The death penalty

[dtknowles]

Many Christians support the death penalty but not all.

Some sins are certainly deserving of death but should Christians ever put a person to death. What do you think Jesus would say about Christians carrying out a death sentence?

If on a jury a Christian votes guilty and the accused is executed but is actually innocent did that Christian commit murder.

Is beyond a reasonable doubt an appropriate measure for a death penalty case? Shouldn't it be beyond the shadow of a doubt?

Tim

[Outpost75]

The ASPD prison population is truly evil and cannot be rehabilitated.

Read:

Inside the Criminal Mind by Stanton Samenow

Also:

Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us, Robert Hare

The Sociopath Next Door, by Martha Stout

There is a predictable desire on the part of most Christians to establish rapport and mutuality with others, even when we know what's in their "jacket." This desire is a huge Achilles heel for untrained non-criminals, which causes untold amounts of hurt whenever it is allowed to define how an understanding of reality is established between say, a psychotherapist or nurse with a sociopath or psychopath. The bad guys are more adept at playing this game than the good guys. Female therapists and COs were generally the most reluctant to accept that when inmates were being nice to them that they were being worked. Whenever an arrestee or sentenced offender entered the system expressing claims of mental illness and requesting medication (usually for bipolar disorder, which lends itself readily to a misinterpretation by the average therapist outside of a coke run as manic behavior, with attendant anger and explosiveness) a clinical psychiatrist would be called to interview them and determine if they truly were mentally ill. During the interview, if caught lying, the best ones wouldn't miss a beat and would switch to a new lie in mid-sentence.

A serial murderer whose interview I witnessed behind a 2-way mirror came from a large family, with a number of siblings being doctors and attorneys. When their behavior was contrasted to his, he felt dissed and pointed out that he was good at what he did, too.

One young inmate interviewed was pleased at himself for having cut a woman's head off, after raping and stabbing her to death. His reason? Because he'd never done it before. He added that he felt "like God" when he was doing a crime, and could do anything he wanted to, to anyone he wanted to do it too.

A case which still gives me nightmares involved a guy who owned a security company and installed systems in people's homes who was also a burglar. On his last burglary, he had finished picking up all the valuables when he discovered the male homeowner sleeping on his sofa. He "skinned him". I don't recall whether he was alive or dead at the time. When asked why he did it, he responded "I had the time."

The current emphasis in evaluating inmates is based upon "criminal thinking errors," based on cognitive behavioral principals, which basically postulates that if the system can help an inmate identify, then challenge and replace the thoughts and behaviors which lead them to eventually act on their criminal fantasies, recidivism would be reduced, as well as the level of seriousness of the recidivistic offenses.

https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.neias.org/resource/resmgr/bestpractices18/materials/8t_criminal_thinking_antisoc.pdf

While I'm hopeful that the thinking errors program has helped, but I have real doubts about the efficacy of any educational type program for the ASPD inmate population. ASPDs do not think like us, and we should stop pretending that they do because the eventual consequences of our own stupidity in doing so is simply too great to ignore.

My two-bits are that a significant component in the make-up of the average ASPD is genetic, but I admit there are likely flaws in adopting that view, unless those genetics occur within a bell shaped curve distribution pattern in which "a tendency toward sociopathy" anchors the left part of the curve, there is no way to explain what I would label "learned or acquired sociopathy" or perhaps "latent sociopathy".

I eventually came to believe it is likely ASPDs represent a flawed subspecies of humanity. There is a feral nature within them that is scary to any charged with catching them, incarcerating and rehabilitating them. That feral component of their personality is something they typically try to hide (except for those already in max-max and max-close - they've embraced it, they live it, they feed it and work hard to grow it, which is a hoot to them), and it always surprises me the number of veteran law enforcement folks who don't spot it, even when it was in the early stages of having "come out to play".

I've always believed in the concept of evil, but until an adult had never looked a proud disciple of Satan in the face... I will tell you straight up, that evil walks among us and the truly evil ones must die because they are beyond redemption.

264343

[MT Gianni]

Jesus asked John to accompany him when he went to Gethsemane. Peter had a sword with him as he chopped of the ear of one of those who came to arrest Jesus. He left his house normally and the sword was not on his person to cut fruit with.
Should we lynch people? I believe the answer is no. Can we love a person while realizing that every second he is on this planet he is a mortal risk to others? Yes we can even though it means making a decision to remove him from the living. If war, defending one's life and those we love is not murder than making a collective decision or electing a Judge to make that decision to remove someone from the living isn't either, IMO.
Would I volunteer to be on the firing squad? No. Would I act properly if so assigned? Yes.
As Outpost said, Evil exists, I have seen some and they are past feeling and acting on the love we might have for them.

[Outpost75]

For those interested in the clinical definition of Anti-Social Personality Disorder (ASPD) in the DSM-5 here is the link:

https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/antisocial-personality-disorder-dsm--5-301.7-(f60.2)

If you take the time to read the entire section, you have a crystal clear definition of human evil.

[Hickory]

I will kill a rabid dog or skunk because it has the potential for bitting not only other animals but people as well. It stops the threat of further harm.
The death penalty dose the same thing, it stops the threat of further harm to others including other prisoners.

[flyingmonkey35]

I have personally looked into the eyes of pure evil.

When I was a younger man I worked at a jail. And we had a inmate thier named X.

He was awaiting sentencing on a triple murder charge. In our state then off to another state for more of the same.

When I met him for the first time I could see he lost his soul. Their was nothing there but hate and spite and himself.

No regard for anything other then himself.

It is the only time in my life where I could have killed a man in cold blood and went to bed knowing the world would have been a safer place without him in it.

I say this to you all now.
PRISON DOSE NOT WORK.

It dose not rehabilitate. IT DOSE NOT change someone life for the better.

Jails work as they are a temporary punishment.

"I'll I know is he will never have the chance to kill another little girl again." . Private Rico upon witnessing the execution of a murderer.
Robert hemline starship troopers



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[Petrol & Powder]

Take religion out of the question. Religious beliefs have no place in our criminal justice system.

If you believe the government has the authority to put a convicted person in prison for the rest of his/her life (effectively taking that person's life) then killing the person is no worse (and I could make an argument that it is actually less cruel).

And all of the above members that have posted about the different forms of evil and the ineffectiveness of incarceration when dealing with evil people - ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.
There are evil people that we will NEVER fix. There is nothing to be gained by keeping them alive and only risk and cost. We, as a society, are far better off killing them and moving on.

Frankly, I believe the death penalty is underutilized. There are sociopaths and psychopaths that have not been convicted of murder but we should still kill them.

SO, we have specific crimes that may be punished by death. A person charged with a crime, given a trial with due process and convicted; is subject to the penalties authorized by the law. If the law provides the death penalty as one of the permissible punishments for that crime, so be it.

[JimB..]

I’ll tell this story here for the first time, I hope doing so helps me, if it helps you so much the better.

You know the joke about the old man and the flood?
An old man was standing on his front porch and the flood waters were coming up onto the porch.
His neighbor yelled to him “hang on, I’ll be over in a minute to drive you out with my family.” The man replied “no need I trust the Lord to save me.”
As the water rises he retreats to the second floor and while standing by a window a man in a boat yells to him “get in my boat and I’ll take you to safety.” The man replied “no need, I trust the Lord to save me.”
As the water rises higher he climbs onto the peak of his roof where a helicopter sees him and lowers a man to save him, but again the man sends them away saying “no need I trust the Lord to save me.”
The water continues to rise and the man drowns.
When he meets the Lord he asks what he did wrong that the Lord did not save him and the Lord replied that he’d sent his neighbor, a boat, and a helicopter.

So my story.
In college a dear friend of mine was raped by 2 young men at a fraternity party. She was visiting a mutual friend at another school when it happened. Without going into details, please just accept this as fact. She asked me to visit her the next weekend and told me what had happened. It was the late 1980’s and this sort of thing was almost impossible to prosecute, there was nothing that could be done. The event completely changed the course of her life, and not for the better, but I’m getting ahead of myself. I spoke to the mutual friend that she’d gone to visit and was able to learn the identity of one of the men. I went to visit the next week fully prepared to murder him. Nobody knew me on campus, nobody knew that I’d be there, I’d be a stranger at a big party, no muss no fuss. It didn’t happen like that, my friend just happened to see me and intervened, she begging me to walk away. I got into a fight with the guy, but that was all. I have no doubt that he raped other women, that’s sorta a thing with rapists, they keep raping.

Now one day I’m going to die, and when I approach the Lord I worry that there will be a group of young women asking the Lord why he did not save them, and I’m afraid that he may just say “I sent Jim.”

It sounds kinda dumb, it has no scriptural basis, and yet I can’t help think about the unknown women whose lives were subsequently destroyed because I did not act.

This case was easy, there was no question about the act or the perpetrator. I have never been on a jury in a capital case, but if that ever happens I will not be afraid of sentencing someone to die.

Sorry for the somewhat rambling post, this has been gnawing at me for the past few months since I learned that another dear friend was recently raped and that the rapist in her case was not charged.

[dtknowles]

The ASPD prison population is truly evil and cannot be rehabilitated.

..…...

I've always believed in the concept of evil, but until an adult had never looked a proud disciple of Satan in the face... I will tell you straight up, that evil walks among us and the truly evil ones must die because they are beyond redemption.

264343

You did not answer the question but seem to be suggesting that you support the death penalty.

The question was "Some sins are certainly deserving of death but should Christians ever put a person to death. What do you think Jesus would say about Christians carrying out a death sentence?"

Tim

[dtknowles]

You are all dodging the question.

"Some sins are certainly deserving of death but should Christians ever put a person to death. What do you think Jesus would say about Christians carrying out a death sentence?"

Can anyone find support for the death penalty in the New Testament?

I support the death penalty but I am not a Christian. The Catholic Church when I belong opposed and still does oppose the death penalty. Clearly confessed killers and rapists can be executed with a clear conscience. Accused who proclaim their innocence should not be executed unless the evidence is beyond question.

Those of you who love Jesus as your Lord and Savior but who support the death penalty, how do you reconcile the contradiction?

Tim

[Dapaki]

.....Those of you who love Jesus as your Lord and Savior but who support the death penalty, how do you reconcile the contradiction?

Tim
I cannot and that is why I no longer support the death penalty. I dont support abortion either.

[1hole]

Tim, seems you've been quite for too long but once again you pose a pot stirring question based on a false premise; even you should understand that a legal execution is not murder and a state executioner is not a murder and trail juries are not principles in a murder.

God set a standard for violations of law; "an eye for an eye", etc. Contrary to faked howls of "liberal" outrage, that Biblical concept conveys the principle of a fair examination and, if convicted, setting a just penalty not exceeding what's right for the crime. The just penalty for a capital crime is death.

The Commandment "thou shall not kill" is an incorrect translation of the text, it simply means we are not to commit murder and most translations since the KJV do get it correct. A legal trial and conviction of a capital crime rightly ends with execution but, as specified above, a legal execution is by no means a murder.

Nor is killing in defense of self or others murder, nor is impersonal killing in times of war murder.

But you're a smart guy, I suspect you already knew all of that, didn't you?

[DocSavage]

I'm no biblical scholar,but in the age of DNA and fancy scientific test guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is a shoe in. As a Christian should I ever be called as a juror for a capital case and the evidence shows guilt beyond a reasonable doubt I have no problem voting for the death penalty.
That's not going to happen here in Ma as we tend to send our murderers to life in prison. Plus being 70 now I don't have to do jury duty any more.

[dtknowles]

Tim, seems you've been quite for too long but once again you pose a pot stirring question based on a false premise; even you should understand that a legal execution is not murder and a state executioner is not a murder and trail juries are not principles in a murder.

God set a standard for violations of law; "an eye for an eye", etc. Contrary to faked howls of "liberal" outrage, that Biblical concept conveys the principle of a fair examination and, if convicted, setting a just penalty not exceeding what's right for the crime. The just penalty for a capital crime is death.

The Commandment "thou shall not kill" is an incorrect translation of the text, it simply means we are not to commit murder and most translations since the KJV do get it correct. A legal trial and conviction of a capital crime rightly ends with execution but, as specified above, a legal execution is by no means a murder.

Nor is killing in defense of self or others murder, nor is impersonal killing in times of war murder.

But you're a smart guy, I suspect you already knew all of that, didn't you?

Again you don't read the question.

Some sins are certainly deserving of death but should Christians ever put a person to death. What do you think Jesus would say about Christians carrying out a death sentence?"

Is the legal execution of an innocent person murder?

It happens but mostly only to Black people, sort of legal lynching.

Tim

[Hickory]

Christians do not execute people.
Executions are carried out by the duly constituted authority, which is the state. Unless its a federal crime and then the federal government takes care of that business.
Your question is answered.

[Outpost75]

You did not answer the question but seem to be suggesting that you support the death penalty.

The question was "Some sins are certainly deserving of death but should Christians ever put a person to death. What do you think Jesus would say about Christians carrying out a death sentence?"

Tim

I have testified in capital murder trials. I have been a jury foreman on murder cases. I have served my country in combat. Those people who are truly evil should not be allowed to live. I have known some that I would be fully willing to kill myself. I DO SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY.
End of story. I feel no regret.

If you cannot comprehend, then I understand that you have never had to deal with true evil up close and personal. I sincerely pray that our Lord forever protects you and your family forever from the evil ones and that you never need to make that choice. Amen.

[William Yanda]

You are all dodging the question.

"Some sins are certainly deserving of death but should Christians ever put a person to death. What do you think Jesus would say about Christians carrying out a death sentence?"

Can anyone find support for the death penalty in the New Testament?

I support the death penalty but I am not a Christian. The Catholic Church when I belong opposed and still does oppose the death penalty. Clearly confessed killers and rapists can be executed with a clear conscience. Accused who proclaim their innocence should not be executed unless the evidence is beyond question.

Those of you who love Jesus as your Lord and Savior but who support the death penalty, how do you reconcile the contradiction?

Tim

Tim
Paul exlained that God established human government to punish evildoers. Execution for convicted criminals is not murder.
Respectfully,

[ioon44]

Jesus asked John to accompany him when he went to Gethsemane. John had a sword with him as he chopped of the ear of one of those who came to arrest Jesus. He left his house normally and the sword was not on her person to cut fruit with.
Should we lynch people? I believe the answer is no. Can we love a person while realizing that every second he is on this planet he is a mortal risk to others? Yes we can even though it means making a decision to remove him from the living. If war, defending one's life and those we love is not murder than making a collective decision or electing a Judge to make that decision to remove someone from the living isn't either, IMO.
Would I volunteer to be on the firing squad? No. Would I act properly if so assigned? Yes.
As Outpost said, Evil exists, I have seen some and they are past feeling and acting on the love we might have for them.



You need to reread the account of Gethsemane, it was Peter not John who had the sword and he was not a "her".

[1hole]

Again you don't read the question.

I answered your question in its broad application to leave you less wiggle room and decrease your well known wrangling.


Some sins are certainly deserving of death but should Christians ever put a person to death.

What do you think Jesus would say about Christians carrying out a death sentence?"

First, I've never known a Christian who carried out a death sentence and don't expect to, that's the legal responsibility of the community at large.

I think Jesus would say, "Read the Bible, it's my words on life, and follow its guidance" and I've already covered that.


Is the legal execution of an innocent person murder?

That's just too silly a question to bother with responding.


It happens but mostly only to Black people, sort of legal lynching.

Christians, per se, do not run and therefore are not responsible for the mindless deeds or misdeeds of a flawed civil legal system long controlled by secular humanists so we don't have to answer for the courts. But, the truth is our legal system is far more likely to release legally and properly convicted black criminals than any other race.

For you to willy-nilly set up a contorted hypothetical that equates a court ordered execution as a "lynching" as if we are responsible for the state's errors is both dishonest and quite a logic overreach.

You're a "compassionate believer" (of something?); what would you ask us to do? I mean would you suggest Christians arm themselves and rise up to storm the gates of prisons in the name of our God and stop all executions or are you just casually bloviating about nothing meaningful again?

[djryan13]

The death penalty system is broken. Reports show it costs more (appeals, etc) than if you just put them in prison for life. Until that is resolved, my vote is for life in prison. I don’t want my tax dollars spent on appeals. Add to this that there have been too many falsely imprisoned folks, death penalty doesn’t make sense.

If you can fix the above, I have no moral issue with the death penalty.

[bolivor]

I was wondering how long it would be before someone pointed out the error in the first post,as ioon44 stated in his post it was Peter and not John that did the cutting and Peter was also male

[farmbif]

don't know about all the theology but my girlfriend in college was chopped up by a drug crazed psycho with an axe two days after I left town for a job interview, he was caught and given life but his fellow prisoners took him out while at Rayford. karma I guess there may be something to it.

[dtknowles]

...…….You're a "compassionate believer" (of something?); what would you ask us to do? I mean would you suggest Christians arm themselves and rise up to storm the gates of prisons in the name of our God and stop all executions or are you just casually bloviating about nothing meaningful again?

This is what I would have you do:

Stop supporting the death penalty and follow the lead of other states that have stop performing executions until the problems in the system are corrected.

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2016/feb/2/past-three-years-governors-three-states-declare-moratorium-executions/

Change the rules of evidence for death penalty case from "beyond a reasonable doubt" to "beyond a shadow of a doubt." for a death sentence to be applied other wise life in prison with no parole.

Christian ministers need to preach against executions just like the Pope does.

The only countries that execute more people than the U.S. are China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, Iraq, and Egypt. Not the kind of company we should be keeping.

Tim

[dtknowles]

…..Frankly, I believe the death penalty is underutilized. There are sociopaths and psychopaths that have not been convicted of murder but we should still kill them..

You think we should execute people who have not been and probably can't be convicted due to a lack of evidence.

Tim

[Petrol & Powder]

You think we should execute people who have not been and probably can't be convicted due to a lack of evidence.

Tim

No.
I think the penalty of death should be applied to crimes other than murder.

And while we're at it, A theological question such as yours can only lead to circular arguments - which I suspect was your goal in the first post of this thread.

[Petrol & Powder]

The death penalty system is broken. Reports show it costs more (appeals, etc) than if you just put them in prison for life. Until that is resolved, my vote is for life in prison. I don’t want my tax dollars spent on appeals. Add to this that there have been too many falsely imprisoned folks, death penalty doesn’t make sense.

If you can fix the above, I have no moral issue with the death penalty.

The death penalty system is broken. Reports show it costs more (appeals, etc) than if you just put them in prison for life.

I reject the premise that the death penalty "is broken". Furthermore, those,.....I guess ...? ... "reports"??? are from liberal anti-death penalty people that will write any lie in support of their argument.

Add to this that there have been too many falsely imprisoned folks, death penalty doesn’t make sense.


I reject that notion as well. It is extraordinarily difficult to convict someone. The standard for a criminal conviction is "beyond a reasonable doubt". That is the highest standard in our legal system, and not one easily reached. Many a guilty man has gone free not because they were innocent but simply because the state failed to overcome that incredibly high standard needed to convict. If you need an example - O.J. Simpson was found not guilty of double murder. There are few sane people that will argue Simpson is innocent. The state simply failed to meet their burden.

As for the cost of incarcerating someone, the liberals will argue it costs well in excess of $20K a year to incarcerate someone UNLESS we're talking about the death penalty and then magically it costs almost nothing to incarcerate someone for 60 years.

[dverna]

Tim, I have also seen pure evil. I do not know why God creates such people but He has. God created all of us to be imperfect...but that is another story. Evil is different.

I wonder about God's purpose in permitting evil, or if Satan is at work...but in the end it does not matter. Evil is there and we must deal with it.

To address your question, I do not know of any justification for execution in the NT. So, we are not given "permission" or authority to execute murderers etc by the Bible. Most Christians are christians….we follow the Word when it suits us. I would vote to execute a person I believe should not be allowed to live. I have no Biblical support for it, but I do not care.

BTW, I am not aware of any passages in the NT that strictly forbid the execution of people who have been found guilty of murder, treason, etc.

Did Jesus give us "wiggle room"?

[djryan13]

While I agree there is room for more study, here is one neutral source saying there is evidence it’s more expensive:
https://ballotpedia.org/Fact_check/Is_the_death_penalty_more_expensive_than_life_in_p rison

Even one case of someone wrongly convicted is too much IMO... Especially if that person was me or mine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage_of_justice#United_States

[WebMonkey]

Many Christians support the death penalty but not all.

Some sins are certainly deserving of death but should Christians ever put a person to death. What do you think Jesus would say about Christians carrying out a death sentence?

If on a jury a Christian votes guilty and the accused is executed but is actually innocent did that Christian commit murder.

Is beyond a reasonable doubt an appropriate measure for a death penalty case? Shouldn't it be beyond the shadow of a doubt?

Tim

if you want to know what Jesus would say, read the bible.

Jesus, the word of God made flesh.

the bible explains several scenarios involving 'putting an accused to death'.

as for 'show me in the new testament'.

unless you are jewish, you don't split up God's word into 'this is for me, this is not for me'.

the new testament did not abolish the law. Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, or 'complete' it.

so old testament is just as important as the new testament.
the new testament is FULL of AFFIRMING the commands/law of the old testament.

now, if you want to take the dietary restriction given to THE HEBREW people as a reason to discard everything else God commanded, then i can't help ya there. those are obvious 'people specific' commands given to make sure the hebrew people did not melt right into the false god worshiping surrounding populace.

i'll leave it at that since i'm not trying to fight, just put forth an answer based on God's word rather than my own.

good luck

[flyingmonkey35]

I wrote a paper in this topic

How to fix the death penalty.

Once the suspect is tried a by a jury of his/her peers. And found guilty BEYOND a reasonable doubt.

The case goes imeadtily is applied to be reviewed by a panel of randomly selected judges that are Not in the state.

They independently review the case and make a ruling of any misconduct. They have 1 week to do this.

If the judges rule the trial fair.

No more the 1 week later the execution is performed.

This is as fair as I can make it.

We as humans are always susceptible to error. And I firmly believe god knows that and will judge us fairly.

And jesus did get angry, and was known to pull out the whip. He went ballistic on the money changers in the temple.

If he ever came across a child molester I'm pretty sure the guy would be having a meeting with jesus father that night.

My 2 cents



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[Petrol & Powder]

Lets not push aside the other factors of the death penalty.

The sociopath that is allowed to live will pose a constant threat to the guards, other inmates and society in general. He will pose a constant threat of escape.
Then there is the very real possibility that he will attract a following (these people are incredibly manipulative and cunning) and persuade others that he has been wrongfully convicted. Those followers are often shallow celebrities and clueless liberals that desperately WANT to believe there was some injustice (they have no identity of their own - they need a liberal cause).

The monetary cost of the death penalty is a small price to pay when compared the damage these people inflict by their very existence.

And if you buy into the argument that it is expensive to seek the death penalty then it's only a small step to then say it is expensive to seek incarceration. I guess by that logic we should just abandon all accountability - it would be cheaper.

[Petrol & Powder]

Allow me to point out that Mumia Abu-Jamal, the murderer that killed Officer Daniel Faulkner; is alive today largely because a bunch of clueless liberals, many of them celebrities, came to his side.

When you kill a rabid wild dog you don't memorialize it. You just kill it and move on.

[.429&H110]

In the Gospels Our Lord said He is our Shepherd.
Sheep don't like sheepdogs very much.
And there are wolves out there.
Anybody dumb enough to re-introduce wolves
should spend some time alone with them.
Wolves visited us in North Pole AK some nights
with small children at the bus stop in the dark.
Never a problem, wolves run from light
and armed housewives.
My wife would say I am a Christian
and as for the wolves shoot shovel shut up.
We can't "hunt" near houses.
Gov't thinks they're cute. Game animals.
Death penalty? Yes, if. Prove it.
YMMV

[.429&H110]

My Dad was against the death penalty.
Here is what he taught me as a teen:

Two friends pick you up. You get in the back seat.
Stop at gas station passenger gets out goes in shoots clerk
Away you go, cops pull you over.
Shooter pleads to whatever, out in seven years.
Driver pleads to whatever, out in seven years.
But you in the back seat?
You can't plead, you didn't do anything!
You are accessory before murder, death penalty.
And it happens. Really.
Think before you get in, or just walk home.

His Dad told him same thing.
I avoided some drunk crashes from that advice.
Advice may have saved my life.
So I told my kids...

[Petrol & Powder]

My Dad was against the death penalty.
Here is what he taught me as a teen:

Two friends pick you up. You get in the back seat.
Stop at gas station passenger gets out goes in shoots clerk
Away you go, cops pull you over.
Shooter pleads to whatever, out in seven years.
Driver pleads to whatever, out in seven years.
But you in the back seat?
You can't plead, you didn't do anything!
You are accessory before murder, death penalty.
And it happens. Really.
Think before you get in, or just walk home.

His Dad told him same thing.
I avoided some drunk crashes from that advice.
Advice may have saved my life.
So I told my kids...

That is lacking in logic and so far from reality that it's hard to even begin.

Two friends pick you up. You get in the back seat.
Stop at gas station passenger gets out goes in shoots clerk


One - you need to get better "friends".
Two - Did you KNOW the passenger was going to shoot the clerk? If you didn't, you're not an accessory before the fact and even if you did and couldn't escape the situation before it occurred, you're still not an accessory before the fact.

Away you go, cops pull you over.
Shooter pleads to whatever, out in seven years.

The "Shooter" doesn't GET to plead to "whatever". I have No idea where that concept comes from. The shooter will be charged with murder and maybe robbery. If the prosecution offers a plea, it's unlikely to be a plea to double parking. The concept that some prosecutor would offer a seven year plea to murder is outside of reality.

If the guy in the back seat has half a brain, he will cooperate with the police and prosecutor immediately, starting at the arrest and continuing all the way through the trial of his, I guess.....??? "friends???

Anyone that believes that fact pattern would result in that outcome is operating outside of reality.

[abunaitoo]

In this day and mind set, most people just don't know right from wrong.
Those sitting on a jury could have the same problem.
If the murder were black, caught in the act, was not on drugs or mentally impaired, they would get away with it.
If they were white, it would be a different story.
Kind of sad.
Majority of the time, when they have an execution, people don't hear the details about what happened, and how he was involved.
Thank the media for that.
So people feel sorry for them, and think it's cruel to take their life.
They forget about what the victim and family went through.
Again the media is responsible for that.
The system is not perfect, because people are involved.
I do believe in the death penalty.

[303Guy]

My country does not have the death penalty.

A man came home to find his whole family shot to death. The police decided he did it since he was the one still alive. He was tired by jury, found guilty and imprisoned for life. Thirteen years later a pressure group managed to get him a re-trial. He was found not guilty and released (the father did it before turning the gun on himself).

When asked whether he would be given compensation for improper imprisonment, the minister of justice said no, because the jury could be wrong. So why was he imprisoned in the first place if the jury could be wrong?

Another case in another country. A man is convicted of murder (multiple) and the judge could not bring himself to sentence him to death. He served his 'life sentence' and was duly released. A family took him in and he subsequently murdered the son then raped and murdered the daughter.

The thing is, there has never in the history of mankind been a repeat offence committed by an executed criminal. However, there have been many executed innocents.

Then again, there are those very obviously 'evil' criminals for which there is no shadow of doubt. Personally, I don't care whether the person 'isn't responsible for his/her actions' due to insanity or something.

My opinion on the death penalty is that as long as a jury system is in place, one should not have the death penalty. That said, I do support the death penalty but only for special cases where there can be zero margin of error, zero shadow of doubt and not only for murder.

On an aside, I think one cannot have the death penalty for rape because that would encourage rapists to murder their victims. I must say though that how I feel about rapists is that they should be executed.

[Ickisrulz]

In this day and mind set, most people just don't know right from wrong.


Sure they do.

[1hole]

This whole topic is illogical and therefore so silly I can't help but believe it's anything but trolling. Nevertheless ....

Jesus said to "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's" about taxes. He also said to obey those who have been granted legal power over us. I believe those directives to obey the laws of the land extends to criminal law as well and we do KNOW Caesar's government executed killers, don't we? So, I wonder why some self-styled "innerlecsul" folk who should know better feel free to ignore all that and twist scripture out of shape in order to reach warped touchy-feely PC positions they obviously have no right to claim?

If America's limp-wristed, candy-arzzs lib screamers worried half as much about victims who have been brutalized and killed by killer goblins as they do about being sweet to brutal killers there would likely be enough political support for a proper punishment of offenders to make the legal system meaningful.

God - and any man with a functioning brain - knows the lib's "Flower Power For All" and "Make Punishment Brief and Comfortable for Brutal Creeps" social plans haven't done any good for goblin's past or future victims, nor will continuing to expand the lib's costly application of free-love and tolerance for creeps ever make anything better for anyone but the creeps - THAT'S why we have so many repeat offenders!

Execution is a hard thing. It isn't done quickly, casually or without very strong supporting evidence - evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. But, as in OJ Simpson's case, even with plain evidence of a heinous knife murder, a lot of murderous/rapist creeps are still set free. And a lot of the creeps are black, as are most of their victims.

I hate it when anyone is deliberately killed .... especially those who were victims. So, it's to the victims, past and future, I extend my Christian compassion and not so much for goblins who are unhappy about getting caught, rightly convicted and put out of our misery by the law. The correct penalty for a capital crime is loss of life, period. And, rivers of lib tears for poor ol' goblins aside, I have NO misapprehensions about standing before the Lord's judgement seat to discuss that!

[Petrol & Powder]

This whole topic is illogical and therefore so silly I can't help but believe it's anything but trolling. .............!
/\ You are absolutely right /\

[1hole]

You think we should execute people who have not been and probably can't be convicted due to a lack of evidence.

Tim

"You think we should ..."; goodness Timmy, you're reading between non-existent lines with that crack.

You're really smart, why not at least base your wildly degrading lies on what has actually been said rather than dreaming up foolishness and putting your words into other people's mouth; not only is that dishonest it's unsanitary. No one here (or anywhere else) has ever said or even suggested anything that justifies such a slimy claim as that and you know it.

[Texas by God]

The death penalty works. It prevents THAT convicted person from ever committing another crime. DUH. It should be done within a year of conviction with a single bullet to the head. Now you know where I stand.

[M-Tecs]

https://biblereasons.com/death-penalty/

https://www.gotquestions.org/death-penalty.html

[largom]

The death penalty works. It prevents THAT convicted person from ever committing another crime. DUH. It should be done within a year of conviction with a single bullet to the head. Now you know where I stand.

Agree, but hanging would be better.

[dtknowles]

https://biblereasons.com/death-penalty/

https://www.gotquestions.org/death-penalty.html

This one is a bit hard to accept:

"Romans 13:1-4 Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience."

Stalin, Mao, Pinochet, to name just a few who stuck fear in people doing right.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

This one is a bit hard to accept:

"Romans 13:1-4 Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience."

Stalin, Mao, Pinochet, to name just a few who stuck fear in people doing right.

Tim

The whole Romans passage quoted above only applies when the ruler is doing what is right. A ruler is no longer "God's authority" when he oppress the people. People no longer are required to obey laws that are contrary to God's commands (there are passages saying this). The original audience would have understood this, as do thinking Bible readers today.

[wv109323]

Christ was crucified ,capital punishment, under the Roman law that was in effect at that time. Apostle Paul beheaded under the same law. Both were innocent of the crimes they were accused.
God ordains earthly governments and capital punishment should be part of their penal systems. At all times through history there have been people that can not live civilly amoung other residents. Without the death penality these are a tremendous burden and a risk to society.
I think the death penality should be beyond a shadow of doubt. With that punishment should be sure and swift. With today's forensics very few would be punished innocently.
Without capital punishment you get what we have today. Criminals that can never be returned to society at a burden to taxpayers. Also our prisons become a school to gangs and a society of thugs that are uncontrolled.
What future does a convicted felon have but to return to a life of crime. No one will hire him, his family will shy away and he is left to persue a life of crime and usually educated in the prison he just left.

[tankgunner59]

I am a Christian and I would love to give you my answer. However, after reading many of your posts it is my informed opinion that the only thing you want is to find a way to start an argument and NO answer is good enough for you. So my suggestion is that you ask Jesus His opinion for yourself, then there will be no need to post these loaded questions here and waste our time! No need to reply, I'm not interested to read your response.

[ioon44]

I am a Christian and I would love to give you my answer. However, after reading many of your posts it is my informed opinion that the only thing you want is to find a way to start an argument and NO answer is good enough for you. So my suggestion is that you ask Jesus His opinion for yourself, then there will be no need to post these loaded questions here and waste our time! No need to reply, I'm not interested to read your response.

After reading all the post I would have to agree with this one.

[1hole]

Ah, Tanker, you make a good argument but he's a "liberal"! No common sense truths can refute his pursuit of human perfection in an imperfect world.

HE is the kind of social dreamers who have led to brutal tyrants seeking perfection of life as they see perfection but they don't even know which public potty they should use!

Loopy idealists have led American's educators to twist and distort facts until they have nothing solid left to stand on. Then, in turn, they pass their own bewilderment to successive generations of ignorant kids. Educators passing their baton of social stupidity has been going on so long that ignorance of foundational truths has caused many kids to lose their way. Kids grow up but fewer and fewer of them know there really is a difference between right and wrong so meaningful punishment of anyone for anything at all becomes scary to them.

Our rainbow banner idealists want us to follow the socialist dreams of their own radical "free thinker" leaders. But, as Seattle just proved, when day dreamers do get power, the people who made it possible soon see power hungry Stalins, Pol Pots, Hitlers, etc., fighting amongst themselves to become the brutal master of everyone.

Bottom line, evil is real and it's not going away. Evil can't safely be appeased for a moment of "peace in our time". We can't stop evil with any simple punishment but if civilization abandons the moral protections that have made civilization possible we will, as seen in CHAZ, see things get much worse ... and we'll see it quickly!

Nothing has ever had the power of Christianity to make things better for all men. Denying its truths always leads to social degeneration; always. Please God, save America from well intended day dreamers who don't know right from wrong themselves but love us so much they will kill us all if necessary to make everything "better" for the survivors in pursuit of their version of social perfection!

[Win94ae]

You wouldn't have Christianity, if it weren't for the death penalty... and if Jesus wasn't innocent; again you would not have Christianity.

Just saying.

[dtknowles]

The whole Romans passage quoted above only applies when the ruler is doing what is right. A ruler is no longer "God's authority" when he oppress the people. People no longer are required to obey laws that are contrary to God's commands (there are passages saying this). The original audience would have understood this, as do thinking Bible readers today.

This makes sense, God's rules first then Man's. If they conflict the go with God's rules.

I don't think there was ever a ruler or government over a large population that did not oppress some part of the people. Can you name a ruler who you consider carries "God's authority?"

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

This makes sense, God's rules first then Man's. If they conflict the go with God's rules.

I don't think there was ever a ruler or government over a large population that did not oppress some part of the people. Can you name a ruler who you consider carries "God's authority?"

Tim

While no ruler is 100% perfect, some do much better than others.

The United States, overall, is governed in such a way that we discourage crime and punish it when it happens.

To punish murder, rape/battery and theft is God's work--even if the instrument of that punishment is corrupt itself.

[mattw]

Personally I think the death penalty should be used more often... Having said that the unlimited appeals really should be controlled. But, the first conviction needs to be the correct one. Targeting a technicality is not a defense, and to appeal on one after another is not a good thing... it is abuse of the system.

There are evil people... there are evil people that should die! I knew, in passing, a guy that would drug and rape young girls and finally killed 3 of them because he became afraid someone would talk. His web grew to large. I knew he was off, way off... he would do things that normal people had enough morals not to do in general, like walk up behind a girl or woman in a checkout line and openly grope them and assume that they would not scream or alert someone. Over time he sliced and bled a few pets here and there and it just advanced to people. More or less, he hid the details of his misdeeds well and was proud of them at the same time.

I do not think you can fix people like that, short of a frontal lobotomy. Had state funny farms not all been shuttered, he likely would have ended up in one rather than spending the rest of his life in prison. Thus, maybe the case for real sanctioned institutions should be made... but that is to good for some.

[dtknowles]

While no ruler is 100% perfect, some do much better than others.

The United States, overall, is governed in such a way that we discourage crime and punish it when it happens.

To punish murder, rape/battery and theft is God's work--even if the instrument of that punishment is corrupt itself.

So do these corrupt instruments have "God's authority?"

Would not "God's authority" have a more even hand with punishments and not let money, politics, race or class have such a big impact in arrests, charges, plea deals and sentences?

I don't think our country acts with "God's authority." I think it acts according to whim of those at the top of the political structures.

We need to punish and even execute criminals but we need more justice.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

So do these corrupt instruments have "God's authority?"

Would not "God's authority" have a more even hand with punishments and not let money, politics, race or class have such a big impact in arrests, charges, plea deals and sentences?

I don't think our country acts with "God's authority." I think it acts according to whim of those at the top of the political structures.

We need to punish and even execute criminals but we need more justice.

Tim

"God's authority" is not meant to suggest everything that person does is correct, morally or otherwise.

Someone can do the work of God without knowing they are doing so or even caring about God's work at all. An extreme example is that Assyria and Babylon were used to punish Israel and Judah (respectively) and they were much more evil in comparison.

The Romans passage reminds us that God allows humans to govern themselves, hopefully within the guidelines he has given. Christians are called upon to obey the law, in so much as it aligns with what God has said. Keep in mind, when the authorities told the Apostles not to preach the Gospel, they quickly disobeyed the law.

[dtknowles]

"God's authority" is not meant to suggest everything that person does is correct, morally or otherwise.

Someone can do the work of God without knowing they are doing so or even caring about God's work at all. An extreme example is that Assyria and Babylon were used to punish Israel and Judah (respectively) and they were much more evil in comparison.

The Romans passage reminds us that God allows humans to govern themselves, hopefully within the guidelines he has given. Christians are called upon to obey the law, in so much as it aligns with what God has said. Keep in mind, when the authorities told the Apostles not to preach the Gospel, they quickly disobeyed the law.

So when something happens how do we know if it is God's work (like punishing Israel) or just Evil (like Pol Pot). Maybe I am wrong and what happened in Cambodia was the work of God.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

So when something happens how do we know if it is God's work (like punishing Israel) or just Evil (like Pol Pot). Maybe I am wrong and what happened in Cambodia was the work of God.

Tim

In the case of Israel and punishment, she was sent prophets before and after the events. This was just an example I used from the Bible showing someone could be an instrument of God's work and not know. If a human authority is correcting/punishing wrong-doing, they are doing God's work. Whether this is a parent raising a child or the court system in America punishing a murderer.

[iomskp]

Those that pray on the old the young and the vulnerable, should be put down, dropped in a hole and a tree planted on top so at least the wild life can benefit from them.

[dtknowles]

In the case of Israel and punishment, she was sent prophets before and after the events. This was just an example I used from the Bible showing someone could be an instrument of God's work and not know. If a human authority is correcting/punishing wrong-doing, they are doing God's work. Whether this is a parent raising a child or the court system in America punishing a murderer.

Ickisrulz, thanks for your thoughtful responses. You seem to understand the point of threads like this. When doing good you are doing God's work and when you are doing evil you are not doing God's work.

Then it is possible for a human authority to be doing God's work without intending to and to be doing evil at the same time.

When trying to determine whether to support such a human authority, what balance of good vs. evil is good enough. Certainly 50/50 is not good enough or maybe it is if the alternative is almost 100% evil.

Regarding capital punishment, is 1 out of a hundred wrongful executions good enough or should the threshold be higher like 1 out of a thousand. On the flip side if we have to let a 100 guilty criminals go free to avoid jailing one innocent person, we are not serving justice either.

I don't think our criminal justice system is totally broken but it certainly is in need of some reforms. I think Christians and others should support both the system and the needed reforms.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Tim, you know as much about God as does a cow. Something is fixed in your brain that can not or will not see who or what God is.
It won't do much good to try to explain anything to you because your tormented mind won't or can't recieve the knowledge of God. And what you seem to know is a twisted version of the Word of God.
For help and instruction read the book of Romans in the New Testament and for how He tests the faith of His followers read Job in the Old Testament.
You will find no evil in God, just as you will find no ice cream in a rock.

I think I know better than you "what God is." God has already put in my mind the sense of what God is. I don't ask these questions for my benefit. I already know what I believe, I ask them to get readers to think about their beliefs, to open their minds. That is not to say that my beliefs go unchanged. Some posts here are very insightful.

People have called me a Troll because they figured out that I don't ask these questions looking for answers for myself. That is not what a Troll is

An Internet troll is a member of an online social community who deliberately tries to disrupt, attack, offend or generally cause trouble within the community by posting certain comments, photos, videos, GIFs or some other form of online content.

Look at the title of this sub-forum "deeply theological discussion," the nature of my posts is completely of the sort fit for theological discussion. Discussion. I think in the future I will refrain from starting posts with rhetorical questions and instead start posts with a statement of philosophy. I am not looking for answers, I am looking for a deep nuanced discussion.

Have not you ever sat in your library or office and had a long philosophical discussion with one of your friends. Maybe with a drink and a smoke. Maybe you do that in a bar or a diner.

Ickisrulz seems to get it but not many others. I will try to find a way to start these discussions without offending others or putting them on the defensive.

The final sentence in your response hints at a meaningful discussion "You will find no evil in God, just as you will find no ice cream in a rock." I am going to start a thread to discuss this. Not because I think you will find evil in God but to hear eloquent arguments about why God does no evil. This is a common discussion in philosophy, I would be glad to hear it from philosophers here.

Tim

[1hole]

Christianity is not a philosophy nor a topic for playing troll head games. The "god" you listen to is not the God of the Bible.

[lightload]

DNA evidence has freed many from death row. Texas executed a man convicted on junk arson science. The man witness against him later admitted he gave incorrect testimony. I care not about putting killers to death but can not accept the flawed system that does it. A few years ago Texas executed a man who had been on death row for 30 years. The state spent almost $15 million on total costs.

[sigep1764]

The first page had a question about how as Christians we reconcile supporting the death sentence but remain Christian. I answer because I am flawed, fundamentally, being human. I freely admit that. And I admit to supporting the death penalty.

Please stop claiming to know God better than others. Please stop bashing each others opinions. Do be open to others thoughts and expressions. That is what this forum is for, the exchange of knowledge, lessons, experience, and for open discussion.

[1hole]

... I care not about putting killers to death but can not accept the flawed system that does it. A few years ago Texas executed a man who had been on death row for 30 years. The state spent almost $15 million on total costs.

Seems that 30 years and $15 million of examination by our legal system illustrates that we know the system is flawed (there is no way for any system to be perfect is there?) AND that we know it's imperfect AND that we are trying really hard to examine the process AND to examine the evidence that leads to a death sentence.

So, yes, we have an imperfect legal system. But, over all, I believe we're doing pretty good. And - our few contemptible politicians, ivory tower "educators", corrupt judges and very many despicable attorneys aside - America constantly strives to get it right for now and to do better later.

I don't like deadly "mistakes" at all but, stated as a percentage of capital sentences, it seems we really don't miss perfection by very much.

[lightman]

Is beyond a reasonable doubt an appropriate measure for a death penalty case? Shouldn't it be beyond the shadow of a doubt? Tim

I have to agree with this. I'm strongly in favor of the death penalty but we need to be 100% positive that they are guilty.

[Ozark mike]

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

This is my response when called to jury duty and let me tell you the judge does not like me one bit but that is his problem.
God is my judge.

[popper]

I am a believer, was empaneled for a murder trial that ended up as a mistrial - admin error. If the evidence were there I would have voted conviction, no hesitation. O.T. and N.T. confirm death penalty, many places. Would my vote be a sin? No. As a believer, the promise is my sins (many) are FORGIVEN!! Tim doesn't get that yet!!
"If on a jury a Christian votes guilty and the accused is executed but is actually innocent did that Christian commit murder." Nope. Silly question to begin with. An executed prisoner's case is not investigated after the fact so there is no opportunity (legal trial) to PROVE innocence. Possibly someone else MAY confess to the crime but again that case has to be proven!

[Rizzo]

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

This is my response when called to jury duty and let me tell you the judge does not like me one bit but that is his problem.
God is my judge.

Hmmm....
So you use those lines to get out of jury duty?
You feel it is not your place to lay judgement on someone?

Do you believe in the rule of law?
If so, doesn't that equate to some legal action against someone who breaks the law such as murder, rape, robbery, etc.?

I would say that doing jury duty is a citizen's civic duty/responsibility.
If everyone took your attitude where would we be?
A trial with no jury?
Don't we have a right to be judged by our peers?, ...yet you use your biblical statements to get out of doing so.
I've been called for jury duty and have served on a jury and the reasons some people use to try to get out of it are laughable.

Don't be that guy and do your civic responsiblity.

[1hole]

Judge not, that ye be not judged.......This is my response when called to jury duty and let me tell you the judge does not like me one bit but that is his problem.
God is my judge.

Mike, I understand your position if it's just a ploy to get off jury duty but, if you really mean it, I judge Biblically that you are really wrong.

IF you really mean you will not judge evil then we must assume you believe there should be no penalties at all. Do you not realize that making no judgements for anything - rape, stealing, murder, etc. - would immediately revert civilization back to the primitive law of the jungle? Do you not realise that living by your standard men would revert to stone age brutality, we would have to live by pure "survival of the fittest/strongest", because there could be no meaningful restraining force to protect the weak? I see nothing in scripture to support that end goal and I don't believe you do either. Not only are legal judgements for crime good, they are absolutely necessary!

Fact is, you have lifted that "don't judge" passage completely out of context and quote it in a way that has absolutely nothing to do with what it means. By stretching and twisting it totally out of shape you misuse it; that's not a good thing to do.

Surely you know those verses were (and remain) aimed at hard-hearted and self righteous religious critics evilly judging others for not being sufficently subservient to the critic's view of Christianity. We still have a lot of that "log" in many of today's religious eyes so it still applies, but only for what it means and that's not at all what you seem to be suggesting it means!

I would be very uneasy standing before the Judgement Seat of Christ trying to explain to Him how/why I took took his words totally out of their clear Biblical context and there by totally destroyed their meaning. HIS written instructions explicitly tells us how his people should try and judge criminals and then extract just penalties for their crimes (eye for eye, life for life), not that there shouldn't be a secular judgement at all and, therefore, no penalty for illegal bad deeds.

[Snow ninja]

So which laws do you follow? Eye for an eye and such? Then you also have to follow all the others. You're gonna need a lot of stones...
Oh and make sure that they next time your wife or daughter finishes her period, to bring two turtle doves or two pigeons to the Tabernacle for offering.

[cp1969]

I don't support the death penalty because I feel it punishes the wrong people. I believe it unduly punishes the families of the condemned, not the condemned himself.

I can't imagine the anguish I would be going through if an execution date was set for one of my kids and come to within minutes of that happening, only to have it stopped by an appeal of some sort. Then have to go through all of that again. And again.

Regardless of the heinous crimes committed by these people, there may be some people who still love them.

Life in prison with no parole is enough, as that's just the beginning of their punishment unless they get things square with their maker before they die.

[1hole]

So which laws do you follow?

Snow job, you already know the "laws" you refer to were the religious laws of Jewish society some 4,000 years ago. We have no evidence they had written civil laws at that time but they had common sense. Their common sense demanded that both innocents who had been wronged AND the accused should be protected by their society in a fair and open trial.

Do you believe that was/is a bad idea?

People suspected of common sense bad acts were brought before a council of community leaders where the facts, pro and con, were carefully examined and voted on before any penalty was imposed. We effectively still have that system today.

Was/is that a bad idea?


Eye for eye ....

Before the Jewish system, massive retaliation by injured families was common; I steal one of your cows, you kill my herd. I respond by killing your herd and killing your herdsmen. You respond by burning my barns and home, with me and my family trapped inside. Thus, eye for eye was given as a just limitation of punishment, not a freedom for vengance; it carried the idea that retribution should be moderated by common sense, not by angry attempts to hammer other people with excessive brutality.

Was/is that a bad application of justice and limitation of force?


Then you also have to follow all the others. You're gonna need a lot of stones...

A blatantly false premise. In today's societies we have a written code of laws, including the penalties government can rightly impose to balance the scales of justice. You know that no stones are involved.

We, the people, have appointed (elected) people to write the rules and, if not followed, to impose due punishment in our name. None of us have ever thrown any stones at all, not even you.


Oh and make sure that they next time your wife or daughter finishes her period, to bring two turtle doves or two pigeons to the Tabernacle for offering.

Well, that's just a mess. Your hypothetical distant past is badly scrambled and doesn't apply anyway, but you already know that.

Being silly trying to make a point doesn't strengthen anyone's arguments.

[slim1836]

The death penalty works. It prevents THAT convicted person from ever committing another crime. DUH. It should be done within a year of conviction with a single bullet to the head. Now you know where I stand.

I like the way you think.

Slim

[4given]

From gotquestions.org:

The Old Testament law commanded the death penalty for various acts: murder (Exodus 21:12), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), bestiality (Exodus 22:19), adultery (Leviticus 20:10), being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5), prostitution and rape (Deuteronomy 22:24), and several other crimes. However, God often showed mercy when the death penalty was due. David committed adultery and murder, yet God did not demand his life be taken (2 Samuel 11:1-5, 14-17; 2 Samuel 12:13). Ultimately, every sin we commit should result in the death penalty because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Thankfully, God demonstrates His love for us in not condemning us (Romans 5:8).

When the Pharisees brought a woman who was caught in the act of adultery to Jesus and asked Him if she should be stoned, Jesus replied, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her” (John 8:7). This should not be used to indicate that Jesus rejected capital punishment in all instances. Jesus was simply exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. The Pharisees wanted to trick Jesus into breaking the Old Testament law; they did not truly care about the woman being stoned (where was the man who was caught in adultery?) God is the One who instituted capital punishment: “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:6). Jesus would support capital punishment in some instances. Jesus also demonstrated grace when capital punishment was due (John 8:1-11). The apostle Paul definitely recognized the power of the government to institute capital punishment where appropriate (Romans 13:1-7).

How should a Christian view the death penalty? First, we must remember that God has instituted capital punishment in His Word; therefore, it would be presumptuous of us to think that we could institute a higher standard. God has the highest standard of any being; He is perfect. This standard applies not only to us but to Himself. Therefore, He loves to an infinite degree, and He has mercy to an infinite degree. We also see that He has wrath to an infinite degree, and it is all maintained in a perfect balance.

Second, we must recognize that God has given government the authority to determine when capital punishment is due (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:1-7). It is unbiblical to claim that God opposes the death penalty in all instances. Christians should never rejoice when the death penalty is employed, but at the same time, Christians should not fight against the government’s right to execute the perpetrators of the most evil of crime

[4given]

More excerpts from gotquestions.org:

"It is crucial to understand that Jesus fulfilled the Law (Matthew 5:17–18). Romans 10:4 says that Christ is the end of the Law. Ephesians 2:15 says that Jesus set aside the Law with its commands and regulations. Galatians 3:25 says, now that faith has come, we are no longer under the guardianship of the Law. The civil and ceremonial aspects of the Old Testament Law were for an earlier time. The Law’s purpose was completed with the perfect and complete sacrifice of Jesus Christ."

"Also important to understand is that the civil laws within the Mosaic Law were meant for Israel under a theocracy. God’s chosen people, living in the Promised Land, following God as their King, were to adhere to a system of civil laws with divinely prescribed punishments. The priests taught the laws, the rulers enforced the laws, and the judges meted out punishments as necessary. The rule of Leviticus 20:13, “They are to be put to death,” was given to duly appointed government officials, not to ordinary citizens or vigilantes. The civil laws of the Old Testament were never intended to apply to other cultures or other times."

"Another consideration is that the Old Testament Law did not allow for vigilantism. One of the reasons for the cities of refuge was to protect those accused of murder until they could receive a fair trial. The Mosaic Law said that only civil government was allowed to implement capital punishment, and that only after a fair trial with at least two witnesses (Deuteronomy 17:6)"

"But the question still arises as to why the death penalty was required in the Old Testament Law in the first place. The answer is this: all sin is an affront to a holy God. God hates all sin. And while God only required a civilly administered death penalty for some sins, all sins are ultimately worthy of death (Romans 6:23) and eternal separation from God."

[BunkTheory]

I'm no biblical scholar,but in the age of DNA and fancy scientific test guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is a shoe in. As a Christian should I ever be called as a juror for a capital case and the evidence shows guilt beyond a reasonable doubt I have no problem voting for the death penalty.
That's not going to happen here in Ma as we tend to send our murderers to life in prison. Plus being 70 now I don't have to do jury duty any more.

DNA tests are the devils child. Far to many episodes of the actual crime shows i get as repeats all seem to have "the freezer/piece of clothing sat in an evidence shed for 20 years, and a detective followed their ideal suspect to a smoking area and snagged a ciggarrette from the ground. then they somehow found DNA on the original item in evidence shed, and gets a court order for their ideal suspects dna to be tested, and somehow it "matches" who they want..

[.429&H110]

I am glad this thread stays up, there is a lot of considered opinion here.
And Scripture.
Some have asked What Would Jesus Do?
Luke 17:2
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

[downzero]

The death penalty system is broken. Reports show it costs more (appeals, etc) than if you just put them in prison for life. Until that is resolved, my vote is for life in prison. I don’t want my tax dollars spent on appeals. Add to this that there have been too many falsely imprisoned folks, death penalty doesn’t make sense.

If you can fix the above, I have no moral issue with the death penalty.

I'm glad my opinion is shared. I see nothing wrong with the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime, but if it isn't cost effective, those resources would be better used locking these people up for life without the possibility of any kind of release and taking the additional, otherwise wasted resources, and spending that to reduce crime (whether that means more cops, longer sentences, better rehabilitation, etc., any of that is superior to wasting it on a broken death penalty system).

As to whether a Christian would be committing murder by voting to execute an innocent person, the answer is no. Mens rea, the concept of the guilty mind, is a cornerstone of the criminal justice system for a reason. That's why a manslaughter is punishable by 6 years in my state and a murder could be a life sentence. Making a mistake that costs someone else their life is not "murder." Murder is the unjust taking of human life by another human being with malice aforethought. Anything less than that is not murder.


I have to agree with this. I'm strongly in favor of the death penalty but we need to be 100% positive that they are guilty.

If that was the case, there would be virtually no convictions for murder, ever. Most murder cases are one scumbag killing another one. Some are domestic violence. A tiny, tiny minority are the kind of truly innocent people like little girls who are kidnapped/raped etc.

There is no criminal case where you can be 100% positive that the person is guilty. Crimes happen in real life with real people who are flawed, and it is those people who give testimony in court. "Beyond a shadow of a doubt" or "beyond all possible doubt," is simply not realistically possible. So if you can't support a death sentence in the real world with a beyond a reasonable doubt standard, what you're really saying is that you aren't for the death penalty at all. Which is actually fine, everyone is entitled to decide these issues for themselves. But in a real courtroom, with real people, 100% positive does not exist. Cases are proven primarily through eyewitnesses, which are flawed human beings just like the accused.

[Shanghai Jack]

More excerpts from gotquestions.org:

"It is crucial to understand that Jesus fulfilled the Law (Matthew 5:17–18). Romans 10:4 says that Christ is the end of the Law. Ephesians 2:15 says that Jesus set aside the Law with its commands and regulations. Galatians 3:25 says, now that faith has come, we are no longer under the guardianship of the Law. The civil and ceremonial aspects of the Old Testament Law were for an earlier time. The Law’s purpose was completed with the perfect and complete sacrifice of Jesus Christ."

"Also important to understand is that the civil laws within the Mosaic Law were meant for Israel under a theocracy. God’s chosen people, living in the Promised Land, following God as their King, were to adhere to a system of civil laws with divinely prescribed punishments. The priests taught the laws, the rulers enforced the laws, and the judges meted out punishments as necessary. The rule of Leviticus 20:13, “They are to be put to death,” was given to duly appointed government officials, not to ordinary citizens or vigilantes. The civil laws of the Old Testament were never intended to apply to other cultures or other times."

"Another consideration is that the Old Testament Law did not allow for vigilantism. One of the reasons for the cities of refuge was to protect those accused of murder until they could receive a fair trial. The Mosaic Law said that only civil government was allowed to implement capital punishment, and that only after a fair trial with at least two witnesses (Deuteronomy 17:6)"

"But the question still arises as to why the death penalty was required in the Old Testament Law in the first place. The answer is this: all sin is an affront to a holy God. God hates all sin. And while God only required a civilly administered death penalty for some sins, all sins are ultimately worthy of death (Romans 6:23) and eternal separation from God."

You left out the first halb of Matthew 5:17-20 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or. the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." ...

[Char-Gar]

As a general principal, I am again the DP, but not on any moral or religious grounds. I know the Criminal Justice system and know it is very fallible. To fallible to be entrusted with a life or death decision. But, I do make exceptions, for there are some really bad people that just need killing.

Our legal system makes implementing the DP a very long and expensive process. I would favor 30 days for an expedited appeal and if denied, one pistol shot in the back of the head should do the trick. The Russians don't do everything wrong.

[GregLaROCHE]

I can’t say I’m for it for all murder cases, but there are some, that without a doubt, it’s the right and moral thing to do.

[BunkTheory]

I'm glad my opinion is shared. I see nothing wrong with the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime, but if it isn't cost effective, those resources would be better used locking these people up for life without the possibility of any kind of release and taking the additional, otherwise wasted resources, and spending that to reduce crime (whether that means more cops, longer sentences, better rehabilitation, etc., any of that is superior to wasting it on a broken death penalty system).

As to whether a Christian would be committing murder by voting to execute an innocent person, the answer is no. Mens rea, the concept of the guilty mind, is a cornerstone of the criminal justice system for a reason. That's why a manslaughter is punishable by 6 years in my state and a murder could be a life sentence. Making a mistake that costs someone else their life is not "murder." Murder is the unjust taking of human life by another human being with malice aforethought. Anything less than that is not murder.



If that was the case, there would be virtually no convictions for murder, ever. Most murder cases are one scumbag killing another one. Some are domestic violence. A tiny, tiny minority are the kind of truly innocent people like little girls who are kidnapped/raped etc.

There is no criminal case where you can be 100% positive that the person is guilty. Crimes happen in real life with real people who are flawed, and it is those people who give testimony in court. "Beyond a shadow of a doubt" or "beyond all possible doubt," is simply not realistically possible. So if you can't support a death sentence in the real world with a beyond a reasonable doubt standard, what you're really saying is that you aren't for the death penalty at all. Which is actually fine, everyone is entitled to decide these issues for themselves. But in a real courtroom, with real people, 100% positive does not exist. Cases are proven primarily through eyewitnesses, which are flawed human beings just like the accused.

You need to actually study cases that have happened.

A woman commited suicide, they felt because the semi auto fired twice that the husband killed her. convicted the husband.

A woman drowned her kids in the bath tub. claimed "voices told her to", she got light jail term.

A woman shot her husband to death from her car. shot him twelve times. ONLY convicted due to the weapon used was a 5 shot snub nose.

[Char-Gar]

You need to actually study cases that have happened.

A woman commited suicide, they felt because the semi auto fired twice that the husband killed her. convicted the husband.

A woman drowned her kids in the bath tub. claimed "voices told her to", she got light jail term.

A woman shot her husband to death from her car. shot him twelve times. ONLY convicted due to the weapon used was a 5 shot snub nose.

Such cases can't be treated as short shocking headlines. Watch the trial, or read a transcript and such silly summaries will quickly prove bogus. Things are far, far, more complex that your posts.

[downzero]

You need to actually study cases that have happened.

A woman commited suicide, they felt because the semi auto fired twice that the husband killed her. convicted the husband.

A woman drowned her kids in the bath tub. claimed "voices told her to", she got light jail term.

A woman shot her husband to death from her car. shot him twelve times. ONLY convicted due to the weapon used was a 5 shot snub nose.

I need to "study" cases that actually happen? Sir I make cases actually happen; this is my life's work.


Such cases can't be treated as short shocking headlines. Watch the trial, or read a transcript and such silly summaries will quickly prove bogus. Things are far, far, more complex that your posts.

Exactly.

Jury trials sometimes produce bizarre and sometimes indefensible results, but we decided a long time ago that even that was superior to all of its alternatives.

[1hole]

Soft hearted touchy-feely illusions aside, executions for cause are NOT "murder".

The Commandant translated, "Thou shall not kill" is a poor translation of the message. It should read, "You shall not murder". There's a vast difference between those acts and their meanings.

People who commit capital crimes forfeit their right to live, period. Therefore, state sanctioned executioners are not murderers.

[rbuck351]

After being a correctional officer for 20 years and reading the files on several of the really bad ones, I'm sure in my mind that some are bad enough they need to be executed. Butcher Baker should have been executed rather than wasting the state a lot of money. He took prostitutes to his home, tortured them then took them for a plane ride and turned them loose naked in the woods and hunted them down and shot them with a bow. IIRC he toll was 21 women and he took the police to where he had buried 17. I have trouble with those that think he should have spent many years in prison at about $32,000 a year to keep him alive. There is another one that is even worse that is still alive in prison that started with a sentence of 435 years but I will refrain from telling his crime. AK has no death penalty so they spend a lot of money keeping violent criminals alive and complain about the cost of keeping them alive.
There are the Hitlers and the Mansons in the world that should not be here.

[Graybeard96]

Basically I am against the Death Penalty because it is possible a innocent Person gets "hung" and also it has been used throughout History to silence Opposition.
However, if there is irrefutable solid Evidence that the accused is Guilty of a Murderous Crime then I would agree to the Death Penalty which should be carried out immediately after one appeal failed to overturn it.

Cheers

[farmbif]

Matthew (5:38-42) in the New Testament, Jesus repudiates even that notion. "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

[1hole]

Matthew (5:38-42) "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

That's misunderstood and wrongly applied scripture. It means God is a judge of justice, not hateful revenge, so no legal penalty could rightly exceed the wrongs that were done. Thus, Jesus was simply saying the penalty should match the crime. If that were not correct then all of God's O.T. Laws mandating death by stoning for certain sins would have been sinful and that certainly isn't so.


But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

That is a guideline for personal slights and indignities, it doesn't mean a Christian is expected to endure any physical harm at all to himself or others who need defending. Consider that Jesus' admonition to his disciples to acquire a sword if they didn't have one wasn't because swords looked good on their belts.

[Scrounge]

Take religion out of the question. Religious beliefs have no place in our criminal justice system.

Not at all true. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

Rights are God-given. Some folks make poor choices, and sometimes they must be prevented from infringing the rights of others. We have a justice system based on religion, as our Declaration and Constitution are based on religion. If there is no religion, there is no basis for anything but anarchy. The Government has those "just powers" because we empower them to do so. IMHO, that system isn't working so well, but that is why it exists.

[Blackwater]

I am a former parole officer and have written and read quite a few stories of the offenses committed, how they were done any pertinent damning or extenuating circumstances known, or believed to be operating at the time of the crime. Other pertinent details are much of the evidence both pro and against the subject. These investigations are often used by parole boards to decide whether or not to grant parole. Anyone who's spent much time in and around the courts surely can't place a whole lot of faith in our system today. Sometimes, things go beautifully, and made me proud. Other times ........ well, ley's just say 'Not so much.'

All of us want a perfect system. We show no promise of ever attaining that. People just seem to get inurred and bored. and let things slide that they maybe shouldn't.

As long as we're sentient and get tired by long prodeedings, we're going to have a faulty system, but in its defense, i'm generally surprised it does as well as it does.

Until we come up with something better. I'm at least relatively satisfied that very very few are put to death in error. I know it does happen but I can't bring an instance to mind. And legal execution is in no way akin to murder, but those who just like to argue don't really care about such things. They just want to argue.

[M-Tecs]

. And legal execution is in no way akin to murder, but those who just like to argue don't really care about such things. They just want to argue.

And that would be the understatement of the year.

[armoredman]

Anyone here worked Death Row? I have, as a CO and as an LT. I've seen the walking skin suits down there, nothing human inside. Are there wrongfully convicted people on Death Roiw? Could be, which is why we do all the appeals. Arizona HAS streamlined the process somewhat, so inmates sentenced in the last 10-15 years will not be spending 50 years on Death Row.
I have a few things for the life in prison adherents - you gonna pay for it? Will you pony up the tax dollars to keep an inmate in prison for the rest of his natural life? That's the bare beginning, because now we move on to what prison is really for.
1) - Punishment. Separation from all others, loss of normal sex, a very artificial world with artificial rules and penalties for non compliance. This is meant to correct behavior. Does it work? I don't know about your state, but our prison population has been steadily dropping over the last 5 years, with no California style "prison reform" just just let the thugs out. We also remind them at the gate that Oregon has basically decriminalized all hard drugs. Might also be helping...BUT...life in prison means punishment without end. Does that fall under the 8th Amendment or cruel and unusual punishment? Wait for the ALU to jump n there with both feet someday.
2) Rehabilitation. Seriously. We program the bejeepers out of these guys from walk in to walk out. We have programs for EVERYTHING, from Cage Your Rage to our excellent Wildland Firefighting Crew. We will do whatever we can to get their mindset where it should be, because 96% of ALL inmates are eventually released. But if we tell a man we cannot rehabilitate you, we have failed again. Can we reach everyone - not a chance. I have seen inmates stab each other with pens during classes, slash throats with chicken bones, and spray blood 1/4 inch deep in a bathroom trying to end it all. He lived, BTW. BUT, we have to try - they are in our care and custody and we have a statutory obligation to try to correct the behavior, hence the name. Actually, we changed our name recently, as we are now The Arizona Department of Corrections, Rehabilitation and Reentry. Is it working? Refer to the numbers above...or, even better, look at the real numbers. Here's a sneak peek into real prisons. The reports roll with time, so 2018 is as far back as I can go now.
https://corrections.az.gov/sites/default/files/REPORTS/CAG/2018/cagfeb18.pdf
That was a total population of 41,681.

Last one updated was August of this year;
https://corrections.az.gov/sites/default/files/REPORTS/CAG/2021/cagaug-21.pdf
Total population - 35,489.

Now, on to that OTHER 800 pound gorilla in the room about lifers - what to DO with them? Would you like to know that there are inmates doing natural life on medium custody yards? Read about the escape from Kingman, and the lifers that got out. Two elderly people would be ALIVE today if they had been in lockdown or on Death Row, but instead they were murdered and burned inside their own camper. Check out the stories of how many times inmates doing life without parole have escaped, and what they did on the outside. When you have nothing left to lose, it's easy. Oddly enough, that does NOT follow with Death Row. Their privileges are all they have left, so they actually tend to be easier to manage. A lot of the lifers, the ones who decided they have nothing to lose are the worst to manage, and they regularly attack us and each other. Sometimes it's all to get a hospital trip in order to try to escape - we had one shot doing exactly that a few years ago. Yes, Virginia, the weapons are real and have real bullets in them - you'd be surprised what stupid things people in the hospital will say.
How many murderers GET the death penalty? Damn few - as of August we had 3,953 in prison for murder/manslaughter/non-negligent homicide. Death Row? 114. That's it. Three of those are women.

So, too long/didn't read - life in prison is effective in only doing one thing - warehousing inmates. Period. If that's what people want, we'll do it but be prepared to PAY for it - tell your elected officials that you want more money for prison construction/maintenance/staff salaries. As the old saying goes, put the money where the mouth is. Not trying to be a jerk, but I have heard this for almost 20 years now. Also, be prepared for the civil cost when they escape. Not IF, when. Any system devised by man can be defeated by man, and I have seen some VERY clever inmates over the years - ever seen a Maalox bottle turned into a bomb?
Last - the Christian angle - did not The Lord say that vengeance is his? We are still given justice. Jesus said he was not going to change the Law? Doesn't the Talmud say more times than once to kill a man if he is trying to kill you? Bet there's some lines about executions. Don't forget the translations that screw up the Aramaic word for "murder" and replace it with "kill". A justified execution is not murder.
There is an old Leftist bumper sticker that reads, "Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?" This one should be added right next to it - "We execute people who kill people so they may never kill again." I support the death penalty with a clear conscience, and if I am wrong, My Lord will show me the error of mine ways, but with what I know, I do not believe I am wrong. I also support the effort it takes to GET that conviction AND the appeals process, for the taking of a human life is no light thing, and should be handled as carefully as possible, and as clearly as possible, but once the process has completed, justice should be swift and final.

[armoredman]

I almost forgot - did I read an allegation that Death Row is primarily aimed at blacks?

It happens but mostly only to Black people, sort of legal lynching.

Arizona Death Row ethnic breakdown - Asian - 3, Black - 18, Caucasian - 63, Mexican-American - 23, Native American, (Amerind) - 5, and Other - 2. Doesn't look like that out here.

https://corrections.az.gov/public-resources/death-row

[1hole]

...life in prison means punishment without end. Does that fall under the 8th Amendment or cruel and unusual punishment? Wait for the ALU to jump n there with both feet someday.

For "liberal" lunatics such as the ACLU, punishments are "cruel" by definition and serious punishment for truly bad stuff is so seldom applied it qualifies as "unusual"; thus they usually see all legal punishments as unconstitutional.

[armoredman]

I know - I see the ACLU quite often around here - they give other lawyers a bad name. That speculation was mentioned to raise the idea, NOT to invite the bloodsuckers within 200 miles of the place.

[Bmi48219]

Regardless of how many murderers are executed, people will continue to murder. An Execution will stop someone from murdering again.
Some crimes are just plain inhuman, to commit such crimes a person has to be evil beyond measure. It’s not for us to forgive evil. That’s up to God alone, when they stand before Him to be judged. Convicted criminals have plenty of time on death row to ask His forgiveness. That’s all the earthly time they need and more than they allowed their victims.
Someone guilty beyond all doubt of a horrendous crime deserves execution if for no other reason than society will fall apart if they are given a pass. Corporal punishment is a real deterrent to lesser crimes, and should also be part of the penal system.

[Shawlerbrook]

There are people that are so evil and committed crimes that cannot be ever forgiven. They will always be evil and the world would be a better place if they never existed. The death penalty makes the world a safer, better place by eliminating their existence.

[1hole]

I'm a Christian who is often puzzled by non-Christians who sneer at Christians who accept that there is nothing automatically un-Christian about the death penalty for human trash who commit capital crimes; it's not about trying to "teach them a lesson," it's about us cleaning the gene pool. There is no moral or scriptural reason for the public to house, clothe, feed and medicate fiends who have forever forfeit their original God given right to pursue life, liberty and happiness.

Those who piously wring their hands at the thought of executions and whine that men aren't supposed to "judge" others to death are idiots. Fact is, God judges spiritual things but we are told to judge ourselves by the life fruit we bear. When our life shows that we deserve death (i.e., "a life for a life") that's exactly what we should get ... and reasonably quickly.

[1hole]

I almost forgot - did I read an allegation that Death Row is primarily aimed at blacks?


Arizona Death Row ethnic breakdown - Asian - 3, Black - 18, Caucasian - 63, Mexican-American - 23, Native American, (Amerind) - 5, and Other - 2. Doesn't look like that out here.

https://corrections.az.gov/public-resources/death-row

You make good points and you did read that racist allegation. But, you may notice that the folk who placidly follow political liberal/progressive/snowflake racial propaganda paths don't care for facts.

Truth is, the more our whiner's passive ideas are implimented, the faster the rate of violet behavior increases; victims of all races and common sense folk really don't like that!