Japchester 73

[bigted]

Just read that for sure Uberti makes a 44 mag in the 73 toggle link rifle action. Always wondered if the rumer was true.

So is thete anything "special" done to the old toggle action to withstand the considerable thrust from the mag chamber?

Reason I ask is I have a Japchester 73 chambered in 45 Colt and always felt squeamish about loading anything over what black powder would produce. It is a dandy little 16 inch carbine and handy as all get out. But if this toggle system is sturdier than I thought ... I will stop treating it like it is a fairly tender lil flower.

Anybody know or have data on the toggle system that Uberti puts behind the 44 mag ... guess I am asking is ... can the Japchester handle the 44 mag pressures or has Uberti done something a bit "extra" to their 44 mag system?

I would never load to these pressures but I would like to feel comfy with the 255/260 grain boolits ahead of a 8 or 9 grain Unique load of powder.

Thanks all

[missionary5155]

Nope. I cannot write I have ever seen one with the covers off. Remember it is the pins that are also very important.
But to spend that much $$$ on a rifle in 44 mag ?? I would be just as happy with a jap 92 and not have to wonder.

[Finster101]

I would think modern metallurgy alone would make it more robust than the originals. I also can't see them offering a product without being pretty sure of liability issues.

[bigted]

Naaa ... I do not have the least interest in having a 44 mag in a 1873 toggle link action.

Guess I was not clear. My interest in this is pretty simple really. I already own the Japchester chambered in 45 Colt. This little short 16 inch carbine is way cool and a ton of fun. I really only wonder if my 8 or 9 grain of Unique behind a 255 or 260 grain lead boolit will strain my rifle.

If the basic design ... that has nothing in addition to the basic action ... is strong enough for 44 mag ... then my Colt loads will not tax my rifle and I would tackle deer hunting in a heartbeat with these 8 or 9 grain Unique loads.

That is my interest in the 44 mag model '73'.

[mickbr]

Maybe ask over at SASS fire forums, probably have the biggest saturation of 1873 owners. Just checked an old thread by 'Pineywoods Jim' there and he has had his 1873 44 mag uberti apart. Said the links look like they were made for a tank, easily handled full strength 44 mag. Now whether the setup up internally is the same between the 44 mag and 45 colt's links is another question.

[mickbr]

I'll add, Aussies like lever actions to hog hunt and as I have found since looking into 44mag and 357 mag, 1873's are also reprsented in the field, with factory loads. The common advice is usually get a 94 or 92 action over an 1873 , but being one of our states has the worlds largest populations of wild swine, out numbering humans 3-1, thats a lot of shooting with no blown up guns of any type I know of. I just got a 44 mag uberti myself but will be running it closer to 44-40 power, probably similar to what you are doing.

[Hootmix]

I may be wrong,, ( wouldn't be the first time ), but the strength of the toggle link is not in the pins,, it is in the alinement of the links them selves , and that is why they are machined to fit so closely together ,forming a straight line when the bolt is closed forward over the cartridge , based on what i'v read .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

[greenjoytj]

I saw a photo in a gun mag some years ago of a Winchester M1873 that blew up.
The toggle links held strong. The barrel split a 6 o’clock right under the chamber through the threads.
The barrel steel is thin there in order to have the magazine tube close as possible to the chamber.
Apparently that is the weak point on the M73 or at least it was on the gun in the magazine photo.

If the right propellant powder is chosen I can get a 250 gr cast bullet MV up to a little over 1200 fps like a 22 LR high velocity. I’ve been using Hodgdon’s CFE-Pistol I suspect there are other powders that could do the same. Powders on the slow side of the medium burn range that can take advantage of the long barrel of a rifle to make more MV over the short barrel of a pistol that may leave unburned powder granules in the barrel.

[indian joe]

I may be wrong,, ( wouldn't be the first time ), but the strength of the toggle link is not in the pins,, it is in the alinement of the links them selves , and that is why they are machined to fit so closely together ,forming a straight line when the bolt is closed forward over the cartridge , based on what i'v read .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

nope I believe you are right - a toggle gun made properly, the radius around the outside of the pin holes is what takes the thrust - as you said the alignment of the links themselves ...................
thanks fer the coffee..

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=greenjoytj;4935030]I saw a photo in a gun mag some years ago of a Winchester M1873 that blew up.
The toggle links held strong. The barrel split a 6 o’clock right under the chamber through the threads.
The barrel steel is thin there in order to have the magazine tube close as possible to the chamber.
Apparently that is the weak point on the M73 or at least it was on the gun in the magazine photo.

Same story when they blew up the 1876 ..................but ya gotta imagine the back end got stretched some in the process .
Overload a brass frame gun and it will stretch the frame and bind the bolt.

[Hootmix]

In keeping w/ the topic,, don't think the Mfg's. would put out a weapon ( Army , not gun ) to the general public w/o it being Lawyer tested, " But " ,, some folk's can make a crowbar use oil . Hey , Joe,, nother cup?

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

[indian joe]

In keeping w/ the topic,, don't think the Mfg's. would put out a weapon ( Army , not gun ) to the general public w/o it being Lawyer tested, " But " ,, some folk's can make a crowbar use oil . Hey , Joe,, nother cup?

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

Yeah you can bet they tested that 44mag sixteen ways to sunday ..................
Diggin strainer post hole by hand yesterday in hard stony ground - dang crowbar would not go into that stuff - never thought ta check the oil in it .......................

cup of black with a dash of maple syrup thanks (seein as ya offered)

[bigted]

Well maybe the new Japchester 73 is made of stouter stuff along with the Italian 73's. My 45 Colt with its 16 inch barrel is just so handy and light that it has my a little weary of its strength ... maybe I have vastly underestimated it as to its strength. Might be my loads (factory and blackpowder velocity's) are perfectly fine in it with the 260 grain boolits from my "Accurate molds" mold.

On a nother front, I understand that the Japchester 92's and 73's chambered in 357 Mag have chambers that are good and tight [ so the brass will chamber in revolver cylinders after fired in the rifle ] which indicates a chamber that is not way oversize like the 45 Colt chambers. Might just NEED another rifle ... awww ... 357 Mag in a short barrel '92' would be a very nice trail rifle I betcha.

[indian joe]

Well maybe the new Japchester 73 is made of stouter stuff along with the Italian 73's. My 45 Colt with its 16 inch barrel is just so handy and light that it has my a little weary of its strength ... maybe I have vastly underestimated it as to its strength. Might be my loads (factory and blackpowder velocity's) are perfectly fine in it with the 260 grain boolits from my "Accurate molds" mold.

On a nother front, I understand that the Japchester 92's and 73's chambered in 357 Mag have chambers that are good and tight [ so the brass will chamber in revolver cylinders after fired in the rifle ] which indicates a chamber that is not way oversize like the 45 Colt chambers. Might just NEED another rifle ... awww ... 357 Mag in a short barrel '92' would be a very nice trail rifle I betcha.

Had me a very early Rossi 357 carbine - it looked to have a pretty neat chamber - was more picky on the shape of round it wanted to feed sweet but once we figured it out - all good . Was real accurate shooter - sold it to a mate a couple years back.
nobody talks about it much but the 357 mag makes a dandy little blackpowder round - lots of fun - we loaded leftover FFFFg

[kaiser]

I asked Uberti years ago when they first came out with the .44Mag and I got a “marketeers” answer, not an engineers’. I’ve seen it discussed on a few sites, even by Brian Pearce and his conclusion was the same as most of you, “if it was a strength issue, they would not have offered it in that caliber. The Europeans test their.44Mags to 40,000psi, so I would expect at least that level of strength. I own, and love to shoot, Uberti Short Rifle in.45 Colt; and while I’ve read Pearce state he is not concerned about shooting loads over 20,000psi on occasion I would be cautious making it common practice.. European loads tests about 16,000psi for that cartridge. 16,000psi will get you .44Mag pistol velocities in a short, handy rifle - another 3 or 4000psi won’t get much more velocity or a flatter trajectory. After reading tests of the 1876 toggle link “overloads” (I know a bigger action, but toggle link design nevertheless) I don’t see a reasonable overload sticking you in the ��, I think one manufactured incident by our “bleeds it leads” jurnos would have nailed that one for all time. My opinion is the Metal used in the new Japchesters/Italian made guns are far stronger than we give them credit for because of the basis for their slick design; I have no desire to make mine a pressure test gun, but am confident if the load is a little too warm the gun will let me know by recoil or case extraction without coming apart. I’ll leave magnum designed guns to shoot magnum calibers or loads, including Uberti’s. I am intrigued by Uber’s .44 offering and would like to see some real world loading data by some of our members.

[bigted]

My original question stands ... has Uberti done something extra to the '73' action to withstand that 44 mag pressure?

My quest is to conclude if "other" chambers have the same toggles and pins as the 44 mag has. This would rest my mind as to a "what if" happened in a 45 Colt load ... would the action stay safe.

[indian joe]

My original question stands ... has Uberti done something extra to the '73' action to withstand that 44 mag pressure?

My quest is to conclude if "other" chambers have the same toggles and pins as the 44 mag has. This would rest my mind as to a "what if" happened in a 45 Colt load ... would the action stay safe.

I guess side by side comparison with an original would be about the only way to figure this - for sure the metal quality would be no comparison - but there plenty room in there to make the toggle bearing surfaces a little more beefy - bigger pins, add some meat to the frame, could all be done and hard to notice the difference ???

[mickbr]

Well I found two comments on other internet forums that Uberti sets up the 44mag in 1873 with better metallurgy, which is also why the 44 mag version has the blued reciever variation, (not the regular color case hardened effect plates of most of their 1873's). However, how the external reciever appearance proves the internals are strengthened is not clear, not to mention the 357 mag ubertis have the usual color case hardened plates anyway and run just as high pressures as the 44mag. Could all be chinese whispers. Sorry not much help there.

[bigted]

Lol ... yep been watching for awhile for this answer on the comparison.

If the only difference is frame, and that difference is somehow in the finish treatment ... then that would be above my ears in knowledge. I could see the metallurgy change due to baking a color case but not sure they dont do the color case with chemicals.

And so the mystery continues.

I would never try to get anywhere close to the 357 or 44 mag pressures with my 45 Colt but think that a good stiff load of 9 grains Unique or 40 grains compressed 2 or 3F old E powder should be fine in my little carbine. They both shoot great but hard in my new vaquero and Colt second gen 45 Colt revolvers. My 45 Colt Redhawk shoots these with ease but it is a tank anyway.

[Boz330]

Naaa ... I do not have the least interest in having a 44 mag in a 1873 toggle link action.

Guess I was not clear. My interest in this is pretty simple really. I already own the Japchester chambered in 45 Colt. This little short 16 inch carbine is way cool and a ton of fun. I really only wonder if my 8 or 9 grain of Unique behind a 255 or 260 grain lead boolit will strain my rifle.

If the basic design ... that has nothing in addition to the basic action ... is strong enough for 44 mag ... then my Colt loads will not tax my rifle and I would tackle deer hunting in a heartbeat with these 8 or 9 grain Unique loads.

That is my interest in the 44 mag model '73'.

I have one of the Uberti long rifles in 45 Colt and my Godson took a nice little buck with it last season. I found the Lee 200gr RNFP shot the best in it so that is what it was loaded with along with Unique, but I don't remember the amount. The boolit was making over 1200fps and went all the way through, and the deer was DRT.

Bob

[Walks]

I have a Friend that bought a Uberti 1866 copy when they first came out in .45Colt, almost 30yrs ago. His standard Cowboy Shooting load is 8.0grs of Unique under a 230gr TC for Revolver and 255gr RF for Rifle.

He probably averages 3,000 - 5,000 rounds a year.

I've probably shot half again that much in my Uberti 1873 Clones from 1987-2010. A .44-40 that I shoot a load of 225gr RF over 6.0grs of Titegroup. Used to use Unique until I switched after Titegroup came out, just a bit more economical, better for the cold at Winter Range.

And My Uberti 1866 clone; I've put about 3,000+ rounds of #454190-260gr over 9.0grs of Unique. Plus thousands of My STD Cowboy Load of 225gr TC over 5.0grs of Clays.

After 33+yrs of Uberti rifles with a toggle link action ? I think they will last a long time.

Just don't abuse them, too much.

[bigted]

Awesome fella's. This is just the confirmation I looked for. This winny short carbine is just a blast to carry AND shoot. I will feel comfortable loading and shooting my favorite loads in it. They are not over the top but I guess that I let the talk of weak 73 Winchester get the better of me ... did the same thing with my 1884 trapdoor ... same story with an old original sporting rolling block chambered in 40-65 W.

Any rate, I look forward to getting better acquainted with this very cool rifle.

[salvadore]

I extrapulated a load using the Lee handbook and info from Lyman cast bullet manual, but now am questioning the pressure. Lee talks about less than 20,000 cup and tells you oal but doesn't mention which bullet. It shoots about 2" at 50yds and shows no overt signs of scary pressure but thumps pretty good at the shoulder. Am going to size to 452 or 451 for the next bunch instead of 454.

[kaiser]

kwk.us/pressures.html is a site that should give you idea of loads per caliber (U.S. and European).

[bigted]

20 K seems a bit heavy for the 1873 Winchester rifle. The blackpowder loads do not seem over 11 or 12 K and my thinking is 15 K for smokeless ... [ IN A "NEW" RIFLE ] ... Not an original ... but then I have been surprised at the strength of these old style guns a lot.

Too much fun I say! I have always been a sucker for old style stuff. Now I find ME being old style stuff ... when did this happen anyway?

[indian joe]

20 K seems a bit heavy for the 1873 Winchester rifle. The blackpowder loads do not seem over 11 or 12 K and my thinking is 15 K for smokeless ... [ IN A "NEW" RIFLE ] ... Not an original ... but then I have been surprised at the strength of these old style guns a lot.

Too much fun I say! I have always been a sucker for old style stuff. Now I find ME being old style stuff ... when did this happen anyway?

There was a discussion simlilar to this around the Uberti 1876 some time back - eventually someone came back saying Uberti had stated it safe for loads up to 28000 (PSI ?) - proofed to 34000(PSI?) ---loaded to that level would be a stomping load in a 45/75.

Also Winchester back in the day marketed a 450 x 90 grain BP load for single shot use in the originals so they must have thought there was a decent safety margin

[bigted]

That 450x90 grain must have been in a 76 rifle correct? That and when you say "single shot" do you mean loading the 76 in a single shot mode directly into the chamber without running it thru the action?

Thanks for the insight. Also have never had a 76 around to fiddle with ... how do the toggle's compare to the 73?

[indian joe]

That 450x90 grain must have been in a 76 rifle correct? That and when you say "single shot" do you mean loading the 76 in a single shot mode directly into the chamber without running it thru the action?

Thanks for the insight. Also have never had a 76 around to fiddle with ... how do the toggle's compare to the 73?

yes with 90 grains loaded the OAL is way to much to cycle from the magazine - I cant even eject an unfired round - have shot my Uberti 76 thisaway using pointy nose 500 grain over about 83 grains FFg - I figured if Winchester sold the ammo for an original it was (should be) a safe bet in a modern replica.

Toggles in a 76? - the 1876 is just a 1873 on steroids - everything got bigger - same proportions just bigger.

[bigted]

Cool. Thanks.

Is it your premis then that a modern made '73' will withstand a diet of the 28,000 K loads then?

Thanks.

[indian joe]

Cool. Thanks.

Is it your premis then that a modern made '73' will withstand a diet of the 28,000 K loads then?

Thanks.

Nope!!! a japchester 73 might take it ok but I reckon thats a 92 load - we know a modern made 92 will take that stuff better, easier and for way longer.

[bigted]

10-4 ... thanks ... my impression as well. 92's are tough tough! Have a couple japchester's 92's and of any rifle short or long ... these I do not worry about strength.

My 73's tho ... another story. I aim to keep em runnin for the rest of my lifetime and down through grand and great great grand chillins ... sooo ... no hotrod loads through them.

Bought Rossi 92's for birthdays years ago ... one in 45 Colt the other in 357 mag. No worry as to safe shooters for them.

[Ballard]

I have been following this thread for awhile. I agree that the 73 should not be hot rodded too much. It is NOT as strong as a 92, no matter the improvements in metal. However, no less an authority than Ken Waters stated the ORIGINAL 1873 Winchester's pressure limit was 22,000PSI. He was considered an expert on the old guns. Now, i'm not saying that should be tested every round, just that maybe the 13,000psi is conservative. I'd love to hear some more thoughts on this.