodswalker up, and running. I have some brass, but need dies, so I'll order them tonight with the mold.

[beemer]

My 25-20 is a bolt action Savage 23. I use the Lyman 257312 and 6.5 grs. of AA#9. It doesn't seem to make any difference whether it has a gas check or not but it needs to be .259 in dia. I have found the 25-20 to be picky in the two rifles I have tinkered with. My shootin buddy has a 92 Win that wouldn't shoot the Lyman but would shoot my RCBS, so we swapped. I found out that I needed to adjust charges in 2 or 3 tenths of a grain increments or I would miss the sweet spot. The 25-20 makes a nice little rifle that is cheep to shoot. Hope you enjoy that one.

beemer

[beagle]

Mine keyholed with the 257312 and also with an NEI #312 clone. The nice part is that I finally found a load that gave me 1 1/2" groups of keyholes. Realizing that you can't run a railroad like that, I rebarrelled with a 1-12 twist Douglas 24" barrel and also put on a full magazine so I can load up and shoot all day. Now, it pretty well handles everything I feed it./beagle



I have the 257312 mold, and a bunch of bullets cast, but it sounds like I should go ahead and get the 257420. I think it has a larger meplat for hunting too. All the input has been great! Gotta get this woodswalker up, and running. I have some brass, but need dies, so I'll order them tonight with the mold.

[NHlever]

I have the 257420 65 grain mold on order along with the dies I needed. That 257312 is a looong boolit for a slow twist. It's shot OK in a couple of .257 Roberts rifles though. ........ I need a .250-3000. :-)

I got a bunch of ammo with the gun, some of it pretty old. There is one box of CIL full metal jacket flat point......

[Larry Gibson]

Like beemer, my 25-20 is a Savage 23. The barrel was shortened to 20" and it wears a Weaver 2.5X scope. It really likes the 257420 at .259 cast of 16-18 BHN alloy lubed with javelina and wearing a Hornady GC over 11 gr of 5744 or 10 gr of H4227. Velocity for both is 1850 fps and accuracy is 1.5 - 2 moa at 100 yards for 10 shots with most in 1-1.5". A good "GP" load is 4.5 gr Unique for 1550 fps and 1" groups at 50 yards. My favorite small game load out to 75 yards is the Lyman 257283HP cast of soft .22LR recovered lead it weighs 80 gr. It is a plain base bullet so I lube with LLA and shoot as cast over 2.7 gr Bullseye for 1060 fps. It thumps critters much harder than any of the Hyper velocity .22LRs.

Larry Gibson

[NHlever]

Thanks for all this good load information! I'll have a bunch of things to try when the dies get here. I've seen a Savage 23 for sale, and a Winchester 43 in 218 Bee. Both have the 3/4" scopes mounted. Have you found a 1" mount that fits the holes typical for the 3/4" mounts, or how are your scopes mounted? I thought I might use the side mount I have for a Savage 340 if I were to buy one of those guns, but the hole spacing is altogether different, and I really don't want to drill one of those nice old guns full of holes.

[Larry Gibson]

My M23 has Weaver bases and was D&T'd when I got it. It doesn't have any holes for a side mount. The scope is nicely positioned and sits as low as it can with Weaver low tip off rings. Looks like it was made to mount that way.

Larry Gibson

[beemer]

Mine was also drilled and tapped when I got it. It has a Redfield base with the dovetail front and windage screws at back, the rings were 3/4 in. with an old Weaver. I replaced the rings with 1 in. rings that were only split at the top. The scope I used was a K4 that did not have centered cross hairs, they would move around when adjusted, it was old but in new condition. The eyepiece and adjustment assembly had to be removed to install the rings. These things are a little different to adjust because the crosshairs will get out of center. The crosshairs are centered first, the windage is adjusted with the back ring and the elevation is roughed in with shims. The zero is fine tuned with the scope adjustments. All this is just to keep the crosshairs somewhere in the center.

This was an attempt to keep the character of the little rifle intact despite being drilled and tapped. It was in interesting thing to fool with and I enjoyed it but it was a learning experience. Everyone that shoots it wants to take it home but I doubt that many appreciate what it it took to get it there or how much fun it was.

Larry, my rifle has 2 tapped holes on the left side of the reciever, one on each side of the saftey indicator and 2 on top at the rear that I assume were for peep sights. Does your rifle have these? I was wandering if they were factory D&T.

beemer

[NHlever]

What you guys have, and have done with your model 23's is really interesting! So much more so than the "seen one seen them all" current crop. Both the 23, and the 43 that are for sale locally have 4 holes drilled and tapped on the left side of the receiver, and 3/4" tube old style .22 scopes installed. I didn't know that there would be bolt handle clearance if you used Weaver top mounts. Hmm. I could put filler screws in the holes that are there.

[35remington]

Your two most commonly found moulds will be the RCBS 85 Cowboy flatpoint or the Lyman 257420.

With the RCBS bullet, I have found quench hardening the bullet, and NOT filling the lube grooves with lubricant resulted in better accuracy. The bullet is overlubricated when filled with lube IME and throws the first shot wide out of a cold barrel. In addition, groups tended towards fliers and group enlargement after the lube accumulates.

I use LLA or Johnson's Paste Wax for lube.

I like the RCBS because of the biggest nose flat you'll find on a 25 caliber bullet, and I stubbornly decided it was just what I wanted despite poor results in a badly throated TC Contender barrel. I spent great effort in getting it to shoot.

In two barrels with three different throats 5.5 of 2400 or 6.5 grains of 4227 worked well at around 1300 fps. This velocity and bullet should stabilize in your (I understand) slower twist Marlin. Also 6.0 of 4759 at 1350 fps.

My current .25-20 barrel is an OTT for my Contender. Spent 400 bucks for it, which should give some idea of what I think of the .25-20.

The flatpoint on the 257420 isn't particularly large. Compared to the RCBS bullet, it's tiny. Still works fine, but I like the big flat (think I said that somewhere above) for small game hunting.

[NHlever]

Hmm 35 Remington, I get the first shot wide in my .22 Hornet with the Lyman 22596 bullet, and never gave overlubrication a thought. Thanks for that hint. I've shot the 257312 that I have in a .257 Roberts and the groups with that were pretty round, but larger than I would have liked. I'm really looking forward to working with this rifle, and the 25-20 caliber. When the Marlin CL's were in production my sons were either in college, or just getting started on their own, and I just didn't want to spend that money on a rifle.

[Larry Gibson]

NHlever

Attached photo shows the RT & Lt sides of my M23's reciever plus the bolt handle clearence. The rear base is a 71A and the front base is a 46.

Larry Gibson

[NHlever]

That looks really good Larry! I may have to see if the one I saw is still available. What do you think a fair price is for them? I'll need to check the bore too, since I didn't when I casually looked at it.

[beagle]

On your 257312, you might think about having Buckshot hollow point it for you. HPing a mould seems to throw the weight farther back and help some in stability. I didn't have a 257312HP when I had my stock barrel. That HP conversion makes a darn nice little bullet anyway./beagle

[jwhite]

I have one of the Marlins classics and my favorite small game load is 2.7gr (lee dipper) of unique with a 80gr Lee group buy bullet seated backwards, this makes for a full wadcutter going about 960fps. This load shoots well at the distances I shoot, is wicked quiet and hits squirrels and bunnies like a little hammer. I remember a couple times having one of my daughters in the backpack carrier sound asleep and shooting squirrels with this load and them not waking up after I shot. For a little faster load I use the 257420 with 12gr IMR-4198 or 14grs of RL-7 or Data 68. I have hollowpointed this boolit and it really makes a difference in terminal performance. I have also used the RCBS plain base bullet quite a bit, I used to shoot it with 11.5grs of 4198, this is pretty fast for a plain base bullet, it shot fine but left a a little vaporized lead on the case necks that was a pain to get rid. I find my self sticking to the milder loads as I seem to toss a lot of split cases when I start loading them full speed. Enjoy your new rifle, it is one the best woods loafing rifles there is.
Jerry

[NHlever]

Jwhite......... Hi neighbor! Are you talking about IMR 4198, or the H-4198, and I assume you mean RL-7? I'm getting anxious for my mold, and dies to get here. I think I will scope the rifle at first at least until I get some loads worked up. Then, maybe a small scope like the Weaver 1-3x might work, but I may try receiver sights too. Thanks for the load info!

[jwhite]

NHlever,
You are correct, I meant Reloader 7. I use IMR-4198 for the 4198 loads listed. I tried a small scope on my rifle when I first got it, just could not shoot that rifle with a scope, not sure why. I ended up putting a williams receiver site and a 1/16" ivory bead up front, this has proved to be an effective combination for me.
Jerry

[Dale53]

After I had worked up to my "heavy" load (not for weak actions) of the Lyman 257420 GC ahead of 14.5 Grs of RL-7 (just under 2200 fps), I took my Lee Turret to the range. I used the same five cases to load and shoot. I loaded and shot them 20 times each. I didn't lose one single case. I obviously have a good lot of cases and also the load is apparently well within decent pressures for that wonderful little lever gun - Marlin 1894CL.

I have a closet full of guns but must say that the Marlin ranks up with the best small game rifle, EVER! It is a "one shot stopper" and does not damage a bunch of meat. I use the "squirrel" load exclusively when hunting edible small game. It is far and away a better combination than the .22 rimfire for the purpose.

FWIW
Dale53

[NoDakJak]

I like the 25's and the 25-20 in particular. That fact should be evident as I am shooting six different types of rifle chambered for that round. I really like the 257312 but have only found the accuracy to be hohum at the best to keyholing at the worst when load building in the 25-20's. However! I have a custom 250 with a 1 in 10 twist on a Sako that is my most accurate cast shooter when using that same boolit. It shoots much larger groups with the Remington bullet that is designed for the 25-20. Prices of gaschecks have increased at a rate much faster than my retirement so I have been testing a mild load of 2400 behind a 257312 that is acww without a check. The rest of the case is filled with drier lint halfway up the neck before the bullet is seated. My test gun is a Sporco Martini and the unbushed firing pin lets yu know quickly when pressures get much above factory looads. Testing up to this point has been very satisfactory with accuracy better than that with just gas checks. Loading is rather tedious but I have more time than money. Neil

[bearmn56]

I have two 25-20 rifles. One is an early Savage Sporter, I believe it is the predecessor to the 23. Anyway, this one has an unusual Redfield peep sight that I am told is quite valuable. The bore is near excellent and shoots lead bullets great. It has a rather loose firing pin hole. While it has never caused any ruptured primers I have been unwilling to use hot loads in it. It, like the Savage 23, has two locking lugs on the rear of the bolt, so strength is not an issue. For this rifle I use 2.2gr of Bullseye behind any lead 85-90gr lead bullet.....plain based or GC. I use Winchester small magnum pistol primers. This load chronographs at 1000fps. My rifle shoots one ragged hole at 25yds with the peep sight and a rest.
I live very rural in Montana and have a cedar sided house. This means WOODPECKERS :Fire:. This is a fine cartridge for that. We also have small red squirrels that are unbeliveable chewers that try to chew into the soffit vents every year. They are very territorial and want to take over my bird feeder, as well. The Savage comes in very handy and is very accurate even beyond 50yards.
My second rifle is a Cadet Martini that I had relined to 25-20. The barrel and forend have been shortened. The forend has been fitted with a ebony tip and the rifle refinished to look like an English Rook rifle. In the process of the redo the firing pin was bushed as well. This rifle likes the above load using 2.2gr of Bullseye. However, It really shines with the 257312 GC bullet and 12.0gr of AA2015 with a Win Mag Pistol primer. This load chronographs at 1650fps with a very low extreme spread. The front sight on this rifle is a replacement ramp, but the rear is the original Cadet sight with the ears milled off. This makes a nice little adjustable rear sight. I am in my 60s and my eyes aren't quite as sharp as they used to be when using non peep iron sights. However, I can still keep these loads well under an inch at 25 yards and can hit a pop can more often than not at 100yds. Both of these rifles are a hoot to shoot. No recoil to speak of and the 2.2gr of Bullseye load is very quiet. Only a little louder than a 22 long rifle.
I love this cartridge and I know you will to.
Bearmn56
Montana Territory

[NHlever]

Well, my dies showed up last night, so I threw some loads together, and along with some old factory stuff, I headed to the range with the 25-20, and some other toys. I had loaded some of the 257312's over 4.5, and 5.0 grains of Unique just to see if I could hit the target with cast bullets. The all too clear answer was NO. Three rounds out of five hit the target paper at 50 yards, and showed clear signs of keyholing. Most of the factory ammo that I got with the gun is really old. I had some hang fires, and some failure to fires, and groups were in the 3"-4" range at 50 yds with that ammo. I had a little bit of newer Winchester, and Remington 86 grain stuff, and that grouped into a couple inches, or so at the same range. My cast bullets are air cooled ww, and sized to the as cast diameter of .258. I'll try driving them faster for chuckles if the bore slugs out right for them. I got the 257420 mold last night too, so I'll see how that casts since we have some snowy weather coming. Looks like this will be a bit of a challenge, and perhaps a learning experience too. I would have liked to see nice tiny groups, but I sure like the idea of this gun, and caliber, so I'll have some fun tinkering with it at any rate.

[Three44s]

Did you clean the bore of your .25-20 after you shot the old ammo?

Three 44s

[NHlever]

I shot the cast bullets first, and had thoroughly cleaned all jacket fouling from the barrel first. I did shoot the newer factory jacketed stuff after the old stuff, and do think that might have affected the group size of that ammo. I got nearly 7 boxes of assorted ammo with the gun, but some of it isn't worth much. I cleaned up my new Lyman 257420 mold last night, and may get a chance to try that today. I also slugged the bore last night, and it's closer to .258 than 257. It does have a couple of spots that are a bit tighter than the rest of the bore, but fortunately, not much, and the muzzle area is the tighter area which is better than having it at the breech end I guess. I may hone my sizing die a bit since I don't think that .259 sizing dies are available. Hopefully, the new mold will cast a bit bigger. I'll add a bit more antimony to the mix to help that along.

[35remington]

Sounds like you have a slow(er) twist rifle. The stubby 257420 should stabilize.

To answer some questions, you really should make a chamber cast. I've heard rumors of rather poor suitability for accurate lead bullet shooting in the .25-20 given poor chamber dimensions and throating.

Given some like I've seen, with an overlong chamber neck area and no throat, accurate lead bullet shooting is often an uphill pull.

[atr]

NH lever....
I just picked up a Savage model 23B in 25-20 so Im just starting to experiment also. I love the gun and its fun to shoot. Im going to try emailing you some reloading data from older lyman and ideal manuals....
atr

[NHlever]

I know that my rifle will chamber a round that is too long to cycle in the action, but I may do the carrier modification. The stop on the carrier can be moved back around .1 before it affects anything like the next round coming out of the mag tube. I did cast a pile of the 257420's today, and they do cast larger in diameter than my 257312 mold, so that is a help too. I've got a pile of a few hundred out there, so I hope they work. :-) I had to put a little 0000 steel wool on a tapered square stick, and turn it in the cavities to get the bullets to drop easily, but then the mold worked very well. My rifle does have 1-14" twist so I'm sure that I need more velocity, and probably a bit more diameter on the 257312's before they will shoot. I cleaned the rifle thoroughly too, and didn't see any lead from the ones I shot yesterday, but the jacketed bullets would have cleaned that out anyway.

[atr]

both savage and marlin have 1 to 14 twist rates so Im not surprised that the heavier bullets don't stabalize as well especially at the lower velocities. I shoot with 4227 powder and it seems to work well with mold number 257420 (65gr) at about 1600 to 1700 fps (cast hard). I've had no tumbling or keyholing and its accurate at 75 yards.

[atr]

oh yea....Im sizing these at 0.258

[NoDakJak]

For forty years my standard load for the 25.20 was 257312 sized to .258 with acww and a moderate charge of 2400. No more!! I gradually accumulated several more rifles chambered for the round and began testing to find a load that would work in all of them satisfactorily. Several thousand shots later I have come to the conclusion that in my guns the load with that boolit is either Lil Gun or IMR 4198. I didn't think that anything would shoot better than 4198 but when I substituted Lil Gun for 2400 my groups were instantly cut in half. My Model 23 Savage that is chambered for 32.20 shoots much smaller groups than any of my 25.20's. RATS!!! Neil

[Rodfac]

Using Lyman's 257420 with Lyman GC sized .258" ahead of 8.5 gr of 4227, I get about an inch at 50 yds through a Winchester M-65. That's with a tang mounted peep sight and a taper crimp. Remington brass, Winchester Sm Rifle primers. 8.1 gr of H110, Win Mag Sm Pistol primers, Win Nickle brass and no crimp does about the same. All boolits are cast from WW with just enuf tin to drop well. I quench from the mold drop in cold water. Regards Rodfac