loading HBWC's (hollow base wadcutters)

[Billwnr]

How many on here remember the old advise of using unsized .38 cases for best accuracy with HBWC's? I'm on an accuracy project and loaded up some as a control group. I used sized cases and expected a tight fit with the bullets. Some poked in a sized case easily with fingers. I used both Remington and Hornady HBWC's and the Hornady ones were the ones that had an easy fit. I did not mike them yesterday but intend to later today to get the diameter.

[USSR]

I think you will find the Remington HBWC's measure .360". The Hornady's probably .357" (just guessing on them). That would account for the difference in ease in seating.

Don

[Thumbcocker]

An acquaintance told me about trying to get a .32 long free pistol chambered for wadcutters to shoot as well with hand loads as with factory loads. Could not come close until they stopped resizing the brass.

[ABJ]

I have done the un-sized vs sized cases. Without a doubt the un-sized wadcutter cases shot better. The regular cases, not much difference. I used factory HBWC and I used my own pure lead swaged HBWC. I also used the Lee 148 BNWC cast in different alloys. After thousands of rounds, the bottom line is the Lee cast in 20:1 and light crimp in the crimp groove was the best. No matter what I did the non flush rounds produced the best groups. The best case was R/P wadcutter cases followed by Federal wadcutter cases. I had to use Federal primers because of light hammer strikes on a tuned S&W model 15.
3.5 Unique or 3.4 HP-38 was the best powder on the cast, and 2.9 Red Dot on the HBWC. No ramsom rest was used just shot bags at 25 yds. My accuracy standard was center to center on 5 shot groups and a mim of five groups.
.7 inches averaged was the best I could get without a machine rest on the cast.
The HBWC would turn in some .6/ish groups but wouldn't hold on the 5 group avg. They would hold about .8/.9 on the five group avg. I think the HBWC was a lube issue causing a flyer not anything about the boolit. I used an Ultra Dot scope and did not shoot into the aming point.
As a side note, I keep a few hundred rounds loaded of the Unique load for family and friends for plinking and are accurate in any 38/357 I have ever put them in. Most times will shoot to the sights of fixed sight guns.
I hope my year plus testing will help you on your quest, that was the most satisfying endeavor I have ever had in load development

Tony.

[ABJ]

Billwnr, I forgot to mention one thing about the un-sized cases. A tight fit was not my problem on the wadcutter cases, just the opposite. My .358 boolits would fall all the way to the powder on about 20 precent, so on all my flush rounds I would smear a little soft sticky lube near the base to hold it until I could crimp it. My boolit was just enough to see above the case mouth or almost flush. Not like the factory Federal's which is roll crimped in front of the bullet. Make SURE the boolit will not drop any lower in the case. I'm sure you already know that, but a word of caution never hurts.
Tony

[Billwnr]

I have done the un-sized vs sized cases. Without a doubt the un-sized wadcutter cases shot better. The regular cases, not much difference. I used factory HBWC and I used my own pure lead swaged HBWC. I also used the Lee 148 BNWC cast in different alloys. After thousands of rounds, the bottom line is the Lee cast in 20:1 and light crimp in the crimp groove was the best. No matter what I did the non flush rounds produced the best groups. The best case was R/P wadcutter cases followed by Federal wadcutter cases. I had to use Federal primers because of light hammer strikes on a tuned S&W model 15.
3.5 Unique or 3.4 HP-38 was the best powder on the cast, and 2.9 Red Dot on the HBWC. No ramsom rest was used just shot bags at 25 yds. My accuracy standard was center to center on 5 shot groups and a mim of five groups.
.7 inches averaged was the best I could get without a machine rest on the cast.
The HBWC would turn in some .6/ish groups but wouldn't hold on the 5 group avg. They would hold about .8/.9 on the five group avg. I think the HBWC was a lube issue causing a flyer not anything about the boolit. I used an Ultra Dot scope and did not shoot into the aming point.
As a side note, I keep a few hundred rounds loaded of the Unique load for family and friends for plinking and are accurate in any 38/357 I have ever put them in. Most times will shoot to the sights of fixed sight guns.
I hope my year plus testing will help you on your quest, that was the most satisfying endeavor I have ever had in load development

Tony.

Good info. I'll use this next trip to the loading bench. Already got this week's test ammo assembled. I'm playing around with the HBWC's but my main focus is .357 loads and the 358429 bullet as it runs well thru my Star luber. I find the Keith style lube groove easiest to align in the Star. The HBWC loads is my control ammo for the test shooting.

[tazman]

This only works when loading for a single handgun.
Revolvers have chamber dimensions that differ, often for each handgun. Fired brass from the larger chambers will only work in those guns.
You will need to keep your brass segregated for each revolver you reload this way.

[1hole]

This only works when loading for a single handgun.
Revolvers have chamber dimensions that differ, often for each handgun. Fired brass from the larger chambers will only work in those guns.
You will need to keep your brass segregated for each revolver you reload this way.

True, but for best accuracy it's true for all firearms, not just revolvers. Loading for precision means custom fitting ammo for each weapon as an individual is mandatory. If a reloader is determined to blindly follow "instructions" and make ammo that will function and fire in ALL firearms that's okay but he may as well just buy factory stuff.

[oldsalt444]

Being a bullseye pistol competitor, I've been using 148 gr. HBWC bullets for a long time. In bullseye circles, "The Load" is 2.7 gr. WST or 2.8 BE and a light crimp. As accurate as you can possibly get. I've never heard of using unsized cases. You might get away with that in some revolvers and light loads, but definitely NOT in a Model 52 auto-loader. It is a moot point anyway. Since HBWCs are swaged and made of very soft lead and are designed to obturate and fill the bore, then if it gets a slightly squeezed down during the loading process it won't matter.

[Outpost75]

Being a bullseye pistol competitor, I've been using 148 gr. HBWC bullets for a long time. In bullseye circles, "The Load" is 2.7 gr. WST or 2.8 BE and a light crimp. As accurate as you can possibly get. I've never heard of using unsized cases. You might get away with that in some revolvers and light loads, but definitely NOT in a Model 52 auto-loader. It is a moot point anyway. Since HBWCs are swaged and made of very soft lead and are designed to obturate and fill the bore, then if it gets a slightly squeezed down during the loading process it won't matter.

In the Colt .38 Super National Match converted to .38 AMU, and in the later .38 Special Gold Cup we loaded unsized cases with Remington or Winchester factory lead bullets of .360" diameter, and 3 grains of 452AA. The final stage on the Phelps loading machine was a full-length cartridge sizer and profile die which gently sized the loaded rounds and applied a taper-crimp.

The Redding Profile crimp die works on exactly the same principle and achieves the same result. Using once-fired brass it was routine for a series of five consecutive ten-shot groups firing a Colt barrel held in a firing fixture, and return-to-battery rest, to average under 2 inches at 50 yards with the best individual groups under 1-1/2" and none larger than 2-1/2 inches.

[USSR]

I've got a Ransom Rest, and my dream is to do the ultimate .38 Special HBWC test. I've got every HBWC known to man, as well as one I cast myself. I've got WC brass (Remington, Winchester and Federal). I've got Bullseye, WST and 452AA powder, along with 2 S&W Model 14's just dying to burn some powder. I just need to define the parameters and find the time.

Don

[ABJ]

Not intending to hijack this thread but to Outpost. Do you recall the twist rate of the AMU and the 38 sp. barrels? I have a commercial colt conversion and a Travis Strahan PPC rebuild. I haven't checked the twist of either one yet but the PPC gun with 8 inch barrel with hold a six inch swinger at 109 yds (100 meters) with wadcutters with 3.5 unique.

USSR, For my own HBWC I cast them in pure lead and size and lube one lube groove then swedge them into hollow base. They come out at .358. That solved the dry lube leading once and for all.

I apologize to the OP for side stepping but thought some usefull info might be learned. The 38 special is such an interesting loading platform from Bullseye shooting, plinking and some defensive uses.
Tony

[tazman]

I've got a Ransom Rest, and my dream is to do the ultimate .38 Special HBWC test. I've got every HBWC known to man, as well as one I cast myself. I've got WC brass (Remington, Winchester and Federal). I've got Bullseye, WST and 452AA powder, along with 2 S&W Model 14's just dying to burn some powder. I just need to define the parameters and find the time.

Don

I would love to see the results of that test.
I wish you were closer. I would come and help you do it.

[Martin Luber]

Having fooled extensively with a 52, and another 32s&w long, l can tell you that depending on the sizer die, if the shell diameter is too small, the soft HBWC is swaged down during seating. Also brass matters. The old Remington wadcutter brass has 2 lines at midspan. It allows a 23/64 drill shank ( and hence a wc boolet) to seat deeper without crushing in the skirt. Many other brands are more like a +p design and with a cast wc, seated deep for the 52, you get a case bulge at the boolet base. Use the drill bit to sortvthem out.

Thats why the unsized cases work for 50 yard slow fire, and they do feed ok.

I use the Hornady profile crimp die as a sizer for 32s

Since the chamber isn't supported, you can't hotrod it.

Good luck

[USSR]

I would love to see the results of that test.
I wish you were closer. I would come and help you do it.

And you would be most welcome, tazman.

Don

[Outpost75]

Not intending to hijack this thread but to Outpost. Do you recall the twist rate of the AMU and the 38 sp. barrels? ...I haven't checked the twist of either one yet but the PPC gun with 8 inch barrel with hold a six inch swinger at 109 yds (100 meters) with wadcutters with 3.5 unique. Tony

Both the .38 Super barrels which were rechambered to AMU, and the .38 Special Colt Gold Cup barrels were one turn in 16 inches. The reworked .38 Super National Match pistols were locked breech the same as the .38 Super Auto, used the standard 16-pound recoil spring and would handle "full-charge" wadcutter ammunition with a 146-grain DEWC bullet and 3.2 to 3.5 grains of Bullseye or 452AA. Factory-loaded .38 AMU was loaded a wee bit hotter than .38 Special HBWC to cycle the locked breech guns. Later .38 Special Colt Gold Cups had no locking lugs on the barrel and were straight blow-back, with the factory recoil spring being 14 pounds.

If you want to have some fun, set up a PPC gun with one turn in ten-inch twist and use full-charge DEWCs with 3.5 grains of Bullseye or 3.9 grains of WST or 452AA. Set up your aiming point eight feet above the target backer, then scope the gun, shoot groups at 200 yards and watch the bullets fly downrange with one of the big Unertl team spotting scopes like we used for 1000 yards at Camp Perry. The popular wisdom is that wadcutters go unstable beyond about 50 yards. With powder puff loads and slow twists they do, but a talented CBA guy in Alaska using his Bob Day PPC gun with scope taught us all a lesson, published his results in The Fouling Shot, with pictures to prove it!

I was mightily impressed!

[ABJ]

Thanks Outpost, I think the Strahan gun is a 10 twist with his "Mascott II" irons. I pretty sure there is enough travel in the rear to go way past 100. It was built on a model 10 and uses a coil spring in double action only. sweetest trigger I have ever pulled. The Colt was built from a 38 super, just not sure what barrel he used.
As a side note, Travis was an AMU armorer and was in on the 38 AMU, just not sure to what extent. Fast twist barrels and wadcutters is a whole new world and I'm loving every min of it. Unfortunately he passed away a couple years ago and took a lot of knowledge with him.
Thanks for info,
Tony

[Billwnr]

Just bought a Caldwell chronograph and will find out tomorrow morning how close the book velocities are to actual velocities. Years ago using chronographs I learned not to use them if I couldn't stand the answer. I'm curious what the velocities are and what the sd's are.

[Outpost75]

The Saeco #348 DEWC with 3.5 grains of Bullseye in my 1943 Colt Official Police Heavy barrel with 0.003" barrel-cylinder gap gives 900 fps and shoots X-ring groups at 25 yards. My 6-inch 1941 S&W Hand Ejector .38 Special with similar tight barrel-cylinder gap does the same.

[Martin Luber]

The BBDEWC, l think is a Lyman, casts slightly small, and is good in the model 52.

[oldsalt444]

Too bad we can't get Remington or Winchester HBWCs anymore. They are excellent bullets. 452AA has also gone the way of the do-do bird. It was replaced by WST.

[USSR]

Too bad we can't get Remington or Winchester HBWCs anymore. They are excellent bullets.

Yep, I got one of the last cases of 2,000 Remingtons before they quit selling them.

Don

[Billwnr]

452AA was a dirty powder. The replacements burn lots cleaner. Hodgdon's powders are even cleaner. I'll be shooting Clays and HBWC's this morning.

[Billwnr]

Shot this morning and chronographed the loads. I expected the Remington HBWC's to shoot tighter groups as they came highly recommended. The Hornady HBWC's shot smaller groups. Both groups had a tight range of high and low velocities. I think the sd was 10 for both HBWC's.

[tazman]

Shot this morning and chronographed the loads. I expected the Remington HBWC's to shoot tighter groups as they came highly recommended. The Hornady HBWC's shot smaller groups. Both groups had a tight range of high and low velocities. I think the sd was 10 for both HBWC's.

And the group sizes were? With what gun?

[Martin Luber]

For Model 52s, try running the hbwc through a 358 sizer then see what you get for performance.

[Billwnr]

For Model 52s, try running the hbwc through a 358 sizer then see what you get for performance.

My gun is a Dan Wesson revolver, not a Model 52. And I am using a .358 sizer based off the diameters of my cylinder throats.

[USSR]

My gun is a Dan Wesson revolver, not a Model 52. And I am using a .358 sizer based off the diameters of my cylinder throats.

Why are you sizing your commercial HBWC's? One of the reasons the Remingtons are noted for their accuracy is their large size. Leave them as bought.

Don

[Billwnr]

Why are you sizing your commercial HBWC's? One of the reasons the Remingtons are noted for their accuracy is their large size. Leave them as bought.

Don

I'm not sizing the HBWCs. The 358429 bullets are the ones being sized. I can see from one of the above posts where you assumed I was sizing the commercial wadcutters. I gave the gun a good exterior scrubbing after returning. I'll also clean the exterior again before I go out again. I had "spitting" and that was probably from dirt causing it to be out of time.

[Martin Luber]

For Model 52s, try running the hbwc through a 358 sizer then see what you get for performance.

Sorry, didn't finish my thought: run them nose first into the sizer, this allows the punch to square up the base of the skirt, true up the body, and give uniform size.

This is for a 52 with a .355 groove, not revolver sorry.

[Billwnr]

Sorry, didn't finish my thought: run them nose first into the sizer, this allows the punch to square up the base of the skirt, true up the body, and give uniform size.

This is for a 52 with a .355 groove, not revolver sorry.

Interesting thought about trueing up the bases. I like that. Thanks.

[Outpost75]

In experiments I did in 1984, loading Saeco #348 double-end wadcutters in full-charge loads with 3.5 grains of Bullseye, firing them at 50 yards in a heavy 16-inch twist test barrel on BSA-Cadet action with .38 AMU chamber, 10X Unertl scope, orienting the bullets with the sprue-cutoff forward, so that the base was perfectly formed with no defects, reduced average group size by 1/2". Comparing series of ten consecutive ten-shot groups, alternating targets fired with sprue forward, sprue back on adjacent targets and firing all 200 rounds in the space of 2 hours, average extreme spread of all twenty ten-shot groups was about 2 inches at 50 yards. The best groups were just over an inch, and none of the series was over 3 inches.

Bullets were cast of indoor range backstop scrap from the FBI Academy range, and test firing was from machine rest in a 50-yard tube. Bullets were loaded as-cast and unsized at .360", lubricated with industrial-grade Johnson Glo-Coat floor wax, in once-fired, unsized Winchester .38 Special cases with WSP primers, assembled on a Phelps machine with profile FL cartridge sizer and taper-crimp die similar to the Redding Profile crimp on the last stage. Velocity from the 20-inch test barrel was 1080 fps.

[Billwnr]

Checked my box of HBWC's. The one in front of my face is Hornady but I wasn't using those. I shot the Speer HBWC's instead. Did mike them and the Speer comes out .356/357 and the Remington came out .358/.360. The noses were the smaller diameter and the bases were the larger. I have not broken out the targets to measure the groups yet but will do so this weekend.

[Martin Luber]

Outpost, that is awesome. Was there a reason not to resize? ie was the groove oversize? Glo-coat...anything similar to it available now?
Thanks

[Outpost75]

Outpost, that is awesome. Was there a reason not to resize? ie was the groove oversize? Glo-coat...anything similar to it available now?
Thanks

Johnson 700 wax-draw is similar to Glo-Coat and can be mixed up to 4 parts of water if you want to buy it in 55 gallon drums for flood coating in industrial use as Winchester, Lake City and Starline do.

I don't size bullets, but load .360-.361" as-cast in order that bullets will fit snugly and not drop down against powder in UNSIZED, decapped cases. Only sizing is done AFTER seating while taper-crimping with Redding Profile Crimper! Depending upon brass thickness bullet will be sized gently by compression inside the case. The Redding die does a better job of this than the Lee Factory Crimp die which reduces rounds too small. Shooting heavy test barrel on slave action in return to battery rest, or on sandbags with 10X Unertl scope in 50-yard tube best loads should average under 2 inches for 100 consecutive rounds fired in ten-shot groups. A good S&W 52, Hammerli 240 or a really good PPC revolver properly fitted up will do likewise.

[Martin Luber]

The 52 didn't like the H&G#50 which casts out around .360 but the Lyman DEWC ( forget the No.) casts smaller and the 52 likes that.
Thanks

[Outpost75]

The 52 didn't like the H&G#50 which casts out around .360 but the Lyman DEWC ( forget the No.) casts smaller and the 52 likes that.
Thanks

Using the Redding Profile Crimp the .360" out of round bullet is reduced in diameter, trued round and compressed inside the case as the cartridges are profiled to 0.001" less than SAAMI Max. Cartridge, so the H&G50 would be no issue.

[oldsalt444]

The 52 didn't like the H&G#50 which casts out around .360 but the Lyman DEWC ( forget the No.) casts smaller and the 52 likes that.
Thanks

That makes sense since 52 barrels are .355. I size to .357 and it works well in my 52. My revolvers like .359.

[Billwnr]

I'm not sizing the HBWCs. The 358429 bullets are the ones being sized. I can see from one of the above posts where you assumed I was sizing the commercial wadcutters. I gave the gun a good exterior scrubbing after returning. I'll also clean the exterior again before I go out again. I had "spitting" and that was probably from dirt causing it to be out of time.

Had a chance this morning to blow the gun out with my air compressor. I cleaned it good after returning from the range. Stuck some ammo in and the cylinder still dragged. Decided to see what would happen if I seated the bullets deeper. I was longer than what Lyman used in their cast bullet book but the ammo fit in my cylinder. After blowing the gun out I looked at the cylinder closely and saw some grease/cleaning fluid/gunk on the inside rim of the cylinder. Took a q-tip to that and the ammo still dragged. Seated the bullets down to 1.530 which was the length in the Lyman book and the cylinder dragging finally wasn't there. So a combo of gooood cleaning and deeper bullet seating took care of the problem. I'll have to re-do my testing as I think the cylinder dragging and possible dirt negated the previous results. Looks like sometime next week will be the re-do.