Smith carbine need cases, data, load etc

[ascast]

OK Maybe not best forum, but ..house cleaning for covid, I found a smith carbine repo. I got for doing a garage roof. Also have several aftermarket 6 grooves barrels for it. All new and unfired. So, who has experience/advice? Which cases are the best, brass or plastic? How many will I need? Powder? Caps? I have molds in size but what has worked best for you? Does the stock barrel work well? or will the 6 groove work a lot better?
This is a back burner project, but I would be very happy with minute of whitetail at 150-175 yards.

thanks all

[KCSO]

Plastic seal the chamber the best and hold the most powder. In mine the plastic cases hold just over 40 grains of FFFg Swiss and seat a 340 grain bullet just fine with about 1/10 inch compression. I get very little gas leakage and accuracy is on the order of 4" at 100 yards with iron sights.

Now if the gun is new replace the nipple with a good ampco to start and order a higher replacement front sight as the gun will shoot very high. I would also order a sear spring from Dixie as the trigger on mine was 12 pounds from the box. I shaved the main spring and the sear spring to get it down to 5 pounds.

My bullet is the same 515 Lyman that I use for the Spencer and I do no sizing for the Smith but shoot them as cast at 516, they are a snug push fit in the plastic cases.

[dave951]

We shoot these in competition in the North South Skirmish Association.

Many use the plastic cases. Some use metal cases, either brass or aluminum. Both have their good and bad points. I'd stick with real black powder with RWS or Schutzen caps. For a boolit, you really need to slug the barrel you plan on using as they do vary. There are a number of molds and I'd make that choice after confirming the bore diameter. Many are 515, but I've seen them as high as 520.

With some load development, they can be quite accurate.

[varsity07840]

OK Maybe not best forum, but ..house cleaning for covid, I found a smith carbine repo. I got for doing a garage roof. Also have several aftermarket 6 grooves barrels for it. All new and unfired. So, who has experience/advice? Which cases are the best, brass or plastic? How many will I need? Powder? Caps? I have molds in size but what has worked best for you? Does the stock barrel work well? or will the 6 groove work a lot better?
This is a back burner project, but I would be very happy with minute of whitetail at 150-175 yards.

thanks all
Some may disagree with me, but I consider a Smith to be rather anemic for shooting deer at 150-175 yards.

[KCSO]

I have never shot a deer with a muzzleloader farther than 65 yards but from the way the Smith smacks the gong at 50 yards I would say it is adequate for deer out to 100 yards. You are pushing a 50 calibre 350 grain bullet at between 1000 and 1100 fps with the compressed FFFg load and it hits harder than the 44-40 200 at 1250 load. I would say 100 would be my max for the smith and the 56-50 spencer round. My hunting rig has a wood block with 10 Smith cartridges and tools in a belt pouch, this and a tin of caps and I am good to go. I use CCI caps for hunting as they are a tad hotter than the RWS that I have. I also carry a take down ram rod for removing a loaded round if the bullet gets stuck in the rifling.

[varsity07840]

I have never shot a deer with a muzzleloader farther than 65 yards but from the way the Smith smacks the gong at 50 yards I would say it is adequate for deer out to 100 yards. You are pushing a 50 calibre 350 grain bullet at between 1000 and 1100 fps with the compressed FFFg load and it hits harder than the 44-40 200 at 1250 load. I would say 100 would be my max for the smith and the 56-50 spencer round. My hunting rig has a wood block with 10 Smith cartridges and tools in a belt pouch, this and a tin of caps and I am good to go. I use CCI caps for hunting as they are a tad hotter than the RWS that I have. I also carry a take down ram rod for removing a loaded round if the bullet gets stuck in the rifling.

I wouldn't have expected that kind of velocity from 40 grains. I normally use 30 gr of 3F Swiss in my Gallager with a Lee Smith/Maynard bullet sized .517. Never ran it through a chrono but I figure it's out of the muzzle at around 800.

[ascast]

I will be ordering some cases this week.

[mazo kid]

I ordered some brass cases from Lodgewood for my Smith. I have a Rapine mold, but I think the Lee would work too. The "new" CCI musket caps are not reliable IMO. I would do some testing before taking it hunting, as your gun may do OK with them, or not. You can also switch to a regular percussion nipple and do away with misfires.

[varsity07840]

I ordered some brass cases from Lodgewood for my Smith. I have a Rapine mold, but I think the Lee would work too. The "new" CCI musket caps are not reliable IMO. I would do some testing before taking it hunting, as your gun may do OK with them, or not. You can also switch to a regular percussion nipple and do away with misfires.

Have you tried a #11 nipple on your Smith? I would think that little cap would not have the juice to make the turns and still reach the touch hole on the case with enough fire. Just curious.

[bedbugbilly]

For plastic or brass casings for the Smith - Lodgewood

Lodgewood also has push through sizers that will mount in a standard loading press to size if you need to for your Smith

Black Powder also carries the plastic tubes - cheaper than Lodgewood or S & S but I have never tried them - perhaps someone here has? Link below - go all the way to the bottom and you will see them listed.

Yore Supply offers a softer Smith case that has a lined flash hole - I ordered a 100 to try but haven't had a chance to work with them yet

Another supplier of the black plastic cartridge tubes is S & S Firearms - just google d"S & S Firearms"

Eras Gone offers a single cavity mold that duplicates the original Smith Carbine bullet. They are a special run Lee mold - he also offers other molds for original .36 and .44 bullets for cap ad ball revolvers. I have two of the Smith Eras Gone molds - keep on at our place in MI and one here in AZ - it casts a very nice slug - drops at .518. I have one of Lodgewood's push through .515 sizing dies as that seems to work well in the bore of my Pietta Smith.

Track of the Wolf also offers a six cavity special run Lee mold for a Smith Carbine bullet - I have one that came with my used Smith when I bought it - I haven't cast/used it yet but I now a lot of folks use it and it works well for them - I just preferred an original style so went with the Eras Gone.

I also just picked up recently a Lyman single cavity .516 round ball mold. Kind of hard to find in that size but they are out there - I paid very little for it and I intend to cast some up and thumb load in the black plastic tubes to try for shorter range plinking loads.

I have about 8 of the brass Smith cases but have not had the chance to try them yet. Just a quick check with a Eras Gone Smith Bullet at .518 makes me believe that they would have to be sized to .515 to get them int he brass case. Perhaps someone who has used them can be of more help on those??

I believe that Navy Arms also used to offer an Aluminum Smith Carbine casing - don't have any of them so can't speak to them. Recently on fleabay thee were some listed - someone bought them but I felt the price was a bit high on them. I haven't found anyone who offers them now but perhaps some of the N-SSA fellows would have a better grasp on them as far as if anyone is making them and how they work.

If anyone has used any of the more pliable cases with the lined flash hole that Yore Supply offers, I would like to hear what they think of them. I have no idea of what the "case life" of them will be as far as how many shots they will last. I do know that the black plastic ones work well and at the price of them, they are one of the best options. IMHO

I put the links to some of the places below. Good luck and have fun - the Smith is a fun carbine. I first shot an original over 55 years ago - unfortunately waited so many years to finally own a repro to shoot!

http://www.lodgewood.com

http://www.blackpowderva.com

http://yoresupply.com

https://erasgonebullets.webstarts.com/index.html

[toot]

they used to shoot BUFFALO years ago with them, so what has suddenly changed? puny for a deer, it is thinned skin game isn't it?

[John in PA]

I designed this bullet for N-SSA black powder match accuracy in the Smith. Deep square lube groove, longer bearing surface, gentler longer ogive on the nose with a tiny bit more weight and a "fouling collector" groove ahead of the first band. Shoots nearly 1 hole at 50 yards off the bench with 35 grains GOEX CTG or Swiss 3F. Get Tom to cut it .001" over your bore size, cast 1:20 tin:lead http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=52-375C-D.png

[varsity07840]

they used to shoot BUFFALO years ago with them, so what has suddenly changed? puny for a deer, it is thinned skin game isn't it?

With a Smith?? With all due respect, would you mind showing us some sort of documentation on that?

[bedbugbilly]

John - I took a look at your boolit a while ago after you mentioned it in another post I believe. It looks pretty impressive IMHO and at some point, I think I will have one made up. I haven't had much chance to work with my Smith yet and will be interested in seeing how the Eras Gone boolit works. Your results with the boolit you designed speaks for itself and once I get going, I have a feeing I will add the mold as I like playing with different designs.

I'll add a second to varsity - I would like to see some documentation about buffalo being taken with a Smith. The original Smith boolit was in the .355 - 360 grain weight range. During the time after the Civil
War, I'm sure that a number of Smiths may have come into the hands of Native Americans - the same as Winchesters, 45-70s, etc. They would have been limited to the original ammunition. Never say never - and I suppose it would be possible under prime circumstances to kill a buffalo with one - but afterwards, I'm thinking the Brave would have been re-named "Crazy in the Head Horse". I have shot Smiths and I the been around buffalo - personally, I would go hungry before trying it! LOL

[varsity07840]

John - I took a look at your boolit a while ago after you mentioned it in another post I believe. It looks pretty impressive IMHO and at some point, I think I will have one made up. I haven't had much chance to work with my Smith yet and will be interested in seeing how the Eras Gone boolit works. Your results with the boolit you designed speaks for itself and once I get going, I have a feeing I will add the mold as I like playing with different design

I'll add a second to varsity - I would like to see some documentation about buffalo being taken with a Smith. The original Smith boolit was in the .355 - 360 grain weight range. During the time after the Civil
War, I'm sure that a number of Smiths may have come into the hands of Native Americans - the same as Winchesters, 45-70s, etc. They would have been limited to the original ammunition. Never say never - and I suppose it would be possible under prime circumstances to kill a buffalo with one - but afterwards, I'm thinking the Brave would have been re-named "Crazy in the Head Horse". I have shot Smiths and I the been around buffalo - personally, I would go hungry before trying it! LOL

Do you recall how the Souix hunters crept up on the buffalo herd in Dances With Wolves? With a Smith, they had to crawl up behind one and shove the muzzle in its butt. Worked every time.

[bedbugbilly]

Yep . . . I recall the movie very well . . . and I also said "Never say never" . . .

But I certainly wouldn't depend on a movie as a "first person documentation" - regardless if Costner made it or not. No offense intended . . . but if it exists, it would be interesting to see the source of the documentation. If we start to use Hollywood movies as "documentation" . . then all sorts of history will be re-written . . . Winchester 94s will have been in existence way before the '73s were introduced - cause Hollywood decided they "were close enough" for a movie set in the early 1870s - The 1873 Colt revolvers would have been in existence well before 1873 'cause Hollywood decided they were "close enough" to be used in a movie set well before 1873 . . and the list goes on.

[Skipper]

Pete's vintage guns has some Smith cases:
http://petesvintagegunsandammo.com/smith-carbine-cartridge-cases/
https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-58xk6stqav/products/1183/images/7416/IMG_0056__28370.1549127041.1280.1280.JPG?c=2

[mazo kid]

Have you tried a #11 nipple on your Smith? I would think that little cap would not have the juice to make the turns and still reach the touch hole on the case with enough fire. Just curious.
Yes, I changed the nipple out shortly after getting my Smith due to the CCI Re-enactor caps not being totally reliable. I later found a few tins of older 4-wing caps I had forgotten about.

[John in PA]

BTW, I also recommend the black plastic cases. Much better seal, far less fouling in the action. And they can be reused many times. The guys I know in the N-SSA cover the flash hole with a tiny piece of Micro-pore paper tape. Keeps powder from dribbling out, and a musket cap blows right through it. Leave the old tape on, put the new piece right over it after cleaning and drying the cases. That way a gasket builds up and seals even better. 4-5 thicknesses of old tape is perfectly fine, though all but the last one obviously already has a hole in it.